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When did Dumbledore realize that Harry hosted a part of Voldemort's soul?



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  #61  
Old October 8th, 2007, 5:05 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castlefast View Post
Dumbledore suspected that Harry might be a horcrux immediately after Voldemort's downfall at Godric's Hollow.
"Lost Prophecy" chapter of Order of the Phoenix, (pp. 826-827 American paperback

"I guessed, fifteen years ago," said Dumbledore, "when I saw the
scar upon your forehead, what it might mean. I guessed that
it might be the sign of a connection forged between you and
Voldemort. . . . it became apparent, shortly after you rejoined
the magical world, that I was correct . . . ."


Dumbledore never told anyone but Snape about the nature of this connection because it was part of his plan all along for Harry to only find out after all the horcruxes but Nagini had been destroyed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
In my opinion, he already believed this when he had the conversation with Snape after Lily's death. This is why he was so interested in protecting baby Harry, and also why he was so sure that Voldemort would be coming back.
Thank you for providing the quote, Castlefast. This does seem to suggest that Dumbledore thought Harry was a horcrux from the beginning. And it would seem to explain why Dumbledore is so intent on keeping Harry alive and why he thought that Voldemort would return.

But it does make me wonder about Dumbledore's conversation with Harry in HBP, when he told Harry that he first suspected that Voldemort made multiple horcruxes after the diary incident. Was Dumbledore trying to be evasive and not let Harry know about the Harrycrux. Or did he consider the conscious act of making a horcrux different than the unintentional act that made the Harrycrux. Ideas?


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  #62  
Old October 8th, 2007, 6:00 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

I think that Dumbledore was being the way he was. He gave Harry enough information that Harry needed in order for Harry to figure out things on his own. It was part of the plan.


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Old October 8th, 2007, 11:41 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
But it does make me wonder about Dumbledore's conversation with Harry in HBP, when he told Harry that he first suspected that Voldemort made multiple horcruxes after the diary incident. Was Dumbledore trying to be evasive and not let Harry know about the Harrycrux. Or did he consider the conscious act of making a horcrux different than the unintentional act that made the Harrycrux. Ideas?
That Voldemort made multiple Horcruxes is provided to us in DH as the explanation for how Harry was able to become an accidental Horcrux - Voldemort's soul was so shattered and destabilized by what he had done to it that the whole AK that did not work caused a soul bit to lodge with Harry, the sole survivor. (AAGH, evil pun).

I think, in the aftermath of Godric's Hollow, Dumbledore knew what had happened, (the soul bit lodged in Harry and Voldemort would be coming back) but not why. He might have considereed Voldemort had one other (intentional) Horcrux at that time (or Voldemort should have been dead for good before the soul bit lodged itself, too late to save him). So in that scene I think he is telling his usual truth (but not the whole truth).

He did not think Voldemort had made multiple Horcruxes, deliberately, until he saw how poorly the Diary was protected, and how it was intended to be used for a secondary purpose.


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  #64  
Old October 10th, 2007, 4:11 am
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

I think Dumbledore suspected that it was a possibility but that it was not until he realized that Harry understood Parseltongue that Dumbledore knew. This realization was cemented by Harry's consistently strengthening bond with Voldemort as his powers grew.


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  #65  
Old October 10th, 2007, 5:16 am
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
That Voldemort made multiple Horcruxes is provided to us in DH as the explanation for how Harry was able to become an accidental Horcrux - Voldemort's soul was so shattered and destabilized by what he had done to it that the whole AK that did not work caused a soul bit to lodge with Harry, the sole survivor. (AAGH, evil pun).

I think, in the aftermath of Godric's Hollow, Dumbledore knew what had happened, (the soul bit lodged in Harry and Voldemort would be coming back) but not why. He might have considereed Voldemort had one other (intentional) Horcrux at that time (or Voldemort should have been dead for good before the soul bit lodged itself, too late to save him). So in that scene I think he is telling his usual truth (but not the whole truth).

