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So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?



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  #121  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 3:07 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
That does seem to have been Dumbledore's plan with the wands, but Dumbledore's plan also included getting Harry to Voldemort before all the Horcruxes were destroyed, as in Dumbledore's version of events Nagini would still be around. Was it essential for Voldemort to have at least one Horcrux for Harry to survive? The shock of the AK seems to have sent Voldemort to Limbo-land too. I assume it was the Nagini Horcrux that pulled Voldemort back to the land of the living. I think if Voldemort had no Horcruxes he would have died, and Harry would not have then had the choice to return.
Another ! You're really on a roll!!!

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Thanks! I think there are definite simularities between the two battles. According to Dumbledore, the graveyard battle was what spurred Voldemort to go looking for a more powerful wand, and led him on his quest to find the Elder Wand. Rather ironic.
Ironic indeed.


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  #122  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 4:11 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

I think Harry would have been able to return even if Nagini were gone. I think the non-simultaneous nature of the situation would save Harry. Because as I understand it, here is what would happen:

1) Voldemort casts AK (as he did in the book).
2) AK hits Harry. Because of the love protection and its continuation in Voldemort's (at this moment) living body, Harry would not die, but the soul bit would be destroyed.
3) The AK would rebound because of the love protection.
4) The AK would hit Voldemort, and he would die. (Because we area ssuming this is after Nagini is gone, and because in 2), Voldemort would have lost the "Harry Horcrux".)

Albus clearly expected that Harry might be able to kill Nagini before allowing Voldemort to kill him. He says to Snape (and thus, to Harry, as Albus trusts Snape to deliver the message),

DH, "The Prince's Tale"" If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort.”


Since while Nagini is alive, there can be no end to Voldemort, Albus clearly expected Harry to kill her first. And yet Albus also hoped that Harry would survive, as he states in "King's Cross".

So I think Albus's plan was simply, that Harry would destroy the remaining Horcruxes, then go be killed by Voldemort, and Presto! Instead Voldemort would die and Harry would live. Game Over, time to live Happily Ever After. Thus, I do not think there was a "flaw" in this part of the plan (other than, Harry did not manage to kill Nagini).

But Albus also had a plan to deal with the Elder Wand and the problem of its ownership. As Harry explains this plan to Voldemort in "The Flaw in the Plan", the intent of Dumbledore in asking Snape to kill him, was to arrange to die undefeated (as Snape's action would not constitute a defeat, he would merely be carrying out Albus's stated will.) And this would prevent anyone from becoming Master of the Elder Wand. Had Dumbledore not taken some sort of steps and allowed himself to die of the Ring Curse, it is my opinion that the Elder Wand would have passed to Voldemort, making him even more dangerous to Harry and to others. And it was this plan that went awry, when, unexpectedly, Draco defeated Albus before Snape could kill him.

It nonetheless worked out well because of Harry's actions at Malfoy Manor, when he seized Draco's wand, and because Harry was able to grasp enough about wandlore to understand the significance of that act once he knew where the Elder Wand was and who had been its previous Master.


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  #123  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 5:47 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

I agree with everything you said, arithmancer, and would like to add one thing. Dumbledore encouraged Harry to tell his friends about the Horcrux hunt. And I think that was part of Dumbledore's plan to insure that someone was left alive who knew that Voldemort had created Horcruxes and knew that the only way to defeat him was to destroy them all. Dumbledore hoped that Harry could get them all before facing Voldemort, but as a clever strategist, Dumbledore had to plan for the unexpected. Harry was able to meet Neville on the way to the Forest to tell him about Nagini, but if he hadn't run into Neville, Hermione and Ron knew what would have had to be done.


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  #124  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 6:06 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

And that's one thing that really, really, bothered me about Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself in DH. It clearly wasn't time yet. Harry knew LV still had a horcrux and couldn't die. Yet, the prophecy clearly stated that Harry alone was the one to defeat LV, if anyone. By agreeing to die when he did, to take himself out of the fight, Harry was -by his good but perhaps naive intentions- sentencing everyone else to LV's tyranny, with little hope of ever winning. Even without the horcruxes, even if Neville managed to take out Nagini (which he did), LV would've been the most difficult wizard of all to kill. -Unless- Harry also implicitly understood beforehand that his sacrifice would provide the same kind of protection his mother afforded him? But I don't think he realized that until after the fact, until after speaking with DD at the ethereal King's Crossing station, not before he "died". So back to square one..
It really bothered me, while reading DH, that Harry, much like DD before him, allowed himself a premature death, when the battle was still far from won. It was almost as though he gave up. That struck me as so illogical as to be a plot hole of sorts.


