Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Non Harry Potter Archives

Immigration and immigrants



 
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old September 7th, 2010, 4:27 pm
silmarilien  Female.gif silmarilien is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 3994 days
Location: Maracaibo, Venezuela
Age: 31
Posts: 108
Re: Immigration and immigrants

@ Voldemort's 8th Horcrux, I am sorry your mom feels that way about the language and culture. She may have never wanted to leave in the first place.

I actually agree with you in regards to citizenship. However there are different levels of migration and some immigrants actually move to another country for a year or two fully intending to go back to their home country, just to learn the language. I have a friend living in Hungary and after a year there she is fluent, she will be coming back in December.

I keep thinking that it is important to embrace the culture of the new country if you're moving, eat the food, listen to the music, get to know the history that way people can truly appreciate where they are. I agree with you 100%, I don't know what else does the citizenship test there entails but I know that if they put up a history test here Venezuelans would fail at it! lol... I bet the people studying for the test would know more than people on the streets. But people's desire to remain uneducated is a whole different story lol!


__________________
what came first the phoenix or the flame?
Sponsored Links
  #42  
Old September 28th, 2010, 5:22 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 5614 days
Posts: 9,409
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by silmarilien View Post
I keep thinking that it is important to embrace the culture of the new country if you're moving, eat the food, listen to the music, get to know the history that way people can truly appreciate where they are. I agree with you 100%, I don't know what else does the citizenship test there entails but I know that if they put up a history test here Venezuelans would fail at it! lol... I bet the people studying for the test would know more than people on the streets. But people's desire to remain uneducated is a whole different story lol!
*nods*

It has been interesting in seeing how immigration has been affecting the EU, considering the Schengen agreement. This is especially so considering that for the longest time since its formation, the US has been seen as an “experiment” of sorts, and the supposedly openness of its own immigration policy has been a part of US culture. (“Give me your tired, your poor…”) And for reasons that are related to economics and politics Mexico has been treated very differently.

But are things so different elsewhere?

For most of the countries in Europe, tolerance and acceptance was always supposed to be in consideration, even taken to absurd levels. (Child brides in Greece, for the sake of cultural sensitivity? Really?)
We already have a thread dedicated to the Roma’s treatment in France, but we know that similar treatment has occurred in Germany, Denmark, and Italy.
We already have a thread dedicated to burqa bans and muslim veils. But that’s just beating around the bush, hinting at what no one wants to admit.

The treatment of muslims in Europe. (Which probably would encapsulate the other threads), however, this is in regards to those that immigrate from other countries.

I personally prefer a more open dialogue, but being American I am accustomed to having racism being thrown in my face. Sometimes it’s humorous, sometimes not so much. (oh man, Archie Bunker anyone?) At any rate, it’s out in the open.

In Europe, it’s not so much “racism” and I don’t think it would be referred to as cultural racism either?

Hmm…another tack.

In Japan, I don’t believe there are laws regarding racial discrimination. (An acquaintance of mine was denied entry to a club because he wasn’t Japanese. Not because he couldn't speak the language, but simply because he isn’t Japanese)

In India, there is supposedly tolerance for all walks of culture, but there is a strong political movement favoring “Hindu-ness” and is vehemently opposed (violently so in some cases) to other beliefs. (Particularly Sikh and Islam…the violence has been amazingly cruel. Both of which again came from other countries)

And there is an incredible amount of intolerance when it comes to criticism of religious subjects.
Except Christianity.
Generally speaking, Christianity has taken a beating in Europe. Despite this, it still flourishes.
But criticize Judaism, or Islam, and all Hell breaks loose.

But I digress.

There have been inroads against immigration in Sweden recently with the Sweden Democrats winning some seats for the first time.
He described Muslim population growth as the greatest foreign threat to the country since World War II.

Harsh I suppose, but a sentiment that may be growing.

The author of the book mentioned in the link, “Germany Does Away With Itself” is rather controversial.


