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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10



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  #221  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 12:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
Let me quote again: "...the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high..."
It doesn't necessarily imply losing the said battle, or am I reading it wrong? And I don't really see Severus being dragged into it - he made his own choice, remember?
I was just giving my interpretation. I felt if Harry wished to include others to extend the point, he would have. But to me he was just making a specific point relative to the idea that the four people he named all faced death in a similar way in that particular respect.

I don't know what you mean by losing the battle...? But Snape didn't walk into the shack, knowing that Voldemort would chose that moment to kill him, he went in response to Voldemort summoning him; whereas the others Harry mentioned knew death was imminent and didn't try to stop it.


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  #222  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 1:43 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

With all due respect, Marcus... *points to signature* the "didn't try to stop it" part doesn't really earn you house points in my book.

Seriously now, I merely wanted to point out that he, too, "walked into the arena with... head held high". Surely you don't believe Voldy would've backed down without at least attempting the "battle to the death" bit?

IMO, it's not that he died but rather that he was ready to die that matters. Professor Snape might be an arrogant old bat, but not nearly arrogant enough to be certain of his safety.


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  #223  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 2:00 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
That, and... "It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew - and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents - that there was all the difference in the world. "

Wouldn't he value the same thing in Snape?
Erm ... I don't actually think that Harry was thinking specifically of Snape at that precise point, was he? (Can somebody remind me where in the book that passage occurs? I can't actually remember. ) The text tells us that he was thinking explicitly of Dumbledore, and his parents, James and Lily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
IMO, it's not that he died but rather that he was ready to die that matters. Professor Snape might be an arrogant old bat, but not nearly arrogant enough to be certain of his safety.
Now that I agree with 100%.

The fact that in the last few moments of Snape's life, Voldemort was one step ahead of him in the game (because of that darned Elder Wand business ) does not detract -- for me -- from Snape's courage or steeliness in his very difficult role as spy.

Nobody here needs to persuade me that Harry recognised that courage in Snape too.


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  #224  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 2:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Erm ... I don't actually think that Harry was thinking specifically of Snape at that precise point, was he? (Can somebody remind me where in the book that passage occurs? I can't actually remember. ) The text tells us that he was thinking explicitly of Dumbledore, and his parents, James and Lily.
He was not thinking specifically of Snape at that moment, but this sentence could easily be applied to Snape too, and I think Harry would understand that later on, upon reflection.


  #225  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 2:14 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

That paragraph comes in the HBP, Pearl_Took. And Harry was not thinking about Snape, but his parents; the way they chose to fight instead of being made to fight against their will; least that's what I understood from that; I also think it applies to Snape, because he chose to do "Anything" and he chose to become spy and fight to the death if needed be. I think that applies to Snape as well.

EDIT :: Raelis has already answered.


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  #226  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 2:31 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
He was not thinking specifically of Snape at that moment, but this sentence could easily be applied to Snape too, and I think Harry would understand that later on, upon reflection.
It is a statement about death though - how those people faced it.. I don't see how Harry would ever figure that Snape walked into the arena to battle to the death - he had no idea death was on the agenda or he would not have gone because he had an important duty to fulfill first.

Snape was summoned, he tried to flee, he tried to fight, he tried to pull the casing off of his head, he yelled and then fell to the floor. I don't see him accepting of death the entire time - his purpose at that point was to try to live and get the message to Harry and he seemed to be trying to do that the entire time until he had no choice but to resign himself to the inevitable.

Snape's purpose was to avoid death always, so even in life he didn't look at anything as walking into any arena of death, imo. He looked at it as walking into risks and wiggling his way out of things with fast talking, noncomittal "ah's" and lies to Voldy - which is what he tried to do at the end as well.


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  #227  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 2:46 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Before I come down on you as usual... Did I mention I love your avatar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Snape was summoned, he tried to flee, he tried to fight, he tried to pull the casing off of his head, he yelled and then fell to the floor. I don't see him accepting of death the entire time - his purpose at that point was to try to live and get the message to Harry and he seemed to be trying to do that the entire time until he had no choice but to resign himself to the inevitable.
Oh, come on... What was he supposed to do to play the part for you? Rip open his robe and draw a target?

