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The Creature at King's Cross



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The creature was the piece of Voldemort's soul that made Harry a Horcrux. 271 55.53%
The creature was Voldemort's actual soul from his body in the forest. 204 41.80%
The creature is something else or a symbolic idea or combination of his soul pieces. 53 10.86%
Voldemort's fall in the forest is unrelated to the creature or the blood bond 16 3.28%
Voldemort's fall in the forest is related to the creature in King's Cross. 176 36.07%
Voldemort's fall in the forest is related to the blood bond. 116 23.77%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 488. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old September 18th, 2007, 11:25 pm
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
Here's another reason why this is confusing. JKR was asked this question AFTER DH was published. Also, Voldemort died in the past years ago. She had no choice but to use the word IS in that context, but it doesn't clarify which soul piece was there at KC. All soul pieces or any combination could be in the form Voldemort is forced to exist in. There are 8 pieces or combinations that likely have the same form, especially, when you exit Space and Time.


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Exactly. As I see it, Jo was speaking of something that occurred in the past and now is. As in Voldemort is that nasty, gasping, miserable little thing we saw in Kings' Cross. But at the time Kings' Cross occurred, Voldemort had not yet been reduced to such a form. He still had his last, best hope in the choice Harry offered him: to show remorse and perhaps salvage something better than that thing.

Of the 8 bits of soul that once were, however, only the one residing in Voldemort's body remained by the time he and Harry met in the Great Hall. Harry told him so: "There are no more horcruxes." Those slices of his soul had ceased to exist by the time of their duel.

ETA:

Remember what Hermione told Harry and Ron: the life of a horcrux is contained solely in its protective shell. Once the shell is destroyed - as happened with all seven of Voldemort's horcruxes - the living thing inside it ceases to exist. It is killed off and cannot be retrieved.


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Last edited by purplehawk; September 18th, 2007 at 11:31 pm.
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  #22  
Old September 18th, 2007, 11:29 pm
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

An interesting observation:
After Voldemort's failed Avada Kedavra on Harry, he lost his body, but his soul remained anchored so that it did not go wherever souls go after death in the HP series. When Harry first sees Voldemort before his body is fully restored, Harry observes that he looks like a "baby". I think it's an interesting comparison to the baby figure that Harry saw at kings cross.


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  #23  
Old September 18th, 2007, 11:37 pm
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rell View Post
An interesting observation:
After Voldemort's failed Avada Kedavra on Harry, he lost his body, but his soul remained anchored so that it did not go wherever souls go after death in the HP series. When Harry first sees Voldemort before his body is fully restored, Harry observes that he looks like a "baby". I think it's an interesting comparison to the baby figure that Harry saw at kings cross.
Yes, indeed. That juxtaposition of images should underscore what we saw in Kings' Cross. Baby Vapormort in GoF still had five surviving horcruxes to tether him to life, plus the one he didn't know existed inside Harry. He had awareness of his plight, and the knowledge of what had to happen to regenerate himself. In Kings' Cross, he is reduced to something even more helpless than the Ugly Baby in that cemetery: eternal suffering and the awareness that nothing - nothing - can help him.


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Last edited by purplehawk; September 18th, 2007 at 11:39 pm.
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  #24  
Old September 19th, 2007, 1:47 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
I do believe this was a piece of Voldemort's soul.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?
My opinion on this is that it was the piece of soul that resides inside Voldemort, since the following dialogue occurs at King's Cross:
DH, p708
"So the part of his soul that was in me ..."
Dumbledore nodded still more enthusiastically, urging Harry onward, a broad smile of encouragement on his face.
"... has it gone?"
"Oh yes!" said Dumbledore. "Yes, he destroyed it. Your soul is whole, and completely your own, Harry."
Therefore, I believe the Voldemort's Killing Curse completely destroyed the piece of soul within Harry, and the "flayed baby" is manifested within Harry's Kings Cross because of the connection that still exists between he and Voldemort. As Harry realizes, Voldemort took his blood, and thus tethers Harry to life while he himself lives; therefore they still share a connection which I believe would make it possible for the piece of Voldemort's soul inside his own body to manifest within King's Cross.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?
I believe it's completely just considering what Voldemort did to both his own soul and all the suffering he caused other people. That he was unable to feel remorse and the fact that he split his soul so many times warrants the eternal punishment he received.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?
Yes I believe it was - my theory is that since Voldemort and Harry were so closely tied together, Voldemort would have lost consciousness when Harry did, and a manifestation of his soul - a projection if you will - appeared at King's Cross.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?
It seemed that when Harry was hit with the Killing Curse and lost consciousness, Voldemort did also. It seems more than a coincidence that Harry and Voldemort would become unconscious at the same time. Since Harry and Voldemort were tethered together so closely, it seems logical to me that when Harry was transported to that place between life and death, a manifestation of Voldemort's soul (the one in his own body) would have been brought there as well, as I mentioned above. So he fell because he lost consciousness as Harry did due to the connection that existed between them.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?
I'd like to think that Voldemort existed in some version of that place between life and death. I'm sure it wouldn't have taken on the form of King's Cross to Voldemort though. However, since Voldemort did not seem to remember experiencing any pain or suffering when he woke up, I would have to conclude that he was indeed just unconsious and not physically brought to King's Cross like Harry was. What appeared at King's Cross was likely a manifestation of what Voldemort's soul really looked like, what it would become when Voldemort was dead.


