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  #1021  
Old November 22nd, 2013, 12:59 am
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Re: The Hobbit movie news: An Unexpected Journey

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I don't perceive anyone being angry over the inclusion of women in The Hobbit. Rather, I see fans' objections to the Jackson-created female character as an objection to a Jackson-created character. "Female" doesn't play a role - unless it's a dislike for changing the direction of the story (e.g. making it a romance instead of a "backwoods adventure" ).
I feel that there is an element of objecting to this new character *because* she is female in the fandom. There is actually an added character in Laketown - Alfrid, a sort of advisor or henchman of the Master of Laketown (who is a canon character), but far more energy is spent on Tauriel. Not to say everyone objecting has a problem with it, but I'd say some do.


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  #1022  
Old November 22nd, 2013, 3:30 am
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Re: The Hobbit movie news: An Unexpected Journey

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Originally Posted by ginger1 View Post
I think the Tolkien-lovers amongst us have enough problems with the 'messing about with the story' that Peter Jackson loves to do. (I'm not saying the result isn't good, but occasionally it's questionable,) Bringing in one elf-warrior female is bad enough - sex-changing some of the dwarves - nope!
What Tolkien lovers think is entirely moot regarding the box office. They are a tiny, tiny fraction of the people that buy tickets. (This was true for Harry Potter. This is true regarding what proportion of Doctor Who viewers are Whovians. This is true for Game of Thrones viewers. Etc., etc.)

Moreover, Jackson does not mess with stories: he messes with narratives and he tweaks theme. Story, narrative and theme all are fundamentally different concepts.


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Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
This is the way I've seen it explained on my Tolkien (book purist) fan board: Tolkien didn't put females in The Hobbit because he was not good at female characterization.
Well, Tolkien despised the entire concept of character-development. He firmly rejected the sociopolitical connotations of modern literature, which is based entirely around character development. For one thing, he rejected the idea that people are as complicated as "the romantics" held. (Modern character literature of the sort from which Harry Potter has its true roots has its roots in the romantic movement of the 19th century, along with other things that Tolkien disliked such as republicanism, capitalism, etc.) For another, he claimed to find character-literature "depressing" because so much of it deals with people struggling with their place in the world. He (like the classic Tories of 100 and more years ago) thought that the answer was obvious: your father's or your mother's place is your place; if God wanted you elsewhere, then he would have given you different parents.

So, we can simply write "Tolkien was not good at characterization" period. Yes, Bilbo got some decent development: but he provides almost not development of most of his characters. (Just think, for example, of how much more we learn about Neville Longbottom than we ever learn about Frodo Baggins!)

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Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
We also get rather riled at the directors/screenwriters/producers et.al. for messing with Tolkien's masterpiece--not because there are changes necessary to the different medium, but because often the changes show (to our way of thinking) a failure to grasp the underlying message and viewpoint of the author.
Oh, they understand it quite well. However, they also understand that the stark anti-republicanism and classism that underlies Tolkien's works will not go over well with modern audiences. (Curiously, a lot of Tolkien fans manage to miss this!) Indeed, look at the Hobbit: the Master and Smaug both are great allegorical figures for the evil of capitalism. And, of course, who kills the dragon? Why the heir of a true king, of course! Indeed, this is where Tolkien and Rowling stand in such stark contrast: in Tolkien's world, the Slytherin's are the good guys, the Gryffindors would be the same as Slytherins, and the Ravenclaws would be the source of "evil."

However, what does hold up well after all of these years is Tolkien's story. The Hobbit is a story about a person realizing that he is both much greater and much less than he assumed that he was. That story still works after all of these years.

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I feel that there is an element of objecting to this new character *because* she is female in the fandom. There is actually an added character in Laketown - Alfrid, a sort of advisor or henchman of the Master of Laketown (who is a canon character), but far more energy is spent on Tauriel. Not to say everyone objecting has a problem with it, but I'd say some do.
Oh, almost certainly. Every Tolkien fan group has a handful of very sexist people who find Tolkien's work appealing because of the lack of women. They usually wind up getting banned from the groups after one too many sexist or homophobic comments for the mods tastes. (Curiously, Tolkien groups tend to be run by a different type of Tolkien fan, the "Earth Goddess" fan!) It is unfortunate: such people really are the worst of us.


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  #1023  
Old November 22nd, 2013, 5:19 am
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Re: The Hobbit movie news: An Unexpected Journey

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I feel that there is an element of objecting to this new character *because* she is female in the fandom. There is actually an added character in Laketown - Alfrid, a sort of advisor or henchman of the Master of Laketown (who is a canon character), but far more energy is spent on Tauriel. Not to say everyone objecting has a problem with it, but I'd say some do.
I'm wondering how much this has to do with an anti-female bias that can be found within geek culture in general. Some guys seem to think geekiness should be a boys-only club, and I'm sure that overlaps into Tolkien fandom.


