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The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore



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  #141  
Old August 4th, 2009, 10:45 am
Meggy  Female.gif Meggy is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I like Dumbledore and always have. I just think that certain things about him didn't add up.
I'll start by saying how he seems to have the ability to guess everything and normally, he is right. How? How can anyone be that good at guessing, at assuming? I know he guessed a lot about Voldemort, and that's probably justified as I suppose he would have spent a lot of years researching Voldemort, as he knew it was the only way to defeat him was to "understand and learn" about him. But some of his guesses seemed to be just a "guess" based on no solid facts and it seemed a bit unbelievable.

Then, I always found it a bit selfish and odd that Dumbledore expected everyone to "trust" him when he hardlies ever revealed anything about himself. In one way, can anyone really blame people for thinking Dumbledore was a bit nuts? He was very secretive and guarded about his own life, yet expected everyone else to just take his word for things. Especially Harry. He expected Harry to do, listen to, and complete every task or piece of information Dumbledore presented Harry with, and who can blame Harry for being angry and doubting Dumbledore in the Deathly Hallows? Im surprised the doubt didn't come sooner.

Also, the lack of information Dumledore gave Harry, Ron and Hermione was, in my honest opinion, stupid and very foolish. Dumbledore, this great man who had spent many years trying to find out all he could about Voldemort, didn't even tell Harry or the other two ANYTHING about the snitch, the tales, the deluminator? He left them completely in the dark? Why? So they could "learn" by themselves? Choose their own paths in life (in the case of the Hallows)? Dumbledore was so concerned about the wizarding world, yet he wanted Harry to figure everything out and learn by himself? That was foolish. Surely he knew what Harry was up against? Surely Dumbledore knew there was every possibility that the trio would get confused, misunderstand things? And they did on many occasions and if Harry hadn't seen into Voldemort's mind they would never have gotten to Hogwarts on time and never would have found that Horcrux. So nothing really went to Dumbledore's plans, they seemed to find out everything just a little bit too late and it was based on pure luck that Harry knew Voldemort has discovered his destroyed Horcruxes. Infact, the only time Harry and the trio made any progress is when something didn't go to plan. Getting caught at Malfoy's Manor, Harry realised a Horcrux was hidden in Bellatrix's vault, otherwise he never would have known.

And another thing, why did Dumbledore never tell Harry he had to die at the end of Half Blood Prince? Why didn't he tell the truth about the blackened hand? Surely, telling Harry that he would be dying but it would all be planned, would have put Harry's mind at ease? Even if Dumbledore made Harry swear not to tell anyone, and to make it look like he had no idea Dumbledore had planned his death, he still should have trusted him.
Dumbledore knew Harry had been through a few years of hell...watching Cedric die, watching Sirius die, so surely Dumbledore could have told him he was going to die and Snape had to do it? There was every possibility that Harry would be so consumed with grief over DD death in Deathly Hallows that it could have greatly hindered his journey. It makes me question whether DD really was that clever...in some ways I think DD bit off more than he could chew. He took it upon himself to save the wizarding world and pass on his knowledge to Harry..only he didnt pass on anything of real important apart from the Horcruxes and in all honesty, DD was out of his depth.

I will say one thing, atleast J.k Rowling did slightly make up for that in the end. Finally Dumbledore was presented as human, he had his flaws, he wasn't this perfect saint. And for that reason alone I started to think Dumbledore wasn't so bad...it was his flaws and the real truth about him that redeemed him.


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Last edited by Meggy; August 4th, 2009 at 10:56 am.
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  #142  
Old August 4th, 2009, 1:54 pm
Saebel  Female.gif Saebel is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Meggy View Post
And another thing, why did Dumbledore never tell Harry he had to die at the end of Half Blood Prince?
That would have defeated the purpose of a selfless sacrifice, wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by Meggy View Post
I will say one thing, atleast J.k Rowling did slightly make up for that in the end. Finally Dumbledore was presented as human, he had his flaws, he wasn't this perfect saint. And for that reason alone I started to think Dumbledore wasn't so bad...it was his flaws and the real truth about him that redeemed him.
I think the point of the Life and Lies aspect of DH was to reveal to Harry that Dumbledore was a man, and that he was flawed. Prior to that he was a mentor who Harry never considered as anything other than an all-powerful wizard. The revelations of Dumbledore's past came at a time that they were relevant to the story and to Harry's development. They would have been out of place if they'd come any earlier...Dumbledore had a specific role throughout the books, which wouldn't have been met if he'd been merely human.

In really simplistic terms, Dumbledore's actions largely stem from his self-confessed brilliance. He trusted his information and intuition, and couldn't afford to second-guess that. Even he admitted he made mistakes, but that's the benefit of hindsight. He did what he could with what he was given.