He did not think Voldemort had made multiple Horcruxes, deliberately, until he saw how poorly the Diary was protected, and how it was intended to be used for a secondary purpose.
Exactly. I think Dumbledore knew that Voldemort didn't put a part of his soul in Harry intentionally, ergo, there must be a Horcrux out there. He couldn't have imagine that there was more than 1, although I'm pretty sure that this idea may have popped out as a "not that far fetched", because Dumbledore knew Voldemort was capable of things unredeemable. Then In Harry's second year, after Harry explains to Dumbledore about the diary and the ghost like Riddle, he finally can stop guessing and start to digg further and more and begin recolecting information about Voldemort Horcruxes.

The same happeneds with Dumbledore guessing something strange had happened when Voldemort AKed Harry, that something might have enter or hit Harry, something else than the AK. But as Kimagine says, DD stopped guessing when he realises Harry could speak Parseltongue, just like Voldemort did.



Last edited by LudwigVan; October 10th, 2007 at 5:21 am.
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  #66  
Old October 10th, 2007, 5:50 am
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

I think that DD always suspected it and i think slowly learned the truth - he is after all the greatest wizard of our time :P


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Old October 10th, 2007, 1:28 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harryfan7 View Post
I think that Dumbledore was being the way he was. He gave Harry enough information that Harry needed in order for Harry to figure out things on his own. It was part of the plan.
I agree that Dumbledore had a motive in wanting Harry to learn. But it can be argued that by not being completely foward with Harry he could have put Harry in more danger.


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  #68  
Old October 10th, 2007, 7:13 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrezLeefun View Post
I agree that Dumbledore had a motive in wanting Harry to learn. But it can be argued that by not being completely foward with Harry he could have put Harry in more danger.
What would you do if you were told you had to find all the Horcruxes and destroy them - which is not only hard and deadly in itself - but that after that had been done that you had to go and face your death at the hands of the man who killed your parents, friends and countless others? And that your best friends were only in on the plan incase you snuffed it during the search for the Horcruxes?

You'd probably hate the person who told you this, you wouldn't want to do it, you might do something stupid. It's a lot to handle in one go, so DD planned it out in stages and let Harry know at the right times and let him figure most of it out for himself.

He gave Harry the task of finding the Horcruxes, because in reality, it didn't matter if he died, sure it would be sad for all including DD, but he had to die. Heck DD probably already knew he wouldn't actually die, only that the Horcrux would be removed. DD's way too smart, he's like the one holding all the cards, there has been very few things he has been wrong about.


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  #69  
Old October 11th, 2007, 5:29 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

All I'm sure of is that by the time Harry got out of the maze in GOF, he knew. He was sure that Harry could not die until Voldemort did, and although this is not hard proof that he knew about the horcrux Harry, at least he knew Harry had no chance of losing the final battle. My guess is that he always suspected it, given the uniqueness of the case, but wasn't sure of it until Harry started speaking parseltongue, which meant he had some of Voldemort's powers.

By the way, Harry can't speak parseltongue anymore now, can he?


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Old October 11th, 2007, 7:09 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

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Originally Posted by HeRmIoNe_14 View Post
All I'm sure of is that by the time Harry got out of the maze in GOF, he knew. He was sure that Harry could not die until Voldemort did, and although this is not hard proof that he knew about the horcrux Harry, at least he knew Harry had no chance of losing the final battle. My guess is that he always suspected it, given the uniqueness of the case, but wasn't sure of it until Harry started speaking parseltongue, which meant he had some of Voldemort's powers.

By the way, Harry can't speak parseltongue anymore now, can he?
Couldn't agree more. I think DD never stopped guessing that Harry maybe an unintentional Horcrux, but after knowing that Harry had the ability to speak with snakes, the guess started talking shape and slowly became a fact.
I am not sure of this but I think that when Harry tells DD that Voldemort had indeed resurrect himself with his own (Harry's) blood there was a "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's face.

