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Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2



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  #1021  
Old January 31st, 2014, 6:08 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

I've always had a love hate relationship with Dumbledore. But I do believe now, that he had a difficult role to play, one that he succeeded in, but by sacrificing a few people on the way and I do believe he regretted it a lot. I understand as a leader he always had to see the bigger picture, which was the defeat of Voldemort, but I do feel bitter about some of his actions with Snape and Harry. He could have saved Snape so much guilt and heartache if only he had stopped Snape from going to Voldemort with what he heard of the prophecy.

Likewise he could have made Harry's life so much better if only he had checked up on him once in a while, considering that he was going to ask Harry to give up his life, life his mother died to give him for the sake of defeating Voldemort.


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  #1022  
Old January 31st, 2014, 8:43 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
He could have saved Snape so much guilt and heartache if only he had stopped Snape from going to Voldemort with what he heard of the prophecy.
But if he had done that, Voldemort could never have been defeated, because he would not have "marked" Harry as his vanquisher; all would have been lost.


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  #1023  
Old February 1st, 2014, 9:48 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

But that assumes that Dumbledore necessarily needed to allow the Potters and the Longbottoms to die, because with the four elders alive, there was no way Harry or Neville would ever be marked.

Plus that alone would not have ensured Harry or Neville's life against Voldemort. What I do believe made Harry live was truly ancient magic, the type Dumbledore spoke of in PoA, when he heard about Harry sparing Peter's life.

I think it was Snape's desperate request to Voldemort for Lily's life, which made Voldemort give Lily a chance to step aside, combining with Lily's own desperate wish for Harry to live that made magic seal such a potent protection inside of Harry.

1 Snape asked Voldemort for Lily's life.
2 Voldemort agreed. That I think invoked a magic when he actually gave a choice to Lily to step aside.
3 Had Lily stepped aside, I do think Harry would have been killed. If Lily had said no, then too, I think Harry would have died, since in both cases, Snape's request had been fulfilled by Voldemort and Lily.
4 But Lily did neither. She stood in front of Harry and cried not Harry. So I believe when Voldemort cast the killing curse at Lily, he did not realize that having started to fulfill Snape's promise of sparing Lily, he had reneged it; betrayed it.
5 So magic I think punished him, by taking Snape's earnest wish for Lily to live and Lily's earnest wish for Harry to live and placed inside Harry a protection against the man who betrayed a promise he gave Snape, which he started to fulfill, but did not complete.
6 I also think had Voldemort not given Lily a choice at all, then too like James, Lily and Harry would have died.

So in the end it was Snape who I think gave Harry his protection, which Dumbledore could not known about. That was how I think Harry was marked.

Therefore, I do believe that there was no way Harry or Neville could have been marked unless the parents/families and friends protecting them died. And I don't think that could have been Dumbledore's idea.

I agree that Dumbledore's plan was to get the prophecy to Voldemort and influence Voldemort enough to make the prophecy a self fulfilling one. From Dumbledore's point of view it's a perfect plan, though it was dangerous too. What if he was unable to protect the families involved, since he did deliberately allow the the prophecy to reach voldemort's ears. In the end he was unable to protect the families, both the Potters and the Longbottoms. Both families suffered; both children were made orphans, all because Dumbledore after sending Snape off with what he'd heard, did not do enough to ensure the safety of the Potters and the Longbottoms, to the best of his ability. Knowing there was a spy should have made his priority the flushing out of the traitor, or at least, knowing that the spy could harm the families involved.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Dumbledore took upon himself a huge responsibility, when he allowed Snape to run off with what he'd heard. Did he follow through on that responsibility? I think he could have done better.

Then the Potters and the Longbottoms would have been safe and he still would have gotw his spy. Snape came to him well before the Potters and the Longbottoms were killed/incapacitated forever. Snape could have had a life where he would not, not unlike Sirius regret and repent every single day about Lily's death. So I guess I do feel Dumbledore did not do his job well that time. Taking an action like he did, I do think his responsibility towards making the Potters and Longbottoms safe could have gone better.


