The Most Powerful Wizards and Witches.

[decaye23]

Originally Posted by speedy3702

Yes, very interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if he just tried to use it like a regular wand. As we know he tried to avoid power like a recovering alcoholic tries to avoid to take a drink. So it becomes really an interesting question how much of the power of the wand he really used. Because if he would use to much of it, then his old "addiction" of power could become problematic again.

By the way, I like this comparison. Well done, mate.

[speedy3702]

Originally Posted by captain_mills

One connection I'd like to make is that the most powerful wizards and witches seem to be those who have strong emotions to draw from. We see evidence in the Patronus charm that Lupin teaches Harry that a powerful emotional memory will trigger a stronger and more powerful response in the spell. Dumbledore has very strong emotional memories to draw from when performing his magic, and so do many of the Order. Voldemort has years of feeling outcast and hatred to draw from.

I don't think that it is necessary to be a very emotional person to become one of the most powerful wizards. But I think that a lot of the most powerful spells in the world are based on the idea of emotional control. Like you pointed out correctly on the Patronos Charm. Or we could also mention a negative example like the Cruciatus Curse, where you have to be able to focus your anger to cast the spell correctly.

Originally Posted by decaye23

By the way, I like this comparison. Well done, mate.

Thanks. I appreciated your intervensions in this discussion as well. Very good reasoning on your posts. I'm looking forwart to more interesting discussions in the future.

[decaye23]

Originally Posted by speedy3702

I don't think that it is necessary to be a very emotional person to become one of the most powerful wizards. But I think that a lot of the most powerful spells in the world are based on the idea of emotional control. Like you pointed out correctly on the Patronos Charm. Or we could also mention a negative example like the Cruciatus Curse, where you have to be able to focus your anger to cast the spell correctly.


Thanks. I appreciated your intervensions in this discussion as well. Very good reasoning on your posts. I'm looking forwart to more interesting discussions in the future.

Thanks, mate. You, as well.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by speedy3702

I think that here we have just to agree to disagree. Because I simply can not imagine that JK Rowling would invest an entire book to this storyline, if the Elder Wand wouldn't make someone significally stronger.

I think the Deathly Hallows was introduced to deal with the theme of death. The legend that possessing all three made you Master of Death and Harry's struggle with it. I don't think the individual objects were as important. Voldemort gave a lot of importance to it though which ended up costing him his life.

Originally Posted by decaye23

There is a good point in that repsonse, that I want to turn into a question.

Why was Voldemort wary of Dumbledore? Why is it misconstrued that Tom was afraid of DD magically. (Along the same vein of Grindelwald and DD)

The most obvious reason is because Voldemort never took on Dumbledore. It is fairly clear that if you were a big enough problem for Voldemort, he would hunt you down and kill you personally.

You brought up a good example. But, why is that scene a demonstration of fear? I see no fear there. I see how it can be interpreted that way...but what I see is that Tom still hadn't completed some of his plans, like his army, couple of more Horcruxes, etc..it may not have been the right time to go after Dumbledore. At that point in time, even if DD would have been willing to try and kill Tom, it would not have worked. We, of course, knew about his Horcruxes, even if DD didn't quite know yet.

I wouldn't say he was scared in that scene. He was angry and likely would have killed or tortured if it was anyone else. He controlled himself because a fight with Dumbledore was not going to be easy.

As far as what Bellatrix was saying..."He is here..he is below" - That was her scared of DD...Voldemort ignored her. Duel ensues shortly thereafter.

I read that as him not paying attention to what she said. He was angry that the prophecy was smashed and had Harry in front of him, ready to die.

I just don't see fear from Tom anywhere in that chapter, even though we know the name of that chapter. (Except the possession of course, but that's Harry, not DD.)

I don't think Voldemort was scared of Dumbledore in the way that other people were scared of him. I think Dumbledore was the only person who had Voldemort's respect as a rival. Dumbledore was the only one who made Voldemort think twice. I think Voldemort would have believed that he had enough skill to beat Dumbledore or atleast enough skill to ensure that he could escape if things went badly. I imagine that in duels between top individuals, the winner gets decided on smaller things like out-thinking your opponent, clear head under pressure, faster reflexes rather than pure magical skill.

Originally Posted by captain_mills

Just a thought, of course... I'm not spouting canon or anything... But it seems as if there is a connection between one's emotions, memories, and such and their ability to do magic.

What do you think?