It's not "going to one's death" I'm talking about, it's "battle to the death". And Snape did fight right until the very end.

And I agree with Raelis: If that was indeed the way Harry felt, in retrospect he would've applied it to Snape as well.


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  #228  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 2:52 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
Before I come down on you as usual... Did I mention I love your avatar?



Oh, come on... What was he supposed to do to play the part for you? Rip open his robe and draw a target?

It's not "going to one's death" I'm talking about, it's "battle to the death". And Snape did fight right until the very end.

And I agree with Raelis: If that was indeed the way Harry felt, in retrospect he would've applied it to Snape as well.
Ah I see the confusion now. You were speaking about just the one bit of it. Actually, none of the four he named battled to the death - just the opposite actually, so that is why I was confused I suppose...


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  #229  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 2:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

To be fair, when he tried to flee in particular, that was not because he was running away from Voldemort as much as he had just realized that now was the time to deliver his message to Harry, having seen Nagini in her little hamster bubble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone
Oh, come on... What was he supposed to do to play the part for you? Rip open his robe and draw a target?


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  #230  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 3:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
Oh, come on... What was he supposed to do to play the part for you? Rip open his robe and draw a target?


Quote:
It's not "going to one's death" I'm talking about, it's "battle to the death". And Snape did fight right until the very end.
Yes, he did. And, just like Harry, I admire him for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
To be fair, when he tried to flee in particular, that was not because he was running away from Voldemort as much as he had just realized that now was the time to deliver his message to Harry, having seen Nagini in her little hamster bubble.
Exactly. He was not trying to flee because he suddenly got cold feet. Of course, he didn't want to die, but I'm sure by that time he had already accepted the fact that his task might demand that he gave his life for it. And he put up with tis fact. In that scene he was terrified that he'd die without passing the vital information to Harry upon which the survival of the wizarding world was fully dependent. Although I find it a bit strange that he did not even attempt to fight. Sure, he probably knew that Voldemort was unbeatable, and any attempts to delay the invetable would be vain. But I just think fighting would be a more realistic reaction, like an instinct. Aren't Slytherins supposed to care about self-preservation? Doesn't seem so, judging by the ultimate Slytherin Snape.


  #231  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 3:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
Ambitious in later years: yes or no? And why?
From Merriam-Webster Online:

ambition
1 a: an ardent desire for rank, fame, or power b: desire to achieve a particular end

Was Sev ambitious in later years? Yes, absolutely. He desired to achieve a particular end, and was willing to do whatever was necessary and give whatever it took to achieve it.

I don't think he possessed an ardent desire for rank, fame, or power, even though he achieved them in his lifetime. I wonder, was he the youngest Headmaster of Hogwarts ever?


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  #232  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 3:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

He did raise his wand, and that did appear (to me) to be more of an instinctive move, but I think he hesitated in hurling a hex at Voldemort because he was focused on the biggest thought on his mind at the moment: How am I going to get out of here? If he had cast hexes without forming a plan beforehand, he would be dead in two seconds.

Of course, there's not much in the scene to indicate this, but that, I believe, is the sort of thing Snape would probably be thinking about at the time.


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  #233  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 3:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Good question. I'd say...kind of. I think he always did want recognition, even if it was pretty much impossible, being a spy and all.
The extent of this desire for recognition that we see, does not seem to me to rise to the level of an "ardent desire for fame" (quoting from my definition, there! ) I'd class it more with a basic human need for recognition. I work for a large corporation, and from what I see, it is pretty much Management 101 that employees are more loyal, more satisfied, and better workers when they feel that someone, anyone, knows what they are working on and appreciates their results and their effort. I'm thinking of an example such as the Occlumency lesson in which Snape tells Harry it is not his job to learn what Voldemort is up to, and when Harry shoots back that that is Snape's job, Snape seems satisfied.