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  #1024  
Old February 5th, 2014, 4:03 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
But if he had done that, Voldemort could never have been defeated, because he would not have "marked" Harry as his vanquisher; all would have been lost.
Dumbledore never believed that the prophecy was set in stone though. On the contrary, he knew that not all prophecies came true. His goal was to prevent this one from coming true. He didn't need the prophecy to defeat Voldemort. He only needed information - which he would have gotten much sooner had he succeeded in preventing Voldemort from bringing this prophecy about. He failed because Pettigrew succeeded in fooling everyone and was able to help Voldemort get to the Potters. That was never part of Dumbledore's plan.

That failure bought Voldemort another 17 years. He was unable to do anything for 14 of those years, but he would have been defeated and killed much sooner if he had never gotten to the Potters that night. Dumbledore was already on the right track to figuring out how to defeat Voldemort and Voldemort's plans for the diary would have been carried out and led Dumbledore to the same conclusions much sooner had he not attacked the Potters with his body being destroyed that night. The only reason Lucius waited to follow through was because Voldemort disappeared. Lucius held onto the diary until he saw an opportunity for that plan to benefit him personally - and that played into him being punished by Voldemort because he wasn't supposed to carry out that plan until Voldemort told him to.

The diary was the key to figuring out how to defeat Voldemort - not the prophecy. All the prophecy did was further complicate things by giving Voldemort more time and ensuring that Harry would have to die in order for Voldemort to be killed. If Dumbledore had been successful in preventing Voldemort from trying to kill Harry - and Neville since we now know that attempting to kill either would have had similar results - he would have been able to defeat Voldemort himself years before. There would never have been any need to hide Harry or ever put him in danger or plan Harry's death.

Of course, had that happened, we wouldn't have had much of a story either.


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  #1025  
Old February 6th, 2014, 7:29 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
But if he had done that, Voldemort could never have been defeated, because he would not have "marked" Harry as his vanquisher; all would have been lost.
Did the "marking" necessarily imply that Voldy had to know about the prophecy? And without this, there would be these two lives spared.

There is the Obliviate spell, why nobody used it on Snape?

I liked Dumbledore in the first books, now I find him unbelievably incompetent as teacher, Headmaster and leader.


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  #1026  
Old February 6th, 2014, 8:22 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Did the "marking" necessarily imply that Voldy had to know about the prophecy? And without this, there would be these two lives spared.
Yes. Voldemort was not going to mark anybody unless he knew someone posed a specific threat.

Dumbledore had no intention of letting the prophecy play out. It was James and Lily's mistake to pick Peter as Secret Keeper rather than Dumbledore.

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There is the Obliviate spell, why nobody used it on Snape?
Because Voldemort could break it. Dumbledore really couldn't do much about Snape overhearing it short of kidnapping him and keeping him away from Voldemort.


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  #1027  
Old February 7th, 2014, 2:27 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Yes. Voldemort was not going to mark anybody unless he knew someone posed a specific threat.
The marking wasn't intentional though. Voldemort did not know that part of the prophecy. Harry was marked because a piece of Voldemort's soul got inside of him - which Voldemort never intended at all.

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Dumbledore had no intention of letting the prophecy play out. It was James and Lily's mistake to pick Peter as Secret Keeper rather than Dumbledore.
Exactly. They believed Pettigrew was their friend and that they could trust him. Pettigrew was a lot more clever than anyone gave him credit for. He fooled everyone - including Dumbledore.

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Because Voldemort could break it. Dumbledore really couldn't do much about Snape overhearing it short of kidnapping him and keeping him away from Voldemort.
That is true. I think there were a lot of factors in that. We don't know if Dumbledore knew that Snape was a Death Eater at that point. He obviously knew later, but Snape had requested that meeting with the claim that Voldemort had a message for Dumbledore so he basically admitted to it there. I'm not sure if Dumbledore knew that the night he heard the prophecy.

