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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6



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  #241  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 6:04 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
You mean, for the pragmatic reason of having Harry believe his message? He could have trusted to the (fairly convincing) evidence of the memories within the timeline of the series. Just the memory Harry really needed, alone, proved the Silver Doe was Snape's Patronus, and Snape thus was the mysterious provider of the Sword of Gryffindor.
I would say that it was his primary reason for doing so. One memory may have sufficed but Snape would not want to take a chance like that. At that point, he was dying, had nothing to lose and had no other choice. I don't think he cared about how people remembered him.

IMO if Snape had been alive, he wouldn't have given Harry all those memories. He would probably have told him a watered down story of how he liked Lily, mentioned the sword and patronus and had Dumbledore and perhaps the other portraits back him up.


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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
What really surprises me is the inclusion of the memory in which Snape is crying over Lily's letter. This is the same person who made that speech about "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves." It strikes me as incredibly significant that Snape was willing to show such emotion, especially since he had no idea Harry knew of the letter.
Actually, I think that was put there for the benefit of the readers. As for his little speech, I think he was referencing himself as well when he said that.



Last edited by wolfbrother; January 22nd, 2012 at 6:15 pm.
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  #242  
Old January 23rd, 2012, 1:42 am
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
With all due respect we don't know exactly what Snape would have thought about it. For all we know he may have felt that at last Harry had recognised his efforts. Snape does seem to show some pleasure when Harry understands that his job for the Order is spying on Voldemort.

"No that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.
He had not meant to say it;it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
"Yes Potter,"he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again."
(OotP, Seen and Unforseen)

So I just don't think we can asssume that Snape would have completely hated it.
I didn't take Snape's reaction in OOTP as pleasure that Harry understood that it was Snape's job to spy on Voldemort. I thought it was more a snide grimace at Harry's snarky reminder to him of what he's supposed to be doing.

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
But then, when he is dying and Harry comes to him, Snape expends his final effort and dying moments desperately trying to convey his memories to Harry. He pulls Harry to himself, he urges Harry to take his memories, forcing the words out despite the trauma to his neck and throat, and dies when the memories and his blood leave him.

And what he conveys in this final communication to Harry, is far more that the one thing Dumbledore has asked Snape to convey, the one thing Harry needs to know so that Voldemort could be defeated. Harry learns that Snape loved Lily almost all his life, that and that he was true to Dumbledore and the mission he had accepted to protect Harry. Because Snape told him.
As others have said, the purpose of giving Harry the memories of his relationship with Lily was to instill complete trust in Harry so that the memory of Dumbledore saying Harry contained a horcrux inside him would be 100% believed. I don't think only giving the memory of the silver doe would have been enough - Harry had to understand that where Snape's love for Lily came from, that he loved her from their childhoods and that it wasn't just a little crush he had developed on her in school. All those memories were necessary, IMO. As a reader, I wouldn't have believed it if the silver doe was the only memory given to prove Snape's love for Lily. We the readers and Harry himself had to be smacked over the head with it.

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Did Snape anticipate that this would change Harry's views and feelings of him? I don't think it was a matter he gave much thought, as his own expectation at this point would have been that Harry would shortly join him in death. But, having made these formerly intolerable revelations to Harry, I see no evidence he would "hate" Harry's reaction of gratitude and respect. He was often unpleasant to Harry, yes. As was Harry to him. We do not have any instance in which Harry expressed appreciation of Snape from which to judge that Snape would reject it or be hurt by it, only the one instance of a backhanded compliment which Snape accepted.
I agree Snape probably didn't give Harry's reaction much thought - but he was dying. If the circumstances had been different and Snape knew he would live a long life after giving Harry the information he needed to complete his mission and sacrifice himself I think Snape would have presented things in a much different light.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
IMO if Snape had been alive, he wouldn't have given Harry all those memories. He would probably have told him a watered down story of how he liked Lily, mentioned the sword and patronus and had Dumbledore and perhaps the other portraits back him up.
I agree, maybe not watered down, though, maybe just framed differently.