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  #143  
Old August 4th, 2009, 2:19 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Meggy View Post
I'll start by saying how he seems to have the ability to guess everything and normally, he is right. How? How can anyone be that good at guessing, at assuming?
I think he did a lot of work on his theories and made sure they would work out properly, that even if there were little snags, the whole outcome would not be affected. The EW is one such thing. He says he knew Voldemort would go after it, after the Graveyard and especially when Ollivander was kidnapped. I think he knew that based on his knowledge of wandlore with respect to Harry and Voldemort's twin cores and why Voldemort would ultimately need a wand that would defeat all other wands.

Guessing Harry would survive, for another example is IMO because he was aware of the blood protection and the magic which it evoked and also knew that as long as Lily's blood lived, Harry would not die.

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Then, I always found it a bit selfish and odd that Dumbledore expected everyone to "trust" him when he hardlies ever revealed anything about himself. In one way, can anyone really blame people for thinking Dumbledore was a bit nuts?
But I think what redeemed him was that if one did not want to trust him or obey him, he respected that with no misgivings. An example would be the SK for the Potters. Dumbledore offered to be SK, but when the Potters did not want him, he respected that, even if he did not like it. He was worried the Books say and yet he respected the Potters decision to name one of their friends as SK.

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I will say one thing, atleast J.k Rowling did slightly make up for that in the end. Finally Dumbledore was presented as human, he had his flaws, he wasn't this perfect saint. And for that reason alone I started to think Dumbledore wasn't so bad...it was his flaws and the real truth about him that redeemed him.


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  #144  
Old August 4th, 2009, 3:40 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Meggy
I like Dumbledore and always have. I just think that certain things about him didn't add up.
I'll start by saying how he seems to have the ability to guess everything and normally, he is right. How? How can anyone be that good at guessing, at assuming? I know he guessed a lot about Voldemort, and that's probably justified as I suppose he would have spent a lot of years researching Voldemort, as he knew it was the only way to defeat him was to "understand and learn" about him. But some of his guesses seemed to be just a "guess" based on no solid facts and it seemed a bit unbelievable.
Dumbledore was an extremely intelligent person. He was able to understand things way better than anybody else. His guesses weren't some random wild ones but educated guesses. He would have put a lot of thought into all of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meggy
Then, I always found it a bit selfish and odd that Dumbledore expected everyone to "trust" him when he hardlies ever revealed anything about himself. In one way, can anyone really blame people for thinking Dumbledore was a bit nuts? He was very secretive and guarded about his own life, yet expected everyone else to just take his word for things. Especially Harry. He expected Harry to do, listen to, and complete every task or piece of information Dumbledore presented Harry with, and who can blame Harry for being angry and doubting Dumbledore in the Deathly Hallows? Im surprised the doubt didn't come sooner.
Dumbledore never forced anyone to trust him. They did it of their own choice. People realized that Dumbledore was the best thing they had to combat Voldemort. His deeds were enough for people to decide whether to trust him or not.

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Originally Posted by Meggy
Also, the lack of information Dumledore gave Harry, Ron and Hermione was, in my honest opinion, stupid and very foolish. Dumbledore, this great man who had spent many years trying to find out all he could about Voldemort, didn't even tell Harry or the other two ANYTHING about the snitch, the tales, the deluminator? He left them completely in the dark? Why? So they could "learn" by themselves? Choose their own paths in life (in the case of the Hallows)? Dumbledore was so concerned about the wizarding world, yet he wanted Harry to figure everything out and learn by himself? That was foolish. Surely he knew what Harry was up against? Surely Dumbledore knew there was every possibility that the trio would get confused, misunderstand things? And they did on many occasions and if Harry hadn't seen into Voldemort's mind they would never have gotten to Hogwarts on time and never would have found that Horcrux. So nothing really went to Dumbledore's plans, they seemed to find out everything just a little bit too late and it was based on pure luck that Harry knew Voldemort has discovered his destroyed Horcruxes. Infact, the only time Harry and the trio made any progress is when something didn't go to plan. Getting caught at Malfoy's Manor, Harry realised a Horcrux was hidden in Bellatrix's vault, otherwise he never would have known.
I doubt Dumbledore knew where the other horcruxes were. He would have told Harry if he knew. I'm not sure what he was supposed to tell about Snitch, tales and the deluminator. It pretty much worked out as he thought it would.