__________________
All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.

---Eddie Scrap-Iron Dupris (Million Dollar Baby)
  #43  
Old September 28th, 2010, 6:02 pm
Trixa  Female.gif Trixa is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 3720 days
Age: 27
Posts: 511
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post

There have been inroads against immigration in Sweden recently with the Sweden Democrats winning some seats for the first time.
He described Muslim population growth as the greatest foreign threat to the country since World War II.

Harsh I suppose,
And ignorant, stereotypying and downright silly at times. I personally can't take anything Åkesson or others like him in other countries say seriously because they usually have no real facts to present and what they say is very far from the truth. Right Wing extremists may seem as though they are concerned with politics and the economy and want to improve the lives of their countries' citizens but my opinion is that they simply have certain prejudices and apply them whenever and wherever they see fit. Facts don't actually interest them. They claim immigrants commit most of the crimes in the country and therefore their conclusion is that immigrants must be malicious and are naturally aggressive. The real reasons behind the crimes are much more complex though and it has to do with poverty, unemployment and other types of frustration. People who aren't immigrants can also commit crimes because of this. The point is that I don't believe they are interested in finding th best solution to the country's problems as politicians should be. They just want the opportunity to act on their hatred. Also relevant may be the fact that, according to statistics, those who vote for them are low educated and unemployed.



Last edited by Trixa; September 28th, 2010 at 6:20 pm.
  #44  
Old September 29th, 2010, 7:40 am
Alastor's Avatar
Alastor  Male.gif Alastor is offline
Keeper of the Mignon Eggs
 
Joined: 5418 days
Posts: 6,446
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Xenophobia and racism have been growing problems all over western Europe for a considerable time already. Remember Jörg Haider and Jean-Marie Le Pen, anyone?

In Sweden's neighbour Finland a party named the True Finns based on populism and intolerance is steadily climbing in the polls. And the minister in charge of immigration integration has been openly threatened with murder on Facebook.


__________________



  #45  
Old September 29th, 2010, 3:49 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 5614 days
Posts: 9,409
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Growing problems? Why are they growing?

Where I don't agree with all that was said in the link, the inference that there are those that live off of state-provided welfare while denying the legitimacy of the country providing it seems too firmly believed in to simply brush off as hyperbole.
If the link is correct, then half of Germany believes that muslims are a growing "problem" in that country.

I would like my great grandchildren 100 years from now still to be able to live in Germany — if they want to. I do not desire that the land of my grandchildren and great-grandchildren be largely Muslim, that Turkish and Arabic be spoken in broad swathes, that women should wear headscarves, and the daily rhythm be determined by the prayer call of the muezzin. If I want to experience that, I can book a vacation to the Orient.

Is this racist?
Or simply a call for cultural preservation?

I frankly admit, after the Taliban-ruled Afghan government demolished the Buddhas of Bamyan I went very much "right" of the issue of cultural preservation. Difficult to respect a particular religion when it disrespects other religious icons in its own country.


__________________
All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.

---Eddie Scrap-Iron Dupris (Million Dollar Baby)
  #46  
Old September 29th, 2010, 4:07 pm
Lemongrass  Female.gif Lemongrass is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 2721 days
Posts: 173
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
I frankly admit, after the Taliban-ruled Afghan government demolished the Buddhas of Bamyan I went very much "right" of the issue of cultural preservation. Difficult to respect a particular religion when it disrespects other religious icons in its own country.
That is a rather vast generalisation wouldn't you say. Looking to the Taliban for your view of a religion that consists of more than a billion adherents, doesn't really give you much to go by, especially since many Taliban views are not within the mainstream of Islam. Also a religion cannot disrespect someone or something, people can. Peoples actions do not always reflect the religious doctrine they claim to adhere to.


__________________
Half agony, half hope...

I love a sunburnt country...
  #47  
Old September 29th, 2010, 4:42 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 5614 days
Posts: 9,409
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemongrass View Post
That is a rather vast generalisation wouldn't you say. Looking to the Taliban for your view of a religion that consists of more than a billion adherents, doesn't really give you much to go by, especially since many Taliban views are not within the mainstream of Islam. Also a religion cannot disrespect someone or something, people can. Peoples actions do not always reflect the religious doctrine they claim to adhere to.
It's a bit off-topic but...