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Originally Posted by ignisia
What really surprises me is the inclusion of the memory in which Snape is crying over Lily's letter. This is the same person who made that speech about "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves." It strikes me as incredibly significant that Snape was willing to show such emotion, especially since he had no idea Harry knew of the letter.
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Actually, I think that was put there for the benefit of the readers. As for his little speech, I think he was referencing himself as well when he said that.
I don't think Snape wore his heart on his sleeve in any capacity. I think he was a master at hiding his emotions and that might have been a contributing factor in Lily's attraction to James who might have emoted more or been more emotionally available or vulnerable (But that's a topic for the James thread). Including that memory and giving it to Harry proved that Snape's love for Lily had endured the 16 years since her death, that he still loved her and that his motives haven't ever changed.


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  #243  
Old January 23rd, 2012, 2:34 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Actually, I think that was put there for the benefit of the readers. As for his little speech, I think he was referencing himself as well when he said that.
Within the world of the series, the memory is there because Snape gave it to Harry. Yes, it shows us something (as, for that matter, do they all!) but they are also the memories Snape gave to Harry.

If convincing Harry was Snape's number sole aim, I am not sure why he would include a memory of himself complaining to Albus about Harry, either. Or the two memories of himself arguing with Petunia (surely he had some wholly happy/positive memories of his childhood friendship with Lily, like, say, the memory in which they sneaked into Tuney's room together to read her mail from Albus?).

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
As a reader, I wouldn't have believed it if the silver doe was the only memory given to prove Snape's love for Lily. We the readers and Harry himself had to be smacked over the head with it.
But according to you, it was not Snape's purpose to prove he loved Lily. It was Snape's purpose to be a credible messenger of Dumbledore's final instruction to Harry. The significance of the Doe to that purpose is to prove it was Snape who gave Harry the Sword. The memory of Albus ordering Snape to kill him, of Albus telling him Harry must die, of Snape discussing with Phineas and Albus' portraits where Harry is, and leaving the office with the sword, and a (not shown, but clearly extant) memory of Snape casting his Patronus and guiding Harry to the Sword, would serve as well.

I agree with you, that all the memories were needed to convey convincingly the truth, and depth, of Snape's love for Lily. This is why I conclude that demonstrating same was one of Snape's purposes in showing them.

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I was thinking over this a little, and from what I've noticed, Snape's primary method is to give instructions, ask the students to perform those instructions, and then observe and correct any errors. With this in mind, I imagine Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff classes to follow that same method. Sure, some Hufflepuffs might mess up now and again, but unless Luna decides to make Nargle repellent, I think the Ravenclaws would in general please Snape (or, at least, earn an approving nod from him ).
I agree. Ernie MacMillan (Hufflepuff prefect, in HBP) seemed pleased enough with Snape as a NEWT DADA teacher, and expressed no surprise.


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Last edited by arithmancer; January 23rd, 2012 at 2:41 am.
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  #244  
Old January 23rd, 2012, 9:22 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I agree, maybe not watered down, though, maybe just framed differently.
I'd say he would have probably passed it off as being friends with Lily and not said anything about falling for her and losing her to James.

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I don't think Snape wore his heart on his sleeve in any capacity. I think he was a master at hiding his emotions and that might have been a contributing factor in Lily's attraction to James who might have emoted more or been more emotionally available or vulnerable (But that's a topic for the James thread). Including that memory and giving it to Harry proved that Snape's love for Lily had endured the 16 years since her death, that he still loved her and that his motives haven't ever changed.
IMO Snape made a lot of effort to appear that way. Inside, I think he was quite a sensitive person. It makes his ability at Occlumency all the more impressive because he had to keep control of powerful emotions.

I can relate because I'm the same. I'm guarded with my emotions in public but its a different matter when I'm alone. I hate the fact that I can be so sensitive and therefore that line from Snape made perfect sense for me and I think Snape felt the same way.

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Originally Posted by arithmancer
Within the world of the series, the memory is there because Snape gave it to Harry. Yes, it shows us something (as, for that matter, do they all!) but they are also the memories Snape gave to Harry.

