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Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #121  
Old February 27th, 2010, 10:21 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
While I agree with you that Dumbledore genuinely believed in the "greater good" ideology - I don't see it as being about muggles & magical people co-existing peacefully. In his letter to Gellert he used phrases such as 'wizard dominance being FOR THE MUGGLES OWN GOOD', 'we have been given power and, yes, that power gives us the right to rule' It seems to me he is, at this point in his life, saying things that Lucius Malfoy, and even Voldermort, would have agreed with most fervently.

Of course with time he grows out of these opinions and ends up very firmly opposed to them but I don’t think we can overlook or dismiss the seriousness of his dalliance with magical supremacist ideology without diminishing the depth JKR chose to give Dumbledore’s character. Personally I would love to know more about the relationship he and Grindelwald
I agree. The point is that Dumbledore really was talking about the subjugation of Muggles - for what he then saw as their own good. For that brief period, he was in sync with Grindelwald's philosophy, not with the philosophy he himself later came to adopt. He was arguing for Wizards dominating Muggles and subjecting Muggles to the will of Wizards.


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  #122  
Old February 27th, 2010, 10:53 pm
sabrinestar  Female.gif sabrinestar is offline
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
I don't believe so. Dumbledore stated that he felt guilt the entire time, during talk of the "greater good", he knew deep down in his heart that it was not right, he at the time just managed to pacify his feelings by feigning excuses. Eventually DD's heart would have won out, whether this would have ment that their friend/relationship would have ended, I'm not sure. In his later years Grindelwald showed remourse for what had happend, so i wouldn't rule out the possibility that Dumbledore might have changed him.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished? Like i stated above, it could have gone another way, instead of assuming that Dumbledore would join the dark fight. If there relationship had flourished, I don't believe that dumbledore would have been able to submerge his actual opinion about what was going on and would have tried to stop Grindelwald much sooner, seeing as he would have had nothing to fear from battling the wand.


Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?
Oh I deffiniatly believe it was his way of trying to make up in the least for all that he had done. I don't recall if Jo had said that the feelings were mutual, if it was an actual romantic relationship, i just remember that Dumbledore did indeed love him. I never thought about it being grindelwalds last way of apoligizing to dumbledore, it was probably guilt.


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  #123  
Old February 28th, 2010, 9:42 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
While I agree with you that Dumbledore genuinely believed in the "greater good" ideology - I don't see it as being about muggles & magical people co-existing peacefully. In his letter to Gellert he used phrases such as 'wizard dominance being FOR THE MUGGLES OWN GOOD', 'we have been given power and, yes, that power gives us the right to rule' It seems to me he is, at this point in his life, saying things that Lucius Malfoy, and even Voldermort, would have agreed with most fervently.

Of course with time he grows out of these opinions and ends up very firmly opposed to them but I don’t think we can overlook or dismiss the seriousness of his dalliance with magical supremacist ideology without diminishing the depth JKR chose to give Dumbledore’s character. Personally I would love to know more about the relationship he and Grindelwald
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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith
I agree. The point is that Dumbledore really was talking about the subjugation of Muggles - for what he then saw as their own good. For that brief period, he was in sync with Grindelwald's philosophy, not with the philosophy he himself later came to adopt. He was arguing for Wizards dominating Muggles and subjecting Muggles to the will of Wizards.
I just read the letter that Dumbledore wrote to Grindelwald. He makes it very clear that the basis ("foundation stone") for their plan was that it would benefit the muggles. It makes sense because muggles would have benefited immensely if wizards could play a part. The ability to do magic puts wizards in a position to help muggles. Much like what we humans do with regard to other creatures. Dumbledore also understood that force should be avoided and must be used only when absolutely necessary.
After the Ariana incident, IMO he realized that deep down even though he knew all along that Grindelwald had no such plans and plainly wanted to be a dictator, he still went along with it. The realization that he was blinded by love had a big impact on him. He probably realized soon after that his plan would not work because muggles would not take well to it and that it would end up being a bloodbath. Not to mention that he'd have to deal with opposition from wizards itself. In short, going ahead with such a plan would lead to more harm than good.
IMO Dumbledore, being an extremely intelligent and powerful wizard who had already done things that made a difference to the wizarding world at such a young age, probably had some sort of idealistic view of the world and thought that with Grindelwald, they could really make it happen.



Last edited by wolfbrother; February 28th, 2010 at 9:50 am.
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  #124  
Old December 18th, 2010, 5:37 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I wanted to reply to something from the Snape Character Analysis thread.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
DH - King's Cross'Grindelwald. You cannot imagine how his ideas caught me, Harry, inflamed me. Muggles forced into subservience. We wizards triumphant. Grindelwald and I, the glorious leaders of the revolution.