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Originally Posted by Meggy
And another thing, why did Dumbledore never tell Harry he had to die at the end of Half Blood Prince? Why didn't he tell the truth about the blackened hand? Surely, telling Harry that he would be dying but it would all be planned, would have put Harry's mind at ease? Even if Dumbledore made Harry swear not to tell anyone, and to make it look like he had no idea Dumbledore had planned his death, he still should have trusted him.
Dumbledore knew Harry had been through a few years of hell...watching Cedric die, watching Sirius die, so surely Dumbledore could have told him he was going to die and Snape had to do it? There was every possibility that Harry would be so consumed with grief over DD death in Deathly Hallows that it could have greatly hindered his journey. It makes me question whether DD really was that clever...in some ways I think DD bit off more than he could chew. He took it upon himself to save the wizarding world and pass on his knowledge to Harry..only he didnt pass on anything of real important apart from the Horcruxes and in all honesty, DD was out of his depth.
Harry would never have accepted it. Harry wouldn't have believed that story which Dumbledore told Snape. If he did say that he was dying because of the blackened hand, Harry would have thought Snape had done something else instead of curing it. He never trusted Snape even though DD kept repeatedly telling him that he trusted him.
The biggest reason that Dumbledore had for not telling Harry was that Harry was vulnerable to Voldemort because of that connection. Any information he told Harry always had the risk of ending up in Voldemort's head.
Dumbledore also knew Harry well. He knew that Harry wouldn't stop in his goal of defeating Voldemort just because Dumbledore had died just like he knew that Harry would accept death when he was told that he had to die.

I think at the end, given all the problems and the odds, Dumbledore did a fantastic job to help defeat Voldemort.


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  #145  
Old August 4th, 2009, 4:15 pm
Meggy  Female.gif Meggy is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Dumbledore was an extremely intelligent person. He was able to understand things way better than anybody else. His guesses weren't some random wild ones but educated guesses. He would have put a lot of thought into all of it.
Yes Dumbledore was an extremely intelligent person. I absolutely agree and in many ways I can see why he drew those conclusions. However some guesses, seemed to come out of nowhere. Dumbledore and a few others have said themselves that "It's just a guess, but I am usually right at it" or something to that effect. A lot of his guesses you could argue stemmed from all his research on Voldemort, but not all of them. Im not saying it was unrealistic as such, just a bit odd that he could guess most things and get them right. But I suppose he wasn't called the greatest wizard of all time for nothing was he!?



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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Dumbledore never forced anyone to trust him. They did it of their own choice. People realized that Dumbledore was the best thing they had to combat Voldemort. His deeds were enough for people to decide whether to trust him or not.
Yes, they did do it out of choice and no Dumbledore never forced anyone. But it seemed as though he asked a great deal of Harry and the rest without giving them any information of himself. Even Harry himself found this upsetting in the last book, how Dumbledore had failed to tell Harry his families graves were in the same graveyard as his parents. Why would Dumbledore have to keep this? It could have brought about an even bigger bond between Harry and Dumbledore. Im not saying he should of revealed everything about his life, but he could have confided a little better in Harry. But I absolutely understand what you're saying.



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I doubt Dumbledore knew where the other horcruxes were. He would have told Harry if he knew. I'm not sure what he was supposed to tell about Snitch, tales and the deluminator. It pretty much worked out as he thought it would.
No, Im not saying Dumbledore knew where they were but wanted Harry to figure it out himself, as Im pretty sure Dumbledore would have gotten rid of them himself if he knew their location. But he could have said..."Im going to leave you this in my will and this is what it's for". I know Dumbledore wanted them to learn this by themselves but it's not exactly an ideal time to be giving three young adults trying to defeat the darkest wizard of their time lessons in life! As for the Hallows, why did Dumbledore even introduce Harry to those? Had he not give Hermione those books, the Hallows story wouldn't have even come into play. Why would he risk Harry going off track and pursuing the Hallows rather than the Horcruxes? Curiousity? Im not saying Dumbledore was a bad person, he was a great person just some of the things he did don't add up,and by all means feel free to explain them to me. He could have never given Hermione that book and she need never know about the symbol hence Harry would only focus on the Horcruxes. It seemed he was curious as to which path Harry would take...a bit foolish in my opinion as we know Harry was very close to taking the Hallows and if Hermione had died along the way, he probably would have because she wouldnt be there to stop him.





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Harry would never have accepted it. Harry wouldn't have believed that story which Dumbledore told Snape. If he did say that he was dying because of the blackened hand, Harry would have thought Snape had done something else instead of curing it. He never trusted Snape even though DD kept repeatedly telling him that he trusted him.
The biggest reason that Dumbledore had for not telling Harry was that Harry was vulnerable to Voldemort because of that connection. Any information he told Harry always had the risk of ending up in Voldemort's head.
Dumbledore also knew Harry well. He knew that Harry wouldn't stop in his goal of defeating Voldemort just because Dumbledore had died just like he knew that Harry would accept death when he was told that he had to die.

