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Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2



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  #41  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 12:59 am
TheCurio  Female.gif TheCurio is offline
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

3. Do you believe that magic offers new avenues of approach in regards to philosophical and scientific thought? If so, is it possible that homosexuality is less of a cultural issue than in the Muggle world or would wizards and witches simply find a new way to discriminate regardless?
I think that the people, bust because of what they have the ability to study (and longer life...people can study longer if they have a longer life) because of magic, I think they have new ways to approach philosophy, but I don't think that homosexuality would be less of an issue. It would probably be the same, like muggles, many wizards are afraid of those who are different (centaurs, house elves, goblins....).

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?
Their views would probably mirror those of their parents pretty closely.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?
I think we're delving into unexplored realms. THis could have been going on the whole time, but Harry either didn't care, or had more important things to do.

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?
Well, that's hard to say as we haven't viewed any instances of wizard homosexuality or sexualities to compare it to.

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?
It depends on the views of who is doing the discriminating. Somebody who is okay with homosexuality may not be okay with race/blood.


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  #42  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 1:06 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by Fairygdmther View Post
I was surprised to find out JKR always considered DD as gay. There are no definitive signs of it that I recall, in any of the books. Many wizards dress in bright colors, so his liking of this doesn't stand out. We don't get to witness any of the scenes of him with Grindlewald, so their 'friendship' can't truly be seen as gay, or even one-sided attraction, other than their intellectual kinship.

As far as the liking of knitting patterns - have any of you ever seen knitting patterns? They are very complex, and often difficult to follow. They remind me of my old programming days for mainframe, where in Assembler language, you had to program each character per line of output. Perhaps DD's fascination was with the way they were presented, rather than for the actual knitting pattern, since we aren't ever shown him knitting.

Anyway, what I'd like to say is that for JKR to come out and say, after 7 volumes of her epic story, that one of her main characters is gay, and yet she managed to keep this under her hat for all this time is nothing short of amazing. There are only a few vague hints that can be explained away easily if a person so desires.

FGM
I totally agree with you!! I have read and re-read the series multiple times and the idea of Dumbledore being gay NEVER occurred to me!! I think the vague "hints" that people say should have tipped us off can be explained in any number of ways, not neccesarily jumping to the conclusion of "gay". In my opinion, that type of stereotyping (style of clothing, knitting, etc.) can be dangerous.


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  #43  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 1:31 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I don't get why J.K. said this at all. If you read through the books, You'll find no reason to even THINK that Dumbledore MIGHT be gay. It just doesn't make sense, [author bashing removed]



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  #44  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 1:43 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Let's watch how we classify the decision and keep things friendly please. We have strong opinions but we can be kind about them.


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  #45  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 1:50 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by Evil_Toast View Post
I don't get why J.K. said this at all. If you read through the books, You'll find no reason to even THINK that Dumbledore MIGHT be gay. It just doesn't make sense.
That is not something that does matter . Ones sexual orientation just doesn't matter. What matter is that Dumbledore was able to love and he loved most deeply. What Rowlin gave us was a character who was so brilliant and beloved but then again probably never said one true thing about his personal life except what kind of candy he likes. This person is Dumbledore and he is gay. That made Dumbledore that marvellous person that he is - he loved and lost and lived with it and that is most important. He loved; he was able to love.


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  #46  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 1:59 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Let's keep this thread away from JKR's decision to go public. We've got an excellent thread on that topic here:JK Rowling: Revelations Since Deathly Hallows

To get this back on topic does anyone think there is gay marriage in the wizarding world? Why or why not?


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  #47  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 2:48 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

You know that is an interesting question. There is no real religion in the wizarding world, which is what we use as a partial basis to rationalize it's illegality. But in the wizarding world you wouldn't have this issue. It is entirely possible that it was allowed, although, they do demonstrate prejudices which may prevent the openness required to keep gay marriage legal.


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  #48  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:18 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?
Why should it change anything? I love the fact that the wizarding world is so much more tolerant than the real world and I wouldn't change it for anything. But yeah I was sort of surprised at first and then I thought that I should have seen it coming..


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  #49  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:28 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

We never saw gay marriage in the wizarding world, but we did see a lot of prejudices there. I think they're probably at the same stage of openness on the subject as most of our nonwizarding societies are. Cerrtainly there are people who are opposed to homosexuality on religious grounds in our world, but I also know people of no religion who are opposed to it for other reasons (so IMHO the lack of any noticeable organized religion in the wizarding world wouldn't mean there'd be no antipathy to gay marriage).


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  #50  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:30 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by Jessica View Post
To get this back on topic does anyone think there is gay marriage in the wizarding world? Why or why not?
I think there probably is, but it's a kind of "hushed up" thing, especially during the times when Voldemort had power. I'm thinking that if he didn't like muggles, muggle borns, blood traitors, half bloods, etc, he probably didn't like homosexuals.