'Oh I had a few scruples. I assured my conscience that it would all be for the greater good, and any harm done would be repaid a hundredfold in benefits for wizards. Did I know in my hearts, what Gellert Grindelwald was? I think I did, but I closed my eyes. If the plans we were making came to fruition, all my dreams would come true.'


Muggles forced into subservience; IMO there is nothing good about this.
I wasn't involved in this discussion, but I agree with this. I think Dumbledore would have turned out just as "bad" as Grindelwald if the Ariana-incident hadn't happened. I see both of them as opportunists, young, arrogant, in love with themselves and each other, planning the future of the world as they thought it should be.

And is the idea so bad? I would prefer to have wizards in charge of the world, solving all our problems, ending the need for oil and sorting out global warming, curing AIDS and other diseases, feeding the 3rd World ...but of course wizards aren't perfect people either, as Grindelwald and Voldemort show, and they got just as corrupted as any Muggles who ever had big ideas.

I often wonder whether their plan, which never really gets elaborated, was to find a wizard who would bring Muggles closer to wizards, sort of staging a sort of nonreligious Second Coming, to establish trust (and worship, which is where it gets bad.) and encourage Muggles to let wizards have power.

^ Sort of like in the Merlin miniseries, where Mab wants to use Merlin to make Muggles come back to the Old Ways of Magic, rather than Christianity. Which is odd, because I've only just watched that, but I found many parallels in what my partner and I already made up about Grindelwald and Dumbledore's plans, unaware that it was so similar.

I wonder whether little Tom Riddle was supposed to be that person ...but that's already descending into my conspiracy theory in which Dumbledore never actually gave up on the old plans completely, just decided that Grindewald was too much of a loose canon and he should go it alone.


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  #125  
Old December 24th, 2010, 1:30 am
Durmstrang_Swag  Undisclosed.gif Durmstrang_Swag is offline
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

1. I think so, it was the Ariana incident that broke the pair up, they were ready to go off and conquer the world until Aberforth burst their bubble. What was there to break them up, Dumbledore in love with Grindelwald, Grindelwald enthralled to finally find another equally talented. Their friendship was based in their shared greatness initially and then onto their shared vision of wizarding dominance. Remember Dumbledore does confess to Harry that he was captured by the image of the pair of them as the glorious conquerors and leaders of a wizarding revolution. Also remember how Ariana became how she was, she was tortured by muggles, it was muggles that had destroyed Dumbledore's family by sending his father to Azkaban and his sister to an uncontrollable state and bound him to his home, muggles had ruined the young Dumbledore's life, he fully believed in THEIR vision for the future. Beyond Albus' love for his family, what else could divide him from Gellert Grindelwald?

2. Absolutely, as I said above Dumbledore must have had a hatred of muggles for ruining his early life, I fully believe that he and Grindelwald would have set off to topple all the European ministries of magic. At the end of the day I believe both were far more similar, just Ariana's death triggered Dumbledore to condemn the dark arts and the search for power. Dumbledore believed in their vision and had Ariana's demise not halted him he would have become corrupted by the power of the Dark Arts just as Grindelwald was (Dumbledore confesses his lust for power and power being his largest fault).

3. When I said that Dumbledore and Grindelwald were very similar it extends to the feelings of remorse for what they'd done. Dumbledore had been involved in the death of his sister, or as he feared had been the caster of the curse that killed her and as such rejected the Dark Arts, Grindelwald fled and begun his campaign for wizarding supremacy. But Albus pointed out that he hid what he was doing behind the justification of 'for the greater good', all while being fully aware it would require them to kill the many who would oppose them. Grindelwald also hid what he did behind the same justification (note the other dark wizard who he's compared to LV, never had such a justification for his acts) Grindelwald believed in 'the greater good' so much that he inscribed it on the entrance to Nurmengard (also note he built a prison for his eventual enemies, LV did no such thing), because of this I think Grindelwald like Dumbledore realised that his justification did not justify his actions and his defiance of Voldemort was a way of renouncing the Dark Arts, and opposition to Voldemort.


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  #126  
Old December 24th, 2010, 12:45 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by captive_lolita View Post
I wasn't involved in this discussion, but I agree with this. I think Dumbledore would have turned out just as "bad" as Grindelwald if the Ariana-incident hadn't happened. I see both of them as opportunists, young, arrogant, in love with themselves and each other, planning the future of the world as they thought it should be.
I think Dumbledore would have changed later on, maybe sooner than later, because he changed this time, when Ariana died. Grindelwald never changed even after this, even knowing that keeping to this path he would lose Dumbledore forever. That was the difference between Dumbledore and Grindelwald at the time.