Considering especially that almost no one can know all the things Snape has done for Albus...I'd say Snape is satisfied with very moderate praise (unintended, even), here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
Let me quote again: "...the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high..."
It doesn't necessarily imply losing the said battle, or am I reading it wrong? And I don't really see Severus being dragged into it - he made his own choice, remember?
I'd say he was walking into that figurative arena every single time he met with Voldemort, from the moment he agreed to do "Anything" Albus asked on him on that windy hill at night, when Harry was sytill a baby. And it was absoultely "for" someone else - Lily, and later Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
IMO, it's not that he died but rather that he was ready to die that matters. Professor Snape might be an arrogant old bat, but not nearly arrogant enough to be certain of his safety.
On the contrary, I can think of several scenes which suggest Sev was truly afraid of Voldemort (not that he let that stop him). It seems to me he had a very realistic understanding of just how dangerous the ganme was that he played. His reaction to "Moody's" "Spots that never wash off", his unusual paleness when leaving to face Voldemort at the end of GoF, and his demand that Harry not refer to Voldemort by name in OotP, all suggest it to me rather strongly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Erm ... I don't actually think that Harry was thinking specifically of Snape at that precise point, was he? (Can somebody remind me where in the book that passage occurs? I can't actually remember. ) The text tells us that he was thinking explicitly of Dumbledore, and his parents, James and Lily.
I take this quote, anyway, to be an expression of a belief Harry has generally about the nature of courage. The quote is from HBP (when he talks to Albus in the Weasley's shed), so naturally Harry would never have applied it to Snape at the time he said it.

I think what Daggerstone was saying is that Harry would still have admired the choice described in the quote at the end of DH, and at that point would definitely have recognized its applicability to Severus (the "bravest man he ever knew").

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
It is a statement about death though - how those people faced it.. I don't see how Harry would ever figure that Snape walked into the arena to battle to the death - he had no idea death was on the agenda or he would not have gone because he had an important duty to fulfill first.
The quote does not apply merely to the last meeting Sev had with Voldemort, it applies to ANY meeting he would have had with Voldemort once he "returned". The battles (and there were many) would not have been fought with steel or fighting spells, though, they were fought with wits, cunning, and Occlumency. That the stakes were mortal is proven by how the last one of them ended.

Quote:
Snape's purpose was to avoid death always, so even in life he didn't look at anything as walking into any arena of death, imo. He looked at it as walking into risks and wiggling his way out of things with fast talking, noncomittal "ah's" and lies to Voldy - which is what he tried to do at the end as well.
Oddly enough, that is also the goal of a soldier in a battle, to avoid death. But in showing up for the battle in the first place, and following whatever plan his leaders communicate to him, he shows he's "ready" to die if he's not quick, tough, skilled, or lucky enough.

Personally I think Snape never had a lucky break ihn his life, and his death was an exception only in that Harry showed up right on cue.

EDIT: Errm. That was LONG. Blame yourselves, folks, for generating 2 interesting pages of discussion while I slept.


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Last edited by arithmancer; March 3rd, 2009 at 4:11 pm.
  #234  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 10:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignisia
having seen Nagini in her little hamster bubble.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius
The quote does not apply merely to the last meeting Sev had with Voldemort, it applies to ANY meeting he would have had with Voldemort once he "returned". The battles (and there were many) would not have been fought with steel or fighting spells, though, they were fought with wits, cunning, and Occlumency. That the stakes were mortal is proven by how the last one of them ended.
You express that so well!!!

I think that Snape certainly accepted that death was not just a possibility but an inevitability. He was prepared to do everything Dumbledore asked of him even though it became more and more dangerous. He returned to the graveyard knowing that he could be killed. He gave information to the Order knowing that the other Death Eaters would be watching him. He took the Unbreakable Vow knowing it could lead to his death, and then he killed Dumbledore knowing that the Order would then be gunning for him and continued to try to protect the students at Hogwarts and get Gryffindors sword to Harry without anyone finding out. Frankly I am staggered that he survived as long as he did and achieved as much as he did.