I think at the end, given all the problems and the odds, Dumbledore did a fantastic job to help defeat Voldemort.
But either way Harry was going to hate Snape anyway wasn't he? Atleast by telling him that he was going to die and Snape would do it, as much as he might think Snape did it on purpose, he still might have had his doubts.
I understand about the connection though, and for that reason alone I'll have to agree that it was probably wise not to tell Harry as it could have risked everything. Voldemort would have suspected Snape and possibly killed him. Although Dumbledore told Harry about the Horcruxes didnt he? Voldemort could have easily invaded Harry's mind and discovered the Horcrux secret had been discovered. And everything Dumbledore told him about the prophecy back in the order of the phoenix, which is when Harrys mind was most vulnerable, so Dumbledore risked it then so why not now?

I do think Dumbledore was a great person, absolutely. I admire him. But there were a few things he did which were questionable. But then, that just makes him human


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Last edited by Meggy; August 4th, 2009 at 4:17 pm.
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  #146  
Old August 4th, 2009, 8:54 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Meggy
Yes Dumbledore was an extremely intelligent person. I absolutely agree and in many ways I can see why he drew those conclusions. However some guesses, seemed to come out of nowhere. Dumbledore and a few others have said themselves that "It's just a guess, but I am usually right at it" or something to that effect. A lot of his guesses you could argue stemmed from all his research on Voldemort, but not all of them. Im not saying it was unrealistic as such, just a bit odd that he could guess most things and get them right. But I suppose he wasn't called the greatest wizard of all time for nothing was he!?
Dumbledore knew about other people as well, not just Voldemort. He was able to understand people very well. He knew their nature, how they would react in a given situation etc. I'd say that he understood more about a person than the person did so himself. For example, Ron would IMO never have thought that he would desert Harry. He would have vigorously denied it. But Dumbledore knew that it was a possibility and gave him the deluminator so that he would be able to find a way back. I'm pretty sure that Voldemort was also good with guesses but it probably failed more times because knowledge was incomplete (he could never understand love etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meggy
Yes, they did do it out of choice and no Dumbledore never forced anyone. But it seemed as though he asked a great deal of Harry and the rest without giving them any information of himself. Even Harry himself found this upsetting in the last book, how Dumbledore had failed to tell Harry his families graves were in the same graveyard as his parents. Why would Dumbledore have to keep this? It could have brought about an even bigger bond between Harry and Dumbledore. Im not saying he should of revealed everything about his life, but he could have confided a little better in Harry. But I absolutely understand what you're saying.
I think he was just secretive by nature and never did share much with people. He never had a peer to bounce ideas off and everyone saw him as a mentor, leader etc. It probably made him even more secretive. He probably could have told people a little bit more though. He seemed to prefer to err on the side of too little information than too much info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meggy
No, Im not saying Dumbledore knew where they were but wanted Harry to figure it out himself, as Im pretty sure Dumbledore would have gotten rid of them himself if he knew their location. But he could have said..."Im going to leave you this in my will and this is what it's for". I know Dumbledore wanted them to learn this by themselves but it's not exactly an ideal time to be giving three young adults trying to defeat the darkest wizard of their time lessons in life! As for the Hallows, why did Dumbledore even introduce Harry to those? Had he not give Hermione those books, the Hallows story wouldn't have even come into play. Why would he risk Harry going off track and pursuing the Hallows rather than the Horcruxes? Curiousity? Im not saying Dumbledore was a bad person, he was a great person just some of the things he did don't add up,and by all means feel free to explain them to me. He could have never given Hermione that book and she need never know about the symbol hence Harry would only focus on the Horcruxes. It seemed he was curious as to which path Harry would take...a bit foolish in my opinion as we know Harry was very close to taking the Hallows and if Hermione had died along the way, he probably would have because she wouldnt be there to stop him.
This is pretty good question. I had originally thought that Dumbledore had planned for the Elder Wand to play a part in defeating Voldemort. But we find out that Dumbledore wanted the power of the wand to die along with him.
I guess one reason is that he wanted Harry to know that the ring was inside the snitch so that he could use it as a help when he was going to sacrifice himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meggy
But either way Harry was going to hate Snape anyway wasn't he? Atleast by telling him that he was going to die and Snape would do it, as much as he might think Snape did it on purpose, he still might have had his doubts.
I understand about the connection though, and for that reason alone I'll have to agree that it was probably wise not to tell Harry as it could have risked everything. Voldemort would have suspected Snape and possibly killed him. Although Dumbledore told Harry about the Horcruxes didnt he? Voldemort could have easily invaded Harry's mind and discovered the Horcrux secret had been discovered. And everything Dumbledore told him about the prophecy back in the order of the phoenix, which is when Harrys mind was most vulnerable, so Dumbledore risked it then so why not now?

I do think Dumbledore was a great person, absolutely. I admire him. But there were a few things he did which were questionable. But then, that just makes him human
We don't know what Harry would have done. He might have tried to stop Snape somehow. As for the Horcruxes, Dumbledore had no choice but to tell Harry. It was a risk he had to take. He was going to die and nobody other than him knew that Voldemort had made so many. Voldemort could also have found out about it any time on his own by checking his horcruxes.