I think strong emotions can affect your spells but I don't think they are necessary to be a powerful wizard. Dumbledore was already highly successful much before Ariana died.

[speedy3702]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I think the Deathly Hallows was introduced to deal with the theme of death. The legend that possessing all three made you Master of Death and Harry's struggle with it. I don't think the individual objects were as important. Voldemort gave a lot of importance to it though which ended up costing him his life.

Yes, I agree that in general the Deathly Hallows were introduced to deal with the theme of death. I also agree that Voldemort gave too much importance to the Elder Wand. After all, power is not the most important thing in the world. But, for me, this doesn't change the fact that the Elder Wand was indeed immensely powerful. Because this makes Harry's voluntary choice of not using it, even greater.

Or in other words. Not the Elder Wand itself was overhyped. But the general idea of power being the most important thing to achieve. This is, IMO, also the reason why Dumbledore described the Elder Wand as being the "least extraordinary" one of the Deathly Hallows.

[Mulatto]

Originally Posted by decaye23

like the only one who used it in a more powerful way than normal wands was Harry's little Reparo, at the end. Quite unremarkable, the Elder wand was...at least, the way it was written. IMHO.

Voldemort was never in rapport with the wand because he never won it from the rightful owner. I doubt it'd feel special to him just like the wand Harry borrowed from Ron via the Snatcher, felt strange in his hand.

[speedy3702]

Originally Posted by Mulatto

Voldemort was never in rapport with the wand because he never won it from the rightful owner. I doubt it'd feel special to him just like the wand Harry borrowed from Ron via the Snatcher, felt strange in his hand.

If Dumbledore never won the wand regulary from his owner, then Draco and Harry could have never been the owners of the Elder Wand.

So, however Dumbledore won the wand from Grindelwald, I am pretty sure that he did it on a rightful manner.

[Mulatto]

Originally Posted by speedy3702

If Dumbledore never won the wand regulary from his owner, then Draco and Harry could have never been the owners of the Elder Wand.

So, however Dumbledore won the wand from Grindelwald, I am pretty sure that he did it on a rightful manner.

Yea I think that's obvious since he beat Grindelwald in their famous duel. Both knew about this wand and Grindelwald was able to win its allegiance as I'm sure Dumbledore would know how to. Voldemort guessed at the wrong owner when he killed Snape.

Would the Peverells be considered powerful wizards having invented such devices [the Hallows], or were they just ingenious like the Weasley twins? The eldest brother used the wand they invented to settle a grudge so it would seem in his day he was not the most powerful if he did not seek to settle it earlier with his normal wand.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by Mulatto

Would the Peverells be considered powerful wizards having invented such devices [the Hallows], or were they just ingenious like the Weasley twins? The eldest brother used the wand they invented to settle a grudge so it would seem in his day he was not the most powerful if he did not seek to settle it earlier with his normal wand.

I would say that they were powerful wizards. The objects they created required deep understanding of magic and probably a non-trivial amount of power. Likely took years to create as well.

I think the eldest brother requiring the Wand to settle a grudge was just legend. I think he was simply a combative man who got into regular fights.

[speedy3702]

Originally Posted by Mulatto

Would the Peverells be considered powerful wizards having invented such devices [the Hallows], or were they just ingenious like the Weasley twins?

They were very powerful wizards for sure. If it would be a "no big deal" thing, like the things that the Weasley twins created, then you would have seen many other wizards creating so powerful objects like the Hallows. So there is absolutely no doubt for me that they belonged to the absolute elite when it comes to wizarding.

Originally Posted by Mulatto

The eldest brother used the wand they invented to settle a grudge so it would seem in his day he was not the most powerful if he did not seek to settle it earlier with his normal wand.

We don't know this for sure. This could only be part of the myth. Maybe he did that. But it doesn't mean that he didn't had conflicts before. He probably only wanted to try the power of the wand and compare it with a normal one.

[Rew]

I think the most powerful wizards we see in the books (aside from ancient figures like Merlin, the Peverells, etc.) would be first Dumbledore, then second Voldemort. Third would either be Grindelwald, McGonagall, or Shacklebolt. Perhaps Bellatrix.

It's an interesting question as to who would become the most powerful wizard in the next generation. The easy answer seems to be Harry, as he's the chosen one, but I think it'd be Hermione because if nothing else, she would apply herself as no one else (which is how I view Albus in his youth, very similar to Hermione).