I think that when death came Severus embraced it. I don't think he was afraid of death - I think he was afraid of not achieving all that he needed to achieve but once he had given Harry the memories I think he could "go in peace" as it were.


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  #235  
Old March 4th, 2009, 12:13 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I think what Daggerstone was saying is that Harry would still have admired the choice described in the quote at the end of DH, and at that point would definitely have recognized its applicability to Severus (the "bravest man he ever knew").
I think he would have named many more people if that had been the case. At the time, imo, he was speaking of "difference", not bravery - I'm sure he thought Sirius was brave.

But reapplication of all lines is possible. Even the one you provided. Harry would remark that Dumbledore was probably the bravest man he knew when applicable, or Sirius or his parents, etc. So I guess if reuse is the point, yeah all lines might be reused in line with others when the particular topic applied to another.

Quote:
The quote does not apply merely to the last meeting Sev had with Voldemort, it applies to ANY meeting he would have had with Voldemort once he "returned". The battles (and there were many) would not have been fought with steel or fighting spells, though, they were fought with wits, cunning, and Occlumency. That the stakes were mortal is proven by how the last one of them ended.
Well the quote didn't apply to Snape at all, but if you mean to say you are applying it with the above understanding --- that is nice. But granted, everyone working for the good side knew that they might die when they went out on their assignments. Ask Arthur, Amelia Bones, Lupin, etc. Many died or had brushes with death because times were dangerous.

To be honest, I think it is brave as heck to be dragged into an arena and still put up a fight to the death - like Cedric and all of those who died in the final battle except Harry. In Roman times, prisoners were dragged in and faced ferocious animals with their heads high - so the point is a little bit moot to me in terms of bravery. Harry did not speak of bravery, he spoke of difference, so I just looked at it in terms of difficulty at the point of entrance, walking or being dragged in. I don't see how you get there affects the bravery shown in battle though - people can go on to be brave no matter how they arrive. Accordingly it may not be braver to walk in than be dragged in the circumstance where the one dragged would have walked in anyway. So the only distinction is to start speaking of cowards that are dragged against their will.

But foremost, I feel Harry was talking about those who would chose to stand up and face down the enemy on open terms, ready and willing to die. Snape doesn't fit into that category. Through the day he died he never openly faced Voldemort directly - even when he knew he would die and believed he would not be able to fulfill his duty, he said nothing to the end along those lines - he feigned loyalty the whole time. So I don't see Snape fitting into the scenario in that sense either. I suppose under the general terms under which you are interpreting the statement, it works, but it seems a little twisted to fit, imo.

Quote:
Oddly enough, that is also the goal of a soldier in a battle, to avoid death. But in showing up for the battle in the first place, and following whatever plan his leaders communicate to him, he shows he's "ready" to die if he's not quick, tough, skilled, or lucky enough.

Personally I think Snape never had a lucky break in his life, and his death was an exception only in that Harry showed up right on cue.
Well I think all of those fighting Voldemort and actually those fighting for Voldemort, were all aware that they could die at any time. Snape had to be exposed before he actually took on as great a risk as the goodsiders who came up against Voldemort and his DEs - whereas the others were good as dead for merely being seen at all, like Amelia Bones. People like Kingsley were in that same position though, feigning loyalty and risking exposure - he too would have to be exposed before he'd be killed. So I don't really think had it any different than some others in that respect.

Snape actually had a few lucky breaks to my memory - off hand, James saved his life as it was (lucky as it was his enemy who could have waved it off); Dumbledore heard him out on the hill (lucky cuz he was a DE); Voldemort accepted him back (Lucky because he claimed he was going to kill Snape), the one you mentioned and so on...so he wasn't quite the hard luck case, imo.