And therein lies the problem I have with Islam; no central authority. And that's why it's easy to generalize.

Where was Islam when the Taliban accomplished the destruction? They destroyed other religious icons in that country, but cried foul over cartoon depictions in another that has zero connection to them.

But you're correct, it's people that are the problem. And when people claim that such a harsh interpretation of Sharia Law is the way to go, while other Muslims don't say a word that such an interpretation may be a bit too destructive, what's a person left to think?

And therein lies a connection to the topic...and why such a negative view of Islam appears to be increasing. (and that's discounting the views of the US tragedy of Sept 11th)

Philosophically speaking, Christianity had its growing pains. And to this day still gets knocked about.
When will Islam grow? With Sufism, I still have hope.


__________________
All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.

---Eddie Scrap-Iron Dupris (Million Dollar Baby)
  #48  
Old September 29th, 2010, 5:05 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4227 days
Location: England
Age: 49
Posts: 3,294
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
It's a bit off-topic but...

And therein lies the problem I have with Islam; no central authority. And that's why it's easy to generalize.
Couldn't you say the same about Christianity, though? There's a world of difference between the teachings of the Pope, the Quakers and the Westboro Baptist Church.


  #49  
Old September 29th, 2010, 5:36 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 5614 days
Posts: 9,409
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Couldn't you say the same about Christianity, though? There's a world of difference between the teachings of the Pope, the Quakers and the Westboro Baptist Church.
Ah yes. But we are speaking of a central authority vs what amounts to a cult.
Where is the central authority for Islam?

Regardless, doesn't Christianity as a whole still get beaten up? Christians take it on the chin constantly...why can't Islam?

Political Correctness is Silencing an Important Debate

Should those Turkish immigrants fortunate enough to have exemplary careers not start exerting a bit of influence over their fellow immigrants and their neighborhoods, so that the Koran shows its gentler, more charitable face? Isn't it time for them to stand up and show their backing for plurality and freedom of expression?

But then, they didn't...

That certainly wasn't the case recently when the Migration Board, an umbrella group for immigrant organizations in Berlin, spoke out successfully against a reading by Sarrazin during the International Literature Festival in the German capital. Bernd Scherer, who heads the House of World Cultures, the venue of the festival, buckled under the pressure and cancelled the event. Now the reading is to be held at another venue on Friday -- under police protection.


__________________
All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.

---Eddie Scrap-Iron Dupris (Million Dollar Baby)
  #50  
Old September 29th, 2010, 8:16 pm
Trixa  Female.gif Trixa is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 3720 days
Age: 27
Posts: 511
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Is this racist?
Or simply a call for cultural preservation?
I don't have any problem with people discussing immigration and the impact it has on different countries but I think people are exaggerating. I don't believe Muslims are out to take over the world and I certainly haven't heard of any Muslim trying to force Western women to wear veils or burqas or whatever. So when people ignore facts and look for someone to blame for the country's problems then they are being xenophobic and even racist. To regard a few incidents as the rule when it comes to Islam or any religion is to be prejudiced against said religion and seek confirmation for your racism in everything you hear. I agree with you that Muslims should be much harsher towards fundamentalists and terrorists and that they should definitely speak against such things honour murders and protest against their legalization. I agree that we don't hear much about this but I'm still reluctant to see Islam as a problem for Western countries. I think we're also ignoring the impact Western nations, especially the US, have had on other countries and their culture and customs. Many Asian countries changed some of their customs simply because Westerners didn't approve of them. So we definitely influence their countries and it's not entirely fair to play the innocent victim here, IMO.


  #51  
Old September 29th, 2010, 8:48 pm
Yoana's Avatar
Yoana  Female.gif Yoana is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 4341 days
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 35
Posts: 6,428
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
I would like my great grandchildren 100 years from now still to be able to live in Germany — if they want to. I do not desire that the land of my grandchildren and great-grandchildren be largely Muslim, that Turkish and Arabic be spoken in broad swathes, that women should wear headscarves, and the daily rhythm be determined by the prayer call of the muezzin. If I want to experience that, I can book a vacation to the Orient.