You know, I think that Dumbledore probably intended to tell Harry more stuff. Dumbledore's death came suddenly and was unexpected. He thought it virtually impossible for death eaters to get into Hogwarts. IMO he'd have planned to die in a much quieter setting where the date and time was decided beforehand.


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  #147  
Old August 5th, 2009, 9:30 pm
Meggy  Female.gif Meggy is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Dumbledore knew about other people as well, not just Voldemort. He was able to understand people very well. He knew their nature, how they would react in a given situation etc. I'd say that he understood more about a person than the person did so himself. For example, Ron would IMO never have thought that he would desert Harry. He would have vigorously denied it. But Dumbledore knew that it was a possibility and gave him the deluminator so that he would be able to find a way back. I'm pretty sure that Voldemort was also good with guesses but it probably failed more times because knowledge was incomplete (he could never understand love etc).
Yes you're right. But that's exactly what I mean. How could he, Dumbledore, have possibly known Ron would have walked away? How could he have garunteed Hermione would stay? What evidence did Dumbledore ever have to say Hermione was more loyal than Ron (in that respect)? Dumbledore didnt have much to do with Ron or Hermione over the years and Harry never really discussed his friendship with Dumbledore, yet somehow Dumbledore knew Ron would be the one to walk away? He guessed? How? He had little to no evidence of that and that was my point. His guesses are mostly accurate..but sometimes I dont understand how anyone could have guessed that. I don't even think the fans could have guessed that Ron would storm off. I know I was shocked when I first read it.



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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
I think he was just secretive by nature and never did share much with people. He never had a peer to bounce ideas off and everyone saw him as a mentor, leader etc. It probably made him even more secretive. He probably could have told people a little bit more though. He seemed to prefer to err on the side of too little information than too much info.
Yeah I do agree here. I suppose he was the mentor of the wizarding world..and maybe people would have gotten a little bit suspicious or confused if Dumbledore showed his weaknesses and flaws to them. The incredible thing about him was, to people, he seemed very strong and together and people want somebody like that leading them. So I do agree there.
But perhaps he could have given Harry a teeny bit more information



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This is pretty good question. I had originally thought that Dumbledore had planned for the Elder Wand to play a part in defeating Voldemort. But we find out that Dumbledore wanted the power of the wand to die along with him.
I guess one reason is that he wanted Harry to know that the ring was inside the snitch so that he could use it as a help when he was going to sacrifice himself.
Yeah that's what confuses me. He introduced Harry to the Hallows and risked him choosing that path. Lets face it, whilst it was always likely Hermione would stop him, we couldn't say for sure she would and if she died, she couldn'tn have anyway. He could have just informed Harry about the ring but warned him the dangers of bringing people back into a world they no longer exist in. I think it was very risky and overall unneccesary for the Hallows to ever have been introduced. The most important thing was beating Voldemort and Dumbledore took a great risk.



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We don't know what Harry would have done. He might have tried to stop Snape somehow. As for the Horcruxes, Dumbledore had no choice but to tell Harry. It was a risk he had to take. He was going to die and nobody other than him knew that Voldemort had made so many. Voldemort could also have found out about it any time on his own by checking his horcruxes.

You know, I think that Dumbledore probably intended to tell Harry more stuff. Dumbledore's death came suddenly and was unexpected. He thought it virtually impossible for death eaters to get into Hogwarts. IMO he'd have planned to die in a much quieter setting where the date and time was decided beforehand.
Yeah, I do think perhaps had the death eaters not have gotten into the castle, then Dumbledore might have set a date for his death and most likely would have filled Harry in on a bit more information.

In the end though, Dumbledore was a fantastic person and helped greatly in defeating Voldemort! X


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  #148  
Old August 6th, 2009, 5:48 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Yes you're right. But that's exactly what I mean. How could he, Dumbledore, have possibly known Ron would have walked away? How could he have garunteed Hermione would stay? What evidence did Dumbledore ever have to say Hermione was more loyal than Ron (in that respect)? Dumbledore didnt have much to do with Ron or Hermione over the years and Harry never really discussed his friendship with Dumbledore, yet somehow Dumbledore knew Ron would be the one to walk away? He guessed? How? He had little to no evidence of that and that was my point. His guesses are mostly accurate..but sometimes I dont understand how anyone could have guessed that. I don't even think the fans could have guessed that Ron would storm off. I know I was shocked when I first read it.
I think he kept a very close eye on Harry and his friends. He would have also got input from the staff about Ron and Hermione.
IMO Dumbledore knew pretty much all about what was happening at school. I think he paid attention to all the students, what was happening etc. As Voldemort said, he was somewhat omniscient.
Dumbledore was able to figure out about Harry right from the first book. He knew about Neville's nature at the end of the book. He knew that Draco was not a killer etc.
A lot of people didn't expect Ron (Harry, Hermione, fans included) to desert them. It need not have happened but Dumbledore understood his nature and knew that it was a possibility and gave him the deluminator just in case that happened. The fact that Dumbledore understood Ron's nature as well as others so well can be directly attributed to his superior intelligence.