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  #236  
Old March 4th, 2009, 5:12 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

*takes a deep breath* OK, just read the last line carefully Marcus; I'd hate for you to feel offended, as you make such a great collocutor.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Snape had to be exposed before he actually took on as great a risk as the goodsiders who came up against Voldemort and his DEs
And the fact that both sides had their own reason for mistrusting him doesn't seem to come into the equation? In terms of walking around in public, he was as likely to get it from the good guys as he was from Vodly's shippers - let's not forget that not all the good guys were in inner circles of OOP, nor all the bad guys in inner circles of DE.

It was a war, yes. Everyone involved was in danger at some point (I loathe the term for personal reasons but yes, "collateral damage" comes to mind). But, unlike Snape, people you mentioned would return to their more-or-less normal lives once the actual skirmish was over. Were they brave? Were they in danger? Yes, I know they were; I actually sympathize with them more than I care to explain or corroborate.

But fact is, Severus was living his assignment. In psychological terms, his lack of... for lack of a better word, distraction from the actuality that is armed conflict would have been devastating! And he is going through with the plan, regardless, for... what, exactly? Protecting the son of his long-lost-love, whom he knows (Prof Snape is no fool) wouldn't spare him a second glance if they were ever to see/talk/whatever-they-do-in-afterlife again because it was only right he did so, and it was his fault he was in danger anyway?!

For Pete's sake, he didn't even like the boy!

So either we're missing something in terms of additional (later-day) motivation, or Professor Snape is a complete and utter wuss going about running errands for dead women in fear of spectral retribution... which I absolutely refuse to believe!

Ok, this was long and... somewhat belligerent, but every discussion of the subtler and long-terms effects of war on character just makes me want to...


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  #237  
Old March 4th, 2009, 6:26 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
*takes a deep breath* OK, just read the last line carefully Marcus; I'd hate for you to feel offended, as you make such a great collocutor.
I am rarely offended, even when it is intended. No worries.

Quote:
And the fact that both sides had their own reason for mistrusting him doesn't seem to come into the equation? In terms of walking around in public, he was as likely to get it from the good guys as he was from Vodly's shippers - let's not forget that not all the good guys were in inner circles of OOP, nor all the bad guys in inner circles of DE.
Well I feel that is overstating the issue in that no goodsider was going to attack Professor Snape while he was acting as such at Hogwarts under Dumbledore-Umbridge-Dumbledore. No Order member or Auror would either, while he was purportedly spying for them on the enemy. On the other side, Snape was considered an important spy for Voldemort and killing him (which I got the feeling Bella wished to do) was not going to make Voldemort a happy camper. He was the "key in" for Voldemort when it came to Dumbledore's plans - or so he believed.

Now after Dumbledore's death, if not before, Snape became Voldy's right hand man, so he was in a very chill position on the dark side. The goodsiders of course would attempt to capture him if they could catch him with proof of his crimes - but they had no proof. It was Harry's word against his when it came to the killing of Dumbledore. Goodsiders didn't go around killing people - they tried to capture them and prosecute.

Thus Snape's real danger was in goodsiders finding evidence against him (not likely) or Voldemort exposing him (or another DE definitively doing so) and killing him. So the goodsider v. badsider issue was not terribly grave for Snape, imo. Snape's true danger was unknown to him, imo and was based on Voldy coming to believe he was the master of the Elder Wand. In truth, that could have happened sooner than it did, so he got a break in as far as time was concerned. Of course it could have occurred much later too, so it is relative.

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It was a war, yes. Everyone involved was in danger at some point (I loathe the term for personal reasons but yes, "collateral damage" comes to mind). But, unlike Snape, people you mentioned would return to their more-or-less normal lives once the actual skirmish was over. Were they brave? Were they in danger? Yes, I know they were; I actually sympathize with them more than I care to explain or corroborate.
I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean Snape could not return to a normal life after the war because he died? Many people could not do that: Moody, Fred, Tonks, Lupin, Cedric, Colin, Lily, James, Sirius, Crabbe, just to name a few. Perhaps you mean something else by "skirmish" though...

