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The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore



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  #21  
Old August 27th, 2007, 5:45 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

the ultimate news about DD as the big puppet player strucked me. i really cant see the character with the same eyes as before anymore. piton was right, he used him, and he even used harry, though he seemed to love him. in the end it was for the greater good, but the nonchalance with which he went through all of this shocks me much.


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..."But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"
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From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe: she landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears.
"After all this time?"
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  #22  
Old March 2nd, 2008, 11:29 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Wright1771 View Post
Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry everything......what if it fell into enemy hands?
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Originally Posted by dorette View Post
the ultimate news about DD as the big puppet player strucked me. i really cant see the character with the same eyes as before anymore. piton was right, he used him, and he even used harry, though he seemed to love him. in the end it was for the greater good, but the nonchalance with which he went through all of this shocks me much.
I agree. I think to some extent it has ended my emotional attachement to the series.

Dumbledore is the worst kind of villian, one that preaches good.

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Originally Posted by EllieSnowmantle View Post
I agree with this Dumbledore did realise what Harry was getting into, and I believe he truly did care for Harry. Even though it appears like Dumbledore was just using him to defeat Voldermort, he believed in Harry, and out of every single person in the wizarding world, I think Dumbledore was one of those people that truly 100% believed in Harry.
I get that Dumbledore loved Harry. But it doesn't make him any less manipulative. In a lot of ways I think his love for Harry makes his acts even more dispicable.

Again I don't doubt that the plan worked. But it was all a part of his plan. He did this to Harry as much a Voldemort did.

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Originally Posted by Rell View Post
I don't think Dumbledore is nearly as horrible as Rita Skeeter makes him seem. I think that Dumbledore had some horrible choices to make, and he did the best he could under the circumstances. And, I think he really did love Harry, but he couldn't tell Harry everything or all of his plans would go wrong. Harry really had to believe that he was going to die in order to live
Obviously Rita Skeeter is a toad. But when you say "Dumbledore had some horrible choices to make" do you mean who should risk there life and when? Because that is what he did. He manipulated an 11 year old boy to face the greatest dark wizard of all time one on one.

Because the plan worked (with MANY deaths in its wake) people forgive Dumbledore. I can't because he conceived of the plan and enacted it.

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Originally Posted by Moldywart View Post
The "keep an eye on Quirrell" comment shows that DD was the ultimate planner, but not everything went according to plan. He would've never allowed Draco to get Death Eaters in to the school if he thought Draco would succeed. He didn't want anyone to die unnecessarily. I don't think he knew about Imposter Moody. He seemed pretty shocked when he found out that it was really Barty Crouch Jr. He asked questions to Imposter Moody under veritaserum that he wouldn't have asked had he already known the answers.

Also, you have to figure that the plan changed. He didn't expect VM to use Harry's blood, and he didn't know about the horcruxes until CoS and VM's little speech in the graveyard. His plan even backfired regarding the Elder Wand, but in Harry's favor.

Even though the plan changed, he was a master planner. His foresight into what he left the trio was amazing. He knew that Ron would need the deluminator and that Hermione was clever enough to figure out the Hallows story without giving away too much to the Ministry. It makes me wonder about his conversation with Harry in his office at the end of OotP. He didn't want to tell Harry the truth, but maybe that was all part of his master plan...to tell him everything he needed to know at that point.
Yes yes and yes.

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I think Dumbledore was the ultimate planner, but he couldn't always foresee the problems that ended up occurring, or other things that might interfere with his plans. I don't think he knew exactly that Quirrell had Voldemort sticking out the back of his head, but he definately knew that he was up to something. Dumbledore is usually good at guessing things, but some things you just can't ever imagine guessing correctly.
I wish I could believe, as you do, that Dumbledore's plan was that shortsighted, and not the orchestral bloodbath that lead up to and beyond the gleam of triumph

Re read the series, I beseech you all. Dumbledore FLAUNTS the fact that he is well aware of Horcruxes and Harry's envitable fate. He turned a child into a tool of distruction. He is the ultimate villian.


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  #23  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 1:39 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I certainly lost a lot of respect for DD. Here was a rival of Yoda, Gandalf, Aslan etc all those classic benevolent father figures and yet he was the ultimate planner and manipualtor. Used Harry all along, and Snape.
Sure it was all for a good cause, but think of how many people died or were affected by DD's plans, is it morally OK to be the puppet master if you're on the good side ? The end justifies the means ?



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  #24  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 4:36 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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  #25  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 8:31 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by snuka View Post
I certainly lost a lot of respect for DD. Here was a rival of Yoda, Gandalf, Aslan etc all those classic benevolent father figures and yet he was the ultimate planner and manipualtor. Used Harry all along, and Snape.
Sure it was all for a good cause, but think of how many people died or were affected by DD's plans, is it morally OK to be the puppet master if you're on the good side ? The end justifies the means ?