Is this racist?
Or simply a call for cultural preservation?
In my opinion, in our world as it is now, believing in cultural preservation is, to put it as nicely as I can, extremely naive. And I wonder what's the point of it anyway. Cultures have evolved, changed, mingled and died ever since cultures exist. It's only a natural process. Unless this man wants to argue that Germany today is the same Germany, culture-wise, as it was 100 years ago (and this is a very, very short time in the context of human history).


  #52  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:58 am
Lunatic  Male.gif Lunatic is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3835 days
Location: Ravenclaw Common Room
Posts: 741
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
In my opinion, in our world as it is now, believing in cultural preservation is, to put it as nicely as I can, extremely naive. And I wonder what's the point of it anyway. Cultures have evolved, changed, mingled and died ever since cultures exist. It's only a natural process. Unless this man wants to argue that Germany today is the same Germany, culture-wise, as it was 100 years ago (and this is a very, very short time in the context of human history).
The truth of the matter is that it matters. Jews could have given up two thousand years ago, melted into whatever population they found themselves in and disappeared from history. The Scots, Irish, and Welsh could have become English---but they didn't and the world is a richer place for it. I've worked closely with American Indians and I find myself respecting and supporting their attempts to hold what's left of their cultures to do it.

Historically it's made a difference. In doing so they've been called the historical equivilent of 'racist and xenophobic' because they didn't want to see their culture destroyed. I say (with some exceptions) good for them.

Is it that different if the threat is a demographic invasion rather then a military invasion from a population that actively resists intergration and which in some cases actively talks about taking over in a couple generations through that demography?

The answer is both yes and no.


  #53  
Old September 30th, 2010, 10:39 am
Trixa  Female.gif Trixa is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 3720 days
Age: 27
Posts: 511
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatic View Post
Is it that different if the threat is a demographic invasion rather then a military invasion from a population that actively resists intergration and which in some cases actively talks about taking over in a couple generations through that demography?
How are they resisting integration? Most of them speak the language of the country they live in even if it is in most cases very different from their own. Relatively few of them wear any sort of head coverings and some are not religious at all. They respect the laws of the country they live in and don't try to impose their values and beliefs on others (at least, in most cases they don't). It's not their fault the West claimed it has religious tolerance and now wants to take it all back. So what are we supposed to do about these people? Are we suppposed to just stop non Western immigration as some of these parties suggest? I'm seriously asking.


  #54  
Old September 30th, 2010, 4:34 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 5614 days
Posts: 9,409
Re: Immigration and immigrants

From that author linked above:

"Integration requires effort from those that are to be integrated. I will not show respect for anyone that is not making that effort. I do not have to acknowledge anyone who lives by welfare, denies the legitimacy of the very state that provides that welfare, refuses to care for the education of his children and constantly produces new little headscarf-girls."

He has also said regarding Islam, “No other religion in Europe makes so many demands. No immigrant group other than Muslims is so strongly connected with claims on the welfare state and crime. No group emphasizes their differences so strongly in public, especially through women’s clothing. In no other religion is the transition to violence, dictatorship and terrorism so fluid.”


This man has a lot of support and if I follow the reasoning as to why he does, it's kind of shocking.


__________________
All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.

---Eddie Scrap-Iron Dupris (Million Dollar Baby)
  #55  
Old September 30th, 2010, 4:45 pm
Hes's Avatar
Hes  Female.gif Hes is offline
Embroidered by imaginatio
 
Joined: 4715 days
Location: One second out of sync
Age: 36
Posts: 5,979
Re: Immigration and immigrants

There is a lot of fear politics happening in Europe, add the remnants of the economical crisis and people are easy targets for populists with an islamophobia, I am seeing that in my own country (the Netherlands).

The Netherlands is about to toughen their immigration policy (depends on if the proposals of the proposed government get through the Christian Democrats party congress) and I only heard about it like 30 minutes ago when it was announced so particulars are still vague. But it seems that the goal is to cut back all immigration (asylum seekers cut back goal 30%) and of course (not surprising when you know Geert Wilders' party will give the needed support to a rightish wing minority government) especially non western immigration (goal 50%).