I think Dumbledore was shaken by hearing the prophecy. That wasn't planned or expected so he was caught by surprise all the way around there. First hearing the prophecy and then discovering that Snape had been listening at the door. I don't think he was at his best in that moment.

I also wonder if Aberforth might have been a factor in that as well. I could see Dumbledore telling him to take Snape out with the intention of dealing with him afterward and Aberforth misunderstanding and kicking him out entirely. Dumbledore and Aberforth didn't always understand each other or see eye to eye on things.


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  #1028  
Old February 9th, 2014, 1:14 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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The marking wasn't intentional though. Voldemort did not know that part of the prophecy. Harry was marked because a piece of Voldemort's soul got inside of him - which Voldemort never intended at all.
I think the way the marking actually manifested was just a detail. I would argue that Voldemort singling out Harry as a specific threat in his mind was what got the prophecy rolling and that would not have happened if Voldemort had no knowledge of the prophecy.


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  #1029  
Old February 9th, 2014, 2:28 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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He could have saved Snape so much guilt and heartache if only he had stopped Snape from going to Voldemort with what he heard of the prophecy.
How exactly could he have done that? There are such things as free will and choice. Snape exercised both when he eavesdropped on Dumbledore and Trelawney, and again when he told Voldemort what he had heard.


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  #1030  
Old February 10th, 2014, 9:41 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I think the way the marking actually manifested was just a detail. I would argue that Voldemort singling out Harry as a specific threat in his mind was what got the prophecy rolling and that would not have happened if Voldemort had no knowledge of the prophecy.
That was the whole point really. Voldemort singling Harry out was mostly symbolic - he decided Harry was "the one" based on the first part of the prophecy and made the prophecy come true by acting on that. If he had ignored it, neither boy would have become "the one". The irony of all that was the fact that it was a self fulfilling prophecy and that was a large part of Voldemort bringing about his own destruction.

That also showed that Voldemort really didn't believe the pureblood ideology. He used that to gain followers like the Malfoys and the Blacks, but he knew there really wasn't anything to it. Having a muggle father didn't prevent him from becoming a powerful wizard - the most powerful in his own opinion. Had he actually believed that ideology, he would have chosen Neville simply because he was a pureblood. The fact that he waited nearly a year and made his decision based on information he got from Pettigrew was significant in revealing that hypocrisy in Voldemort.

Dumbledore explaining that - and that the prophecy could have been ignored - are among my favorite moments from the books. Not really huge details, but still very important to understanding the story and characters involved.

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How exactly could he have done that? There are such things as free will and choice. Snape exercised both when he eavesdropped on Dumbledore and Trelawney, and again when he told Voldemort what he had heard.
Exactly. I think Dumbledore understood that Snape didn't feel guilty about telling Voldemort about the prophecy. Snape felt that was his job and whatever Voldemort chose to do with that information was not his responsibility. Snape never blamed himself for what happened to Lily. He blamed Voldemort, Dumbledore, the Marauders, and even Harry for being born, but never himself. Dumbledore knew that Snape was angry because Voldemort betrayed him by killing Lily after promising that he would not. He also understood that Snape blamed him - and others - for not protecting Lily, but was willing to help him bring down Voldemort to get his revenge because Voldemort's betrayal was the bigger crime for Snape. Dumbledore took advantage of that - and that worked out to Harry's benefit in the end.

But none of that really applied to the prophecy. The other factor that has to be considered is that it really was not possible for Dumbledore to prevent Voldemort from finding out about the prophecy. Voldemort had Death Eaters inside the ministry and they had no way of knowing who they were at that point. They didn't know about the Dark Mark tattoos back then. Augustus Rookwood worked in the Department of Mysteries so he would have been able to tell Voldemort about the prophecy. He may have even been able to get Voldemort inside to hear the full prophecy himself at that point. Dumbledore had also figured out that Voldemort had a spy in the Order - he just hadn't figured out who it was. I think Dumbledore understood that Voldemort would eventually find out about the prophecy. I still think he probably intended to question Snape and Aberforth prevented that by misunderstanding and kicking Snape out, but I don't think Dumbledore was overly worried about it at that time.