If Ron hadn't deserted Harry, there would have been posts here wondering why Dumbledore gave Ron the deluminator.


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  #149  
Old August 6th, 2009, 6:35 pm
Meggy  Female.gif Meggy is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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I think he kept a very close eye on Harry and his friends. He would have also got input from the staff about Ron and Hermione.
IMO Dumbledore knew pretty much all about what was happening at school. I think he paid attention to all the students, what was happening etc. As Voldemort said, he was somewhat omniscient.
Dumbledore was able to figure out about Harry right from the first book. He knew about Neville's nature at the end of the book. He knew that Draco was not a killer etc.
A lot of people didn't expect Ron (Harry, Hermione, fans included) to desert them. It need not have happened but Dumbledore understood his nature and knew that it was a possibility and gave him the deluminator just in case that happened. The fact that Dumbledore understood Ron's nature as well as others so well can be directly attributed to his superior intelligence.

If Ron hadn't deserted Harry, there would have been posts here wondering why Dumbledore gave Ron the deluminator.
That's true! I suppose you could say Dumbledore was just a very observant person who studied people a lot more than they could ever have imagined. Only he didn't let them know he was studying them. After all, he wouldn't be called the greatest wizard in the world for nothing

I wonder what would have happened though if Dumbledore had told them the nature of the objects he left in his will. Imagine Dumbledore saying "Ron, I give you this because you are most likely to desert Harry, but should you ever need to find them, just use this". I think Ron would have been furious and it probably would have either:
A) Caused big arguments as Ron would think Dumbledore thought Ron was a coward
B) Prevent Ron from ever storming off. Probably out of determination to prove Dumbledore wrong

Thanks for the great mini-debate!! I've realised a few things a bit clearer now!!


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  #150  
Old July 5th, 2011, 3:07 pm
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Did Dumbledore knew everything and wanted Voldemort back?

I do not know where to put the thread, but place it here.

Have wondered about something. Would Dumbledore really that Voldemort would come back? Did Dumbledore that Harry's parents die, etc.? In book 4's telling Harry about the dreams he had had with Lord Voldemort, Wormtail and Bart Croach jr. And it does not look like that Dumbledore is so afraid of them, that he at all care. He should surely have known that this trophy in the Goblet of Fire was transformed into a portkey.

Dumbledore's an incredibly smart man. But why in the hell he sent two teachers, one who had Voldemort in the neck, and another that was the death eater become teachers? Inspected not Dumbledore teachers he takes in, did not Dumbledore that when the "sky" noise in the Goblet of Fire when Madeye came in was a sign that a death eater put their mark on the Hogwart? He ought to have known something. He ought also to have known that all the Lock Heart has written in the books was something he had done.

Dumbledore is a very smart man, so he must have known something when he trusted Snape all the time.


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  #151  
Old July 5th, 2011, 8:57 pm
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Did Dumbledore knew everything and wanted Voldemort back?

I do not know where to put this thread, but place it here.

It's something I've wondered for a few days. Did Dumbleroe about everything and would Dumbledore have Voldemort back? Would Dumbledore that James and Liluy should be killed to get harry highlighted to find out who out of Harry and Long Bottom that would be the chosen one? Dumbledore was a very smart character, he knew far more than Voldemort and others when it was Voldemort himself, prophecy, etc. So how could Dumbledore not see that one of the teachers had Voldemort in the back of the head and another was a death eater in disguise when the fake sky in big overalls made ​​the sound (the film) who reported that a death eater was at Hogwart.

Dumbledore should surely have known that trophy in the 3 tretrollmanndsutfordringer in book 4 was transformed into a portkey. Undersækte not that everything was well set up, etc.? And in book 4 when Harry tells Dumbledore about his Destruction so says the Dumbledore that he should stop thinking of them. Dumbledore has to help Harry. His dreams showed only the plans of Voldemort.


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  #152  
Old July 19th, 2011, 3:43 am
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Dumbledore's Uncharacteristic Response

During a portion of the Prince's Tale, we observe a scene where Snape is pleading for the life of Lily Potter. He begs Dumbledore to hide her and her family and keep them safe. Dumbledore's response seemed very peculiar.

Quote:
“Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her — them — safe. Please.”
“And what will you give me in return, Severus?” (Dumbledore)
Now it may be that I've just read it too many times and I'm nitpicking at insignificant things, but this seemed very uncharacteristic of Dumbledore's general attitude. It sounds almost as if he wouldn't help them if Snape had nothing of value to offer... as if he would simply let them die... Suppose Snape has responded with "not a damn thing."