PS: No, Harry can't talk Parseltongue any more, Jo said it in her last "online" interview.



Last edited by LudwigVan; October 12th, 2007 at 4:10 pm.
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  #71  
Old October 14th, 2007, 9:40 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

JKR said in the online post-DH interview that "in essence divided" referred to Nagini:

"Rosi: What does in essence divided mean?"

"J.K. Rowling: Dumbledore suspected that the snake's essence was divided - that it contained part of Voldemort's soul, and that was why it was so very adept at doing his bidding. This also explained why Harry, the last and unintended Horcrux, could see so clearly through the snake's eyes, just as he regularly sees through Voldemort's. Dumbledore is thinking aloud here, edging towards the truth with the help of the Pensieve."

Link to the interview:
http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/full_story/1156


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  #72  
Old October 15th, 2007, 1:16 am
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

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Originally Posted by _Flagrate_ View Post
What would you do if you were told you had to find all the Horcruxes and destroy them - which is not only hard and deadly in itself - but that after that had been done that you had to go and face your death at the hands of the man who killed your parents, friends and countless others? And that your best friends were only in on the plan incase you snuffed it during the search for the Horcruxes?
I see your point, but the fact remains that no one (not even DD) knew what Harry might do. Harry was never given the chance to indicate what he would do because he wasn't told. Harry didn't know the first thing about the wizard world at 11 when he was brought into it. That so much was at stake and dependent upon him was something that he had a right to know imo. One might question if a 12 year old, green about the ears, wizard should be told about such suspicions, but as it would have a material affect on any decisions that Harry made from that point forward, I would say yes. If he decided to flee, that would be his choice and was rightfully his to make.

DD instead waited until Harry was at the point of no return to tell him - when Harry basically had been raised for the slaughter and had no 'real' choice in the matter. His choice at that point came down to watching more people that he had come to love die, and many more people besides or die himself. But at 12, he wouldn't have had such a poignant choice: at that point there were no deaths and he could be told what he was in for. A brave kid (as Harry was) would have likely gone through with it anyway. But at least he would have had a much more unfettered choice imo.


Quote:
He gave Harry the task of finding the Horcruxes, because in reality, it didn't matter if he died, sure it would be sad for all including DD, but he had to die. Heck DD probably already knew he wouldn't actually die, only that the Horcrux would be removed. DD's way too smart, he's like the one holding all the cards, there has been very few things he has been wrong about
I agree that DD reached the conclusion after GoF that Harry might not die, but it was purely speculation. I also agree that for Voldy to be killed Harry had to 'die'. However, imo that was a choice that Harry should be solely responsible for making rather than being 'raised' in such a way that he would make that decision. That imo is not making the decision on his own; that is being forced into making it. DD was very wise and his heart was in the right place with respect to the greater good. But imo, his means were not justified by that end.

I agree that DD knew Harry was likely a horocrux from the beginning and knew almost for certain when he began speaking parseltongue - I feel at that point (at the latest) he should have informed Harry about it.


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  #73  
Old October 15th, 2007, 1:56 am
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

I really think he suspected it in SS. Dumbledore just didn't want to tell Harry when he was eleven. I think Dumbledore's suspicsions was confirmed in GOF.


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  #74  
Old October 15th, 2007, 3:55 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
But it does make me wonder about Dumbledore's conversation with Harry in HBP, when he told Harry that he first suspected that Voldemort made multiple horcruxes after the diary incident. Was Dumbledore trying to be evasive and not let Harry know about the Harrycrux. Or did he consider the conscious act of making a horcrux different than the unintentional act that made the Harrycrux. Ideas?
I think that Albus Dumbledore was probably being truthful at this point, although it is difficult to be sure now that we have seen him through Aberforth's eyes, and that his realization that there were multiple horcruxes was a gradual process. Albus knew about horcruxes before Tom Riddle did, and we know this because Horace Slughorn told Tom that horcruxes were a banned subject at Hogwarts and that Albus was "particularly fierce" about it. Then, as newly appointed headmaster, Albus wondered why Tom Riddle was undergoing a physical transformation with red eyes and blurred and waxy looking features.