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But fact is, Severus was living his assignment. In psychological terms, his lack of... for lack of a better word, distraction from the actuality that is armed conflict would have been devastating! And he is going through with the plan, regardless, for... what, exactly? Protecting the son of his long-lost-love, whom he knows (Prof Snape is no fool) wouldn't spare him a second glance if they were ever to see/talk/whatever-they-do-in-afterlife again because it was only right he did so, and it was his fault he was in danger anyway?!
Snape was not the only one living under these conditions. We know Kingsley was as well. However, there may have been others we don't know about since the 7 or 8 members of the good side presented did not represent all of the goodsiders. .

You indicate that Snape was going through with it to protect Harry for his reasons - but understand, others were going through with Dumbledore's plans and still others fighting Voldy in their own right for far less personal reasons. To give just one example, although there are many, Moody went through numerous trials and tribulations during Both Wars - only to be killed - and as far as we know, he was risking his life, constantly facing danger and indeed, gave his life, just because he felt it was the right thing to do.

In other words, everyone had their reasons, just like Snape - perhaps his were different, but I don't see that as any basis for granting Snape special consideration in any regard. JKR wasn't forthcoming with everyone's personal trauma (i.e., Moody's), but we cannot assume that means that they all had honky dory lives. We know Lupin and Sirius had struggles and troubles greater than Snape's to face - Harry as well - and there were likely many others. Not to discount Snape's troubles, just to remind that everyone has them and must deal with them.

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For Pete's sake, he didn't even like the boy!
People often bring this up. But my perspective is that the war was even harder on those who did like him - and those who loved him were really having traumatic thoughts about his safety and care. So I am never quite sure what message is being sent by this statement. I agree Snape was doing something he did not wish to do, but you know, a lot of people were, just not in the same way. Lupin sat quite dismal at having to spy on the werewolves for a year - a very personal and traumatic deal for him - and we have no idea what all of the assignments were these people underwent. No one complained or acted out in the way that Snape did, but I would opine that his over-reaction to his duty was not indicative of the actual hardship invovled. Lupin complained, but in a sentence, whereas Snape complained and acted out over his trauma throughout the entire series. But to me that just makes him a bigger whiner, not more impacted by his duty.

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So either we're missing something in terms of additional (later-day) motivation, or Professor Snape is a complete and utter wuss going about running errands for dead women in fear of spectral retribution... which I absolutely refuse to believe!

Ok, this was long and... somewhat belligerent, but every discussion of the subtler and long-terms effects of war on character just makes me want to...
Well I don't really know what you mean. Snape said he was doing it all for her. But I figure that changed when he found that he was to assist in sending Harry to his death - that is not why Lily sacrificed her life. So it would seem that he too wished to bring down the dark lord. But I think that had been his intent since Voldy returned in GoF - after all, Voldy killed Lily.


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Old March 4th, 2009, 6:48 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Now after Dumbledore's death, if not before, Snape became Voldy's right hand man, so he was in a very chill position on the dark side.
*thinks it was at the time of "Unbreakable Vow" but is not sure so will keep her mouth shut*

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Thus Snape's real danger was in goodsiders finding evidence against him (not likely) or Voldemort exposing him (or another DE definitively doing so) and killing him.
Ah... But that's for us readers to know and Severus to contemplate.

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I am not sure what you mean... Perhaps you mean something else by "skirmish" though...
I used the word "skirmish" on purpose, to differentiate between the war as a whole and isolated battles. And Snape, as we know him from the books, isn't exactly a social butterfly.

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However, there may have been others we don't know about since the 7 or 8 members of the good side presented did not represent all of the goodsiders.
Ok, if we go into the uncharted territory we might meet all sorts of XXXXX-classified creatures and I'm no Gryffindor. On the subject of unsung heros, I rest my case.

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I don't see that as any basis for granting Snape special consideration in any regard.
*facepalms* I'm trying to get you to grant him default consideration other OOP members tend to get.