Would just like to hear how others interpreted this scene.


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  #153  
Old July 19th, 2011, 8:14 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Uncharacteristic Response

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Now it may be that I've just read it too many times and I'm nitpicking at insignificant things, but this seemed very uncharacteristic of Dumbledore's general attitude. It sounds almost as if he wouldn't help them if Snape had nothing of value to offer... as if he would simply let them die... Suppose Snape has responded with "not a damn thing."
My own feeling was that Snape was as surprised by the question as you. Why would the leader of the opposition to Voldemort NOT take steps to protect "The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord", after all? It makes no sense.

For this reason, it is my opinion that Dumbledore would have protected the Potters regardless. I think he asked the question, because he wanted to see what Snape would say.


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  #154  
Old July 19th, 2011, 4:10 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Uncharacteristic Response

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My own feeling was that Snape was as surprised by the question as you. Why would the leader of the opposition to Voldemort NOT take steps to protect "The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord", after all? It makes no sense.

For this reason, it is my opinion that Dumbledore would have protected the Potters regardless. I think he asked the question, because he wanted to see what Snape would say.
That's pretty much what I'd have said! I don't think Dumbledore would ever have left the Potters in a danger he had been warned of and not done something to help them. They were after all in the Order of the Phoenix and he would have known them well. I think his question was to shake up Snape and get him to question what he was doing and what results it was having, and getting him to accept some responsibility for it by expecting him to do something about it. A ploy that in fact worked very well IMO.


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  #155  
Old July 19th, 2011, 4:15 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

But when did Dumbledore hear the prophecy? Was it after Lily and James death?


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  #156  
Old July 19th, 2011, 5:03 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Uncharacteristic Response

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Originally Posted by horcrux4
I think his question was to shake up Snape and get him to question what he was doing and what results it was having, and getting him to accept some responsibility for it by expecting him to do something about it. A ploy that in fact worked very well IMO.
I agree. Additionally, though, I think the question was partly to test and guarantee Snape's authenticity. Snape replying with, "Anything" showed Dumbledore that Snape was truly genuine: genuine in his love for Lily and genuine in the belief that Voldemort was, indeed, targeting Harry Potter.

Understanding Snape's true loyalty (i.e. to Lily), I also think Dumbledore recognized an opportunity in employing Snape that was too good to pass up. Snape's devotion to Lily (and, by extension, willingness to help protect her, James, and Harry, as well as turn against Voldemort) made Snape a valuable asset. I believe Dumbledore realized, at that moment, some of the uses to which he could put Snape, and Snape's reply to Dumbledore's question assured Dumbledore that Snape would be willing to turn into a spy for the Order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fantomena
But when did Dumbledore hear the prophecy? Was it after Lily and James death?
No, the prophecy was told to Dumbledore by Trelawney (and simultaneously partly overheard by Snape) before Lily and James' deaths. Snape relaying the partial prophecy to Voldemort is what drove Voldemort to seek and attack the Potters. Thus, Dumbledore had also heard the prophecy, and Snape tipped Dumbledore off about Voldemort's intent, before Voldemort could get hold of Lily and James (which he still did, but after the Potters' Fidelius Charm had broken).


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  #157  
Old July 19th, 2011, 8:23 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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I like Dumbledore and always have. I just think that certain things about him didn't add up.
I'll start by saying how he seems to have the ability to guess everything and normally, he is right. How? How can anyone be that good at guessing, at assuming? I know he guessed a lot about Voldemort, and that's probably justified as I suppose he would have spent a lot of years researching Voldemort, as he knew it was the only way to defeat him was to "understand and learn" about him. But some of his guesses seemed to be just a "guess" based on no solid facts and it seemed a bit unbelievable.
Not all his guesses were correct, but most were. Thats where his great power was, DD was a master at reading people and circumstance.

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Originally Posted by Meggy View Post
Then, I always found it a bit selfish and odd that Dumbledore expected everyone to "trust" him when he hardlies ever revealed anything about himself. In one way, can anyone really blame people for thinking Dumbledore was a bit nuts? He was very secretive and guarded about his own life, yet expected everyone else to just take his word for things. Especially Harry. He expected Harry to do, listen to, and complete every task or piece of information Dumbledore presented Harry with, and who can blame Harry for being angry and doubting Dumbledore in the Deathly Hallows? Im surprised the doubt didn't come sooner.
Isnt every student meant to trust their teachers without any knowledge of their private lives etc?