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Last edited by RemusLupinFan; September 19th, 2007 at 1:55 am. Reason: revised my theory
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  #25  
Old September 19th, 2007, 2:04 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
Yes it's Voldemort's soul.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

I believe it's the part left in Voldemort. Because Harry says it's what V. "will be", and because DD talks about how Harry has less to fear than V. by returning to "King's Cross". If both Harry and Voldy/Flaychild will be going back to "real life" (you have to leave a place before you can come back) and either or both could/will "return" to KC sometime, they're both there temporarily, assuming Harry chooses to go back, which we know he does. Even if a destroyed Horcrux doesn't just "wink out", which most now seem to believe they do, Horcrux-Piece wouldn't get a chance to go back to life, and then "return" to KC sometime in the future. It would be staying.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

He shredded his soul through remorseless murder, pride, selfishness, you name it. Now he probably doesn't even have enough soul left to even realize what he's done to himself, and has to spend eternity as a human/wizard version of coleslaw, as barely conscious of what's going on around him as a baby, and as helpless.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
The fall is related, I don't think anyone has ever debated otherwise.
Wandrider was talking about question 7 here, ("If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?"), but I'm going to deal with both at once here. I'm not sure that the fact that they are related is a foregone conclusion. I didn't vote for "related" or "unrelated," but because I'm not sure, not because I'm sure "unrelated" is wrong.

Harry may be seeing the Flaychild because of some weird aspect of their connection that also accounts for V's fall in the forest. (even DD talked about how the connection drew Harry and V. together into magical realms "unknown and untested"--he doesn't always know, either, how it might work) I could see a spasm of the Harrycrux segment as it was "dying" causing V's out-of-time soul being visible to Harry and causing V. to fall. I could also see V. having some of Harry's blood causing both Harry to see the Flaychild and V. to fall. (Maybe it was the Harry blood still in V. having a near-death-experience with Harry?). I tend to believe they are related because of the "dual return" thing described above, mostly.

But I could almost as easily see the two being unrelated. Actually I used to think they were unrelated until catching the "return" reference. Such as, Harry sees Voldemort's out-of-time future soul just in some vague spiritual sense because they've lived as part of each other so long, or because some of Harry's "life" was in V. and so had to traipse along on the journey, and that unrelatedly, V. fell in the forest because of the "suicide" of killing his own Horcrux, or because of some short circuit of their mind connection as it broke, or because the Elder Wand recoiled on him when told to kill its master, etc.

But that was before I thought about the return thing, and took a more active notice of the timing of them both being "out" and waking up. That makes me think the two went and returned together, though I suspect V. would have little more conscious rememberance of the time at KC (whatever he'd have seen it as) than most of us have of our bassinet at the hospital we were born in.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

Not really positive. Some of my favorite theories are embodied in the previous question.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

Again, covered above--I'm not sure. If he was there, I don't think it was like Harry's experience. If he was there, I think he was somehow dragged by Harry's sacrifice, blood, mind connection, something. I don't think he remembered it consciously, or had any choice in anything.

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?

See other alternatives above. They could be two separate weirdnesses, unrelated except that they both deal with Voldemort and the fruitlessness of what he's been trying to do for the last 7 books or so.