__________________


"I'm a leaf on the wind...watch how I soar."

"Chickens come home to roost."

"It's okay...I-I'm a leaf on the wind."


Loveliest Care Bear. Expert Sig Changer

Last edited by Hes; September 30th, 2010 at 4:58 pm.
  #56  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:17 pm
Overdose  Undisclosed.gif Overdose is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 4522 days
Posts: 1,421
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Migration is good and bad depending on who you are.
Overall a strong migrant workforce is good for a market economy since migrants are statistically more likely to open a small business or generally be enterprising. It takes rather a lot of 'get-up-and-go' after all to leave the country of your origin.

On the other hand it isn't such great news for people employed in service or similar labour since it creates a bigger pool of competition and allows employers to lower their wages.


__________________


i'm in slytherin!
  #57  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:19 pm
Lunatic  Male.gif Lunatic is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3835 days
Location: Ravenclaw Common Room
Posts: 741
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
How are they resisting integration? Most of them speak the language of the country they live in even if it is in most cases very different from their own. Relatively few of them wear any sort of head coverings and some are not religious at all. They respect the laws of the country they live in and don't try to impose their values and beliefs on others (at least, in most cases they don't). It's not their fault the West claimed it has religious tolerance and now wants to take it all back. So what are we supposed to do about these people? Are we suppposed to just stop non Western immigration as some of these parties suggest? I'm seriously asking.
First of all, I like that you're seriously asking. There has been a lot of shouting on both sides of these debates.

Quote:
They respect the laws of the country they live in and don't try to impose their values and beliefs on others (at least, in most cases they don't).
Then I ask, you how come writers or artists who are critical of Islam live under threats of death or, like Theo Van Gogh, murdered. How come whole communities riot when they don't like a cartoon. That is not lawful and while you may say the former is the work of radicals, the latter is not.

The fact that there is a fear of violence whenever someone is critical of Islam makes this different and undermines free speech and has a dampening effect.

The fact that such criticism, even if fair and evenhanded and restrained, is automatically called 'hate speech is some quarters is also a problem, but at least we can talk about it.

So basically one of my criticisms of this group of Immigrants is that they are not respecting the law in this area and it is cheapening the free speech rights of all and in so doing, they are imposing their beliefs and values on others.

If they do that when their numbers are small, what will they do when their numbers grow. How much free expression will be curtailed?

Quote:
t's not their fault the West claimed it has religious tolerance and now wants to take it all back?
I think the one unwritten caveat in religious tolerance is that no group seeks to take over and then oppose their values. When you have comments like this, you can read in a desire to impose their values (you don't have to) which is troubling.

But basically, there is a fear that 2000 years of western culture will be swept under. Whether you believe it is true or not, deal with the fears behind it in ways other then yelling 'racist'.

Quote:
So what are we supposed to do about these people? Are we suppposed to just stop non Western immigration as some of these parties suggest?
Strengthen institutional efforts to assimulate immigrants. Take a hardline stance on things like violence against women and honor murders. Deport them if they show no respect for the law. Also, start train Imans in European Universites and actively discourage Wahhabism in favor of more tolerants strains of Islam, like Sufism. Turn down any Saudi money for anything having to do with religion.

As for stopping non western immigration, the answer is no. But immigrants should be willing to accept that they will become part of the larger society to a degree. For example, look at Fleur on these boards. She is proudly Vietnamese-French. On some level I suspect she knows and accepts that her grandchildren or great grandchildren will be more French then Vietnamese. She accepts that.
That should be the litmus test.
It is arguable as to whether most immigrants from Muslim societies feel that way.

All the Best,

Lunatic


  #58  
Old September 30th, 2010, 9:15 pm
Trixa  Female.gif Trixa is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 3720 days
Age: 27
Posts: 511
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatic View Post

Then I ask, you how come writers or artists who are critical of Islam live under threats of death or, like Theo Van Gogh, murdered. How come whole communities riot when they don't like a cartoon. That is not lawful and while you may say the former is the work of radicals, the latter is not.
I agree that it's unacceptable for them to be so sensitive but the ones making the threats are usually people who live in Islamic countries and not Muslim immigrants, at least this has been the case here. Also, while I believe people should have the right to say what they want I question those who get their kicks out of ridiculizing people's religious beliefs.