I don't think Dumbledore was trying to prevent Voldemort from finding out about the prophecy at that point so much as wanting to prevent him from being able to act on it. Since there were other ways Voldemort could learn about the prophecy and possibly even hear all of it for himself, the priority would have been to protect the two families that met the requirements given in the prophecy. Both families were instructed to be careful and keep a low profile. The Longbottoms probably did the same as the Potters and stayed in their home during that year. When Snape came to Dumbledore a year later and revealed which boy Voldemort had chosen, he decided to use the Fidelius Charm as a more secure protection. But that didn't work out because he never figured out that Pettigrew was Voldemort's spy.


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  #1031  
Old February 11th, 2014, 7:46 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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How exactly could he have done that? There are such things as free will and choice. Snape exercised both when he eavesdropped on Dumbledore and Trelawney, and again when he told Voldemort what he had heard.
Snape was a spy for Voldemort, that is he was a part of Voldemort's side, a side that was totally opposite Dumbledore's. Yes, Snape did exercise freewill when he came and eavesdropped at Trelawney's door and I also agree he would have gone to Voldemort with what he heard, because at that time he was loyal to Voldemort. He did not care that a baby and that the baby's parents would die because of his actions and I do believe he needed to seek remorse for that and I also believe he did.

Dumbledore caught Snape in the act of spying for the other side. as far as i am concerned, Dumbledore's actions should have been different, unless he was allowing Snape to deliberately leave with what he heard, because it was for some reason advantageous to him (Dumbledore) and his side.

If a spy is caught in the real world, I don't think he is sent away with what he has learnt, leaving him to his conscience to do the right thing. For example, if any Government caught a spy who had heard sensitive information that could be potentially damaging to their country and people, the spy is going to be locked away until said threat is over. He really will be sent back only if the Government thinks it can work around what the spy knows and actually catch more of the spy's people who intend to and are actually indulging in acts of terror.

Voldemort was the wizard version of a terrorist IMO. A spy from his ranks caught by none other than the leader of the opposite side is never ever going to release him, unless the leader too is in cahoots with Voldemort or because the leader believes something good may come for his side because of the spy's actions. Dumbledore, for all his faults was not on Voldemort's side IMO. So, thinking about why he sent Snape away with what he heard was I think because 1) Snape did not hear the entire Prophecy; 2) He hoped Voldemort would take the Prophecy seriously, thereby making the Prophecy true and thus bringing his downfall and 3) He really thought he could protect the Child of the Prophecy well.

Voldemort did take the Prophecy seriously; he did go against the child of the Prophecy, but even with Snape's input about the family Voldemort was going to target (the Potters) and that there was a spy in the Order's ranks, which Dumbledore himself suspected, the Potters died, and the Longbottoms became insane. He had Snape who came in well before the Potters died, so he could have insisted that he be the Potters and the Longbottoms SK or protect them in such a way that no one had access to both families until the traitor was flushed out. I think Dumbledore failed here in a big way. IMO.

Of course he did try POA tells us that and James Potter did not listen; the irony is that James did not listen when Dumbledore was suspicious of Sirius, but then he and Lily went ahead and listened to Sirius, agreed with him that Remus could be a traitor because he was a werewolf and changed SKs telling no one, which hurt them in such a terrible manner. they lost their lives, Sirius got thrown into Azkaban, harry in his cupboard and Remus vanished for 13 years.

Having made such a vital decision to sent Snape away with what he had heard, I think Dumbledore could have done better.