We know that Dumbledore believed there was at least one intentional horcrux and one accidental horcrux (Harry) based upon the quote I referred to previously, and the extraordinary measures that Albus took to protect Harry. Albus felt the connection between Harry and Voldemort was confirmed by Harry's feeling of warning during his first year. It was the diary horcrux that made Albus realize that there could be multiple horcruxes, and this was confirmed two years later by Voldemort's "further along the path" to immortality declaration in the graveyard. That is what made the Slughorn memory so crucial to Albus: finding out how many horcruxes had to be destroyed.

Back to your request for ideas on whether Albus was lying to Harry when he told Harry that he first thought about multiple horcruxes after the diary. I don't have a problem putting it that way now that we know Albus was very secretive, and that he lied about a lot more than seeing socks in the mirror of Erised, but he did seem to distinguish between Voldemort's intentional horcruxes and what happened to Harry. Even when he finally tells Snape about the part of Riddle's soul latched on to Harry he still only calls it a "connection," and only refers to Harry as "the seventh horcrux" after he is dead and meets Harry in the limbo resembling King's Cross. The dead Albus was as candid as the live Albus was deceptive.


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  #75  
Old October 15th, 2007, 4:31 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

First of all, not since the release of Deathly Hallows have I visited Chamber of Secrets. As a theatrical reader--one who sits alone and reads aloud, often using various voices for characters to fit their personalities as I interpret them--it takes me a long time to read a novel. The great part of reading this way is I become a bit more intimate with the characters and understand better how they are thinking. Even reading the entire Harry Potter Series this way occluded Dumbledore's ultimate motives, and understanding until the very end.

A close Second to Severus Snape for enigmas wrapped in a mystery is Albus Dumbledore. Throughout the series it was clear to me that he had many secrets, but what they were and where he had them hidden was just as much a mystery as the man himself. For me, I believe part of that mystery was revealed before Deathly Hallows. In truth, Chamber of Secrets was the story which revealed this.

As Harry's abilities, those connected to or identical to Voldemort's, became apparent, Dumbledore put together the pieces of the puzzle; connecting the dots so to speak. In PS/SS Harry has pain in his scar when he is near Quirrell/Voldemort. First clue, but hardly telling. In COS Harry revealed that he is a Parselmouth. The ability to talk to snakes is a very rare "gift", apparently one that is not learned. Voldemort also speaks parseltongue. Even if at this point Dumbledore had his suspicions about the connection between Harry and LV, they were not confirmed until Harry called off the snake in Dueling Class.

Even Dumbledore is not so smart as to think he is beyond confirming a hypothesis before running with it. At the point that Albus confirmed his theory, he began researching further to determine what can be done, and what has to be done. Knowing Dumbledore, he would have fought the notion of Harry sacrificing himself until there was no other option, then he had no choice but to embrace it and let the cards fall where they were foretold.


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  #76  
Old October 15th, 2007, 4:46 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I see your point, but the fact remains that no one (not even DD) knew what Harry might do. Harry was never given the chance to indicate what he would do because he wasn't told. Harry didn't know the first thing about the wizard world at 11 when he was brought into it. That so much was at stake and dependent upon him was something that he had a right to know imo. One might question if a 12 year old, green about the ears, wizard should be told about such suspicions, but as it would have a material affect on any decisions that Harry made from that point forward, I would say yes. If he decided to flee, that would be his choice and was rightfully his to make.

DD instead waited until Harry was at the point of no return to tell him - when Harry basically had been raised for the slaughter and had no 'real' choice in the matter. His choice at that point came down to watching more people that he had come to love die, and many more people besides or die himself. But at 12, he wouldn't have had such a poignant choice: at that point there were no deaths and he could be told what he was in for. A brave kid (as Harry was) would have likely gone through with it anyway. But at least he would have had a much more unfettered choice imo.