Quote:
When you have comments like this, you can read in a desire to impose their values (you don't have to) which is troubling.
I don't know who that person is so I don't know how to comment on this. It just seems rather silly and amusing in a tragic way.

Quote:
But basically, there is a fear that 2000 years of western culture will be swept under. Whether you believe it is true or not, deal with the fears behind it in ways other then yelling 'racist'.
Unfortunately most people who are against Islam are also against pretty much anyone who isn't "one of them" as in born in the same country they were born in. The intolerance doesn't stop with Islam. These people are often overlooking many facts and take some incidents and exaggerate them in order to prove their point. They are not looking for a serious discussion or a solution which benefits everyone. They just want to get rid of certain ethnic groups they don't believe worthy of living in their country.
Quote:
Strengthen institutional efforts to assimulate immigrants.
I think you mean integration here. Assimilation has a negative connotation and is a term used only by right wing extremists (at least where I live though it might be different somewhere else). Integration is quite enough in order for everyone to get along and respect each other. I mean as long as people pay thjeir taxes and obey the law does it matter whether they celebrate Christmas or Hanukkah? There's no point in eradicating people's cultural identity just because they come to your country, IMO.
Quote:
Take a hardline stance on things like violence against women and honor murders.
Honour murderers are already put in jail so their actions are certainly deemed unacceptable (and rightfully so of course). As for violence against women in general, the West has its share of rapists and wife abusers.
Quote:
It is arguable as to whether most immigrants from Muslim societies feel that way.
I don't know but I believe that if someone decides to move to a country completely different from their own, learn the language, make friends and live there then they must have some respect for the country's culture and people. At least that's how I feel (though my culture isn't much different from the culture here).



Last edited by Trixa; September 30th, 2010 at 9:35 pm.
  #59  
Old October 1st, 2010, 12:43 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4227 days
Location: England
Age: 49
Posts: 3,294
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
Migration is good and bad depending on who you are.
Overall a strong migrant workforce is good for a market economy since migrants are statistically more likely to open a small business or generally be enterprising. It takes rather a lot of 'get-up-and-go' after all to leave the country of your origin.

On the other hand it isn't such great news for people employed in service or similar labour since it creates a bigger pool of competition and allows employers to lower their wages.
I think that's a good summary.

It's difficult to talk about a "right-wing" attitude or a "left-wing" attitude to immigration as, at least in a UK context, many business leaders and other people who are economically conservative welcome immigration. I've heard many Conservatives argue that immigrant Labour is necessary because the cushy welfare state and has made indigenous Brits too lazy and complacent to take the jobs available or to work hard enough, if they do take them and that the minimum wage has priced a lot of British workers out of the market. (Anybody who knows my political leanings will know what I think of that argument, but at least these Conservatives are not putting the blame for out problems at immigrants' doors).

And many immigrants themselves, especially those who come from more religious cultures than ours, are more socially conservative than the indigenous population.

Then, on the other hand, you get people with left-wing political views who want "British jobs for British workers" and who see immigrants, especially those from the newer EU countries, as a particular threat to working-class employment and as a wage depressant. Indeed, the so-called "far-right" parties tend to have radically socialist policies on everything other than equal opportunities for women, ethnic minorities and gays.

And yet, traditionally, there is a stereotype (which is often true at a grassroots level) that Conservatives are cautious about immigration and liberals are all for it.

As you know, in the UK at the moment, many business leaders are also unhappy about the Conservatives' cap on the number of skilled migrants allowed into the country from outside the EU - if businesses could find employees with the requisite skills in the UK or elsewhere in the EU, they'd take them, but if they can't, it seems senseless to tie their hands and stop them hiring the staff they need. For decades, we've relied on immigrants, especially those from the Commonwealth, to do jobs that British people can't or won't do. In particular, we don't seem to have enough engineers or some types of health professionals to meet our own needs. It seems to me to make much more sense to tinker with the education system to ensure that we are training British people in the skills we need before we start restricting skilled migrants.


