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Do you remember memories in a pensieve?



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  #1  
Old March 1st, 2009, 4:08 am
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Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

The pensieve is used to store a person's memories , either for analysis of them from third person or, as Dumbledore remarks, to take a load off your mind.

My question is, if you take a memory out of your head, do you completely forget it? I would say no, but then it wouldn't really take anything off your mind, would it...

Also, you would have the memory of depositing the memory, so you would still remember it anyway, wouldn't you?

What are your thoughts?


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  #2  
Old March 1st, 2009, 4:26 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

That's an interesting question. I always assumed it was something like a copy of a memory or a physical part of the memory that was put in the pensieve but you still maintained the knowing of it. (The part we can't touch) Anyway, I looked up an old thread in the achieves that might interest you on the topic Here it is


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  #3  
Old March 1st, 2009, 5:00 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

You know what, I think its just a copy. Back in HBP, Slughorn gives Harry the memory of Tom Riddle but its an altered one. Then later he's still able to give Harry the memory without the alteration. I would think that the person would still have the memory inside their head. Good question, I had not thought of this before.


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Old March 1st, 2009, 6:05 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

But if it is just a copy then why would Snape have taken his out during Harry's training?


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Old March 1st, 2009, 8:29 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

^ Exactly.

And how would it clear your mind if you weren't actually getting rid of it?

Maybe you are still aware of having the memory, but you don't have the vivid image of it.

Kind of like things from when you were young: you remember them happening, but you may not be able to see them. (This is maybe just me, I don't know if anyone else's memory works the same way)

As for Slughorn, it is an interesting point as well. Perhaps he had convinced himself that this fake memory was true, and had pushed the real one far back into his memory. I don't think that you can ever get rid of a memory without physically taking it out, but I think that if you can convince yourself of a fake truth, blocking out the real one, you can make two memories of the same event...


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Last edited by willfitz; April 10th, 2010 at 1:24 am.
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Old March 1st, 2009, 10:10 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
^ Exactly.

And how would it clear your mind if you weren't actually getting rid of it.

Maybe you are still aware of having the memory, but you don't have the vivid image of it.

Kind of like things from when you were young: you remember them happening, but you may not be able to see them. (This is maybe just me, I don't know if anyone else's memory works the same way)

As for Slughorn, it is an interesting point as well. Perhaps he had convinced himself that this fake memory was true, and had pushed the real one far back into his memory. I don't think that you can ever get rid of a memory without physically taking it out, but I think that if you can convince yourself of a fake truth, blocking out the real one, you can make two memories of the same event...
No I don't think he tried blocking it out. He was very willing to retrieve the memory for Harry. Besides blocking out a memory doesn't get rid of it, especially one that he was ashamed of.


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Old March 1st, 2009, 11:13 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

That is actually what I am saying. He couldn't get rid of the memory, but he could push it away and make himself believe that a different version was true, thus creating two versions of the same memory.

This would satisfy the fact that the memory does actually leave the person, and yet Slughorn still had the real memory after giving Harry the fake one already.


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Old March 1st, 2009, 11:19 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

This is an interesting question! As Dumbledore explained the Pensieve to Harry it is used to store excess memories when you have too many thoughts in your head.

GoF, Chapter 30 , The Pensieve

'I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.'...

....One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours them into the basin, and examines them at one's own leisure.


So, this makes it sound like the memory is removed completely, although you must retain the knowledge that you have removed a particular memory. As, jookyle, has pointed out, Snape would not have had any reason to use the Pensieve if the memory still existed in his mind and that within the Pensieve was only a copy.
As far as Slughorns false memory is concerned, maybe he fabricated a completely new memory based on the original with the alterations and gave that to Dumbledore, whilst retaining the original memory himself.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; March 1st, 2009 at 11:21 am.
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Old March 1st, 2009, 11:27 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

Yes. I think that in order to fabricate such a memory, you have to convince yourself it is true. If it is not in agreement with your actual memory, it will just go white and foggy, and it won't seem like a memory at all.


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Old March 1st, 2009, 12:56 pm
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

I think rather than the memory being completely removed, it is simply deeply embedded in one's mind to the point where it becomes difficult for others to retrieve. It would not effect the person who removed the memory, they still remember it just fine.

Too, there may be distinct methods. The one I suggested above and another that does not cause the memory to be embedded so deep that another cannot get at it, but merely is a copy of the memory for storage.


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Old March 3rd, 2009, 3:34 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

But then how would this help get things off your mind? This is the reason that Dumbledore uses it (or so he says).

I think that the actual memory is removed, but you still are conscious of having the memory, and you know what the details of it are, but you can't vividly see it. Kind of like having a "book of the movie."

If you wanted to make a whole bunch of copies of the memory and give it out to a whole bunch of people, do you think that you could take out and enter a memory, then take out the memory of exploring the memory, then take out the memory of exploring the memory of exploring the memory........?


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Old March 4th, 2009, 10:48 pm
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

Am I only the only one who thinks if just removes them? Although, wouldn't you have a memory of putting the memory in the pensive? Thus still having the memory you removed inside of the memory of you removing it.


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Old March 4th, 2009, 10:56 pm
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I think rather than the memory being completely removed, it is simply deeply embedded in one's mind to the point where it becomes difficult for others to retrieve. It would not effect the person who removed the memory, they still remember it just fine.
I completely agree.