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Also, the lack of information Dumledore gave Harry, Ron and Hermione was, in my honest opinion, stupid and very foolish. Dumbledore, this great man who had spent many years trying to find out all he could about Voldemort, didn't even tell Harry or the other two ANYTHING about the snitch, the tales, the deluminator? He left them completely in the dark? Why? So they could "learn" by themselves? Choose their own paths in life (in the case of the Hallows)? Dumbledore was so concerned about the wizarding world, yet he wanted Harry to figure everything out and learn by himself? That was foolish. Surely he knew what Harry was up against? Surely Dumbledore knew there was every possibility that the trio would get confused, misunderstand things? And they did on many occasions and if Harry hadn't seen into Voldemort's mind they would never have gotten to Hogwarts on time and never would have found that Horcrux. So nothing really went to Dumbledore's plans, they seemed to find out everything just a little bit too late and it was based on pure luck that Harry knew Voldemort has discovered his destroyed Horcruxes. Infact, the only time Harry and the trio made any progress is when something didn't go to plan. Getting caught at Malfoy's Manor, Harry realised a Horcrux was hidden in Bellatrix's vault, otherwise he never would have known.

And another thing, why did Dumbledore never tell Harry he had to die at the end of Half Blood Prince? Why didn't he tell the truth about the blackened hand? Surely, telling Harry that he would be dying but it would all be planned, would have put Harry's mind at ease? Even if Dumbledore made Harry swear not to tell anyone, and to make it look like he had no idea Dumbledore had planned his death, he still should have trusted him.
Dumbledore knew Harry had been through a few years of hell...watching Cedric die, watching Sirius die, so surely Dumbledore could have told him he was going to die and Snape had to do it? There was every possibility that Harry would be so consumed with grief over DD death in Deathly Hallows that it could have greatly hindered his journey. It makes me question whether DD really was that clever...in some ways I think DD bit off more than he could chew. He took it upon himself to save the wizarding world and pass on his knowledge to Harry..only he didnt pass on anything of real important apart from the Horcruxes and in all honesty, DD was out of his depth.
Dont know how you came to this conclusion to be quite honest. Everything the trio needed Dumbledore gave them, remember he didnt know exactly when he was going to die so he had his will as a back up. Ultimately everything worked out, so Dumbledore was obviously right to leave them such little infomation, he trusted in their ability and they proved him right.

How was it foolish? His plan worked, the trio destroyed the horcruxes and then Harry finished it all by killing Voldemort. So his plan worked.

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Originally Posted by Meggy View Post
I will say one thing, atleast J.k Rowling did slightly make up for that in the end. Finally Dumbledore was presented as human, he had his flaws, he wasn't this perfect saint. And for that reason alone I started to think Dumbledore wasn't so bad...it was his flaws and the real truth about him that redeemed him.
JK didnt have anything to make up for, everything Dumbledore did worked out for the best. His plans would only have been ''foolish'' had they failed and had he predicted the trio's success wrongly, but he didnt and they successfully fulfilled the task he set out for them.


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  #158  
Old July 20th, 2011, 12:17 am
lumoshemuttered  Female.gif lumoshemuttered is offline
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Re: Did Dumbledore knew everything and wanted Voldemort back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fantomena View Post
I do not know where to put the thread, but place it here.

Have wondered about something. Would Dumbledore really that Voldemort would come back? Did Dumbledore that Harry's parents die, etc.? In book 4's telling Harry about the dreams he had had with Lord Voldemort, Wormtail and Bart Croach jr. And it does not look like that Dumbledore is so afraid of them, that he at all care. He should surely have known that this trophy in the Goblet of Fire was transformed into a portkey.

Dumbledore's an incredibly smart man. But why in the hell he sent two teachers, one who had Voldemort in the neck, and another that was the death eater become teachers? Inspected not Dumbledore teachers he takes in, did not Dumbledore that when the "sky" noise in the Goblet of Fire when Madeye came in was a sign that a death eater put their mark on the Hogwart? He ought to have known something. He ought also to have known that all the Lock Heart has written in the books was something he had done.

Dumbledore is a very smart man, so he must have known something when he trusted Snape all the time.
Dumbledore always knew that Voldemort was going to come back, eventually. When Harry told him about his dreams, I think Dumbledore saw them as confirmation for what he already knew was coming. I didn't get the impression that he didn't care. He didn't tell Harry to quit worrying about it; he questioned him about exactly what Harry saw in his dreams.

And I honestly don't think Dumbledore suspected that Moody was not the real Moody. He is extremely intelligent and perceptive, but I don't believe he knew it was an impostor until after Cedric died; he says something along the lines of "the real Alastor Moody would have never let you out of my sight tonight". This, it seems, is what tips him off. As for Quirrell, we see in The Prince's Tale that Dumbledore tells Snape to "keep an eye on Quirrell, will you?". Again, I don't think he knew that Voldemort was literally on the back of his head, but he did realize that something was suspicious there.


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