  #60  
Old October 1st, 2010, 1:41 pm
Lunatic  Male.gif Lunatic is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3835 days
Location: Ravenclaw Common Room
Posts: 741
Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
I agree that it's unacceptable for them to be so sensitive but the ones making the threats are usually people who live in Islamic countries and not Muslim immigrants, at least this has been the case here.
There were death threats. There have been people killed in Europe for criticizing Islam. It may not be where you are (don't know where that is) but it is closer then you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
Also, while I believe people should have the right to say what they want I question those who get their kicks out of ridiculizing people's religious beliefs.
I agree that people should not 'get their kicks' as you put it. However, there is a huge difference from calling someone a 'sand N-word' and saying 'I don't like how this culture treats women' or 'this culture is too materialistic' or 'these people are intolerant of criticism' and following it up with some evidence.

The former is wrong. The latter is fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
I don't know who that person is so I don't know how to comment on this. It just seems rather silly and amusing in a tragic way.
I agree his comments are silly but not amusing. However, he is the head of state of Libya, a major Arab nation. While I don't like it, I think it reflects what a lot of people are thinking, in both Europe and the Arab world.

It's also backed by historical examples, whether it be a growing German Population on the borders of the Roman Empire or European Colonists in the Americas having eight babies each while the natives are dying of smallpox. Demography has opened the door to conquest.

I think this is what a lot of the 'anti' people see that is fundamentally different from this wave of immigration then previous waves. It's one thing for people to move into a society, to intermarry and lay down roots. It is another thing to move in, not interact and segregate yourself and talk openly of imposing your values on the larger society when there are more of 'us' than them.

Sure both things are happening. But I think a lot of 'anti' people see too much of the latter and that comment was but one example of why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
Unfortunately most people who are against Islam are also against pretty much anyone who isn't "one of them" as in born in the same country they were born in. The intolerance doesn't stop with Islam. These people are often overlooking many facts and take some incidents and exaggerate them in order to prove their point. They are not looking for a serious discussion or a solution which benefits everyone. They just want to get rid of certain ethnic groups they don't believe worthy of living in their country.
I hate to say this but I think you are generalizing way too much here. Yes there are some who fit what you describe. However, you're talking to an Obama voter who has lived in the Japan, is dating inter racially, and who thinks global warming and corporate greed are the two most serious issues of our time.

I don't think I am a racist, xenophobe, or suffer from an irrational fear of anyone, all generalized terms that have been used to describe people on my side of the argument, including by the 'fair and balanced' moderators on this boards.

To all of you I say, stop generalizing, stop stereotyping, it's getting real old. IT IS ALSO AGAINST THE CODE OF CONDUCT ON THESE BOARDS, even if those in charge here particpate in it and turn a blind eye when others do so. Basically, it's wrong, even if it is very hard to avoid completely.

I also think Middle Eastern immigration in Europe is something different then most other immigrations I have seen as something different them most other waves of immigrants. I guess, because of the numbers and because of the words of people like Gadaffi (who isn't the first one to say this). It is the only group I know of that has a significant percentage of it's member saying 'don't integrate, in time there will be more of us than them.'

I have examples that show that many Arabs feel that way.

I feel uncomfortable with any group that talks in terms of 'god is on our side' and terms that resemble sound too much like 'manifest destiny'. It's Imperialistic. It wasn't right when the Europeans did it to others. But it is not right for others to do it to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
Integration is quite enough in order for everyone to get along and respect each other. I mean as long as people pay thjeir taxes and obey the law does it matter whether they celebrate Christmas or Hanukkah? There's no point in eradicating people's cultural identity just because they come to your country, IMO.
Agreed, in theory and ideally. But if 'they' (whomever 'they' are) do not respect me and would, if given the opportunity, eradicate my cultural identity, don't I have the right to be nervous?

Like it or not, it is the way Europeans like Midnightsfire feel. From where I'm sitting I think they have reason to feel that way.


 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Non Harry Potter Archives

Bookmarks

Tags
country, immigration, policies


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 3:15 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.