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  #1032  
Old February 13th, 2014, 12:44 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post

Exactly. I think Dumbledore understood that Snape didn't feel guilty about telling Voldemort about the prophecy. Snape felt that was his job and whatever Voldemort chose to do with that information was not his responsibility. Snape never blamed himself for what happened to Lily. He blamed Voldemort, Dumbledore, the Marauders, and even Harry for being born, but never himself. Dumbledore knew that Snape was angry because Voldemort betrayed him by killing Lily after promising that he would not. He also understood that Snape blamed him - and others - for not protecting Lily, but was willing to help him bring down Voldemort to get his revenge because Voldemort's betrayal was the bigger crime for Snape. Dumbledore took advantage of that - and that worked out to Harry's benefit in the end.
Responded to on the Snape thread.


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  #1033  
Old February 13th, 2014, 1:26 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Having made such a vital decision to sent Snape away with what he had heard, I think Dumbledore could have done better.
I couldn't agree more. I spent a good deal of DH being just as mad at the old man as Harry was. And angry with Jo, as well, for writing so many twists and triangulations into an increasingly convoluted final plot.


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  #1034  
Old February 13th, 2014, 8:31 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
If a spy is caught in the real world, I don't think he is sent away with what he has learnt, leaving him to his conscience to do the right thing. For example, if any Government caught a spy who had heard sensitive information that could be potentially damaging to their country and people, the spy is going to be locked away until said threat is over. He really will be sent back only if the Government thinks it can work around what the spy knows and actually catch more of the spy's people who intend to and are actually indulging in acts of terror.
The Ministry policy under Barty Crouch was closest to how the real world operates. Even right at the end, despite McGonagall's proclamation to Slughorn that they would "fight to kill", there is not one instance (with the exception of Molly) where the good side attempts to kill. The real world deals with spies and enemies much more harshly than Dumbledore ever would. I'm actually on Barty's side in this one but it seems Jo deliberately did not want the good side to use such tactics.

I may be remembering incorrectly here but wasn't Snape at the Hog's Head looking for an interview? We don't know whether Dumbledore even knew that Snape was a death eater. I don't think Dumbledore would simply let a known death eater walk free regardless of whether they heard something important.

Quote:
Voldemort did take the Prophecy seriously; he did go against the child of the Prophecy, but even with Snape's input about the family Voldemort was going to target (the Potters) and that there was a spy in the Order's ranks, which Dumbledore himself suspected, the Potters died, and the Longbottoms became insane. He had Snape who came in well before the Potters died, so he could have insisted that he be the Potters and the Longbottoms SK or protect them in such a way that no one had access to both families until the traitor was flushed out. I think Dumbledore failed here in a big way. IMO.
Dumbledore was not in the habit of forcing people to do what he wanted. At the end of the day, it was entirely James' and Lily's decision and they made the wrong one. In fact, they made their last minute decision to switch without even consulting Dumbledore.

We don't know how the situation with the Longbottoms were but they were attacked after everyone thought the danger had passed.


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  #1035  
Old February 14th, 2014, 10:26 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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The Ministry policy under Barty Crouch was closest to how the real world operates. Even right at the end, despite McGonagall's proclamation to Slughorn that they would "fight to kill", there is not one instance (with the exception of Molly) where the good side attempts to kill. The real world deals with spies and enemies much more harshly than Dumbledore ever would. I'm actually on Barty's side in this one but it seems Jo deliberately did not want the good side to use such tactics.
I think that the good side also used such tactics. In DH, Lupin is horrified when he hears Harry using an expelliarmus. But Harry is is a child at that time; to him using such harsh curses is horrifying. But for Lupin, Kingsley, Moody I think it was different. When they attack the Death Eaters, I think they attack to permanently remove said Death Eaters from circulation.



Lupin looked aghast.

Harry the time for disarming is past?These people are trying to capture and kill you. At least stun, if you are not prepared to kill.


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We see only Molly killing Bellatrix, but I think most if not all Order members fought to eliminate Death Eaters, whenever they met. I think that may be one reason Molly is rather against the Trio sitting in on any Order meetings and knowing what happened between Order members and Death eaters, once the Order was reformed.