Well... aren't some of the great 'old white bearded man' figures in other stories not playing similar roles?

What about Gandalf giving Bilbo that nudge out of the door, because he had a hunch that something crucial would come of it? And later on, when he basically sends Frodo on an errand that he is hardly likely to survive?



That's the role of these sorts of characters - because stories of this kind work best if you have an inexperienced young hero who finds his strength - and the old wizardy types that guide them are of course acting as teachers, but very often they also have a big aim (save the world or something) and carefully set their protege on the path for the big conflict.


Dumbledore, seen in the context of such a tradition, seems comparatively concerned about his hero (look at Gandalf/Elrond and Frodo in comparison!!).


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  #26  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 9:29 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I still consider Dumbledore as a very good wise man. He risked Harry's life but Harry still made it out of there alive. Dumbledore knew what he was doing and ... and ... he apologized.

Even if Dumbledore used Harry and Snape he still did a lot for them and Hogwarts. He was still a great wizard and kind, true and honest ...


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  #27  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 9:56 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I know this post is from forever ago, but.
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I truly hate dumbledore now. From the word go he saw Harry as nothing more than a means to an end to defeat Voldemort, and, even when Harry was only 11 years old, he allowed him to face off against the greatest dark wizard that ever lived. To train him up? To see if the prophecy was true? Whatever the reason, this throws Dumbledore in a completely new light.
To me, the underlined part sums it up. Dumbledore allowed Harry to face Voldemort. He didn't force him to or even ask him to. He did absolutely nothing to influence Harry's decision. Harry was only 11, and he was already doing something so incredibley heroic and courageous; I think this showed Dumbledore a lot (mainly, the fact that even at age 11, Harry was willing to risk his life to stop Voldemort). It's the same in Harry's second year; nobody asked Harry to try to solve the mystery, to go into the Chamber, to save Ginny...but Harry chose to, on his own free will. Dumbledore may have been manipulative and controlling, but he didn't manipulate anyone into doing anything they weren't already willing to do (as in, he may have manipulated Snape, but Snape said he would do anything to help Dumbledore protect Lily).
In DH, Dumbledore informed Harry that he needed to die before Voldemort could be killed, but he did nothing more than inform him. Harry made his own decision to let Voldemort kill him. Dumbledore didn't manipulate or trick him into it, but merely told him the way things were.
On top of this, even if a lot of Dumbledore's plans were merely guesses, all we know is that he ended up being right when it came to the important things. Harry lived, Voldemort didn't, the end.


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  #28  
Old March 4th, 2008, 6:29 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

Sorry, but I cannot see hating Dumbledore unless you only read as far as Snape challenging him in Snape's memory. Snape belives that Dumbledore has raised Harry just to die at the right time, and Dumbledore doesn't give Snape any reason to doubt it. For the same reason he was reluctant to tell him about the horcruxes. But JKR does tell us.

She told us not only that Dumbledore loved Harry, but also, that he told Harry he didn't have to fulfull the prophecy. But More importantly, not only did he try to prepare Harry to play Voldemort's horcrux game, but he went much farther, with the Hallows quest.

Because of Voldemort's belief in the Prophecy, Dumbledore had no choice. The only way for Harry to survive would be the destruction of the Horcruxes. But, that in turn implied Harry's death. If Dumbledore had left things there, some of the criticism of him might be justified. But apparently many readers haven't realized the the point of the Hallows, except as a device for JKR to keep Harry alive at the end.

I have long contended that Dumbledore would not have allowed his own death to keep him from seeing Harry through this as well as he could. He would have had a plan. The Hallows quest demonstrates this to be true. Snape didn't know about the Hallows quest, but we do. The Hallows quest was Dumbledore's way to treat Harry, not merely as the means to an end (as Snape sees it) but rather as an end in himself. The Hallows quest allows Dumbledore's character to remain true throughout the time frame of the series. It allows him a chance to save Harry from Voldemort despite Voldemort's belief in the prophecy.

He didn't tell Harry to collect the Hallows. He didn't tell Harry to let Voldemort have the wand. He let Harry figure it out himself, using Hermione to force him to take his time and think it through.


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  #29  
Old March 4th, 2008, 2:29 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Klio View Post
Well... aren't some of the great 'old white bearded man' figures in other stories not playing similar roles?

What about Gandalf giving Bilbo that nudge out of the door, because he had a hunch that something crucial would come of it? And later on, when he basically sends Frodo on an errand that he is hardly likely to survive?