If convincing Harry was Snape's number sole aim, I am not sure why he would include a memory of himself complaining to Albus about Harry, either. Or the two memories of himself arguing with Petunia (surely he had some wholly happy/positive memories of his childhood friendship with Lily, like, say, the memory in which they sneaked into Tuney's room together to read her mail from Albus?).
The reason I say this is because the memories Snape gave to Harry seemed like pages from his personal diary rather than the diary itself. Snape was bleeding out when he gave Harry those memories, it doesn't make sense to me that he'd waste energy picking and choosing.

If this was real, I think Harry would have received a lot more memories from Snape. As it turns out, Jo had limited words to tell everyone the story of Snape, so we see only the most important ones.

My point is that Harry probably would have seen that memory anyway but not because Snape wanted Harry to see just how much he loved Lily.


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Old January 23rd, 2012, 6:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
But according to you, it was not Snape's purpose to prove he loved Lily. It was Snape's purpose to be a credible messenger of Dumbledore's final instruction to Harry. The significance of the Doe to that purpose is to prove it was Snape who gave Harry the Sword. The memory of Albus ordering Snape to kill him, of Albus telling him Harry must die, of Snape discussing with Phineas and Albus' portraits where Harry is, and leaving the office with the sword, and a (not shown, but clearly extant) memory of Snape casting his Patronus and guiding Harry to the Sword, would serve as well.
No, it's not Snape purpose to prove he loved Lily, but by showing Harry in his dying moments that he had love Lily his entire life and that his feelings never changed after her death he was effectively able to gain Harry's trust so that by the time he got to the harry-is-a-horcrux memory Harry would know Snape was telling the truth. The whole being in love with Lily thing came out, I think, because Snape was dying and had nothing to lose by giving Harry that information. In fact it would strengthen Harry's belief even more than if Snape had given him a watered down version while expecting to live through the war.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
IMO Snape made a lot of effort to appear that way. Inside, I think he was quite a sensitive person. It makes his ability at Occlumency all the more impressive because he had to keep control of powerful emotions.
I always thought his ability at Occlumency stemmed from his natural secretive, introverted nature that, for me, extends to how he expresses himself. I do agree that I think he had powerful emotions but I also think he didn't have a lot of experience expressing them in effective ways which tends to be why he flies off the handle or loses control of his temper on occassion, why he's always hissing through his teeth at Harry and why he always seems angry. I think he bottles his emotions up.

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I can relate because I'm the same. I'm guarded with my emotions in public but its a different matter when I'm alone. I hate the fact that I can be so sensitive and therefore that line from Snape made perfect sense for me and I think Snape felt the same way.
I think Snape would have been guarded in public and in private. Maybe not when he was totally alone but I don't think he was all that open even with Lily. I don't think it's ever mentioned in canon if he actually expressed his love for Lily to her, presented his heart to her and waited to see if she would take it. I think he didn't have the courage when he was younger (4th-5th year), lost all hope of a reconcilliation his 6th year and by 7th year became even more disheartened when she began going out with James. Snape, to me, seemed like the kind of guy to only put himself out there (emotionally) if he was certain the outcome would be positive for himself.

The only canon evidence we have of his truly becoming emotional (as in expressing loving feelings) is with Dumbledore when he begs him to save Lily and when he discovers she has been killed. I think she died not knowing Snape's true feelings for her (though I don't think by that time it would have made a difference to her, she was already in love, married and had a baby) All other examples seem to be of Snape expressing angry, resentful emotions.


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Last edited by Goddess_Clio; January 24th, 2012 at 5:47 pm.
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  #246  
Old January 23rd, 2012, 7:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post

I always thought his ability at Occlumency stemmed from his natural secretive, introverted nature that, for me, extends to how he expresses himself. I do agree that I think he had powerful emotions but I also think he didn't have a lot of experience expressing them in effective ways which tends to be why he flies off the handle or loses control of his temper on occassion, why he's always hissing through his teeth at Harry and why he always seems angry. I think he bottles his emotions up.
His ability to present emotions would not matter because Voldemort was not judging him based on outward behaviour. Legilimency would pick up on those bottled emotions and feelings.