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  #51  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:33 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by Tonks View Post
You know that is an interesting question. There is no real religion in the wizarding world, which is what we use as a partial basis to rationalize it's illegality. But in the wizarding world you wouldn't have this issue. It is entirely possible that it was allowed, although, they do demonstrate prejudices which may prevent the openness required to keep gay marriage legal.
That's true becuase it was just a magical binding, which we saw in Bill and Fleur's wedding, so they can't really say that marriage is something that is between one man and one woman only, only that it is a binding between two people, usually one man and one woman.


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  #52  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:45 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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That's true becuase it was just a magical binding, which we saw in Bill and Fleur's wedding, so they can't really say that marriage is something that is between one man and one woman only, only that it is a binding between two people, usually one man and one woman.
Exactly, so it is entirely possible to have it be acceptable. Now whether or not people would actually accept a gay couple is a different question that goes back to how the wizarding world views homosexuality.


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  #53  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:50 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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I tend to believe; however, that time heals all wounds and Dumbledore would find the strength to love again.
I have to disagree based on what happened when Harry talked Aberforth just before the final battle at Hogwarts in Deathly Hallows. Note that Aberforth still held a lot of misgivings for his older brother, and still blames Albus for the untimely death of Ariana.

It is of my personal belief that the tragic end of Albus' relationship with Gellert Grindelwald drastically changed Albus' life; that's why you see Albus devote pretty much the rest of his life to Hogwarts, and it's quite unlikely Albus would engage in another gay relationship.


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  #54  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:52 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?
I was "surprised" in that I did not have any clue about Dumbledore's sexual orientation prior to Jo's statement. I don't consider myself to be truly surprised, though, because to me it's just another interesting piece of information on a complex character who is full of eccentricity and personality. I was much more shocked to find out that Dumbledore was friends with Grindelwald than to find out that Dumbledore's feelings for Grindeldwald went beyond friendship. It does explain why Dumbledore was so apt to go along with Grindelwald's ideas initially (the whole "love is blind" thing not allowing one to see fault in a loved one) and his later reluctance to confront the dark wizard until it became blatantly obvious that he had to be stopped at all costs. The new info on Dumbledore does not in any way take away from the ultimate coolness that is Albus, in my opinion. He's still the man!

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay? (Not every character is going to be gay, so try to give believable evidence against wishful evidence)
Not a clue. I tend not to speculate on this, since unless a character's preference is spelled out in the books or in a comment by Jo (and in many cases, even if it is), it's not enough of a defining characteristic for me to put much thought into. After all, if we suddenly learned that Trelawny or Justin Finch Fletchley or Parvati was gay, would it make that much difference in our response to their characters? Not to me, it wouldn't.(And I just picked those names at random, so I'm not suggesting orientation for any of them)

3. Do you believe that magic offers new avenues of approach in regards to philosophical and scientific thought? If so, is it possible that homosexuality is less of a cultural issue than in the Muggle world or would wizards and witches simply find a new way to discriminate regardless?
We've seen discrimination in the wizarding world mainly on the basis of blood status and to a lesser extent on wealth (although really, that was just Malfoy--no one else insulted the Weasleys on their lack of wealth, and overall, it seemed they were a respected bunch). I don't know that I get the sense that sexual orientation is that big a deal in the wizarding world, and it makes sense that it isn't--the magical community is spread out, hiding amongst the muggles, and to some sense isolated. I get the feeling that wizarding households are little enclaves in and of themselves, and it seems to me that whatever a witch or wizard does in her/his own bedroom is not considered a topic of public importance. There seems to be a greater respect for individual privacy and freedom in the wizarding world--after all, look what Fred and George got up to in their bedroom, and no one ever investigated to find a budding joke shop!

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?
Well, I think in general that a child will reflect his/her parents' outlook and prejudices. That said, I suspect, as per my answer to #3, wizarding families don't teach their kids to be biased, so the bulk of the prejudice against gay wizards/witches comes from muggleborns, who are probably taught early that, as the magical community does have a lot of tolerance for eccentricity and individuality, this is not a matter on which you judge people in that community.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories? Yes, this is really just not expressed at all in the stories. We can form our own opinions by reading between the lines (as I have, as evidenced by the above answers), but there's just no canon evidence to truly suggest one way or another.

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?
Like I said above, the only people we've seen judging others on the basis of class and social standing are the Malfoys, who are just jerks. Arthur seems to be respected by other witches and wizards, even if they don't appreciate his fascination with muggles. Bill, Charlie, and Percy were all honored at school (prefects, Quidditch captain, head boys) and went on to respectable and successful careers. Fred and George were popular and their joke shop was a resounding success, clearly patronized by tons of magical folk who did not have a problem doing business with the Weasleys. My take is that sexuality has not been shown to be important in the wizarding world, while class is important only to people who would insult anyway for "blood traitor" activity--remember, Bellatrix called Ron a blood traitor rather than a poor boy when she confronted him in Malfoy Manor.