And IMO this was the difference between Snape and Bellatrix for example. Snape changed when Lily was targeted; which makes me feel that he had the potential to change even had Lily not been targeted; the only difference being that he would not have changed in the way he did in the Books, or at that time.

I think this is the difference between a Dark Lord/hardened Death Eater and someone who drifts into such organisations because they have a false idea of the whole thing like Draco, Regulus, Snape and Dumbledore, who either shut their eyes to the evil part, feeling it would somehow be overcome by the good promised by such organisations. They were deluding themselves and they were in a way cheating their good side, but somewhere at the bottom of their hearts was something inherently good that would wake up sooner rather than later and make them see that the evil these people perpetrated can never be over shadowed by the good that these organisations claimed to do.

Quote:
And is the idea so bad? I would prefer to have wizards in charge of the world, solving all our problems, ending the need for oil and sorting out global warming, curing AIDS and other diseases, feeding the 3rd World ...but of course wizards aren't perfect people either, as Grindelwald and Voldemort show, and they got just as corrupted as any Muggles who ever had big ideas.
I would not vote for this idea. The question is whether we want our thinking/solving be done for us and I feel no; they should not be. I don't mind wizards solving our problems, but only if I want them to. I want to be able to make that choice, every time.

Quote:
I often wonder whether their plan, which never really gets elaborated, was to find a wizard who would bring Muggles closer to wizards, sort of staging a sort of nonreligious Second Coming, to establish trust (and worship, which is where it gets bad.) and encourage Muggles to let wizards have power.
Their plan was what Grindelwald eventually went on to do, alone. Killing hundreds of muggles; a wizard equivalent of Hitler, I think.


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  #127  
Old December 24th, 2010, 1:21 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

"The problem is not whether machines think, but whether men do." - B.F. Skinner

I am using this quote to illustrate that wizards are men just like Muggles, and to show that it is very dangerous to rely on others to think for us.


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  #128  
Old December 26th, 2010, 5:51 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by captive_lolita View Post
But JKR decided to represent the only homosexual relationship in her entire series as ending very badly.
The relationship may have ended badly at the time, but I think there was something between them which lasted forever. They may not have been together, living as a couple happily and all that, nevertheless what they shared and felt was powerful IMO, shown by Dumbledore's words to Harry, and Grindelwald's actions to Voldemort before he died. While yes, I agree this relationship did not have what other relationships in the Books had like romance, marriage, I think it still had something potent that made it last forever and something positive for Grindelwald to feel remorse and protect Dumbledore even after he died.

DH - King's Cross'They say he showed remorse in later years, alone in his cell ....

Perhaps his lie to Voldemort was his attempt to make amends .... to prevent Voldemort from taking the Hallow ...'

'...or maybe from breaking into your tomb?' suggested Harry and Dumbledore dabbed his eyes.


Grindelwald lost to Dumbledore with the Elder Wand while fighting a duel to the death as it were; Rita Skeeter says Grindelwald did not fight to his potential, while others say that the war between them was an awe inspiring one. Perhaps Grindelwald did not fight to his potential because he could not fight Dumbledore.

I feel they had a great romance going on between them, even when they were far apart and even when they were enemies. JMO.


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  #129  
Old December 26th, 2010, 5:57 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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The relationship may have ended badly at the time, but I think there was something between them which lasted forever. They may not have been together, living as a couple happily and all that, nevertheless what they shared and felt was powerful IMO, shown by Dumbledore's words to Harry, and Grindelwald's actions to Voldemort before he died. While yes, I agree this relationship did not have what other relationships in the Books had like romance, marriage, I think it still had something potent that made it last forever and something positive for Grindelwald to feel remorse and protect Dumbledore even after he died.

DH - King's Cross'They say he showed remorse in later years, alone in his cell ....

Perhaps his lie to Voldemort was his attempt to make amends .... to prevent Voldemort from taking the Hallow ...'

'...or maybe from breaking into your tomb?' suggested Harry and Dumbledore dabbed his eyes.


Grindelwald lost to Dumbledore with the Elder Wand while fighting a duel to the death as it were; Rita Skeeter says Grindelwald did not fight to his potential, while others say that the war between them was an awe inspiring one. Perhaps Grindelwald did not fight to his potential because he could not fight Dumbledore.

I feel they had a great romance going on between them, even when they were far apart and even when they were enemies. JMO.
I don't think so. There's no canonical evidence to show that Grindelwald was homosexual, that if he was, he returned Dumbledore's feelings, or that they developed such a powerful relationship in, I believe, 3 months, that neither could shake it for the rest of their lives.