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I think Snape would have been guarded in public and in private. Maybe not when he was totally alone but I don't think he was all that open even with Lily. I don't think it's ever mentioned in canon if he actually expressed his love for Lily to her, presented his heart to her and waited to see if she would take it. I think he didn't have the courage when he was younger (4th-5th year), lost all hope of a reconcilliation his 6th year and by 7th year became even more disheartened when she began going out with James. Snape, to me, seemed like the kind of guy to only put himself out there (emotionally) if he was certain the outcome would be positive for himself.
You've practically described me with this and the previous para. By private, I meant totally alone. I agree that Snape wouldn't have been completely open with Lily but IMO she would have known a great deal more about him than others.

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The only canon evidence we have of his truly becoming emotional (as in expressing loving feelings) is with Dumbledore when he begs him to save Lily and when he discovers she has been killed. I think she died not knowing Snape's true feelings for her (though I don't think by that time it would have made a difference to her, she was already in love, married and had a baby) All other examples seem to be of Snape expressing angry, resentful emotions.
We also see him crying in Sirius' room. Except for a couple of instances, we never really see Snape get angry. Snape has always seemed to be in control in public.


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Old January 23rd, 2012, 8:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
His ability to present emotions would not matter because Voldemort was not judging him based on outward behaviour. Legilimency would pick up on those bottled emotions and feelings.
Mmm... I don't know about that. Legillimens to me seems more like looking through someone's picture album or home movies rather than reading their thoughts about the subject in question - like a pensieve without the bowl or the syrupy memories. I mean, Harry didn't know the thoughts going through Snape's head when James hoisted him into the air in SWM - there wasn't a voice over in the memory saying "Man, I hate this guy! My own spell being used against me -- I never should have told Mulciber how to do it, I knew he couldn't keep a secret! I'm so going to repay Potter for this!" In this respect, I don't think Legilimency would 'pick up' on bottled emotions.

As far as Snape's ability at Occlumens, because he was already secretive or introverted with his emotions I think it was an easier transition to make for him to become secretive with his memories or thoughts. It might have been a more natural transition than for someone who is much more expressive of their thoughts and feeling - they might find it more difficult to shield them from others because they are already so used to expressing them.

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You've practically described me with this and the previous para. By private, I meant totally alone. I agree that Snape wouldn't have been completely open with Lily but IMO she would have known a great deal more about him than others.
I agree, but I think part of the credit has to go to her own intuition and her close friendship with Snape and knowing his personality and the way his mind works.

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We also see him crying in Sirius' room. Except for a couple of instances, we never really see Snape get angry. Snape has always seemed to be in control in public.
But when he does get angry it seems like he totally loses control, like he's a shaken bottle of coke - when it's opened it sprays everywhere and there's no stopping it.


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  #248  
Old January 23rd, 2012, 9:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
Mmm... I don't know about that. Legillimens to me seems more like looking through someone's picture album or home movies rather than reading their thoughts about the subject in question - like a pensieve without the bowl or the syrupy memories. I mean, Harry didn't know the thoughts going through Snape's head when James hoisted him into the air in SWM - there wasn't a voice over in the memory saying "Man, I hate this guy! My own spell being used against me -- I never should have told Mulciber how to do it, I knew he couldn't keep a secret! I'm so going to repay Potter for this!" In this respect, I don't think Legilimency would 'pick up' on bottled emotions.
Legilimency seemed to work by detecting emotions though. Strong emotions made you more susceptible to being broken into.

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As far as Snape's ability at Occlumens, because he was already secretive or introverted with his emotions I think it was an easier transition to make for him to become secretive with his memories or thoughts. It might have been a more natural transition than for someone who is much more expressive of their thoughts and feeling - they might find it more difficult to shield them from others because they are already so used to expressing them.
Perhaps. On the one hand, keeping control off your emotions all the time might help you keep control of it mentally as well. On the other hand, expressive people tend to "burn out" a lot of those things as well so you hold on to less emotions. Its the difference between getting angry and letting the other person have it versus keeping it bottled inside. I'm not sure which would be a better for Occlumency.