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  #1024  
Old January 6th, 2014, 5:07 pm
LyraLovegood  Female.gif LyraLovegood is offline
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Re: The Hobbit movie news: An Unexpected Journey

Two thoughts after seeing the movie TH: The Desolation of Smaug last Monday:

Spoiler: show
1. Tauriel wasn't so bad in and of herself, but having her in a love triangle with Legolas and Kili of all people seriously messes with my understanding of Arda and its people groups.

2. P.J.'s Thranduil is so very gay. Which also does not at all fit with my head canon.

Not that there couldn't possibly be a gay wood-elf, just that I doubt that the king and the father of Legolas would be.

If there were gay elves, they wouldn't need to stay in the closet by siring offspring; they'de be allowed to be gay by wood-elf society, and straight elves could do the business of reproducing the race.


There were good bits to the movie, but for the most part it was a experience for all four of the Sage/Lyra+girls family.


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Last edited by LyraLovegood; January 6th, 2014 at 5:11 pm.
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  #1025  
Old January 7th, 2014, 12:29 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Hobbit movie news: An Unexpected Journey

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
Two thoughts after seeing the movie TH: The Desolation of Smaug last Monday:

Spoiler: show
1. Tauriel wasn't so bad in and of herself, but having her in a love triangle with Legolas and Kili of all people seriously messes with my understanding of Arda and its people groups.

2. P.J.'s Thranduil is so very gay. Which also does not at all fit with my head canon.

Not that there couldn't possibly be a gay wood-elf, just that I doubt that the king and the father of Legolas would be.

If there were gay elves, they wouldn't need to stay in the closet by siring offspring; they'de be allowed to be gay by wood-elf society, and straight elves could do the business of reproducing the race.


There were good bits to the movie, but for the most part it was a experience for all four of the Sage/Lyra+girls family.
Spoiler: show
Thranduil isn't gay.


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  #1026  
Old January 7th, 2014, 9:23 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news: An Unexpected Journey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Spoiler: show
Thranduil isn't gay.
Spoiler: show
I didn't say he was. I said P.J.'s presentation of him is. And it isn't just me, I've seen a great deal of fan reaction to Thranduil as portrayed in the current movie presenting as gay. And the entire group of people I saw it in theater with agree with me.


No hard feelings, you can disagree with me all you want. But my impression likely won't change.


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  #1027  
Old January 8th, 2014, 12:10 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

Yeah...ok.
I get it...I understand it...and Legolas comes across as macho in comparison...but then again, so does Tauriel.

o wait...


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  #1028  
Old January 8th, 2014, 12:13 am
LyraLovegood  Female.gif LyraLovegood is offline
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

Well, no, Orlando Bloom as Legolas doesn't come across as macho, not in the NewLine studios films.

Spoiler: show
But I think the Newline Thranduil is even more gay, by comparison.




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  #1029  
Old January 8th, 2014, 1:33 am
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Re: The Hobbit movie news: An Unexpected Journey

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Originally Posted by Rell View Post
I'm wondering how much this has to do with an anti-female bias that can be found within geek culture in general. Some guys seem to think geekiness should be a boys-only club, and I'm sure that overlaps into Tolkien fandom.
There certainly is a strong core of misogyny in Tolkien fandom: it's almost always a pretty obvious over-reaction to "I have the social skills of a rabid Hamadryas baboon and no woman with even a double-digit IQ would be seen with me." However, I've seen a lot of it in Doctor Who fans, too. You can even find it in Game of Thrones fans: there is a very vocal core that just hate the strong female characters and idealize the weak ones!

At any rate, the failure of the first film to do anything for women showed up: the female audience actually dropped according to Box Office Mojo, at least for the opening week.

I'll be interested to see if Tauriel does anything to boost it a bit for the final film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
Two thoughts after seeing the movie TH: The Desolation of Smaug last Monday:
Your description of Thranduil is both insipid and offensive to say the least. (I find it almost ironic, too, given that the elves in the Hobbit now read like a noxious and over-the-top caricature of a gay glee club: and PJ veered strongly away from that, as did Tolkien when he wrote Lord of the Rings.) At any rate, PJ elves are an attempt to capture the ethereal, which is neither straight nor gay. Tolkien's descriptions of Elves actually were pretty much non-existent: he often resorted to describing the impressions they left (on Hobbits, at any rate) rather than what they actually were like. "Young and old, happy and sad, etc." are very vague terms to say the least, and if you ask 5 people to retroactively create something that would imply such contradictions, then you probably would get multiple answers. That is why it doesn't match what is in your head, and why what is in your head does not match what is in other readers' heads.