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....the war was even harder on those who did like him - and those who loved him were really having traumatic thoughts about his safety and care.***Lupin sat quite dismal at having to spy on the werewolves for a year - a very personal and traumatic deal for him
To put it bluntly, they knew what they were fighting for. Those were their current, personally rewarding loyalties. As for Lupin, I totally agree *hats off*, but he's already a fan-decorated war hero so I see no point in arguing it.

And before you ask: yes, I'm ready to repeat that in Slytherin common room.

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Lupin complained, but in a sentence, whereas Snape complained and acted out over his trauma throughout the entire series.
Perhaps he's complain more, given more page space you know...

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But I figure that changed when he found that he was to assist in sending Harry to his death - that is not why Lily sacrificed her life. So it would seem that he too wished to bring down the dark lord. But I think that had been his intent since Voldy returned in GoF - after all, Voldy killed Lily.

THANK YOU!


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Old March 4th, 2009, 7:21 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

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Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
I used the word "skirmish" on purpose, to differentiate between the war as a whole and isolated battles. And Snape, as we know him from the books, isn't exactly a social butterfly.
Mental skirmishes?

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*facepalms* I'm trying to get you to grant him default consideration other OOP members tend to get.
Ahhhhh. Well that will never happen. I respect the fact that many feel he deserves *extra added* consideration, and so of course I respect the fact that you feel he merits similar consideration at least. However, I cannot do so for the simple reason that while he was on the good side, he bullied children, mercilessly and cruelly (all of the children, except Slytherins in general). I am thus prohibited from granting Snape consideration commisserate with the other OOP members - none of whom likewise bullied children.

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To put it bluntly, they knew what they were fighting for. Those were their current, personally rewarding loyalties.
I would respectfully disagree. I do not think that Arthur, Molly or the kids considered Fred's death personally rewarding (and I don't think you do either) - but my point is that is what these people had to face when they fought for the good side. It wasn't all thoughts of "I must do this because it is the right thing to do" although that was a part of it. But on a daily basis, they had to face the deaths of their loved ones, friends and family - and like Snape, they also faced death themselves. Snape knew what he was fighting for as much as they did - it was the underlying rationale that might have differed in some respects. However, they all wanted Voldy dead for one reason or another.

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THANK YOU!
For my opinion? . Well I have always thought that, although many disagree.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; March 4th, 2009 at 7:23 am.
  #240  
Old March 4th, 2009, 7:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Mental skirmishes?
Nah. What I meant is, after individual battles were over, others returned to their loved ones. Snape returned to report to Dumbledore. (...and don't you dare pulling the slash fanfic stunt on me! )

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However, I cannot do so for the simple reason that while he was on the good side, he bullied children, mercilessly and cruelly (all of the children, except Slytherins in general).
Do we really know that he bullied all children? And was it really "mercilessly and cruelly" (unless he was doing Cruciatuses I was unaware of)?

I had a teacher quite like Snape: she used to compare us to cavemen if we messed up on our assignments, even went to the point where she actually (I kid you not!) chased a boy down the corridors with the teacher's book for disrupting the lecture on purpose. You were as likely to get an F one class and A at another, if it truly reflected your knowledge.... Squashed our self-confidence like a bug, but did wonders on the motivational front.

Almost two decades later, we can all quote Oratio in Catilinam Prima in Senatu Habita and she's always present at the reunions by the students' invitation (she wasn't a... what's it called? homeroom teacher?).

So I guess it all depends on the students, and their susceptibility to harshness. *shrugs*

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I do not think that Arthur, Molly or the kids considered Fred's death personally rewarding (and I don't think you do either)
That was completely not my meaning. By "personally rewarding loyalty" I meant that they were fighting (loyalty) for their loved ones (personally) and their endeavours were likely to be rewarded by prolonged safety of the said loved ones (rewarding).

Is my English really that bad?

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For my opinion?
Yes. As so happens, I tend to value opinions of intelligent individuals. *smirks*


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