That's the role of these sorts of characters - because stories of this kind work best if you have an inexperienced young hero who finds his strength - and the old wizardy types that guide them are of course acting as teachers, but very often they also have a big aim (save the world or something) and carefully set their protege on the path for the big conflict.


Dumbledore, seen in the context of such a tradition, seems comparatively concerned about his hero (look at Gandalf/Elrond and Frodo in comparison!!).
Gandalf didn't manipulate anyone, and he certainly didn't pull any strings. And his care for everything Hobbit is in the books.


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  #30  
Old March 4th, 2008, 7:44 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Gandalf didn't manipulate anyone, and he certainly didn't pull any strings. And his care for everything Hobbit is in the books.
Have you seen the background story to the Hobbit in Unfinished Tales? And what I said doesn't mean that he didn't CARE! Of course he did - but arguably he cared about the whole of Middle Earth even more - and this was his one shot.....



Anyway - there is a very find line between 'manipulating' and 'guiding' because in such stories the young and/or inexperienced hero inevitably will have to face something very dangerous - what else is the point of the story?


Ultimately, Dumbledore has to make a very difficult choice, too..... clearly, Harry is almost destined to be involved with the downfall of Voldemort. Of course, JKR always leaves him a choice (less sophisticated fantasy books that follow this pattern often don't leave the hero a choice - check everythung David Eddings ever wrote).... but Harry as a person makes the choicce to be involved.

Yes, Dumbledore sets various things in motion to get Harry into 'The Forest Again' .... the question is: if he had asked Harry a few years earlier whether he wanted to do that, what would Harry have answered?

Harry puts himself into very dangerous positions as well - both in PS and COS certainly..... yes, Dumbledore let it happen, but Harry went to face adventures knowning fully well how dangerous it was....

In some ways, Harry is a more willing hero than many in stories of that type.


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  #31  
Old March 5th, 2008, 3:49 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I agree with the Gandalf analogy, Klio.

Gandalf and Elrond were willing to let Frodo go on what really was a suicide mission for the greater good. Of course Frodo chose that mission of his own free will: nobody coerced him. All the same: it was a tough call, and both Gandalf and Elrond knew it. It was war. War is tough.

I have since come to regard Albus a great deal more kindly since DH.

I think he is manipulative, and certainly not perfect, and I do find some of his decisions questionable ... but that makes him all the more interesting as a character.

And I do think he cared greatly for Harry.

And I think he cared for Severus too.

I think that JKR has done something very interesting and unique with the benevolent wizard mentor figure, which Albus of course represents. He comes from a long tradition.

And of course it's worth remembering that the uber-wizard of Arthurian legend, Merlin himself (who is the ultimate reference point for Rowling's British wizarding community), was far more cold and manipulative than Albus ever is.


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  #32  
Old March 5th, 2008, 9:01 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Klio View Post
Have you seen the background story to the Hobbit in Unfinished Tales?
Yes, all he did was talk to the elf in charge and draw a sign on Bilbo's door. And he didn't have anything to do with Frodo's decision that he will bear the Ring. (in light of no other candidates)


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  #33  
Old March 5th, 2008, 9:41 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I don't like Dumbledore as much as I did before DH mostly cause I don't like manipulators but he was still a great (and powerful) wizard.


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  #34  
Old March 5th, 2008, 10:35 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by snuka View Post
Gandalf didn't manipulate anyone, and he certainly didn't pull any strings. And his care for everything Hobbit is in the books.
Actually Gandalf used everybody in the Hobbit. He wanted to get Smaug out of the Castle because he was worried that Sauron would use him. He only wanted to bring a hobbit along because he knew that Smaug would not recognize the smell of a hobbit, therefore he would be useful to sneak around the castle.

Back on topic, I have no less respect for Dumbledore than I did before the Deathly Hallows. He did nothing wrong, he was merely the so called general who was forced to make the difficult decisions. The only major mistake he made was not telling Harry about the prophecy earlier. In my opinion, he could have hardly made better decisions regarding Harry.


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  #35  
Old March 5th, 2008, 11:48 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Yes, all he did was talk to the elf in charge and draw a sign on Bilbo's door. And he didn't have anything to do with Frodo's decision that he will bear the Ring. (in light of no other candidates)
I'll respectfully disagree.... it isn't that simple.... he did all these things you are mentioning - but he KNEW what the consequences would be, and that he would push Bilbo out of his comfort zone (even if arguably he also know that deep down. Bilbo would enjoy being pushed).

With Frodo things are a little different, because he was running out of candidates rather fast - but arguable a different decision could have been made in Rivendell, and a decision like that may have seemed more 'logical' at the time. Of course, we as readers know much more, and know that Frodo was probably the only one who had a faint chance.



