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How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?



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  #41  
Old July 26th, 2007, 11:35 pm
Zarrot  Male.gif Zarrot is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald

The Stone - did not truely bring back the dead just 'ghosts' of the dead.

The Cloak - did not truely hid you from the death and was not inpenetrable (Moody).

The Wand - therfore was not unbeatable just very powerful notice in Xeno's story everyone who held it was killed not all of them could have been snuck up on.

In the end DD was just a better wizard and out dueled him even though he had the advantage of the wand.


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  #42  
Old July 27th, 2007, 12:03 am
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald

Very good point


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  #43  
Old July 27th, 2007, 2:02 am
NoNEWTS  Male.gif NoNEWTS is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald

I think the Elder wand being unbeatable was a myth, like the Invisibility Cloak leaving you undetectable, when Crouch, Jr. had penetrated it with his eye. So, I think Dumbledore helped build Moody's eye after studying the Invisibility Cloak! He had both normal eyes in a courtroom scene.


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  #44  
Old July 27th, 2007, 2:42 pm
mystic_22  Female.gif mystic_22 is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald

In that case how did wand ever pass through so many hands? As it is the unbeatable wand it should be impossible to win the wand through a duel.
But I think it's important that we remember what Ollivander has told us a million times. It is the wand that chooses the master. I suppose the wand might willingly submit itslef to another master if he is more worthy.
Malfoy obviously got the wand because Dumbledore did not even try to fight.
Dumbledore's duel with Grindlewald is supposed to be legendary. Maybe it wasn't just about the spells that were cast but the fact that it was also a battle of two of the greatest minds the wizarding world had ever seen.
We know that at the end of the day Grindlewald regreted what he had done.
Maybe Grindlewald gave in to Dumbledore by the end of the duel. He might have come to the conclsuion that he didn't want to fight anymore.


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  #45  
Old July 27th, 2007, 5:59 pm
i6uuaq  Undisclosed.gif i6uuaq is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald

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Originally Posted by mystic_22 View Post
In that case how did wand ever pass through so many hands? As it is the unbeatable wand it should be impossible to win the wand through a duel.
It's not unbeatable. Just extremely powerful. Unbeatable came from the children's story, it was an exaggeration. read Zarrot's post for details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mystic_22 View Post
But I think it's important that we remember what Ollivander has told us a million times. It is the wand that chooses the master. I suppose the wand might willingly submit itslef to another master if he is more worthy.
yup. wand chooses master. According to Ollivander (DH, UK version, pg 399), "These connections are complex. An initial attraction, and then a mutual quest for experience, the wand learning from the wizard, the wizard from the wand."

wand choosing master would be the initial attraction bit. but using the wand long enough, you will be able to "master" it in a sense. So even though Grindelwald stole it, he eventually mastered it too. "They said he had procured a wand of immense power." (pg 575). The rumour would not have started if the wand wasn't powerful right? Grindelwald mastered the wand. But DD beat him, because the wand itself is not unbeatable, merely extremely powerful.

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Originally Posted by mystic_22 View Post
We know that at the end of the day Grindlewald regreted what he had done.
Maybe Grindlewald gave in to Dumbledore by the end of the duel. He might have come to the conclsuion that he didn't want to fight anymore.
Nope. sorry. not anything personal here mystic, just correcting facts. I've got a Hermione complex - I've got to answer questions correctly if i can. refer to DH, UK version, pg 576.
"They say he showed remorse in later years, alone in his cell at Nurmengard. I hope that it is true. I would like to think he did feel the horror and shame of what he had done." He didn't feel remorse until long after his initial defeat.


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  #46  
Old July 27th, 2007, 6:51 pm
lunagranger  Female.gif lunagranger is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

I dont think the elder wand would have helped grindewald...he stole it right? so he wouldnt be its true master


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  #47  
Old July 27th, 2007, 8:15 pm
rs23  Undisclosed.gif rs23 is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

Grindelwald was the master of the Elder Wand. It would not have been possible for Dumbledore to become master if Grindelwald had not been master first. Dumbledore would have had to defeat Gregorovitch in order to be the master of the wand, if Grindelwald was not, and Dumbledore obviously did not duel Gregorovitch.
I think the wand is unbeatable in a duel situation, when you are shooting spells and curses at each other, but does not make the owner beatable. They can have the wand stolen, or someone can disarm the master of the wand if the master is not using it at the time (like Draco did with Dumbledore), but if the master is using the wand I think it is unbeatable. My thought was that Dumbledore outwited Grindelwald or caught him off guard in some way.