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  #26  
Old September 19th, 2007, 2:07 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
But at the time Kings' Cross occurred, Voldemort had not yet been reduced to such a form. He still had his last, best hope in the choice Harry offered him: to show remorse and perhaps salvage something better than that thing.
Yes, remorse. How is that VoldySoul going to be healed IF remorse requires the other 7 soul pieces to make the soul whole again?

There is some confusion about this, because JKR has definitely said after DH that Voldy could have been healed theoretically. And, Hermione does know of one-way to do it in the book. And, some Horcruxes were already destroyed by the time Hermione discussed this, and she knew this too. And, it did require the use of the HorcruxSouls to do it. And, Hermione knew Voldemort had many pieces of souls. And, JKR has said she uses Hermione for info, and Hermione is an expert at being very thorough and clear in understanding. I don't think she spoke with leaving anything to chance, or she would have said so.

For example, she did say she didn't think Voldy had it in him to show remorse, so I think Hermione thought it was possible to heal with multiple destroyed soul pieces too, imo. Otherwise, she just would have said it was impossible. IMO, Hermione is speaking for JKR too. Of course, we know the Horcrux book was limited in what it was referring to, and the meaning of 'destroyed' and 'cease to exist' would have precise meaning in the hereafter for purposes of soul reunification. This is why I can't lean towards this reunification theory, I'm neutral, but I'm sympathetic towards the idea. Why? I'm guessing the soul is indestructible in JKR's HP'verse, since she has used the religious words "repent" & "redemption" talking about the remorse idea too. Plus, those darn little soul pieces had nasty intelligences and could take form and scream as they left the earthly plane of existence. JKR seemed to have them fade away, being sucked into an other world, whereas an AK just instantly whacked the living being off instantly. I'm sure JKR will answer this someday, and, until then, please be happy with your own theory about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
Harry told him so: "There are no more horcruxes." Those slices of his soul had ceased to exist by the time of their duel.
Yes, Harry was speaking to LV from the earthly side of existence, but I don't think Harry was/is an expert about the ultimate fate of HorcruxSouls. I am absolutely convinced that once the container is destroyed the soul piece is destroyed if no remorse is given as in Voldemort's case. Perhaps that is the fate of any HorcruxSoul and remaining soul that does not show remorse. All of it ends-up as one flayed piece in Limbo unable to go anywhere. It seems to be a simple and fateful solution.

That is a flayed fate that is worse than death or being a Ghost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
It is killed off and cannot be retrieved.
This is certainly possible if not probable, but you are not quoting canon. "Killed off" and "cannot be retrieved" are your ideas and not canon words. Because there is still some lingering doubts, imo, I would never say never. Too much imprecise language and spiritual symbolism was used in KC to allow me to be so definitive. Loopholes, though narrow and few in number, are possibly available, imo.

Also, JKR did use the religious words "repent" and "redemption" too regarding this remorse idea. Some words related to redemption are: recovery; retrieval; rescue; deliverance; delivery; saving.


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Last edited by wandrider; September 19th, 2007 at 4:06 am.
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  #27  
Old September 19th, 2007, 2:30 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

At King's Cross, Harry and Dumbledore converse while in the presence of

Quote:
the form of a small, naked child, curled on the ground, its skin raw and rough, flayed-looking

(DH P 706, US Hardback)
The form is depicted as struggling for breath and unwanted, and Dumbledore notes "you cannot help".

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
I think it was a piece of LV's soul.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?
I feel that it had to be the piece within Harry. We know that when a horcrux is broken, and the soul within is released, it ceases to exist. What there is no canon to explain, though, is that this 'ceases to exist' occurs only on an earthly plane, vs. to evaporate totally. We are led to believe that the KC area, or limbo, is where souls go to when the body dies, as a kind of waystation to final death. My feeling is that, since LV didn't 'die' in the forest, like Harry did from the AK, this can't be his entire soul. Since this is our only visit to KC, we can only guess at the meaning of this flayed child, but I think it represents the horcrux soul from Harry, since its release and Harry's 'death' occurred at the same time.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?
LV's soul was so torn and fragmented, JKR used this 'flayed child' form to display the damage in a visual manner. I think she would have used this form to show any part or whole of LV's soul.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?
No, I don't think so. LV didn't get AK'd, so he didn't 'die' as Harry did. Since LV doesn't seem to respond to other horcruxes being destroyed, I don't feel that the release of this one should has affected him this way. Look at how little response he had to Nagini's death.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?
First, there is no rebound of the AK, or JKR would have told us. Throughout the books, LV and Harry had a mind connection, useful even at great distances. Each could read the other's mind, quite clearly. Whether because of the mind connection, the horcrux connection, or the presence of Harry's blood in his veins, the powerful AK that hit Harry, hit with such force that it short-circuited LV's brain as well, so he briefly lost consciousness at the same time as Harry 'died'. There's no canon to say they awoke at exactly the same moment. LV was awake when Harry woke up.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?
LV was merely unconscious, briefly, and physically untouched by the AK, unlike Harry who felt like he'd been hit by 'an iron fist' or something like that, and he ached all over.