In this regard, however, PJ does a good job in making the Elves contradictory in projection. They all are quite young appearing, yet the typically move slowly and speak slowly in somewhat deep voices (two traits of older people): until they suddenly spring into action at paces that even young people (straight or gay) cannot match. Realistically, these are about the only things that you could do cinematically. (I suppose that they could spray "old person's smell" into the theaters along with newborn diaper smell to really confuse your olfactory senses, but I'd rather that they didn't.)


At any rate, the Hobbit II was fun and very enjoyable to watch. It was not, however, a good movie. They kept to the story pretty well, although they took some major liberties with the plot, and they seem to be adding Bard into the list of protagonists. What the heck: there's always room for more, right?

I did like that they actually had Thorin face-off with Smaug: if Thorin is going to be a protagonist (and he is in the film, unlike the book), then he really has to have some one-on-one with the Antagonist. To this end, they did a really good job of elevating Smaug from Villain to Antagonist, too.

And for all the seemingly extraneous intersection of LotR appendix material, I think I see where PJ is headed with all of this. He now has all eyes on Erebor (thanks to Legolas & Tauriel tailing the orcs who are tailing Thorin for Bolg in Dol Guldor!) This will make the Battle of X Armies seem much less arbitrary than I think it otherwise would for many viewers.


I sort of applaud what PJ is doing, but it also strikes me that so much work was necessary to make the Hobbit a worthy successor to Lord of the Rings that it actually just was not possible. It is too bad that he couldn't have done a simpler single-film Hobbit that stuck to just one protagonist (and thus about 76 fewer plot lines) 15 years ago, and then followed that up with Rings.

Oh well!



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  #1030  
Old January 8th, 2014, 2:53 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

Fleshing out the character "Bard" made more sense than the book where he comes out of nowhere to save the day.
Some scenes that were good: The dwarves giving Smaug a bloody nose using everything at their disposal...Bombur showing his "barrel-roll" fighting technique...Coins raining down from Smaug's "waist-coat..."Sauron's appearance...the very ground becoming red hot from Smaug's breath even as they were running away from it and diving down mining chutes.


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  #1031  
Old January 8th, 2014, 4:42 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

Can we please not engage in a futile discussion of what constitutes a gay portrayal? This inevitably leads to rehashing stereotypes.


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  #1032  
Old January 20th, 2014, 8:20 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

I loved this film and I have seen it twice so far (not counting the times I’ve seen it at home on my computer) and I will be seeing it again on thursday only this time in 3d.

I never really liked the book (first time I read it I threw it aside) mainly because the elves in it did not match up with the ones in LotR which I read first.

I can understand most of the choices PJ made even though I don’t like them all.
Spoiler: show

Tauriel/Kili/Legolas threesome thingy: I think this will lead up to some major conflict for Kili and Tauriel in the third film with Kili basically having to chose between „the love of his live” and his family. And why not… Why shouldn’t a dwarf fall in love with an elf.

The barrel ride: I know people have been complaining about this, but I liked it. It’s just not good film making to have 14 barrels floating down a river without action and you can’t really see who’s inside.

Azog: I think this is needed to explain why the orcs show up at Erebor.

Bard’s change of profession: this gives Thorin and co. a way into Laketown without adding a character that does’t add to the story. This way Bard gets to meet the dwarves, quarrel with them and explained why he goes to Erebor.


I think a lot of the purist forget that the things that are explained by a narrator in the book need to be explained in a different way in the film. And it’s not much of a book.. If PJ had filmed it exactly the way it is everyone would have fallen asleep watching it.

So.. all together I am more that happy with this film and I hate the idea I need to wait another 11 months to see the last film.


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  #1033  
Old January 21st, 2014, 2:36 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

The Tolkien fandom is much more divided over this one than they were over LotR.

It's curious: some people who really liked PJ's LotR, even if they were critical of many aspects of it, really can't stand DoS. And a few purists, who hated PJ's LotR, actually like DoS.

I understand the dislike of DoS in many ways. PJ is incredibly self-indulgent: the film is way too long for its source material, and if I see one more tedious Orc-fight ...

But while I understand the dislike of DoS, I don't share it. I enjoyed the film, and I can forgive the many ridiculous things in it because quite honestly they are no more ridiculous than some of the character assassination that went on in PJ's LotR. Although he didn't bend the laws of physics quite so much, in LotR ...

I like Tauriel. Freeman's Bilbo, Armitage's Thorin and Stott's Balin all offer me much compensation.

The film is fabulous to look at. I particularly like the organic, woody design of Thranduil's woodland realm - it's a less posh, exalted place like Lothlorien, which is just right.

I never expected the Hobbit films to impact me the same way as LotR, and they haven't. I love the LotR films more, and yet the annoying things in them annoy me more than the annoying things in the Hobbit films.

Looking forward to the final instalment. And then that'll be it, I guess. No more PJ films in Middle-earth!


