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All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 8th, 2006, 1:57 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

The prophecy is about Harry because Voldemort chose Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OOTP
"The odd thing is, Harry, that (the Prophecy) might not have meant you at all. Sybill's prophecy could have applied to two wizards boys... <snip> One, of course was you... <snip> I am afraid... that there is no doubt that it is you."
If he had chosen Neville, it would have been about Neville, and the label would have said Lord Voldemort - Neville Longbottom". No third party is written, either.

He didn't chose Snape. The prophecy isn't about Snape.

As for 'working together as equals'- that's Ron and Hermione's job.


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  #22  
Old December 8th, 2006, 2:07 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

I don't think that the meaning of the prophecy extends to a point that Harry must kill Voldemort, as long as some one does it really. In the same sense Voldemort did really bring this all on himself when you think about it... a prophecy can only be fulfilled if the subjects start down that particular path, Voldemort should have realised this and that by killing Harry's parents that it was only going to enrage Harry more and set his mind further on revenge... so in that respect he deserved it.


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  #23  
Old December 8th, 2006, 2:14 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

This line:

Quote:
and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...
...is wonderfully ambiguous.

Say I'm a new secretary at the Daily Planet. I'm opening the mail. I take a package to one of the reporters, a buff fellow in glasses, and say "look, someone sent you a pretty rock!" He keels over.

Have I murdered him? No. Did he die at my hand? Yep.

I think many elements (mainly Lily's protection, Harry's blood, the locked room and the power he knows not) will conspire so that while Harry makes his vanquishment possible, it will be a choice of Voldemort's that acutally kills him.


  #24  
Old December 8th, 2006, 2:37 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annett View Post
We all know these are the numbers of Jo`s birthday and we also know that she said Trelawney and she had chosen the words of the prophecy carefully. We also know that Voldemort is only aware of a part of the prophecy. This is the reason why he was at Godric`s Hollow. His spy can`t have heard the part of marking him as his equal and later. This leaves only the first sentence for Voldemort and these is the sentence with the hints. We also know that Tom Riddles was described as a clever boy. It wasn`t difficult to decide which of the two little boys is more dangerous. Than there is more in the prophecy, especially in the first sentence, that meets the eyes. Those line specifies the date: not only a boy born at the end of July, but rather the boy born at the 31, and that`s Harry.
"The one with the power.....born to those who have thrice defied him...born as the seventh month dies...."

Annett you are brilliant!!! I do believe you cracked it.
.....If you look at the numbers 1,3,7, It was never going to be Neville 7/30.
It was always going to be Harry 7/31....!

This means everything.
It means that Harry being the chosen one didn't have as much to do with Vold choosing Harry, as it did with what Trelawney said. Despite the half-blood connection, it was the wording of the prophecy that was important.

It also means that DD was wrong when he told Harry it could of also been Neville.

These numbers come up so much with in the book:
One- the one, the chosen one
Three- the trio(Harry, Ron, Hermione), the 3 wand cores, the 3 blood types, the 3 half-bloods(Snape, Vold, Harry)
Seven- the most magically powerful number is 7, Vold wanted 7 horcruxes, Ginny is the seventh child.

Vault 713, Harry's B-day 7/31,
I am sure there is more , and it is clear this is not a coincidense.


  #25  
Old December 8th, 2006, 2:42 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
The prophecy is about Harry because Voldemort chose Harry.



If he had chosen Neville, it would have been about Neville, and the label would have said Lord Voldemort - Neville Longbottom". No third party is written, either.

He didn't chose Snape. The prophecy isn't about Snape.

As for 'working together as equals'- that's Ron and Hermione's job.
Exactly.

I think the prophecy is fairly straightforward. Neither can live while the other survives simply means that Voldemort is not going to leave Harry alone until one of them is dead.


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  #26  
Old December 8th, 2006, 5:10 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

I think that Pottersmom is right about one thing...only. That is that in the end Harry and Snape will work together to defeat/kill Voldemort.

I think Harry will subdue/"vanquish" Voldemort but not be able to summon the strength or hate or whatever evil to finish the job. Then Snape will step in to kill Voldemort. Why? Because we don't want our pure, inoccent hero to be a murderer but more inportantly...Because Snape killing Voldemort is the answer to all questions regarding Snape. Think about it. We would then accept Dumbledore's mysterious faith in Snape. Snape would have done the right thing and could then return to wizard society instead of being an evil fugitive. And he would be respected as a hero...something I think Snape has always wanted...respect for his talent.