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?
Since LV did not receive an AK, he did not die. Those who are living do not have their souls leave their bodies, even briefly, to go to limbo. The only part of LV's soul that had just 'died' was the Harrycrux.

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Last edited by Fairygdmther; September 19th, 2007 at 2:34 am.
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  #28  
Old September 19th, 2007, 2:43 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

I think that it's the piece of soul from Voldemort that was in Harry. They would both have been hit by the curse so at this point i believe that they separated but ended up in the same place, only the piece of Voldemort's soul didn't have the choice whether to go back or not.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

Since Voldemort's soul has been fragmented so many times, I can see why it would take on this shape. It's interesting though that at the beginning of GoF he is in similar shape in the real world, so maybe this is punishment for him that he will be helpless in the afterlife forever.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

No, I believe the creature is solely related to the piece of his soul that was in Harry and is destroyed by the Avada Kevadra.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

I believe that this is to do with the blood connection. When the other Horcruxes are destroyed Voldemort doesn't feel them and isn't affected by them, so I don't think that he fell because he had just destroyed the horcrux, even if he did destroy it himself.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

He was just unconscious. As the Avada Kevadra curse didn't rebound this time, the part of his soul within him wasn't affected so I believe that he was just unconscious for a couple of seconds.

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?


I think it was to do with the blood connection between Harry & Voldemort. Voldemort took in Harry's blood, so the protection lives on within Voldemort. So if Voldemort tries to hurt Harry he will also hurt himself.


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  #29  
Old September 19th, 2007, 4:21 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
At King's Cross, Harry and Dumbledore converse while in the presence of
(DH P 706, US Hardback)
The form is depicted as struggling for breath and unwanted, and Dumbledore notes "you cannot help".
1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

I think it's Voldemort's soul, the piece that resided in his body.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

It was the piece that resided in Voldemort. Dumbledore told Harry that the piece that was attached to him had been destroyed. And as Harry was still, by virtue of Voldemort's taking Harry's blood in GoF, protected by his mother's sacrifice, Harry was safe, but the horcrux was AK'd.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

I think it makes perfect sense. In King's Cross, it's Voldemort's soul from his body, as it is, with the damage he's done to it, and without the healing benefit of remorse. Before Voldemort dies, Harry tells him he has one chance, to try for remorse -- the one hope Dumbledore refers to in King's Cross, the chance afforded Voldemort by the small part of Lily's sacrifice that runs in his veins. As Voldemort cast aside that chance, when he died, the form he exists in is the form we saw in King's Cross.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

Without a doubt. There's no reason why Voldemort should have fallen unconscious otherwise. There was no rebound of the curse, nothing else to explain why Voldemort should fall unconscious.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

His body falls unconscious because his soul has gone to the "in between" place JKR described, between life and death. It was brought there by his connection to Harry, at the moment of Harry's act of sacrifice -- by the horcrux connection just before it was destroyed, strengthened by the connection of Harry's blood -- which Dumbledore said doubled their connection.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

I think that Voldemort was in King's Cross with Harry & Dumbledore. Because Voldemort did not understand what happened, he feared he was dead. His soul was already damaged and diminished by his own actions, and would not be able to function the way an intact soul could. These two factors together would make for a weak and terrified soul, and I would not expect that he could get it together enough to be aware of his surroundings, let alone what was happening to him.


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Last edited by HedwigOwl; September 19th, 2007 at 4:24 am. Reason: typos
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  #30  
Old September 19th, 2007, 4:31 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris17 View Post
"Vapormort". I like it.

