Dumbledore's Plan for Muggles

[ID824]

Dumbledore and Grindelwald had a plan for wizards to rise up and take their rightful place in the world. Dumbledore stopped before it went too far because he saw that what they were planning just wasn't right because they would be taking away the rights of muggles and replacing them with their own.

Do you think it would ever be possible for the wizarding community to come out of secrecy and live side by side with muggles? How would you, as a witch or wizard, live next door to people who came to you for every little problem or broken thing in their house that needed a quick "reparo" spell? Could you be like the wizard from The Hopping Pot story in Beedle the Bard?

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by ID824

Dumbledore and Grindelwald had a plan for wizards to rise up and take their rightful place in the world. Dumbledore stopped before it went too far because he saw that what they were planning just wasn't right because they would be taking away the rights of muggles and replacing them with their own.

Actually, Dumbledore did not stop it. Ariana's death stopped it. In fact, Ariana died partly because Dumbledore would not listen to reason (in the form of Aberforth).

Ariana's death brought Dumbledore to his senses. Also, Grindelwald fled the country, so Dumbledore was no longer under Grindelwald's influence. It was in reparation for Ariana's death that Dumbledore became a supporter of the rights of Muggles.

Originally Posted by ID824

Do you think it would ever be possible for the wizarding community to come out of secrecy and live side by side with muggles? How would you, as a witch or wizard, live next door to people who came to you for every little problem or broken thing in their house that needed a quick "reparo" spell? Could you be like the wizard from The Hopping Pot story in Beedle the Bard?

In my opinion, the Wizarding community went into hiding because the only other option at that time would have been to band together and commit genocide against (or at least assert Wizarding dominance over) the Muggle community - which had been bent for many centuries on committing genocide against the Wizarding community. Basically, I think, the Wizarding community opted for a virtuous resolution rather than a retributive resolution. And not everybody in the Wizarding community agreed... hence the rise of Grindelwald on the continent, followed by the rise of Voldemort in Britain.

But to your question... do I think Wizards and Muggles could ever live side-by-side? I don't think so. Even though Muggles have seemingly given up their interest in eradicating the Wizarding community (and would provide only minor annoyances to their Wizard neighbors by trying to get magical solutions to everyday problems), I think that Muggles still potentially pose a huge threat to the Wizarding community. Imagine what Muggle scientists might do if they suddenly had a large pool of Wizards at their disposal. I think it's highly possible that they would want to tap in to Wizarding DNA and find ways to manipulate Wizarding "superpowers" - maybe even use Wizarding powers in bio-weapons. (I am speaking mainly of Muggles who do not have relatives in the Wizarding community. Muggle families with Wizarding children have tended to do a very good job of protecting Wizarding secrecy.)

So yeah, I think it's in the Wizarding community's best interest to remain in hiding... and I applaud the Statute of Secrecy for attempting to find a peaceful solution to the historical "Muggle problem" and in the various Ministries' efforts to keep Muggles safe from rogue Wizards.

[wolfbrother]

Yes.

While I don't think it was a good idea to remove the rights of the muggles and install the wizards as a superior group, I don't think it was fair that wizards were forced underground. The whole deal with Ariana happened because muggles were unaware of magic and the necessity of keeping magic secret. Aberforth mentions how the Ministry would have considered Ariana a threat to the Statute. So from Dumbledore's point of view, he had a vested interest in overthrowing that Statute.

I do think it is possible for wizards and muggles to live side by side eventually. Magic in Harry Potter seems to something that can be studied and understood. IMO muggle and wizard scientists could study and work together to advance, augment and mix technologies. We could have magical objects that could be used by muggles, muggle access to healing, fast transportation etc. The wizards don't seem to have television sets, video cameras, mobile phones etc which I think would add some value to their lives.

As for muggles always wanting some kind of wizarding help, I smell a business opportunity for the wizards.

[Hes]

We have two threads about The Greater Good here and here. Please discuss Dumbledore´s motivations and everything about the book events there. Also... The end of the Statute of Secrecy for canon related discussion.

This thread should be about ID824´s question what you would do if the Statute of Secrecy was lifted, only.

[WelkinCooper]

Originally Posted by ID824

Do you think it would ever be possible for the wizarding community to come out of secrecy and live side by side with muggles? How would you, as a witch or wizard, live next door to people who came to you for every little problem or broken thing in their house that needed a quick "reparo" spell? Could you be like the wizard from The Hopping Pot story in Beedle the Bard?

I don't know. Might depend on the culture at the time. Maybe in the distant future. I think non-magical professionals like doctors, lawyers, etc. already have the problem you're describing, with the neighbors always wanting free medical or legal advice, etcetera. That wouldn't be that hard to deal with probably. But government interest in your powers would be. I can see the Muggle government putting a lot of pressure on you to do things you might not want to do. They do it to their own citizens now in some cases. If you were magical it could be a lot worse.

I'd stay under wraps myself. I don't trust the government.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by ID824

Do you think it would ever be possible for the wizarding community to come out of secrecy and live side by side with muggles?

The quick answer so as to align with Hes's request: no.

How would you, as a witch or wizard, live next door to people who came to you for every little problem or broken thing in their house that needed a quick "reparo" spell? Could you be like the wizard from The Hopping Pot story in Beedle the Bard?