  #27  
Old December 8th, 2006, 5:21 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

that makes total sense

I also think that this task of destroying the dark lord will be similar to the different rooms leading up the the Quirrell in the PS. Each of harry's friends will help harry get to the next step but in the end it will be just Harry ... But i dont want snape in the end killing Voldy. Harry has gone through more then Snape had and will never understand not having parents. I know, I know Snape had a terrible up bringing but to never know your parents is much worse. Harry needs vengence for the murder of his parents and friends ( Cedric Dig)


  #28  
Old December 8th, 2006, 5:34 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

But... the prophecy? Snape isn't part of that, so...

Dumbledore told us the prophecy had two possible candidates, Neville and Harry. No more. When Voldemort chose, he chose Harry.

I do believe the final battle will be Harry and Voldemort alone. Jo said something about this, but Quick Quill is offline, darnit. As Ponytail said, his friends (Ron and Hermione, Ginny, etc) will help him get there, but it's still up to him.

So, somehow, Harry will have to fulfill the part about either dying at the hand of the other.


  #29  
Old December 8th, 2006, 5:56 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by pottersmom View Post
I think this supports a theory that the prophecy is actually referring to Severus
Except for the fact that JKR has discussed the prophecy a few times (on her website and in interviews) and she always indicated that the prophecy concerned Harry and Voldemort. Dumbledore, who spoke for JKR, also indicated as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beclyn View Post
.....If you look at the numbers 1,3,7, It was never going to be Neville 7/30. It was always going to be Harry 7/31....!
Of course it was always going to be Harry--JKR decided that before any words ever got put to paper. But those numbers aren't a clue to who would be the chosen one, since they are JKR's numbers. She likes them and uses them. But whether it is her use of the numbers or Harry as the chosen one, those are author decisions that are external to the events in storyline.

However, we have been told within the storyline that it could have been either Neville or Harry until Voldemot attacked and marked Harry. In fact, JKR told us that in a FAQ quiz on the website. And that is the information we should rely on.


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  #30  
Old December 8th, 2006, 9:50 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Of course it was always going to be Harry--JKR decided that before any words ever got put to paper. But those numbers aren't a clue to who would be the chosen one, since they are JKR's numbers. She likes them and uses them. But whether it is her use of the numbers or Harry as the chosen one, those are author decisions that are external to the events in storyline.
Yes, I agree. The hero gets her special numbers because she decided to make him the hero. Harry lives in a world created by JKR, so things don't happen by chance.

Quote:
However, we have been told within the storyline that it could have been either Neville or Harry until Voldemot attacked and marked Harry. In fact, JKR told us that in a FAQ quiz on the website. And that is the information we should rely on.
I always wondered how much of a choice Voldemort really had. Trelawney was the medium who told Dumbledore the prophecy. However, she did not make or send it. Something sent the prophecy at precisely that moment when Dumbledore met Trelawney and Snape stood outside and spied on Dumbledore. This is of course theoretical because JKR wanted this to happen. But following this theoretical train of thought: who makes the prophecies in the HP universe and for what purpose? Was Voldemort meant to act rashly on the information he got from Snape? We don't know. Dumbledore says that there is always a choice but Harry doesn't really have one. Turning his back on the war would be against his nature.


  #31  
Old December 8th, 2006, 10:12 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

I couldn't swear to this, but thinking back to the mediaeval and Elizabethan texts I've studied in the past, I'm pretty sure that in archaic English "either must die at the hand of the other" can mean "both must die at the hand of the other". Can anyone clarify/correct me on this?


  #32  
Old December 8th, 2006, 11:25 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beclyn View Post
"The one with the power.....born to those who have thrice defied him...born as the seventh month dies...."

Annett you are brilliant!!! I do believe you cracked it.
.....If you look at the numbers 1,3,7, It was never going to be Neville 7/30.
It was always going to be Harry 7/31....!
Thanks, but I`m not brilliant, I only used your draft and added my conlusions.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Beclyn View Post

These numbers come up so much with in the book:
One- the one, the chosen one
Three- the trio(Harry, Ron, Hermione), the 3 wand cores, the 3 blood types, the 3 half-bloods(Snape, Vold, Harry)
Seven- the most magically powerful number is 7, Vold wanted 7 horcruxes, Ginny is the seventh child.