One thing I was wondering about was the unicorn's blood Quirrell drank for LV in Book 1. I can't remember the exact wording, but wasn't it supposed to guarantee an eternal but cursed "half-life"?

I think LV can't die, which why what is left of him is stuck in the "ante-room".

Polaris
Not to get into this too much, I think what Voldemort had already done to himself in creating all those Horcruxes was to already live a cursed "half-life", so, what's a unicorn more or less. More grist for the mill or like adding insult to injury type of thing.

As for can't die, are you meaning can't move on? I'm confused cuz I thought bodies die but not souls. A little help?


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  #31  
Old September 19th, 2007, 4:48 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
Yes, remorse. How is that VoldySoul going to be healed IF remorse requires the other 7 soul pieces to make the soul whole again?

There is some confusion about this, because JKR has definitely said after DH that Voldy could have been healed theoretically. And, Hermione does know of one-way to do it in the book.
The method for reunification that Hermione reads about in the book is assuming that one horcrux is created. No one had ever made more than one before. Why would they? It's only Riddle who was obsessed with power and fear of death to such an extent that he would push the envelope so radically from known magic.

So it's highly doubtful that the horcrux book comments would apply to Riddle/Voldemort, because it was unknown what would happen in the case of multiple horcruxes, or if the horcruxes were destroyed.

I believe the "one last chance and hope" for Voldemort that Dumbledore referred to, was a better existence than what they saw of Voldy in King's Cross -- not the same as if he had an intact soul, but healing nonetheless. It would have merely helped to heal the one pitiful piece he had left. And the chance/hope was identified by Dumbledore as given by the remnant of Lily's sacrifice in Voldemort's blood, not by some type of reunification. Dumbledore also hoped Grindelwald had felt remorse for his actions, and Grindelwald did not make a horcrux. So remorse is apparently good for the soul under any conditions.


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Last edited by HedwigOwl; September 19th, 2007 at 4:52 am. Reason: added text
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  #32  
Old September 19th, 2007, 4:48 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

I think that the flawed baby was the piece of Voldemorts soul that resided in him the only one that would be left when all his horcruxes were finally destroyed. I don’t think that it was the one in Harry because like Hermione explains in DH a horcrux is the opposite of a human being and so when you destroy the horcrux (in this case Harry) then the soul is destroyed too. I believe Voldemort was probably in his own version of Kings cross but also think he probably wouldn’t remember it because he will be there as this flawed baby creature unlike Dumbleodre and the people that Harry summoned with the stone whose souls are whole and so move on into the after life just as they were while being alive.



Last edited by SMAC; September 19th, 2007 at 4:51 am.
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  #33  
Old September 19th, 2007, 5:11 am
Aliena  Undisclosed.gif Aliena is offline
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

It is Voldemort's soul, which was residing in his body, though I think calling it 'a piece' isn't entirely accurate. I don't agree with the "all eight soul pieces are the same size" theory, so I think this 'piece' is larger than all the others. I think it is Voldemort's "main" soul, from which pieces have been removed. (In the other thread someone made reference to an amputee, and I think that's kind of a way to illustrate my thought. You wouldn't call an amputee 'a piece' of a person; they would still a person, just missing a limb(s) - though the limbs might be called 'pieces' of the person.) I also don't agree with the "can not exist doesn't mean can not exist at all" theory, and I believe that when we're told the Harrycrux is destroyed and gone that means it is destroyed and gone on all planes of existence.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

I think she's right. I think that if, at the end, Voldemort had shown remorse as Harry urged him, things might have turned out differently. Because he did not, he is doomed to exist in the maimed and mutilated state he created for his soul.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

Yes, I think so.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

I think the double bond between Harry and Voldemort, both the Horcrux and the blood connection, had their souls and minds inextricably intertwined. When Harry's soul went to King's Cross, Voldemort's had no choice but to come along, which caused Voldemort's collapse.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

I think he was in his own version of King's Cross, but I don't think he was really aware of his surroundings. The beaten and broken state of his soul is one factor for this, but I think in real time, both were 'out' for only a few seconds. When Harry returns, he hears "hurried footsteps, whispers, and solicitous murmurs" - to me, this indicates that Voldemort had just fallen, and the Death Eaters were in the initial stage of surprised/shocked reaction. In the few seconds it takes for Bellatrix to 'find her voice' and speak to Voldemort, he regains consciousness. If the same amount of real time had passed as time in King's Cross, I think the Death Eaters would already have been gathered around Voldemort, and I think at least one of them would have already checked on Harry to see if he was really dead. I think that since Voldemort didn't have anyone with whom to have a nice little chat , his experience in Limbo (best described, perhaps, as 'near-death' or 'out-of-body') would have passed in real time, and so would have been fleeting.

