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Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2



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  #21  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:29 pm
fruitia pickleweed  Female.gif fruitia pickleweed is offline
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Knitting patterns a hint? Not really.

The male characters we actually see knitting are one, Hagrid (remember in book 1, Hagrid knitting something that looked like a yellow tent in the London Underground?), and we know Hagrid was crazy about Madame Maxime, and also does his own mending and darning. And two, Dobby (the Christmas socks for Harry).

The number of female knitters is also just two, I believe, Mrs. Weasley and Hermione. Did I miss anybody?

I wasn't sure Dumbledore was being serious, when he claimed to have been reading a knitting magazine in the bathroom, but it was absolutely hilarious either way.



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  #22  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:46 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

wow, v2 already

I love Dumbledore, and the fact that he is gay doesnt change much, or at least not the wayi look at him. It does change how i feel about JKR, but in a good way. It had to take so much courage to reveal something like this. Also, i feel that its because of this, homosexuality may be a smaller problem and people won't hate it as much as before (i notice no one has chosen the last answer on the poll yet.)


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  #23  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:47 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I think right now a big controversy is whether Albus Dumbledore engaged in a gay relationship with another person after his estrangement from Gellert Grindelwald.

I think because of the way his relationship with Grindelwald ended so tragically, it shook Albus' personal beliefs to the core, and in "turning over a new leaf" he personally decided not to have such a relationship anymore up to the time of his death, instead devoting his life to Hogwarts. That's already evident even by the time he first met Tom Marvolo Riddle in 1938, if you remember from Half-Blood Prince. Dumbledore may have flamboyant tastes in clothes, but (in my opinion!) that might be easy to cover up in the wizarding world, where clothing styles are probably more flamboyant than the Muggle world.


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  #24  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:50 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by Xaquin View Post
if we're talking about dress, then I'd wager that some 90% of the WW must be homosexual.

what woman issues does DD have?

honestly curious.

also, I wouldn't say that knitting equals gay (thats kind of laughable no offense).
I addressed this in the old thread and also said that it's about rather prejudiced hints. But then there are more too obvious hints about other stuff.

Knitting does not equal being gay, but it shows his female side. As knitting is mostly considered woman stuff. Also the choice of colours (not the dress itself) is rather what mostly females would consider IMO, at least I know no man who would wear purple things.

Same as Tonks shows a boyish behaviour (short hair, being a tomboy etc) and hence labeled gay by a lot of people.


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  #25  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:57 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Please everyone, do not reply to or discuss deleted posts. It is a matter of fairness to allow or delete both sides. So let us focus on one or several of the many fabulous study questions Morgoth came up with!


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  #26  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:59 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Oops, didn't know it was deleted , I just looked up at the post on top of mine. Sorry.


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  #27  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 11:19 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I was surprised to find out JKR always considered DD as gay. There are no definitive signs of it that I recall, in any of the books. Many wizards dress in bright colors, so his liking of this doesn't stand out. We don't get to witness any of the scenes of him with Grindlewald, so their 'friendship' can't truly be seen as gay, or even one-sided attraction, other than their intellectual kinship.

As far as the liking of knitting patterns - have any of you ever seen knitting patterns? They are very complex, and often difficult to follow. They remind me of my old programming days for mainframe, where in Assembler language, you had to program each character per line of output. Perhaps DD's fascination was with the way they were presented, rather than for the actual knitting pattern, since we aren't ever shown him knitting.

Anyway, what I'd like to say is that for JKR to come out and say, after 7 volumes of her epic story, that one of her main characters is gay, and yet she managed to keep this under her hat for all this time is nothing short of amazing. There are only a few vague hints that can be explained away easily if a person so desires.

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  #28  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 11:26 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?
Not sure what this has to do with homosexuality. Does it imply that home-schooled children might know less about homosexuality, because they have less contact with the outside world?
I'd believe it depends on the family.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?
The latter. The reason why it's not an issue is because no one in the wizarding world mentions it; not even in a gay bashing way. The only mention of implied homosexuality is by a Muggle, Dudley Dursley. So I guess homosexuality is more of a taboo in the wizarding world than in the Muggle world.

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?
I believe it's the same as in the Muggle world.

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?
Definitely. I have said on the original thread that I believe Death Eaters consider pure-blood homosexuals as bad as blood traitors, and so they would probably consider half-blood or Muggle-borns homosexuals as the scum of the scum. Like in Nazi concentration camps, where homosexuals were at the bottom of the prisoner hierarchy.