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But when he does get angry it seems like he totally loses control, like he's a shaken bottle of coke - when it's opened it sprays everywhere and there's no stopping it.
Exactly what happens when you keep it all inside without an outlet. Builds up like a volcano and when something ends up triggering it, everything explodes out.


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  #249  
Old January 24th, 2012, 12:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Legilimency seemed to work by detecting emotions though. Strong emotions made you more susceptible to being broken into.
Yes, emotions are what the Legilimens picks up on to detect a lie, and so controlling emotions is important in Occlumency. During Occlumency lessons, Snape often told Harry to control his emotions.

"I told you to empty yourself of emotions!" (Snape, OotP, Occlumency)

Snape also explains to Harry:

"Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection."
(OotP, Occlumency)

And he also mentions controlling emotions in the "fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves" speech. So it does seem that the control of one's emotions is vital to being a successful Occlumens.

As I see it Snape is completely driven by emotion, and that it was his enduring love for Lily that was his motivation from the moment her life was threatened. We are shown just how strong his emotions are regarding Lily, on the wind hilltop; in Dumbledore's office after her death; and when he is crying over the letter. These are the emotions he was keeping in check during his dealings with Voldemort, and to me is what makes his skill as an Occlumens the more remarkable.



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  #250  
Old January 24th, 2012, 4:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Legilimency seemed to work by detecting emotions though. Strong emotions made you more susceptible to being broken into.
I may move this to the Little Questions thread but my question about how legilimens actually works still stands. If Legillimens works by detecting emotions and yet all you 'see' when looking into someone's mind is something akin to a video reel with no voice over... I think I will move this to the other thread...

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
As I see it Snape is completely driven by emotion, and that it was his enduring love for Lily that was his motivation from the moment her life was threatened. We are shown just how strong his emotions are regarding Lily, on the wind hilltop; in Dumbledore's office after her death; and when he is crying over the letter. These are the emotions he was keeping in check during his dealings with Voldemort, and to me is what makes his skill as an Occlumens the more remarkable.
I agree that Snape is driven by emotion, but he is also obviously very skilled at publicly supressing those emotions and became, apparently, so skilled an Occlumens that Voldemort didn't even know he was practicing occlumens against him. I think the few moments we see of Snape expressing those strong emotions came at moments of personal devastation (discovering his love is in danger, discovering she has died, finding the letter written in Lily's hand and containing Lily's love) and moments of personal weakness (him succumbing to his anger with Harry).

The natural ability at occlumency seemed to come to Snape because of his ability to so effectively bottle up those emotions whereas someone like Harry (and by extension probably both his parents) who wears his heart on his sleeve had a lot of trouble with Occlumency and never did seem to get the hang of it (until, conveniently, it served the drama of the story, but I digress)


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Old January 24th, 2012, 5:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Actually the Little Questions thread isn't suitable for those long discussions. This thread might be interesting Harry's weakness against Legilimency. Feel free to expand on the topic of how it all works there


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  #252  
Old January 31st, 2012, 1:55 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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It was Lily's choice to refuse to step aside.
Agreed. Lily made that choice, and is part of the reason Harry survived.

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Snape did something evil in passing on the prophecy.
He did something evil in joining the DEs and passing on the prophecy. Agreed.

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He did something selfish in hoping for Lily to be spared and lose her family.
Snape could not ask Voldemort to spare Harry - Voldemort would have killed him. He could not have come up with an excuse to spare James. He could however tell Voldemort he was interested in Lily, and perhaps she would be spared, and he did so, knowing even that put his life at risk. Then he went to Dumbledore, and DD could have killed him on sight. I don't think Snape wanted her family dead - he wasn't thinking of them at all. Had he been thinking, he would have realized Lily could not live without them. Dumbledore brought him to his senses.