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?

I am intrigued by the thought that it might be related to Voldemort destroying his own Horcrux; we know it wasn't the destruction of the Horcrux alone, because he didn't collapse when Nagini was killed, but the idea that destroying a part of one's own soul would lead to collapse seems plausible to me. (I do still think it was the connection between Harry and Voldemort, but I can see this aspect of it as well.)


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  #34  
Old September 19th, 2007, 5:19 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
I believe the "one last chance and hope" for Voldemort that Dumbledore referred to, was a better existence than what they saw of Voldy in King's Cross -- not the same as if he had an intact soul, but healing nonetheless. It would have merely helped to heal the one pitiful piece he had left. And the chance/hope was identified by Dumbledore as given by the remnant of Lily's sacrifice in Voldemort's blood, not by some type of reunification. Dumbledore also hoped Grindelwald had felt remorse for his actions, and Grindelwald did not make a horcrux. So remorse is apparently good for the soul under any conditions.
This is my opinion, as well. I think we are meant to understand that all the horcruxes were utterly destroyed and could not be brought back by any form of "reunification." What I think might have happened had Voldemort felt any actual remorse was just what you've said: a somewhat better ending than the helpless thing we saw.

Wandrider, Dumbledore used the word "destroyed," which is pretty close to the words I chose in my post. And there is this quote:

Hermione, DH, p.104"The fragment of soul inside it depends on its container, its enchanted body, for survival. It can't exist without it."


I don't think any of Voldemort's horcruxes were viable at the time he met Harry in the Great Hall. They were just gone, irretrievable.


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  #35  
Old September 19th, 2007, 5:34 am
FleurduJardin  Female.gif FleurduJardin is offline
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but is this thread very different from "The Flayed Baby at King's Cross"?

It seems to me the consensus is that "creature" or "flayed baby" is Voldemort's soul, pieced together as best as can be after having been split so much. Irretrievable because of his own inhumanity, its total incapability of feeling positive emotions like love, loyalty or compassion. By comparison, I'm not too worried about, for example, Snape's soul ending up that badly.

I still don't quite see how "remorse" at the last moment would have redeemed Tom Riddle and would be grateful if someone explained it to me, thanks.

P.S. I didn't vote in the poll because I don't think it's "a piece of Voldemort's soul", I think it's all of it, all the component parts put back together as best as can be.


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  #36  
Old September 19th, 2007, 5:39 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

I don't really think that the creature was literally a "piece of soul from Voldemort" but more a representation of what he had become.


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  #37  
Old September 19th, 2007, 5:59 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Excuse me if I'm wrong, but is this thread very different from "The Flayed Baby at King's Cross"?
This thread has taken the place of the old Flayed Baby thread and the "What Happened to Voldemort in the Forbidden Forest" thread. We decided that they were linked enough to discuss in one thread, which allows for better discussion of points that are linked to both previous threads. The opening post of the thread contains a bit more information .


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  #38  
Old September 19th, 2007, 6:00 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

I think the child was definately a piece of Voldemort's soul, but not just the piece that was destroyed in Harry's scar. It was the part that continued to reside with Voldemort. It was what was left after all of Voldemort's crimes. It's what remains of the core of his being.

JKR made a point especially in the last two books of laying out the contrast between Harry and Voldemort's souls. The book 7 King's Cross scene is the visual presentation of that theme. We see their souls in King's Cross, or physical representations of them. In HBP when asked if Voldemort could be killed without his horcruxes, Dumbledore responds by saying "Without his Horcruxes, Voldemort would be a mortal man with a maimed and diminished soul." That is an exact description of the child under the chair at King's Cross.