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I may be remembering incorrectly here but wasn't Snape at the Hog's Head looking for an interview? We don't know whether Dumbledore even knew that Snape was a death eater. I don't think Dumbledore would simply let a known death eater walk free regardless of whether they heard something important.
Yes Snape was at the Hog's Head spying on Dumbledore.

I agree until that moment Dumbledore may not have known Snape was a Death Eater, but the moment Aberforth caught Snape and dragged him into the room Trelawney was in (she remembers seeing him after she made the Prophecy which she was not aware she made), Dumbledore would have questioned him.

Or should have questioned him. If Dumbledore didn't, well that was negligence of a criminal nature in my opinion, because they were in the middle of a war, and Snape had heard something sensitive and very important to Voldemort.

In OOTP he says he never expected to hear anything worthwhile from her and then she gave the Prophecy about the defeat of Voldemort at a time everyone was losing to him.



My - our - one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the Prophecy and thrown from the building

OOTP The Lost Prophecy.

But Trelawney saw him after she made the Prophecy, which she states in HBP

...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!

What?

Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping.


HBP - The Seer Overheard


I think Dumbledore would have questioned him because he knew how much Snape knew. Without questioning him, Dumbledore would not have known that. Having sent Snape away with what he heard, Dumbledore then went on to offer Trelawney a job, but actually, it was more of a protection, so that Voldemort would not be able to get her to know the full contents of the Prophecy.

The Prophecy was important to Dumbledore because he knew Voldemort would set store by it, which automatically meant that he needed to place adequate safeguards around the possible child/children of the Prophecy once they were born IMO.



I cannot ask Firenze to return to the Forest, where now he is an outcast, nor can I ask Sybil Trelawney to leave. Between ourselves, she has no idea of the danger she would be in outside the castle. She does not know - and I think it would be unwise to enlighten her - that she made a Prophecy about you and Voldemort, you see.

HBP - Lord Voldemort's Request


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Dumbledore was not in the habit of forcing people to do what he wanted. At the end of the day, it was entirely James' and Lily's decision and they made the wrong one. In fact, they made their last minute decision to switch without even consulting Dumbledore.

We don't know how the situation with the Longbottoms were but they were attacked after everyone thought the danger had passed.
It was because he allowed Snape to leave with the Prophecy that James and Lily were targeted more than they already were. Before they were targets yes, but that was the case with all Order members. Now, because of Dumbledore's actions the two families became specific targets, with a bulls eye painted all over them.

I agree though that it was James and Lily's decision and I think they went about it as wrong as a way as they could. But I do feel that Dumbledore knowing that his actions could end up resulting in the Potters deaths, should have been just a bit more insistent, maybe even a lot more insistent, especially after Snape came to him with information about how Voldemort had taken what he, Snape had heard of the Propechy and what he was going to do with it.


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Last edited by The_Green_Woods; February 14th, 2014 at 10:38 am.
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Old February 16th, 2014, 5:38 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I couldn't agree more. I spent a good deal of DH being just as mad at the old man as Harry was. And angry with Jo, as well, for writing so many twists and triangulations into an increasingly convoluted final plot.

The third here. I'm sorry, all this story doesn't make any sense to me.


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Old February 26th, 2014, 10:49 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I think that the good side also used such tactics. In DH, Lupin is horrified when he hears Harry using an expelliarmus. But Harry is is a child at that time; to him using such harsh curses is horrifying. But for Lupin, Kingsley, Moody I think it was different. When they attack the Death Eaters, I think they attack to permanently remove said Death Eaters from circulation.
True but we see no evidence of it on page. All killing curses seem to originate from death eaters.

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We see only Molly killing Bellatrix, but I think most if not all Order members fought to eliminate Death Eaters, whenever they met. I think that may be one reason Molly is rather against the Trio sitting in on any Order meetings and knowing what happened between Order members and Death eaters, once the Order was reformed.
The thing is that we never hear of a death eater fatality caused by an Order member. All the well-known death eaters turn up for the final battle at Hogwarts and even at the end, right before Harry faces Voldemort in the Great Hall, the death eaters wind up defeated instead of dead.