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  #29  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 11:37 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I hope no one makes a big deal out of this. Rowling has said the Wizarding World exists alongside our own. We have gay people, so there is no reason to think there are no homosexual witches or wizards. Since sexuality was not prevalent to the main plot of the books, there was no real reason to discuss it. Does anyone really worry about the sexuality of their teachers when they're in school? I didn't.


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  #30  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 11:44 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?
I was a bit surprised at first. I mean, it wasn't totally unexpected, but it was never something I had really thought about. It never seemed important at all to the story, for me anyway. The romantic relationships of the other characters, such as the trio, etc., seemed more important to the plot and relevent to their development as characters. To me, Dumbledore already just was. His character had already been thorough all that, so it doesn't change anything. Dumbledore is Dumbledore.

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay? (Not every character is going to be gay, so try to give believable evidence against wishful evidence)
Honestly, like with Dumbledore, it was never really soemthing I thought about. If they presented a character as having a romantic relationship of any sort, then I went along with it. I never spent time thinking about who would end up together because honestly, well, it was never something that really occured to me at all. I think that yes, with the number of characters we have been introduced to that it is very others of them are gay, but as to who, I'm just not going to go there.

3. Do you believe that magic offers new avenues of approach in regards to philosophical and scientific thought? If so, is it possible that homosexuality is less of a cultural issue than in the Muggle world or would wizards and witches simply find a new way to discriminate regardless?
It seems to me, from what we've seen, that there are larger issues in the Wizarding world than someone's sexuality. (And quite honestly, I think it should be that way in our own world as well. But that's not for this topic, is it?) But really, there probably isn't much of a difference between the two worlds, is there? People seemed to discrminate against the same types of thing in the wizarding world as the do in they muggle world, but they do so with magic.

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?
It would have an affect, for sure, especially if the children only ever hear the views of their parents and no others. But then again, if it isn't something that is ever discussed, then it will leave the children able to form their own opinions.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?
Delving into unexplored realms, I'd say. As I said before, I think the time period at which we entered the Wizarding world, there were such larger issues at large than sexuality, that there simply wasn't any point to even bring it up. Which is probably why Jo didn't.

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?
In the Wizarding World?? The yes, it would appear so. Most of the reasons that people were blasted off of the Black Family Tree at Grimmauld Place were because they married muggles or "blood traitors", not because they married people of the same gender. Maybe it was just because this was not something Jo wasnted to deal with in the books. It's never an issue that comes up. More important things going on.

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?
This question is so hard to answer. We know so little at this point about the Wizarding world's view of homosexuality, that it is extremely difficult to say whether or not it is even an issue to wizards at all. As I mentioned before, I think Jo wanted to focus more on other things, such as the important of love, and also how being from a "good" family does not make a good person. If it was one of the issues she had wanted to adress or amke a point about, she peobably would have included Dumbledore's sexuality in the books at some point. So while a student may be much more persecuted for being both from a low-status family and gay in the muggle world, to me it's too hard to say if that is true in the wizarding world. I believe the answer would be yes, but we just have so little on this subject it's hard to say.


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  #31  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 11:46 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?

I guess that blood-status is a bigger issue in general. Especially in the case of DEs, who see half-bloods and muggle-borns as scum anyway. So they probably couldn't discriminate against them any more than they already do. On the other hand, I'm sure that purebloods would still have to produce pureblood children, so homosexuality may actually be a bigger problem for them than for non-purebloods. It's also possible, I think, that there may be people who don't care about blood status but are against homosexuals.

We do see a lot of discrimantion against non-purebloods, but none at all against homosexuals. However, we have to remember that the books take place at a time when a groupe that's obsessed with blood status tries to take over the WW. This naturally makes blood-status the number one issue. But it's difficult to tell how important it really is in Wizard society at times of peace. It may well be that normally blood-status is about as important or less important than sexuality. But since we have no clue how homosexuality is seen in the WW, that's pure speculation.


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  #32  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 11:51 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?
Truth be told? I was actually quite surprised. I was always one of those people who liked the idea that he and McGonagall had something going on on the side. Sure, I know it was never supported as canon, but I never outright shipped them, either. It was just a simple thought that made me lol whenever it would pop into my head.

So yes, the fact that Dumbledore is gay took me by great surprise. However, now that he's been outed I think I see the signs. All of the revelations about his relationship with Grindewald in DH does seem like it could be pointed in a homosexual direction. When I picture the scene where Grindewald and Aberforth had their fight and Dumbledore tried to stop them before Ariana was killed, it always seemed to play out like something almost slightly romantic.

And then Dumbledore had to face his lover in battle and defeat him. Wow...I would actually almost kinda like to read a book about that. What a battle that must have been.