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  #48  
Old July 27th, 2007, 8:26 pm
Dumbledoreswand  Male.gif Dumbledoreswand is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

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Originally Posted by rs23 View Post
Grindelwald was the master of the Elder Wand. It would not have been possible for Dumbledore to become master if Grindelwald had not been master first. Dumbledore would have had to defeat Gregorovitch in order to be the master of the wand, if Grindelwald was not, and Dumbledore obviously did not duel Gregorovitch.
I think the wand is unbeatable in a duel situation, when you are shooting spells and curses at each other, but does not make the owner beatable. They can have the wand stolen, or someone can disarm the master of the wand if the master is not using it at the time (like Draco did with Dumbledore), but if the master is using the wand I think it is unbeatable. My thought was that Dumbledore outwited Grindelwald or caught him off guard in some way.
Dumbledore claimed they were 3 powerful objects made by 3 powerful wizards and perhaps not 'Deaths' Hallows. The cloak was not completely invisible, the ring not completely god like in bring people back from death. Nor was the wand unbeatable. How did Draco disarm dumbledore, if the wand cannot be beaten in a duel? Surely any duel like spells would be magically blocked even if Dumbledore was planning his death and even if he was pre-occupied with keeping harry save and invisible and quiet? That would have occured if the wand was truly unbeatable. Dumbledore beat Grindelwald in a duel as he said in King's Cross. As Doge said aswell. The only person who claimed otherwise was Skeeta. Who would you believe, Dumbledores direct word on something or Skeeta's?


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  #49  
Old July 27th, 2007, 8:38 pm
rs23  Undisclosed.gif rs23 is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

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Originally Posted by Dumbledoreswand View Post
Dumbledore claimed they were 3 powerful objects made by 3 powerful wizards and perhaps not 'Deaths' Hallows. The cloak was not completely invisible, the ring not completely god like in bring people back from death. Nor was the wand unbeatable. How did Draco disarm dumbledore, if the wand cannot be beaten in a duel? Surely any duel like spells would be magically blocked even if Dumbledore was planning his death and even if he was pre-occupied with keeping harry save and invisible and quiet? That would have occured if the wand was truly unbeatable. Dumbledore beat Grindelwald in a duel as he said in King's Cross. As Doge said aswell. The only person who claimed otherwise was Skeeta. Who would you believe, Dumbledores direct word on something or Skeeta's?
Dumbledore was not attacking Draco with his wand though. They were not dueling each other, he was protecting Harry. I didn't think unbeatable meant protecting the master while the master was not aiming the wand at the other person, or if it was not in the master's hand (like gregorovitch who did not have the wand on him at the time it was stolen). I don't think Draco and Dumbledore could be considered to be dueling, if Dumbledore was not using his wand against Draco, therefore making it posible for Draco to become master and for the wand to still be unbeatable. Harry was using his wand against Voldermort, which is why it protected him.
And I do believe it was a great duel between the Dumbledore and Greindelwald, there were more onlookers who claimed that. But we don't know all the details, maybe it was Dumbledore's brainpower that outsmarted Grindelwald.
I also think the cloak was truely invisible. Mad-eye had a magical eye, which could see through anything, so I think that was unique in itself. Otherwise, they were completely invisible. It was never said to have been curse free, anyone could bump into them still, but they were always visibaly concealed. And in Hogsmeade the cloak could not be lifted by the death eaters to reveal them.
The stone was said just to be able to bring the dead back, and that is what it did. They might not have been the same people, cold and sad instead, but they were still in the land of the living.
I think it is a matter of prospective, and I see all three as being what the legend said.


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  #50  
Old July 27th, 2007, 8:40 pm
Vdmrt123 Vdmrt123 is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

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Originally Posted by Dumbledoreswand View Post
Dumbledore claimed they were 3 powerful objects made by 3 powerful wizards and perhaps not 'Deaths' Hallows. The cloak was not completely invisible, the ring not completely god like in bring people back from death. Nor was the wand unbeatable. How did Draco disarm dumbledore, if the wand cannot be beaten in a duel? Surely any duel like spells would be magically blocked even if Dumbledore was planning his death and even if he was pre-occupied with keeping harry save and invisible and quiet? That would have occured if the wand was truly unbeatable. Dumbledore beat Grindelwald in a duel as he said in King's Cross. As Doge said aswell. The only person who claimed otherwise was Skeeta. Who would you believe, Dumbledores direct word on something or Skeeta's?
Dumbledore did believe that together they would make him immortal, the master of death. So even if they weren't from Death himself they were still ridiculously powerful objects.