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Yes Snape was at the Hog's Head spying on Dumbledore.

I agree until that moment Dumbledore may not have known Snape was a Death Eater, but the moment Aberforth caught Snape and dragged him into the room Trelawney was in (she remembers seeing him after she made the Prophecy which she was not aware she made), Dumbledore would have questioned him.

Or should have questioned him. If Dumbledore didn't, well that was negligence of a criminal nature in my opinion, because they were in the middle of a war, and Snape had heard something sensitive and very important to Voldemort.

In OOTP he says he never expected to hear anything worthwhile from her and then she gave the Prophecy about the defeat of Voldemort at a time everyone was losing to him.
Snape was a master Occlumens so I don't think questioning from Dumbledore would necessarily have revealed that he was a death eater.

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It was because he allowed Snape to leave with the Prophecy that James and Lily were targeted more than they already were. Before they were targets yes, but that was the case with all Order members. Now, because of Dumbledore's actions the two families became specific targets, with a bulls eye painted all over them.
If James and Lily were already targeted, this wouldn't change anything. It simply becomes another reason for Voldemort to go after them. Its not like there was a chance that Voldemort would stop pursuing them at some point in the future.

Quote:
I agree though that it was James and Lily's decision and I think they went about it as wrong as a way as they could. But I do feel that Dumbledore knowing that his actions could end up resulting in the Potters deaths, should have been just a bit more insistent, maybe even a lot more insistent, especially after Snape came to him with information about how Voldemort had taken what he, Snape had heard of the Propechy and what he was going to do with it.
IMO as long as James and Lily were fully aware of the threat they were facing, it was their decision. Dumbledore couldn't protect everybody and I imagine Voldemort had a laundry list of high priority targets like Harry.

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post

The third here. I'm sorry, all this story doesn't make any sense to me.
Dumbledore really didn't have any master plan set up for the final book. In fact, he had no plan at all aside from somehow getting the Sword to Harry and the knowledge that he had to die in the end.


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Old March 9th, 2014, 2:15 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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The thing is that we never hear of a death eater fatality caused by an Order member.


I agree, but that’s not to say it never happened. Lupin’s words are to the effect that even a 17 year old boy should use curses to kill, which implies that other Order members do the same.

In fact in the same chapter Kingsley Shacklebolt says that he might have killed one and he’spretty much matter of fact about it.

“What happened to you?” Lupin asked Kingsley.

“Followed by five, injured two, might’ve have killed one,” Kingsley reeled off....

DH – Fallen Warrior

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Snape was a master Occlumens so I don't think questioning from Dumbledore would necessarily have revealed that he was a death eater.


We don’t know if he was one at that time, it’s possible he could have been, and if he was, then I think Dumbledore should have been doubly careful. An Occlumens who had been caught eavesdropping on him, should have been very carefully checked inside out. I think any person caught so, should be treated suspiciously and as a threat unless they proved otherwise. I don’t think Dumbledore would have treated Snape as a non-threat, or as a casual civilian, until Snape disproved him of that fact. Not when they were in the middle of a war; one they were losing.

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If James and Lily were already targeted, this wouldn't change anything. It simply becomes another reason for Voldemort to go after them. Its not like there was a chance that Voldemort would stop pursuing them at some point in the future.


I agree and I’ve used the same reason elsewhere too, many times. I agree James and Lily were already targets, in fact I think they were not killed earlier (along with Harry), only because Voldemort wanted his spy in the Order, just as he did not ask Snape to bring him one Muggleborn or two, because he wanted Snape close to Dumbledore. If Voldemort had not wanted Peter in the Order and if he wanted to pull him out, I think the Potters would have died first, perhaps even long before the Prophecy was made. The Potters staying safe fooled Dumbledore into thinking that the spy could not be Potter, Black, Lupin or Peter, because none of them were specifically targeted either at their homes, where Peter or any of the other Marauders could let the De’s in.