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If Snape had gotten what he wished for, Lily would have stepped aside, watched her family die, and flounced off into the comforting arms of a Death Eater.
Snape wasn't a DE at this point. He was a member of the Order and a spy for Dumbledore. And once DD brought him to his senses, he agreed all three should be spared - it wasn't just about Lily.

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If we're going to give Snape credit for that, we should also give Voldemort credit for Harry's survival - he was the one who offered Lily the chance to step aside. If he'd just killed her without saying anything, her sacrifice wouldn't have saved Harry, either. If Snape gets credit under those terms, then so does Voldemort.
It's true - if Voldemort had ignored Snape's request and simply AK'd her, then they would all be dead. Voldemort made a huge mistake in listening to Snape (in Voldemort's mind).

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I think, in that situation, Dumbledore might have had Snape taken to Azkaban. He would know that it would be downright dangerous to leave an unrepentant DE at large.
If Snape were an "unrepentant DE" he would not have stayed at Hogwarts to protect Harry, I think. DD had already testified for him in court, and Snape was free to go. I don't think Snape truly wanted to be a teacher.

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Snape didn't care about Lily's feelings - protecting Harry was about making Snape feel better - making him feel as if he was making amends to Lily. If Lily's feelings had come into it, he wouldn't have bullied her son.
I think Snape's treatment of Harry said less about Snape's feelings about Harry's mother and more about his feelings towards Harry's father. Some wounds run too deep. Was Snape perfect? No. Did he have deep flaws? Yes. Did he save Harry? Yes - on more than one occasion.


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  #253  
Old January 31st, 2012, 2:38 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

You know, I don't quite think it's accurate to say Snape actively wanted Harry dead. I think the hilltop conversation, which I believe exists to establish just how Snape came to work for DD and what Snape's moral makeup at 21 was, establishes for us very clearly that Snape does not care what happens to Harry as long as Lily lives. Still bad, certainly, but more of an accurate way of putting his feelings during that period.

Additionally, while JKR quite rightly uses DD to call Snape out on this, she does not draw a parallel between Snape and Voldemort. In fact, I believe that throughout much of DH, Snape and many other characters (including Regulus, the Malfoys, Harry, Kreacher, Xeno, and Harry's friends in the Order) are portrayed as nothing akin to Voldemort because they love.


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  #254  
Old January 31st, 2012, 3:45 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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You know, I don't quite think it's accurate to say Snape actively wanted Harry dead.
I don't think it's accurate to say that Snape ever actively wanted Harry dead. That is certainly not true of Snape the reformed DE, and I still think it's a stretch to claim that of Snape even at a more callous stage of his life, when he appeared indifferent to Harry's fate back in 1981 (which Dumbledore challenged him on).

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I think the hilltop conversation, which I believe exists to establish just how Snape came to work for DD and what Snape's moral makeup at 21 was, establishes for us very clearly that Snape does not care what happens to Harry as long as Lily lives. Still bad, certainly, but more of an accurate way of putting his feelings during that period.
Oh yes, it was bad. No question, IMO. Snape at one of his lowest moral points. However, it still doesn't make him as bad as Voldemort. Voldemort remains an unrepentant psychopath for the duration of the series! Snape is very different. A flawed man who deliberately turned his back on his dark past, and stuck to that. With enormous courage, as generously acknowledged by Harry.

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Additionally, while JKR quite rightly uses DD to call Snape out on this, she does not draw a parallel between Snape and Voldemort.
I agree. And it's interesting that just as she uses Dumbledore to call out Snape for his apparent callous disregard for the lives of James and Harry, she pretty much does a reverse mirroring in The Prince's Tale, when it's Snape's turn to be appalled at Dumbledore for having raised Harry like a pig for slaughter! OK, we know there was more to it than that (I think that Dumbledore really did love Harry and, moreoever, believed he would survive) but, even so ... it jolts the reader as much as it obviously does Snape, and the reader shares Snape's reaction 100% in that moment!

Well, I did, anyway. I also thought it was an example of the author showing us how much Snape had grown morally since his dark days as a DE. He may not have liked Harry, but that didn't mean he wanted the boy dead! And not just for Lily's sake, either. I don't think Snape wanted any Hogwarts pupil to die because of Voldemort's murderous intentions.