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  #125  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 6:11 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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And that's one thing that really, really, bothered me about Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself in DH. It clearly wasn't time yet. Harry knew LV still had a horcrux and couldn't die. Yet, the prophecy clearly stated that Harry alone was the one to defeat LV, if anyone. By agreeing to die when he did, to take himself out of the fight, Harry was -by his good but perhaps naive intentions- sentencing everyone else to LV's tyranny, with little hope of ever winning. Even without the horcruxes, even if Neville managed to take out Nagini (which he did), LV would've been the most difficult wizard of all to kill. -Unless- Harry also implicitly understood beforehand that his sacrifice would provide the same kind of protection his mother afforded him? But I don't think he realized that until after the fact, until after speaking with DD at the ethereal King's Crossing station, not before he "died". So back to square one..
It really bothered me, while reading DH, that Harry, much like DD before him, allowed himself a premature death, when the battle was still far from won. It was almost as though he gave up. That struck me as so illogical as to be a plot hole of sorts.
You are right that by taking himself out of the fight prematurely, that he was also depriving the "good side" of one of their most important assets. But I think that Harry believed Voldemort when he claimed that he would stop the Battle of Hogwarts if Harry turned himself in. And I think that was why Harry did it.

And I agree that Harry thought he was going to die. He didn't know that he could sacrifice himself, be hit by an AK spell, and still survive. He truly thought he would die.


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  #126  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 7:52 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Dumbledore hoped that Harry could get them all before facing Voldemort, but as a clever strategist, Dumbledore had to plan for the unexpected. Harry was able to meet Neville on the way to the Forest to tell him about Nagini, but if he hadn't run into Neville, Hermione and Ron knew what would have had to be done.
Yes! And in fact Harry has this thought himself, as he passed the information that Nagini must be killed to Neville, that after he dies there will still be three people who know. At first Albus planned to do this himself; I think his almost-death with the Ring convinced him of the need for some redundancy.

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And that's one thing that really, really, bothered me about Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself in DH. It clearly wasn't time yet. Harry knew LV still had a horcrux and couldn't die. Yet, the prophecy clearly stated that Harry alone was the one to defeat LV, if anyone.
I disagree. I do not think Harry believed this of himself, that he was the only one who could ever kill Voldemort. Whether this is because he understood the Prophecy differently from the way you apparently do, or whether it is because he, like Dumbledore, did not set great store by prophecies, I could not say. But we are given some accounting of his mental processes after he views Snape's memories, and nowhere in them do we see him reflect that no one will be able to kill Voldemort once he, Harry, is dead. On the contrary, his action in telling Neville to kill the snake suggests he expects that people will continue to try and might well succeed.

In a sense Harry is uniquely situated, as he is the master of the Elder Wand and Voldemort is using that wand now. If Harry has the whole thing figured out before his "death", though, we are given no indication of this (and also, his willing sacrifice would mean the end of the Elder Wand's power, I would say, just as ALbus hoped that his own willing death at Snape's hand would have the same effect). And if he didn't, I would agree with him that there were others that seemed every bit as capable, once the little matter of the Harry Horcrux was dealt with.


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  #127  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 8:35 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

I believe the flaw in the plan that Dumbledore spoke about to Harry in OoTP was that he started caring about Harry too much. Dumbledore was supposed to be detached and logical when it came to the plan and should have seen Harry as a tool to finish Voldemort. As it happened, Dumbledore got fond of Harry, wanted to protect him from pain, wanted to see him happy. Its because of this that Harry did not know about the prophecy earlier. Dumbledore lost sight of the long term goal and cared more for the here and now.


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  #128  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 9:37 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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I disagree. I do not think Harry believed this of himself, that he was the only one who could ever kill Voldemort. Whether this is because he understood the Prophecy differently from the way you apparently do, or whether it is because he, like Dumbledore, did not set great store by prophecies, I could not say. But we are given some accounting of his mental processes after he views Snape's memories, and nowhere in them do we see him reflect that no one will be able to kill Voldemort once he, Harry, is dead. On the contrary, his action in telling Neville to kill the snake suggests he expects that people will continue to try and might well succeed.

In a sense Harry is uniquely situated, as he is the master of the Elder Wand and Voldemort is using that wand now. If Harry has the whole thing figured out before his "death", though, we are given no indication of this (and also, his willing sacrifice would mean the end of the Elder Wand's power, I would say, just as ALbus hoped that his own willing death at Snape's hand would have the same effect). And if he didn't, I would agree with him that there were others that seemed every bit as capable, once the little matter of the Harry Horcrux was dealt with.
I understand what you're saying about the prophecy and it's viability (or lack thereof) did occur to me as well, but upon deeper reflection, I think it does matter: DD hadn't set much store in the prophecy until Voldemort acted on it, making it come about. At this point, things are now set in motion and the prophecy essentially comes true, and continues in that vein. Magically, I figure that's how it works.
And, when all is said and done, that was exactly how it worked out in the end, despite Harry's intended actions to the contrary.

Even with all the horcruxes gone, no one would've really had a snowball's chance against LV; Harry won only because (technically speaking now) he became master of the Elder wand that LV sought and carried. With both DD and Harry gone, I think it highly unlikely anyone else would have found a way to beat Voldemort, he was just too powerful, even if ignorant of certain values.