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Old March 13th, 2014, 9:03 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I agree, but that’s not to say it never happened. Lupin’s words are to the effect that even a 17 year old boy should use curses to kill, which implies that other Order members do the same.
True but Jo had a reluctance to show it on screen.

Quote:
In fact in the same chapter Kingsley Shacklebolt says that he might have killed one and he’spretty much matter of fact about it.
The Kingsley quote is interesting because it implies that those possible deaths were caused by injuries or some other external occurrence. He shouldn't have had doubts if he was throwing around AKs.

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We don’t know if he was one at that time, it’s possible he could have been, and if he was, then I think Dumbledore should have been doubly careful. An Occlumens who had been caught eavesdropping on him, should have been very carefully checked inside out. I think any person caught so, should be treated suspiciously and as a threat unless they proved otherwise. I don’t think Dumbledore would have treated Snape as a non-threat, or as a casual civilian, until Snape disproved him of that fact. Not when they were in the middle of a war; one they were losing.
Dumbledore wouldn't have known whether Snape was an Occlumens at the time. That's the sort of information that is kept secret. I think, at the end of the day, Dumbledore didn't have enough evidence that Snape was on Voldemort's side and decided to let him go. He decided to risk the chance that he was wrong because the people Voldemort was going to target were already targets.


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Old March 17th, 2014, 3:44 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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True but Jo had a reluctance to show it on screen.
I guess JKR did not want her teen heroes to use curses that would kill and make them look war weary; though I think she could not let it go completely, so I think she gave a hint to her older readers that Order members too fought to kill, capture and defeat DEs permanently.

Quote:
The Kingsley quote is interesting because it implies that those possible deaths were caused by injuries or some other external occurrence. He shouldn't have had doubts if he was throwing around AKs.
Not necessarily with the AK's. A well aimed Diffindo or a Reducto could do it too. A powerful Lumos for example could blind the opponent. In the 7 Potters, a simple stunning spell could kill the DE by making him fall from a great height and summoning his broom could hurt him badly too.

Quote:
Dumbledore wouldn't have known whether Snape was an Occlumens at the time. That's the sort of information that is kept secret. I think, at the end of the day, Dumbledore didn't have enough evidence that Snape was on Voldemort's side and decided to let him go. He decided to risk the chance that he was wrong because the people Voldemort was going to target were already targets.
I think it does not matter whether Snape is an Occlumens or not. It does not matter whether Snape heard the full Prophecy or not. It does not even matter whether Snape heard anything at all; the moment Snape was caught eavesdropping outside a first floor room (so he could not be there by chance) upon Dumbledore who was, during that period engaged in a terrible war, he should have been investigated.

And since Dumbledore at that time was hearing something very important, something that could very well end the war, if handled properly, the resultant investigation IMO should have been more thorough.

Snape was a Slytherin at that time and with the view Slytherins were placed under, I can't believe that Dumbledore would not have suspected Snape to be DE or someone at the very least extremely suspicious for being caught at the time and place he was.

I think at that time Dumbledore either should have investigated Snape throughly or if he let Snape off (which was a massively wrong thing to do IMO) it should have been done with the understanding Snape heard everything, and that it was good news for his side to let Snape leave with what he heard.

I think that's how it should have worked. To let Snape go with what he heard, and assuming he heard nothing or believing whatever Snape said and took him at his word IMO disqualifies Dumbledore as a leader who fought Voldemort, because he clearly did not fight in any manner that mattered at all, and was floundering to say the least and was guilty of gross negligence that placed people working for him at tremendous risk at the worst.

But I believe Dumbledore did neither. He knew precisely what Snape heard and it was because Snape did not hear everything that he let Snape go, knowing that he would go straight to Voldemort.

He also followed that decision with giving Trelawney a job, so that Voldemort could not get to her for the rest of the Prophecy.


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