Vault 713, Harry's B-day 7/31,
I am sure there is more , and it is clear this is not a coincidense.
That`s interesting, too. I`ll try to find more examples for those numbers.


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  #33  
Old December 8th, 2006, 1:11 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I couldn't swear to this, but thinking back to the mediaeval and Elizabethan texts I've studied in the past, I'm pretty sure that in archaic English "either must die at the hand of the other" can mean "both must die at the hand of the other". Can anyone clarify/correct me on this?
I interpret it as:

either Harry must die at the hand of Voldemort
or
Voldemort must die at the hand of Harry


and if you want to play further with the importance of 1, 7, and 3

Voldy has a 7 part soul, his soul is 1, 3 horcruxes are known

there are 7 Weaslies
Harry is the Chosen 1
the trio is 3

it can go on and on, but I think it is just coincidence



Last edited by SusanBones; December 8th, 2006 at 1:13 pm.
  #34  
Old December 8th, 2006, 1:31 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madron View Post
Yes, I agree. The hero gets her special numbers because she decided to make him the hero. Harry lives in a world created by JKR, so things don't happen by chance.



I always wondered how much of a choice Voldemort really had. Trelawney was the medium who told Dumbledore the prophecy. However, she did not make or send it. Something sent the prophecy at precisely that moment when Dumbledore met Trelawney and Snape stood outside and spied on Dumbledore. This is of course theoretical because JKR wanted this to happen. But following this theoretical train of thought: who makes the prophecies in the HP universe and for what purpose? Was Voldemort meant to act rashly on the information he got from Snape? We don't know. Dumbledore says that there is always a choice but Harry doesn't really have one. Turning his back on the war would be against his nature.
I look at the prophecy as a window into the future--a foggy window. Trelawney has peeked in on a series of events and their consequences. However, some of the outcomes are a little foggy. Who would be chosen was between two boys. Who will die at the hand of the other is somewhat foggy. But what is certain is that a boy would be marked and either Voldemort or that boy will eventually die.

Now, mind you, when the prophecy was made, no one knew that marking would be physical. It could simply have meant marked, as in acknowledged or indicated. In other words it could have meant that Voldemort decided on (chose) one of the boys as his equal (i.e. rival). No one could have guessed he would literally mark the boy with a scar and literally transfer powers (making Harry his equal).

The uncertain meaning and outcome is how it should be since the future is always in flux. I also agree that Harry really has no choice despite JKR saying he does. The entire prophecy smacks of predestination, and I think JKR was trying to soften that a bit by writing that Harry could choose to walk away. He can't walk away, Voldemort won't let him. Harry hasn't had a choice since Voldemort gave him that scar.

I used to think that Harry was always destined to be the chosen one before he was even born (or before he was even conceived), but JKR made sure we understood there was no preordained destiny for Harry. Again, she was trying to avoid any predestination.

Frankly I like that, since it means that Harry is an ordinary boy with extraordinary burdens, and he is rising to the occasion. It's a more interesting story than some boy with a special heritage and destiny.

Harry does have a special destiny now, but it was thrust upon him, not bestowed on him by his birthright.


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  #35  
Old December 8th, 2006, 1:47 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madron View Post
Since the gremlins took several of the threads on the prophecy, it is time for a new thread discussing the prophecy, its meaning and significance as well as its wording.

Previous threads on the prophecy: The prophecy and how JK worded it CAREFULLY.. | The prophecy and how JK worded it CAREFULLY v2.0 | The Prophecy: Its Impact, Meaning and Importance

The prophecy is worded in a way that leaves room for a lot of discussion and different interpretations. What exactly does it mean? Does Harry have to kill Voldemort or are there other options? How much of a choice does Harry really have? These are only a few points that are open to discussion. The prophecy has not only influenced our hero's life, it is also a major theme throughout the entire series: Fate vs. choices; predestination vs. free will.

For reference:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

Have fun with the discussion.
well first off jk has said that her and ms.trewalney woded the prophecy carefully

that being said i think it means that harry has no choice and has to kill him,or vanquish him in some way.or it could be vice-versa but i doubt jk would do that.or they could both die via the veil but harry would have to fall in without anyone trying to kill him.


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  #36  
Old December 8th, 2006, 1:53 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I couldn't swear to this, but thinking back to the mediaeval and Elizabethan texts I've studied in the past, I'm pretty sure that in archaic English "either must die at the hand of the other" can mean "both must die at the hand of the other". Can anyone clarify/correct me on this?
The books aren't written in archaic English.