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say? Again, I get the sense that witches and wizards don't care so much about gay/straight orientation, that it's considered private and personal and not that important. There would be more discrimination, but I really do get the sense that it's only on the basis of blood status.


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  #55  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:53 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by padfootrules View Post
1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?
Why should it change anything? I love the fact that the wizarding world is so much more tolerant than the real world and I wouldn't change it for anything. But yeah I was sort of surprised at first and then I thought that I should have seen it coming..
What evidence is there that the wizarding world was more tolerant? The whole series thrives on discrimination issues.


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  #56  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 3:56 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Well, I think in general that a child will reflect his/her parents' outlook and prejudices. That said, I suspect, as per my answer to #3, wizarding families don't teach their kids to be biased, so the bulk of the prejudice against gay wizards/witches comes from muggleborns, who are probably taught early that, as the magical community does have a lot of tolerance for eccentricity and individuality, this is not a matter on which you judge people in that community.
What do you mean they don't teach their kids to be biased? Malfoy was biased towards those of less "pure" blood, as were Crabbe, and Goyle, and basically all the Slytherins, so why couldn't they be biased about other things?


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  #57  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 4:04 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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What do you mean they don't teach their kids to be biased? Malfoy was biased towards those of less "pure" blood, as were Crabbe, and Goyle, and basically all the Slytherins, so why couldn't they be biased about other things?
Sorry, I meant that they don't teach bias on the basis of sexuality. Certainly there's the blood-based bias that's demonstrated everywhere from COS on in the series, but I just don't get a sense that there's that much concern from the magical community about what goes on in an individual's private life. I may be totally off base, but when I think about how much nonconformity there is in the magical world, I just don't see sexuality as being that big of a talking point for them.


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  #58  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 4:08 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by SactoMan001 View Post
I have to disagree based on what happened when Harry talked Aberforth just before the final battle at Hogwarts in Deathly Hallows. Note that Aberforth still held a lot of misgivings for his older brother, and still blames Albus for the untimely death of Ariana.

It is of my personal belief that the tragic end of Albus' relationship with Gellert Grindelwald drastically changed Albus' life; that's why you see Albus devote pretty much the rest of his life to Hogwarts, and it's quite unlikely Albus would engage in another gay relationship.

It is possible, but what bothers me about this is that "gay" relationship is specified. Dumbledore is gay, there are no other relationships he could or would be in. I feel it is better to say that he would not be in another relationship or romantic relationship, rather than a gay relationship. It makes it sound like he could start a relationship with anyone...


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  #59  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 4:18 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I think that it is completely admirable that JK would come out with this information after the books had gained such immense popularity. Very smart [yet risky] on her part. To me, it does not change anything. I never thought of Dumbledore as sexual, so him being homosexual does not bother me in the least. I assume that there were other homosexual characters in the books, although JK has not comfirmed that as this time. However, I think it immensely powerful that she instilled a very positive image in most of us about DD, then later disclosed his sexuality. This was so smart on her part. Some people are naive and ignorant, and had she said from the very beginning that DD was gay, how many people would not have read the books? And now that so many people have read the books, does it really change anything? Not to me, it doesn't.


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  #60  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 4:25 am
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?

Well, I guess I was somewhat surprised but it actually never crossed my mind while reading the books what his sexual orientation was. For me, it changes nothing about the character of Dumbledore.

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay? (Not every character is going to be gay, so try to give believable evidence against wishful evidence)

Again, this is not something I remember pondering while reading the books. It really would not have made any difference to me one way or the other.

3. Do you believe that magic offers new avenues of approach in regards to philosophical and scientific thought? If so, is it possible that homosexuality is less of a cultural issue than in the Muggle world or would wizards and witches simply find a new way to discriminate regardless?

Well, some wizards and witches did discriminate against half-bloods, squibs, muggle borns, and muggles so it is possible that they would discriminate against homosexuality but in my mind, unlikely. The books were about piecing together a puzzle and uniting as one to overcome evil so in the end, it was about good versus bad, not sexual orientation.

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?

It would depend upon the family and their beliefs and morals, I believe. Some families may have taught tolerance and diversity while others may have taught their kids that class was the most important thing. The Weasley's certainly seem the type to teach their children tolerance whereas the Malfoy family would be more worried about class.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?

I don't think the stories put any weight on sexual orientation. For me, that's not what they are about.

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?

Probably in the minds of the Malfoy's class and social standing was more important, but the Weasley's cared little about wealth and I doubt they would have reacted poorly to having a child that was homosexual.

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?

Again, I see nothing to suggest that homosexuality is an issue in the magic world.


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