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But then how would this help get things off your mind? This is the reason that Dumbledore uses it (or so he says).
I think Dumbledore was just being elusive and cryptic, as always. I don't think we should take these words of his seriously.


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Old March 4th, 2009, 11:06 pm
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

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I think Dumbledore was just being elusive and cryptic, as always. I don't think we should take these words of his seriously.
That thought did cross my mind, but I don't think that he was just being elusive. I think he was just being genuine and I think that that is one use of a pensieve, to take things off your mind.

The theory of the memory itself being completely removed, in my opinion, satisfies all applications of the pensieve and all instances of people giving away memories.

When you remove a memory, you still have the knowledge of the memory, and you still know what happened and what the memory contains, but you can't relive it in your head, or pull it out and put it in a pensieve.

Legilimency, in my theory, is only able to see vivid memories in your head. It cannot see your thoughts, just your memories. As such, if you remove the memory, it is not possible for someone to access it directly from your mind. Hence, Snape removes his memories at the start of occlumency class.

When you remove memories as Dumbledore did, you leave yourself with less images spinning around, and just the bare knowledge to think about. In my opinion, this would make things easier to think through, so I don't think he was simply being facetious.


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Old March 4th, 2009, 11:11 pm
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

i didn't think it removed your memories, I always thought it just made a magical copy of them and thus you were able to store them in a more organised manner. As Snape said, the mind is not like a book to be read, it is complex and even the best minds forget minor details.


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Old March 4th, 2009, 11:30 pm
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
The theory of the memory itself being completely removed, in my opinion, satisfies all applications of the pensieve and all instances of people giving away memories.

When you remove a memory, you still have the knowledge of the memory, and you still know what happened and what the memory contains, but you can't relive it in your head, or pull it out and put it in a pensieve.

Legilimency, in my theory, is only able to see vivid memories in your head. It cannot see your thoughts, just your memories. As such, if you remove the memory, it is not possible for someone to access it directly from your mind. Hence, Snape removes his memories at the start of occlumency class.

When you remove memories as Dumbledore did, you leave yourself with less images spinning around, and just the bare knowledge to think about. In my opinion, this would make things easier to think through, so I don't think he was simply being facetious.
Yes, I can see your point and I agree about Dumbledore. The only thing I'm not sure I can agree with is that it's impossible to someone to access your memories once you have removed them, because Snape wouldn't even have had to use Occlumency against Voldemort in this case. All he would have had to do would be to place all the incriminating memories in the pensieve, and Voldy would have never had any hope of learning the Order's secrets. But we know that Snape spied "at great personal risk", according to Dumbledore.

I agree that pulling out your memories doesn't take away the knowing. But I also think removing a memory means removing just the clarity of the moment, the depth of the sensation. A really powerful Legilimens, like Voldy, could reach the shadowy hints of the memories even if their integral mass had been drawn out and stored away. Harry, on the other hand, would never have been able to do that, and this is why Snape hid his memories in the pensieve - it wouldn't work with Voldemort, but it would with Harry.


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Old March 5th, 2009, 12:20 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

Well, maybe the ability to read thoughts as well as memories is a different skill. Perhaps an average legilimens can read memories, but a truly great one can also read thoughts and knowledge. Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

The personal risk associated with being in Voldemort's presence goes beyond his suspicion of your betrayal. I mean, Voldy trusted Snape, but killed him anyway, so the danger may not have had anything to do with being found out.


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Old March 5th, 2009, 12:30 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

I think what Dumbledore meant was this:

Once you have placed a memory into the Pensieve, you have the ability to view it in great detail any time you want. As such, you are relieved from having to make any effort to remember it anymore - thats how it's a relief to a mind "too full of memories", when you don't have to worry about forgetting it you are free to focus better on other things. It's not that it's gone from your memory.

As for why Snape pulled some memories out before Occlumency with Harry, I have no idea.


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Old March 5th, 2009, 12:31 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
The personal risk associated with being in Voldemort's presence goes beyond his suspicion of your betrayal. I mean, Voldy trusted Snape, but killed him anyway, so the danger may not have had anything to do with being found out.
Well, he didn't trust him completely... He did probe his thoughts with Legilimency in the first chapter of DH.
And another thing. Snape says to Bellatrix in HBP: "Do you think I could deceive the Dark Lord? The most powerful legilimens of all time?". If we suggest that Bellatrix knows what a pensieve is, that means that Snape confirmed the theory that removed thoughts can still be seen by someone really powerful. Otherwise he wouldn't have said that.
Gosh, this is giving me a headache. I wish JKR devoted more time to the magical laws of her universe. Some of them are really wierd and inconsistent.


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Old March 5th, 2009, 12:55 am
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Re: Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

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My question is, if you take a memory out of your head, do you completely forget it? I would say no, but then it wouldn't really take anything off your mind, would it...
It depends on the memory, I think. If it's a painful memory and you seem to "forget it" it could be that you are either in denial or that you have repressed that painful memory for so long that often it's impossible and could be painful to even try to think about it...but the memory is buried in there somewhere.

I think major things that happened in your life are always there in your head but everyday, boring stuff just leaves and couldn't be brought back up and contained in a pensieve.


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