I've posted this quite a few times now. But I'll do it one more time. First, understand that JKR taught English as a second language, so she is very conscious of all the quirks our language has and how they trip people up. I learned the following rule in sixth grade, and it confused the hell out of me, so I promptly forgot it. Sixth grade is just a hair under a half century ago for me, and I was shocked when the rule popped up in my head. Only I understood the distinctions finally.

When either is used as a pronoun, which is how it is used in the prophecy, it can only mean one or the other of two choices, but not both. When either is used an an adjective, it can mean one or other of two choices, or both. I'll post examples from the online Websters.

For either to be used as an adjective in the prophecy it would have to read: "Either one must die at the hand of the other." There the word either would be an adjective modifying the pronoun one. But there is no pronoun for either to modify in the prophecy, so it functions as a pronoun and subject of the sentence. "Either must die at the hand of the other." Only one of them is going to die. My money is on Voldemort.

Main Entry: either
Function: pronoun
1 : the one or the other <take either of the two routes>

Main Entry: either
Function: adjective

1 : being the one and the other of two : EACH <flowers blooming on either side of the walk> <plays either instrument well>
2 : being the one or the other of two <take either road>


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; December 8th, 2006 at 3:13 pm.
  #37  
Old December 8th, 2006, 2:09 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Thanks for clearing that up, CBW. I didn't know that.

I also like your take on prophecies being glimpses on the future. Although that brings up the question why Trelawney's voice changes. For me It sounds as if someone is speaking through her.


  #38  
Old December 8th, 2006, 2:45 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
I look at the prophecy as a window into the future--a foggy window. Trelawney has peeked in on a series of events and their consequences. However, some of the outcomes are a little foggy. Who would be chosen was between two boys. Who will die at the hand of the other is somewhat foggy. But what is certain is that a boy would be marked and either Voldemort or that boy will eventually die.
In my opinion nobody appreciates Trelawney`s value right, wether she nor any other people nor the readers. We know one of her two prophecys are true, because Wormtail returned to his master. Because she made so many predictions in her classes everybody thinks she isn`t a seer. The big problem is that the seer often didn`t know how to interpret what he had seen. And because Trelawney is greedy for success, her judgement mostly isn`t right. But she can see. I think she really saw a black dog in Harry`s tea cup, but it wasn`t the Grim as she said, it was only Sirius as an Animagus. She said once, that Harry was born under the influence of Saturn in the winter. Not Harry was born there, but Tom Riddle. She senced his transfered abilities on Harry I think. Also the card predictions are interesting: two of spades (conflict), 7 of spades (a bad omen), 10 of spades (violence) and knave of spades (a dark young man). She saw the lightning-struck tower, but she didn`t recognize what it mean. But that doesn`t mean that she didn`t have moments when her sight wasn`t clear.


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  #39  
Old December 8th, 2006, 3:10 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

I didn't say that she didn't see the future. I said that the image into the future was foggy. That's because the future isn't set in cement, not because she's a bad seer. I don't think any seer would have seen anything more clearly. Her prediction about Wormtail was more certain, and that was because it was the very near future.


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  #40  
Old December 8th, 2006, 3:16 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
The books aren't written in archaic English.
No, but the prophecy (at least in part) is. The syntax of "the power the Dark Lord knows not" is highly archaic, and , regardless of what it means, the phrase "either must die at the hand of the other" is not standard modern English.

Also, the books aren't written in American English, so reference to Websters is not conclusive.

Quote:
First, understand that JKR taught English as a second language, so she is very conscious of all the quirks our language has and how they trip people up.
And as someone who is fascinated with etymology and the history of the language she is also aware of historic usage. Her assertions that the language has been chosen very carefully seem to hint that it may mean something other than the surface meaning and has actually been designed to "trip us up."

As a native British speaker who has also studied and taught English Language I am well aware (as I thought I had made clear in my post) that "either" is functioning as a pronoun and cannot be used to mean "both" in this context in Modern English. I wasn't being "tripped up", as you seem to imply, by my ignorance of the English language. I was positing that the language of the prophecy should be read as archaic, where "both" is a possible (but not the only possible) meaning.

Darn, now I'm probably going to waste the whoel afternoon searching mediaeval and Renaissance texts for pronominative examples of "either" meaning "both", just to prove a point...


 
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