I don't want to get this off track, but I do think that the LotR comparison is a useful analogy to think with..... With hindsight we can see that once Harry was marked by V he was probably also the only one who could possibly have won this one!

Dumbledore (like Gandalf) sees this, or rather, he realises it over the years - and he makes sure that Harry isn't just destined, but also has as much help as possible (knowledge, certain skills, etc).

I do think that Dumbledore should have filled in Harry earlier on everything that might happen, and on his role in the whole affair.... THAT isn't right.

And I am a bit sad that in the end the plot more or less demands that Harry doesn't know that he has a chance to survive another AK from Voldemort.... Was it REALLY necessary to force Harry into deciding to sacrifice himself? As far as I understand it this had the effect that V no loner could harm anyone. But that advantage was bought at a high price.


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  #36  
Old March 6th, 2008, 2:40 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by tombo125 View Post
Actually Gandalf used everybody in the Hobbit. He wanted to get Smaug out of the Castle because he was worried that Sauron would use him. He only wanted to bring a hobbit along because he knew that Smaug would not recognize the smell of a hobbit, therefore he would be useful to sneak around the castle.
I think mostly the dwarfs he met wanted Smaug out, he just had the idea to add Bilbo along. He had a far smaller role in this book, or LOTR, compared to Dumbledore in HP. I think in OOTP at the latest, he should have told Harry everything.


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  #37  
Old March 6th, 2008, 4:09 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I don't think it was ever a case of forcing Harry to sacrifice himself. When Harry first came to Hogwarts, DD didn't even know yet what kind of person Harry would turn out to be. Sure he knew the prophecy, knew what kind of ppl Harry came from, but that isn't always indicative of what a person will or won't do in life.

However, as he came to know Harry, and as each event that Harry found himself a part of, Quirrel, the basilisk, etc..., he saw the type of person he was dealing with. I know that looking over the prophecy must have been extremely hard on someone like DD who really cares for people.
He had taken the time to find out information, something he was a real master of (almost like the old grumpy magician in the Xanth series lol).
He was a person who didn't like the idea of someone young and whole having to take on burdens, much less having to perhaps 'taint' their soul so to speak, as indicated by his treatment of Draco in HBP. I think he would always try to work around things like that.

But like someone mentioned, he knew the prophecy and even if Harry NEVER decided to do anything about Voldemort, it was a pretty good bet that if LV came back he wasn't going to ignore Harry, though.
That is when someone like DD with his skillful way of managing things behind the scenes so to speak can at least work toward a possible better end.
No one likes to think of someone pulling the strings behind the scenes, but if choices are to be made, such as sitting back and doing nothing, letting LV come back, take over, take out Harry, and someone with great experience both in magic in the book, human relationships, good guesswork and skills of a champion chess player, sticking their nose in and possibly finding a way to eventually and hopefully nudge everyone toward a better path, which would you prefer?

I think DD worked hard to keep that path open for Harry and his friends. He could equip Harry with skills, relationships, knowledge (although it was piecemeal in that case lol), and just hope for the best.
Very much like Gandalf and other 'manipulators' of fiction! lol
Ultimately it still boiled down to what Harry would do in this situation though.
Harry still had to make those decisions and discoveries for himself.
Kim


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  #38  
Old March 6th, 2008, 4:45 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I still respect Dumbledore after reading DH. But at first I was angry at him, for being as manipulative as he was.

But as time passed on, that anger abated and I realized that he was only human and that everyone has their flaws.

For the most part, he remained the same funny and kind headmaster that we all got to know from the beginning. Only now with flaws, which makes him all the more human.

He made his share of mistakes, and he had an ego and a half at times (which got on my nerves at times ), but in spite of it all -- he remained who he was, just another person who did the right thing (for the most part).

Like most of you said, he let Harry discover a lot of things on his own. Gave him hints from time to time, but for the most part, let him find things out in his own time. And it made Harry a better person for it.


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Old March 6th, 2008, 5:14 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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He made his share of mistakes, and he had an ego and a half at times (which got on my nerves at times ), but in spite of it all -- he remained who he was, just another person who did the right thing (for the most part).
Actually egoistic was one thing I thought Dumbledore wasn't. I agree with you, he made a lot of mistakes, but I don't think he thought of himself highly. And I also think he tried to, and did the right thing most of the time.


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Old March 6th, 2008, 5:38 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Actually egoistic was one thing I thought Dumbledore wasn't. I agree with you, he made a lot of mistakes, but I don't think he thought of himself highly. And I also think he tried to, and did the right thing most of the time.
Oh, well at times in HBP he seemed to be that way -- no offense intended. It kind of got on my nerves . I guess it was just the way that he said things that appeared to be that way. Even though, they most likely weren't intended to come across as such.


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