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  #1034  
Old January 21st, 2014, 5:12 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Looking forward to the final instalment. And then that'll be it, I guess. No more PJ films in Middle-earth!
WHAT DID YOU JUST DO HERE?


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  #1035  
Old January 21st, 2014, 8:14 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
The Tolkien fandom is much more divided over this one than they were over LotR.

It's curious: some people who really liked PJ's LotR, even if they were critical of many aspects of it, really can't stand DoS. And a few purists, who hated PJ's LotR, actually like DoS.
Funny thing is, the purists seem to contradict themselves. They want a film that’s not too serious because it’s a children’s film, and others have complained it’s not serious enough. I wonder how they felt about the extended scenes in Rivendell… And I guess Bombur in the barrel bouncing all over the place was too much fun.. LOL
They want more backstory and in depth characters but PJ is not allowed to change anything. Hence the complaining now there’s three movies and not just one.

I don’t mind the extra backstories and the fleshed out characters. And looking at the soundtrack list there will be extra scenes at Beorn’s house, Mirkwood, Laketown, and Erebor. Which is good… it means more Thorin..

Michael Martinez, who is one of my favorite bloggers about the Tolkien fandom, loved LotR, liked the first Hobbit film, but hated the second one.
As far as I’m concerned people compare too much.


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  #1036  
Old January 21st, 2014, 9:55 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
WHAT DID YOU JUST DO HERE?
I dunno. What did I do?

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
Funny thing is, the purists seem to contradict themselves. They want a film that’s not too serious because it’s a children’s film, and others have complained it’s not serious enough. I wonder how they felt about the extended scenes in Rivendell… And I guess Bombur in the barrel bouncing all over the place was too much fun.. LOL
They want more backstory and in depth characters but PJ is not allowed to change anything. Hence the complaining now there’s three movies and not just one.
I'm not a purist myself and I don't think all the objections are puristy. Some people just don't care for PJ's directorial style. Like that boring extended middle in his 'King Kong'. If I see one more dinosaur/Orc ...

Quote:
I don’t mind the extra backstories and the fleshed out characters.
I don't mind in principle but, honestly, stuff like the Laketown conspiracy is a little lame. When PJ and the team add material clearly inspired by the Tolkien mythos, then I'm happy. I liked Gandalf's meeting with Thorin in Bree! I'm less happy with clichés and tropes that have been used many times before. Tolkien always does something original with the tropes ... PJ should follow his lead.

Quote:
… it means more Thorin..
Yeah, I do love Movie Thorin. Armitage is really well cast.


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  #1037  
Old January 21st, 2014, 10:11 pm
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I dunno. What did I do?
Hmm...*gives the evil squinty eye* Plays the innocent well...yessss

Once upon a time I recall hearing that there wouldn't be any more Harry Potter films after that final installment as well...


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Old January 22nd, 2014, 6:59 am
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

[quote=Pearl_Took;6083217I don't mind in principle but, honestly, stuff like the Laketown conspiracy is a little lame. When PJ and the team add material clearly inspired by the Tolkien mythos, then I'm happy. I liked Gandalf's meeting with Thorin in Bree! I'm less happy with clichés and tropes that have been used many times before. Tolkien always does something original with the tropes ... PJ should follow his lead. [/quote]

I don't know.. I think some of PJ's idea's will serve a purpose in the end. We just don't really know what that is yet. I guess the conspiracy in Laketown servess to show how "bad" the Master is and how "good" Bard. Otherwise it would seem a bit odd to the average moviegoer if the Master would all of a sudden take off with the money. Same with the Tauriel/Legolas/Kili threesome. I really don't want to know what Christopher Tolkien thaught of that one.. And that's what I mean.. I think I know where PJ is heading with all of his changes. We just have to wait untill the last film comes out to get the entire picture.


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  #1039  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 10:56 am
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Hmm...*gives the evil squinty eye* Plays the innocent well...yessss

Once upon a time I recall hearing that there wouldn't be any more Harry Potter films after that final installment as well...
Oh, right, well, I wasn't actually thinking about Potter. I'm not very interested in the new HP film project, I'm afraid (I've not read Fantastic Beasts and where to find them).

Any new Middle-earth project would, IMO, be about The Silmarillion ... and there's no way the Tolkien Estate will sell the film rights to that any time soon. (For which I respect them).

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
I guess the conspiracy in Laketown servess to show how "bad" the Master is and how "good" Bard. Otherwise it would seem a bit odd to the average moviegoer if the Master would all of a sudden take off with the money.
True enough.


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Old January 22nd, 2014, 1:42 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Hobbit movie news

I think the Laketown story arc was simply a way to flesh out the character of Bard. What purists accept wouldn't look at all that well in a movie if "Bard the Bowman came out of nowhere to save the day," which is what we have in the book. In the movie, we have a character we sympathize with.


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