And such a book would probably be a success. Young teenage love between two handsome wizard boys...I bet there are a lot of girls who would like that anyway. :P


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  #33  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:00 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan001 View Post
I think right now a big controversy is whether Albus Dumbledore engaged in a gay relationship with another person after his estrangement from Gellert Grindelwald.

I think because of the way his relationship with Grindelwald ended so tragically, it shook Albus' personal beliefs to the core, and in "turning over a new leaf" he personally decided not to have such a relationship anymore up to the time of his death, instead devoting his life to Hogwarts. That's already evident even by the time he first met Tom Marvolo Riddle in 1938, if you remember from Half-Blood Prince. Dumbledore may have flamboyant tastes in clothes, but (in my opinion!) that might be easy to cover up in the wizarding world, where clothing styles are probably more flamboyant than the Muggle world.
Actually, i'm more of wondering if he was in a gay relationship before Grindelwald. After such a tragic relationship, i'm almost sure he wouldn't want to be in another gay relationship, or possibly even in a normal relationship


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  #34  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:06 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

There is only one other character that I thought was gay, and that was Flitwick. I can't really explain why I thought that: it was just a feeling I had. And as for Dumbledore? I had a feeling about him too. Not anything I can justify, really.


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  #35  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:09 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
Actually, i'm more of wondering if he was in a gay relationship before Grindelwald. After such a tragic relationship, i'm almost sure he wouldn't want to be in another gay relationship, or possibly even in a normal relationship
They were still young when they got to work with each other. 17 I think was it. I don't think then that there was time and space for a deep relationship before that. But then it was never said if Grindelwald returned the feelings.

He was never mentioned to be seen with any gender (more than simple friendship), so I don't think either that he had any kind of sexual relationship after the Grindelwald time.


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  #36  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:25 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
Actually, i'm more of wondering if he was in a gay relationship before Grindelwald. After such a tragic relationship, i'm almost sure he wouldn't want to be in another gay relationship, or possibly even in a normal relationship
I do believe that Dumbledore is gay and therefore not about to switch to a heterosexual relationship no matter how badly Grindlewald may have hurt him. Remember, Dumbledore is gay not bi-sexual. Now whether or not he entered into another serious relationship after Grindlewald hurt him is beyond our knowledge and is left to speculation. I tend to believe; however, that time heals all wounds and Dumbledore would find the strength to love again.


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  #37  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:26 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I think it only appears that way to the person who reads it. Being a member of 'that' tribe, I'm quite familiar with the 'oh he or she is gay' feeling. [Staff edit: Inappropriate]

I always thought that Remus/Sirius would come to be, but alas, I was wrong. I always hoped that Tonks was gay.



Last edited by kingwidgit; October 23rd, 2007 at 12:28 am. Reason: Inappropriate
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  #38  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:28 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

While I was a bit surprised, I personally think it makes a whole lot more sense for Dumbledore to be gay in my opinion. It doesn't change the way I feel about him at all. It certainly explains why Dumbledore was so quick to follow Grindelwald's plans, and why it took him so long to go and defeat him. It probably also explains alot of other things, but I'll have to go re-read to find them specifically.


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  #39  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:40 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

No, I didn't as a matter of fact think that DD is gay. It came as a shock.
Then- I loved the idea completely! And felt deep love and respect for J.K.Rowling, once again, for teaching us tolerance. Again. Yes, Jo!!! *hug *hug *hug. Brave and inspiring this is in our world of growing intolerance and alienation.




Last edited by HarrietaPotter; October 23rd, 2007 at 12:42 am.
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  #40  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:49 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?
I actually was surprised because I hadn't really given much thought to his sexuality. I don't think it changes anything at all - it just helps us to see Dumbledore's personality in a different light.

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay? (Not every character is going to be gay, so try to give believable evidence against wishful evidence)
I don't think so, unless it was a minor character.

3. Do you believe that magic offers new avenues of approach in regards to philosophical and scientific thought? If so, is it possible that homosexuality is less of a cultural issue than in the Muggle world or would wizards and witches simply find a new way to discriminate regardless?
I do think it might be an issue in the wizarding world, but perhaps not as big an issue as it is in the muggle world. The wizarding world seems to take issue with things like werewolves more than homosexuality.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?
I don't think this was something really explored by the series. Though the books certainly did touch upon intolerance and bigotry, it doesn't seem as though negative feelings toward homosexuality were really included on-page. There may have been prejudiced feelings toward homosexuals in the wizarding world though.

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?
That seems most likely to me. More of a big deal was made out of someone being a half blood or a mudblood rather than someone being homosexual. But to be fair we really haven't seen any wizard's reaction to a homosexual person.

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?
I'd agree with that. When you have more than one stigma, you're much more likely to be the subject of hostility and intolerance.


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