I agree that DD reached the conclusion after GoF that Harry might not die, but it was purely speculation. I also agree that for Voldy to be killed Harry had to 'die'. However, imo that was a choice that Harry should be solely responsible for making rather than being 'raised' in such a way that he would make that decision. That imo is not making the decision on his own; that is being forced into making it. DD was very wise and his heart was in the right place with respect to the greater good. But imo, his means were not justified by that end.

I agree that DD knew Harry was likely a horocrux from the beginning and knew almost for certain when he began speaking parseltongue - I feel at that point (at the latest) he should have informed Harry about it.

I agree, HP was raised into making the decision at the last moment by DD. That it wasn't purely his own choice. Sure he could of walked away from it all. But then Voldemort would live on as long as Harry was alive. I think it was right for DD to do as he did, to raise him to go to slaughter as it were. Even if DD didn't know for sure he would survive. Harry's sacrifice would mean the salvation and freedom for the rest of the wizarding world. Harry realised this and did what he had to. Many people throughout history have died for their rights and for their, and other people's freedoms. Harry was one of them. Or would of been if he died. True it was wrong in a way for DD to spring the choice on him literally at the last second, but it had to be the way it was. Even Harry realised that and even forgave DD for it, as can be seen by him naming his son after him.


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Old November 1st, 2007, 11:06 pm
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

JKR Says Harry Potter was NOT a Horcrux

Just an FYI for this thread.

According to Leaky Cauldron staff members that met JKR in NYC on her Open Book Tour in October '07 Harry Potter was NOT a Horcrux. There is no transcript, because the LC members met JKR personally "back stage" w/o recording it.

But I do have the 1+ minute audio excerpt from the Leaky Cauldron discussion. Yay! (Fair use excerpt for non-commercial purpose.)

Click Link to Listen Here:

Harry Potter was NOT a Horcrux

(If the link does not work above to play it directly, then right-click (click right mouse button) on the link here: Harry Potter was NOT a Horcrux and choose open or save the audio file to your computer. Then play it from your player and/or computer. The file name is: HarryNotAHorcrux.mp3)


The full 54 minute PotterCast #122 is here:

PotterCast #122


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  #78  
Old November 3rd, 2007, 5:36 am
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Re: When did Dumbledore realize that Harry was a Horcrux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Flagrate_ View Post
He gave Harry the task of finding the Horcruxes, because in reality, it didn't matter if he died, sure it would be sad for all including DD, but he had to die. Heck DD probably already knew he wouldn't actually die, only that the Horcrux would be removed. DD's way too smart, he's like the one holding all the cards, there has been very few things he has been wrong about.
I think that the two points you make here are contradictory. The first I diagree with completely, however the second I agree with you.

I think your first point here is a very strong thing to say. It sort of comes down to the question, did Dumbledore really raise Harry like a pig for slaughter? Personally, I don't think he did. Maybe it is me being unable to see DD as a character capable of something like that, but there's something that tells me he wouldn't do that to Harry.

Your second point makes sense to me - I agree with you that DD probably was on the track of understanding that Harry wouldn't actually die. However, he most likely saw it as just a hunch. DD described everything as just a hunch, even though he was usually spot-on when it came to these things...he told Harry that his Horcrux idea was as capable of being wrong as the man who decided the time was ripe for a cheese cauldron. Dumbledore could have been completely wrong about Harry not actually dying (it turns out he wasn't but that's besides the point). DD didn't tell Harry that he needed to die for (to use his own words) "the greater good" because he loved Harry...he didnt tell Harry about the need to sacrifice himself not because he was using Harry as a pig for slaughter, but because he didn't want Harry to live through the most precious years of his life...his youth...with any more difficulties than the ones which had already been forced upon him.


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