When Malfoy threw open the door and disarmed Dumbledore, was that a duel? I certainly didn't think so. Perhaps, it means unbeatable in a fair and proper duel. Also, it's important to note that Dumbledore chose not to fight back by placing a freeing charm on Harry. He'd have easily stopped him had he not been so keen on protecting Harry.

Perhaps Grindelwald was not the true owner of the wand, or perhaps Dumbledore got him through some other sort of trickery. As we never saw the scene we cannot say what happened with any legitimate degree of certainty.

There is no definitive proof that the wand is not unbeatable in the hand of its true owner. Until JK claims otherwise we can't simply assume it isn't.


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  #51  
Old July 27th, 2007, 8:48 pm
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

I think that it was pretty much clarified that the wand was actually merely powerful, rather than unbeatable. Dumbledore was the better wizard, that's how he won.

Perhaps in fifty years someone will be spreading lies about how Harry beat Voldemort, just like Rita did Dumbledore's victory.


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  #52  
Old July 27th, 2007, 8:54 pm
rs23  Undisclosed.gif rs23 is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

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Originally Posted by IgoRetla View Post
I think that it was pretty much clarified that the wand was actually merely powerful, rather than unbeatable. Dumbledore was the better wizard, that's how he won.

Perhaps in fifty years someone will be spreading lies about how Harry beat Voldemort, just like Rita did Dumbledore's victory.
Were does it say it is just more powerful? I know that Ron is the one who calls it unbeatable, but the legend saids " A wand that must always win duels for its owner." It is therefore unbeatable in a duel situation. Draco taking ownership was not a duel, neither was Harry taking ownership over Draco, thus they were both able to become masters.


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  #53  
Old July 27th, 2007, 9:20 pm
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

As for Grindelwald defeating Gregorovitch
This is the only way that I can think of:

It said that Grindelwald fired a curse at Gregorovitch and then took the wand. Maybe that means that he defeated him. By the curse he put on him. Maybe? That's my guess.


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  #54  
Old July 27th, 2007, 9:31 pm
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

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Originally Posted by rs23 View Post
Were does it say it is just more powerful? I know that Ron is the one who calls it unbeatable, but the legend saids " A wand that must always win duels for its owner." It is therefore unbeatable in a duel situation. Draco taking ownership was not a duel, neither was Harry taking ownership over Draco, thus they were both able to become masters.

Well, if Dumbledore beat it, as he tells Harry, obviously it's not unbeatable, is it?


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  #55  
Old July 27th, 2007, 10:08 pm
eternitygoddess  Undisclosed.gif eternitygoddess is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

I keep thinking Dumbledore tricked Grindelward or something,

Maybe he stole it.l


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  #56  
Old July 28th, 2007, 4:13 pm
rhbz  Undisclosed.gif rhbz is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

I'm sure Grindelwald was the true master. He did stun Gregorovitch before he left. I assume he waited in the window because he knew he needed to beat Gregorovitch to be the true master of the elder wand. I expect the stunning spell he fired at the wand maker was enough to consider him as the rightful master since Gregorovitch was then beaten.


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  #57  
Old July 28th, 2007, 5:33 pm
Fairygdmther  Female.gif Fairygdmther is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

Whether Grindlewald was or was not the master of the wand, we have to look at DD. Who knew Grindlewald better than DD? They grew up together for a while, and talked and shared ideas. Who could better psych him out than DD? Remember DD said he was very reluctant to battle Grindlewald, and put it off as long as he could. DD must have had a clear plan in mind as to how to do this. (When did we ever see him without a plan?) DD just needed to 'vanquish' him, but not necessarily kill him, to become master of the elder wand. Grindlewald, not being stupid, knew just how powerful DD was. Once DD disarmed him, he conceded. Perhaps if he had continued to fight DD might have had to kill him.

I don't have any canon for this, but only what little has been said, and from what we know of DD.

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  #58  
Old July 28th, 2007, 6:05 pm
Alektra  Female.gif Alektra is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

I think we need to recall what Dumbledore said about Harry's cloak - he said it would never have worked as well for him as it did for Harry because he took it for the wrong reasons. He said that he was only able to gain mastery of the wand, again because he took it for the right reasons.