I find it sort of irrelevent whether Voldemort experienced Kings Cross as Harry did. JKR wrote the scenes in a way to lead us to believe that they had been in the same state and in the same place. All the assesments of it being just in Harry's mind can be countered by Dumbledore's answer that just becasue it happened in Harry's head doesn't mean it wasn't real. It had also been confirmed that there was a double bond between Harry and Voldemort's souls. The Horcruxes and Lily's blood. The blood connection lived on when the Horcrux in Harry was destroyed. I think that Voldemort was bound to Harry and was forced into the King's Cross scene because of it. That it all happened inside Harry's head still holds up because when Snape declares on page 685 "Souls? We are speaking of minds!" Dumbledore responds by saying "In the case of Harry and Voldemort, to speak of one is to speak of the other".


I think that the presence of Voldemort at the Kings Cross scene is the link to the last hope for Voldemort that Dumbledore alluded to, and that JKR has since also spoke of. It was spoken of but not specifically explained. From earlier in the book we already knew that remorse is the way to piece the soul back together. Harry used that information to offer Voldemort his last chance. It seemed rediculous that Harry even tried. We all knew Voldemort would never take it. But I think the fact that Harry still tried was the learning of his last important lesson.

Based on what we know, the blood connection was somehow what allowed Voldemort his last chance at mercy. How did Lily's blood give him a chance? In the past it had only acted offensively against him. I think it is that through the blood, Harry was bound to Voldemort and bound to see him as he was at Kings Cross. In seeing Voldemort's retched form at Kings Cross Harry learned a few things. One was that he could feel pity for Voldemort, the one person who he had suppressed any feeling of compassion for, even refusing to feel or rather acknowledge feeling sorry for the infant Riddle who's mother abandoned him. Harry finnally recognized enough pity for Voldemort to offer him mercy, not from harm to his body, but the more important option of saving Voldemort's shattered soul. "I've seen what you'll be..." He doesnt say "Drop that wand, you are surrounded and out numbered about 200 to 1." Its a big shift in Harry's thinking.

The second important thing Harry learned through observing the maimed Voldemort was that pity has its place and its limits. Dumbledore emphasized that Harry couldnt help the creature. In the final moments of the meeting when Harry once more looks back at the thing under the chair Dumbledore gives his final and best advice of the series "Do not pity the dead, Harry, pity the living and above all those who live without love." That seems to contradict the first lesson. At second glance however I see the combined message to be that hope never completely dies for a person to redeem themesleves, that all, no matter how seemingly worthless can be pitied but that in the end the ball is in their court. Personal choice is what matters more than anything in the end. I think it was Harry's duty to offer Voldemort his chance at the end in order for Harry to be completely victorious, to Voldemort's fate completely in Voldemort's hands. So Voldemort's last hope was Harry and himself. Harry did his part, Voldemort didnt and never would have.

All of this I think is linked to the fact that Voldemort dies in a way that at once makes Harry the winner of a duel and at the same time guiltless of murder.


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Old September 19th, 2007, 7:08 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
I think it was a piece of Voldemort's soul.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?
I always thought it was the piece that resided in Harry.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?
I think that really sucks for him.... It's just a story so I'm not bothered by it, but if it were real I wouldn't like it because I don't think anyone should have to exist in misery for eternity.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?
I don't think so.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?
I think it was kind of like how Harry's wand acted of its own accord when Voldemort was chasing him.... Voldemort and Harry's fates were so entwined that I think Voldemort remained unconscious while Harry was in the in-between world. As soon as Harry came back, Voldemort regained consciousness. If Harry had decided to move on and die, Voldemort would've regained consciousness then too. While Harry was stuck in between, Voldemort was put on pause. If that makes sense, I don't know, this question kind of stumps me.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?
He was just unconscious.


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  #40  
Old September 19th, 2007, 7:53 am
FleurduJardin  Female.gif FleurduJardin is offline
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?
He was just unconscious.
Hmmm... I'm not so sure about that. He may have had his own version of King's Cross, that may be why he asked Narcissa to make sure that Harry is really dead. I think he thought at one point that he was dead, then found out he wasn't. He wanted to make sure the same wasn't true for Harry.

Quote:
It's just a story so I'm not bothered by it, but if it were real I wouldn't like it because I don't think anyone should have to exist in misery for eternity.
If someone deserved to exist in misery for eternity, it was Tom Riddle/Voldemort. I have no compassion whatsoever for him. Look at all the deaths and sufferings he caused in his life, including among his own followers, let alone among his enemies, or people who just happened to be in this way!


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