I also think he tries to protect the pupils (as he promised Dumbledore), as far as he is able, from the worst excesses of the Carrows. It sounds like this wasn't particularly easy: we read how Neville, and others, suffered at the hands of the Carrows. But if Snape had tried to stop the Carrows' cruelty, how would Voldemort have reacted? He'd have smelt a rat! At least Snape succeeded in shielding the 'alternative Trio' -- Ginny, Neville and Luna -- from the Carrows, by sending them on a faux-detention with Hagrid in the Forest. It seems so obvious that I wonder that Voldemort and the Carrows didn't see straight through it, but then again, the Forest wasn't all that safe. But of course the kids had Hagrid with them! Anyway, I'm sure Snape found a way to make this so-called punishment sound highly plausible. He was clever, eloquent and convincing, after all.


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  #255  
Old January 31st, 2012, 6:14 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

The forest wasn't safe for Hagrid after HBP. After Aragog's death, the spiders were in revolt and would attack anyone including Hagrid. Also, I think Centaurs were still angry with Hagrid. They did have Grawp though.


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  #256  
Old January 31st, 2012, 6:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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The forest wasn't safe for Hagrid after HBP. After Aragog's death, the spiders were in revolt and would attack anyone including Hagrid. Also, I think Centaurs were still angry with Hagrid. They did have Grawp though.
Well, it was either that or hand Ginny, Luna and Neville over to the tender mercies of the Carrows!

Like I said: Snape had no choice. He had to be seen to be punishing the girlfriend and close friends of The Boy On The Run. Voldemort would have been right on his case about that, IMO, and the Carrows would have gleefully tattled to Voldemort if Snape had been perceived to be weak in any way.

At least Snape could ensure that Ginny and Co were with Hagrid.


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  #257  
Old January 31st, 2012, 6:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Well, it was either that or hand Ginny, Luna and Neville over to the tender mercies of the Carrows!

Like I said: Snape had no choice. He had to be seen to be punishing the girlfriend and close friends of The Boy On The Run. Voldemort would have been right on his case about that, IMO, and the Carrows would have gleefully tattled to Voldemort if Snape had been perceived to be weak in any way.

As Snape very well knew, they had Hagrid.
Oh, I know. I didn't mean to say Snape was wrong to send them to the forest, just that it wouldn't have been hard to convince the Carrows it was a worthy punishment.


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  #258  
Old January 31st, 2012, 6:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Oh, I know. I didn't mean to say Snape was wrong to send them to the forest, just that it wouldn't have been hard to convince the Carrows it was a worthy punishment.
I see what you mean.

First time I read that -- and it was obvious it was such a huge great clue about Snape's true motivations! -- I had forgotten the Forest wasn't that safe, so I did wonder how on earth Snape managed to justify such a 'soft' move.


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  #259  
Old January 31st, 2012, 6:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath View Post
The forest wasn't safe for Hagrid after HBP. After Aragog's death, the spiders were in revolt and would attack anyone including Hagrid. Also, I think Centaurs were still angry with Hagrid. They did have Grawp though.
I believe that the forest was a big gamble... It contained risks that could create worse results while there was also a chance that it would be far more pleasant than the other option. Therefor, I can't really choose wether I see this as something Snape did out of good intentions or not. I don't think Snape knew that the spiders were in revolt, though. But I might be completely wrong.


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  #260  
Old January 31st, 2012, 6:55 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
There's no mention of Snape asking Voldemort to give Lily a choice. Snape asked Voldemort to let Lily live, not to give her a choice between herself and her son.
"Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"
DH, Prince's Tale.

Voldemort asked Lily to step aside, as requested by Snape, instead of AKing her . Asking the very question gave her a choice - "If you choose to step aside, i shall allow you to live."



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Where's the evidence that Snape risked his life in asking for Lily to be spared? Voldemort boasted of rewarding his followers, after all..
He was risking asking Voldemort to save the life of a mudblood, by admitting he "fancied her."


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