So, I think that the wand is indeed unbeatable - if the wand is used by a worthy person. But I think there comes a point when the wand may feel someone else is more worthy than its current owner, and may allow itself to be beaten.

That is was not *always* unbeatable is suggested to me in the same conversation, where Dumbledore is talking about Voldemort coming after it. He talks about the wand that *they say* is unbeatable, rather than the wand that *IS* unbeatable. As the wands true owner Dumbledore should have been able to say with certainty whether *they* had it right, you know?

I also give credence to the idea that Grindelwald might have surrendered after a long battle. We see in this book that Skeeter never lied, she only twisted the truth. It makes sense to me that the wand itself was never beaten, but when Grindelwald lowered his wand and surrendered, to battle no more, it was considered a defeat.


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  #59  
Old July 28th, 2007, 7:01 pm
Harsh_Potter  Undisclosed.gif Harsh_Potter is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

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Originally Posted by Alektra View Post
I think we need to recall what Dumbledore said about Harry's cloak - he said it would never have worked as well for him as it did for Harry because he took it for the wrong reasons. He said that he was only able to gain mastery of the wand, again because he took it for the right reasons.

So, I think that the wand is indeed unbeatable - if the wand is used by a worthy person. But I think there comes a point when the wand may feel someone else is more worthy than its current owner, and may allow itself to be beaten.

That is was not *always* unbeatable is suggested to me in the same conversation, where Dumbledore is talking about Voldemort coming after it. He talks about the wand that *they say* is unbeatable, rather than the wand that *IS* unbeatable. As the wands true owner Dumbledore should have been able to say with certainty whether *they* had it right, you know?

I also give credence to the idea that Grindelwald might have surrendered after a long battle. We see in this book that Skeeter never lied, she only twisted the truth. It makes sense to me that the wand itself was never beaten, but when Grindelwald lowered his wand and surrendered, to battle no more, it was considered a defeat.
Skeeter never lied??? I find that really hard to believe.

I think I agree with the others. The Elder Wand gives power to its master...that does not mean the master can't be beaten.

It is a wand of immense power, makes the master of the wand very powerful, and therefore, in the hands of already powerful wizards like Grindelwald and Dumbledore, it is sort of invincible.

However it is not unbeatable, that is legend...and as we know, legends do tend to exaggerate a bit, don't they?

I also find it a bit odd that the unbeatable Elder wand is also called as a The Deathstick. Very ominous, no?

As for Grindelwald not being the true master of the wand, well, he cursed Gregorovitch, didn't he? In that way, he defeated Gregorovitch!
And so, when Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, he became the master of the wand.

People said that maybe Dumbledore had stolen the wand...I get ver disturbed by that.


I do not think that Dumbledore would have stolen the wand...nor would the wand have worked for him or taken him as its master, if he had not truly defeated Grindelwald.

Think about it, if DD wasn't the real master of the wand, then Malfoy wouldn't have been the real master, in his turn. And neither would have Harry.

Yet we see, that the wand recognized Harry as its true master and refused to work against him...

So..it all comes back to Dumbledore....and he has to be the real master of the wand...


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  #60  
Old July 28th, 2007, 7:27 pm
Gandalf_the_White  Male.gif Gandalf_the_White is offline
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Re: How did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald?

Another interesting theory is that perhaps Grindelwald being a powerful wizard was able to perform Prior Incantem on the wand and figure out who the original owner of the wand was at least and then tracking down the last rightful owner of the wand was through research. We don't really know a lot about Gregorovitch but if he just obtained it then Grindelwald could have gone back and defeated the last rightful owner and thus earning the full attributes of the wand. Also, it wouldn't suprise me if the Phoenix played a huge part in Dumbledore defeating Grindelwald, perhaps Grindelwald hit Dumbledore with a curse he thought would mortally wound Dumbledore, however the Phoenix's powers would triumph even over a wound from the wand and perhaps Dumbledore used this to his advantage, wouldn't be surprised if the phoenix swallowing a killing curse occurred more than just in that scene at the Ministry. And in that instance that Grindelwald relaxed, he may have been defeated. This all fits because in the Harry Potter series, strength resides not necessarily in skill but in courage and those that surround you. Harry is truly powerful because of his friends and their love for him.


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