To be honest, I don't think I would mind for a while if my neighbors came over and asked me to fix things for them but if it was a daily or even weekly occurance it was literally for "oh, no! My teddy bear's eye fell off, could you magick it back on?" than I'd probably either plot a neighborhood-wide homicidal spree or go into self-exile out in the wood where I'm so far away from people that it's unproductive to drive out to my house that often and have me fix all their little problems. Just like you don't go to your doctor neighbor to ask if you need stiches every time you get a scratch or a cut or if your toe is broken every time you stub it, you don't go to your wizard neighbor every time you need something magicked.

If, however, it was like asking your neighbors to feed your pets while you're on vacation, i.e. an occurance that happens once a year or so, than I wouldn't mind. Likewise, if it was a major thing like "my toilet is overflowing raw sewage into my house!" I'd totally help!

[owlycherries]

No, I don't think it would be possible for Wizards to come out of hiding and live with muggles. It just wouldn't work!
Their lifestyles are so different we'd just clash. And to be honest, wouldn't the muggles feel pretty jealous? It could start a war! Plus, like someone said up there ^ muggles might try to extract the magical gene and mess with it ... Some muggle humans, I feel, can be selfish and greedy. I don't think they'd be able to control themselves doing whatever they could to get that magical gene!
On a personal level, if my neighbours kept wanting my help I'd probably feel a little smug at first. But then it would just get annoying. How could they be bothered trying to sort anything out themselves if they knew I could do it for them with a flick of my wand? And then i'd feel bad for not helping. Vicious cycle there.
ALSO, the Wizarding world is so much more quirky being old fashioned and secretive. I think if they started parading around and using computers like muggles it wouldn't be so exciting.
So all in all, I think it's best for Wizards to stay hidden.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by owlycherries

Some muggle humans, I feel, can be selfish and greedy.

But some wizards are just as equally capable of being selfish and greedy, let's not lay all the negative qualities on muggles. I could conceive a world where wizards come out of hiding and muggles attempt to extract the "magic gene" from them and at the same time wizards attempt to extert increasing amounts of control over the muggles because of their magical endowments.

For however persecuted the wizarding world has been in the past that does not mean that the entire wizarding world if made up of perfectly accepting, innocent, loveable teddy bears of people; in fact most of the wizarding world looks down on muggles, even the Weasleys who do it with amused condescention but condescention none the less. Wizards do have an ingrained sense of superiority towards muggles, however much it is masked by humor and righteous action.

[Dedalus Diggle]

It is no mistake that there were rather plain parallels drawn between the various 'dark wizard' movements and the rise of fascism, communism, nazism, progressivism and other dictatorial/totalitarian movements. They all involve cabals of people who think they know how to live others' lives better than the people living those lives do, and decide they must impose their wonderful wisdom on the rest of us 'for the greater good. Every oppressive movement has achieved its power by claiming moral authority to act 'for the greater good.' Often they actually have ideas that in isolation are good, but they usually toss aside other values that are much better, such as freedom. Also, in their zeal to achieve their idealistic vision, they become ever more overbearing, and attract ever more zealous and ruthless people (sometimes 'true believers' in the stated goal, and sometimes just people who want to wield authority over others). The latter is the difference between true believers like Bella and Barty Crouch, Jr. and the rioters at the Quidditch World Cup who really just wanted to celebrate their ability to torment lesser beings (as they saw it).

[merrymarge]

I would be afraid to have Muggles and Wizards living in the open together. Muggles would try and take advantage of the Wizarding world. They would demand instant results to problems like love== make a love potion so my girlfriend/boyfriend falls for me, fix my grades so I can get into a great college, "Could you help me clean house with your magic"? "Got a special recipe I can use for my family, etc".
There would be fear on Muggles' part, fear that if you make your wizard neighbor mad you can wake up with spots or a horn in the middle of your head. And what's to stop some Muggle asking for help for a favorite baseball team, football team. favorite golfer. A simple confundus spell, or another type of spell so a hit baseball can carry farther than normal for homeruns or a punted football over the goal post.
These are simple problems, but maybe they can lead to bigger problems.

[GrimeldaDursley]

Wizards, like Muggles, are only human, just humans with special abilities. Muggles just depend these days on technology, Wizarding people on Magic. I don't think anything is a given, technology could fail and many many Muggles would simply not knowhow to cope. I feel the same way about Magic. I feel that Magic has it's origins in the Earth, and the balance of Natural things. And I feel that like technology, as the Earth becomes more unbalanced, one day Magic could fail also. And if that happens, it's going to affect everybody, Magical or Muggle. Whether Muggles know it or not, or even care to believe such a thing, all technology is a mechanical means to harness Magic. The same end, different means.

Wizards and Muggles are eventually going to have to get together on things, for the "greater good" of everyone.

[merrymarge]

Would magic stop wars?
Magic would heal people who are hurt; Not bring back people who have died.

[GrimeldaDursley]

Oh, yeah, it could stop them all right. Which brings to mind the question, would that be interfering with destiny? The way to stop wars is for everyone involved to have a part in it, not automatically stopping it. People have to come around themselves, though unfortunately they probably never will.

[merrymarge]

Magic didn't stop the two Wizarding Wars.
I don't know if I would want wizards and Muggles to mingle. Not openly. I like the special magical world and if everyone knew about it, it wouldn't be special or magical. I like movies but don't really want to know how they make them, magic is the same. Mysterious. Eerie.
I could accept it.
All I would like is a way to help me clean house.