On an aside, that'd be an interesting bit of fanfic: Harry dies in the forest for real, and LV wins the battle at Hogwarts.. now what? lol


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  #129  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:32 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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Originally Posted by Grymmditch View Post
I understand what you're saying about the prophecy and it's viability (or lack thereof) did occur to me as well, but upon deeper reflection, I think it does matter: DD hadn't set much store in the prophecy until Voldemort acted on it, making it come about. At this point, things are now set in motion and the prophecy essentially comes true, and continues in that vein. Magically, I figure that's how it works.
And, when all is said and done, that was exactly how it worked out in the end, despite Harry's intended actions to the contrary.
And perhaps that's what we're supposed to take away from this. Voldemort, in trying to force the Prophecy to come out his way, was defeated. Harry, acting freely and based on his own sense of right and wrong, out of love, despite the lack of any adherence to the Prophecy's formula, won.

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With both DD and Harry gone, I think it highly unlikely anyone else would have found a way to beat Voldemort, he was just too powerful, even if ignorant of certain values.
It only takes one spell, and there are many characters I believe capable of casting it.

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On an aside, that'd be an interesting bit of fanfic: Harry dies in the forest for real, and LV wins the battle at Hogwarts.. now what? lol
Lessee...Neville still does in Nagini. And in the bloody aftermath, as Death Eaters feast in the Great Hall having ordered the surviving House Elves to serve them...Kreacher takes revenge for both his beloved masters, his own suffering, and the suffering of other House Elves at the hands of Death Eaters, braining the Dark Lord with a heavy frying pan before anyone can stop him.


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Last edited by arithmancer; January 22nd, 2010 at 10:38 pm.
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  #130  
Old January 25th, 2010, 5:02 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I think Harry would have been able to return even if Nagini were gone. I think the non-simultaneous nature of the situation would save Harry. Because as I understand it, here is what would happen:

1) Voldemort casts AK (as he did in the book).
2) AK hits Harry. Because of the love protection and its continuation in Voldemort's (at this moment) living body, Harry would not die, but the soul bit would be destroyed.
3) The AK would rebound because of the love protection.
4) The AK would hit Voldemort, and he would die. (Because we area ssuming this is after Nagini is gone, and because in 2), Voldemort would have lost the "Harry Horcrux".)

Albus clearly expected that Harry might be able to kill Nagini before allowing Voldemort to kill him. He says to Snape (and thus, to Harry, as Albus trusts Snape to deliver the message),

DH, "The Prince's Tale"" If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort.”


Since while Nagini is alive, there can be no end to Voldemort, Albus clearly expected Harry to kill her first. And yet Albus also hoped that Harry would survive, as he states in "King's Cross".

So I think Albus's plan was simply, that Harry would destroy the remaining Horcruxes, then go be killed by Voldemort, and Presto! Instead Voldemort would die and Harry would live. Game Over, time to live Happily Ever After. Thus, I do not think there was a "flaw" in this part of the plan (other than, Harry did not manage to kill Nagini).
From what Dumbledore said, he expected Voldemort would keep Nagini close, and wanted Harry not to fight. So I don't think Dumbledore expected Harry to take out Nagini before he died (although that whole aspect of the plan strikes me as iffy, since Nagini could well have been destroyed at Godric's Hollow or any point before Voldemort realized the danger, and he may well have never realized the danger).

Since Harry saw Voldemort's soul at King's Cross, I think that means that they were there at the same time, before Harry chooses to return. That is why I don't think Harry could have returned if Voldemort did not still have a Horcrux. Dumbledore said that Voldemort needed to survive in order for this to work. I think if he died, it would not work. Harry's choice seems to have come after Voldemort also ended up in Limbo-land, not before. Once Voldemort's soul left the earth and could not return, I don't see how Harry could return.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother
I believe the flaw in the plan that Dumbledore spoke about to Harry in OoTP was that he started caring about Harry too much. Dumbledore was supposed to be detached and logical when it came to the plan and should have seen Harry as a tool to finish Voldemort. As it happened, Dumbledore got fond of Harry, wanted to protect him from pain, wanted to see him happy. Its because of this that Harry did not know about the prophecy earlier. Dumbledore lost sight of the long term goal and cared more for the here and now.
That's an interesting tie-in to Dumbledore's flaw in the plan from OotP. Didn't Dumbledore also say about the Love Room in the Department of Mysteries that love was both a beautiful and terrible thing? I think in DH we are supposed to see the other side of the double-edged sword, where love is a strength instead of a weakness for those that have it: This time, love is the flaw to Voldemort's plan, because he disdains it and doesn't understand it.



Last edited by OldMotherCrow; January 25th, 2010 at 5:12 pm. Reason: typo
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  #131  
Old January 26th, 2010, 5:16 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

It wasn't neccessary for LV to be killed, was it? Like Grindelwald couldn't he have been captured and put in prison for the rest of his life if Harry and Nagini were both dead?


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  #132  
Old January 26th, 2010, 5:37 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

Yes, he could have. Harry offered him that option, in fact. However, as Voldemort was not interested...it did prove necessary, yes.


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