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  #130  
Old December 26th, 2010, 6:22 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I don't think so. There's no canonical evidence to show that Grindelwald was homosexual, that if he was, he returned Dumbledore's feelings, or that they developed such a powerful relationship in, I believe, 3 months, that neither could shake it for the rest of their lives.
Grindelwald may not have been specified as homosexual in the Books; Dumbledore was and he had some intense feelings for Grindelwald IMO and I think they were returned in equal measure (for which I agree I have no specific canon except inferring from Dumbledore's words and actions). If they did not share anything romantic between them I don't think Dumbledore would have have put off fighting Grindelwald for some time, unable to face him, and neither would he have remained silent when Harry suggested that Grindelwald did not want Dumbledore's tomb broken into. That's pretty personal and peaks of a relationship between them. I think there was more between them than their apparent friendship, and in the three months they had fallen deeply in love, something that stayed with them all through. Though I agree I don't have explicit canon for what I say.


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  #131  
Old December 26th, 2010, 6:51 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Grindelwald may not have been specified as homosexual in the Books; Dumbledore was and he had some intense feelings for Grindelwald IMO and I think they were returned in equal measure (for which I agree I have no specific canon except inferring from Dumbledore's words and actions). If they did not share anything romantic between them I don't think Dumbledore would have have put off fighting Grindelwald for some time, unable to face him, and neither would he have remained silent when Harry suggested that Grindelwald did not want Dumbledore's tomb broken into. That's pretty personal and peaks of a relationship between them. I think there was more between them than their apparent friendship, and in the three months they had fallen deeply in love, something that stayed with them all through. Though I agree I don't have explicit canon for what I say.
Mightn't it just be that he was showing remorse for his own part in how Dumbledore's sister died? Or, if he had truly turned from the evil that filled him earlier on in his life, just a wish against evil? I think Dumbledore put off fighting Grindelwald because he held himself somewhat responsible for Grindelwald's ascent, or that he just didn't want to be associated with him. I don't think it was out of love.


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  #132  
Old December 27th, 2010, 6:30 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Mightn't it just be that he was showing remorse for his own part in how Dumbledore's sister died? Or, if he had truly turned from the evil that filled him earlier on in his life, just a wish against evil? I think Dumbledore put off fighting Grindelwald because he held himself somewhat responsible for Grindelwald's ascent, or that he just didn't want to be associated with him. I don't think it was out of love.
He was showing remorse for his sister too and for his own part in the whole mess that lead to her death; but he was also crying for what could have been; for the remorse that came too late for both of them and for the way Grindelwald left him at the worst moment of his life. While it is not explicitly mentioned that Dumbledore and Grindelwald had an affair in the three months they were together and that it was love, I think they did have a relationship that went beyond the boundaries of friendship and it was something that affected them deeply; Dumbledore from day one and Grindelwald once he was placed in Nuremgard; perhaps before but at that time he refused to acknowledge it or give in to it IMO.


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  #133  
Old December 27th, 2010, 12:12 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Could be. I don't see any canonical evidence, and thus I see it as simply a redemption of his earlier intentions. I just don't think there's enough to read that sort of groundbreaking conclusion, but I could be incorrect.


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  #134  
Old December 27th, 2010, 5:46 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Grindelwald may not have been specified as homosexual in the Books; Dumbledore was and he had some intense feelings for Grindelwald IMO and I think they were returned in equal measure (for which I agree I have no specific canon except inferring from Dumbledore's words and actions). If they did not share anything romantic between them I don't think Dumbledore would have have put off fighting Grindelwald for some time, unable to face him, and neither would he have remained silent when Harry suggested that Grindelwald did not want Dumbledore's tomb broken into. That's pretty personal and peaks of a relationship between them. I think there was more between them than their apparent friendship, and in the three months they had fallen deeply in love, something that stayed with them all through. Though I agree I don't have explicit canon for what I say.
I'm not sure Grindelwald returned Dumbledore's feelings. I believe Jo mentioned that Grindelwald was aware of those feelings and he used it to his advantage to an extent.

Whether Grindelwald returned Dumbledore's feelings is irrelevant to Dumbledore's dealings with him. Love does not work that way (not the healthy kind anyway). Dumbledore had strong feelings for him and that is what IMO dictated all his actions with regard to him.

There was undoubtedly a strong connection between the two when they met. I'd say that Albus was the first and only friend, a true equal, that Gellert ever had. I think Grindelwald valued and treasured it during his time at Nurmengard.


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  #135  
Old July 23rd, 2011, 8:44 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?

Dumbledore was in love with Grindelwald and the two shared a belief in their superiority and the "greater good. " Ariana's death was a wake up call to DD - letting him know he was on the wrong path. Had she not have died, DD would have not have moved away from that relationship and that shared view.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?

Certainly. DD enjoyed power, including wanting to collect the hallows at one point. Power can be used for benefit or harm, and GG's focus was on world domination, and DD thought the two of them were talented enough to run everything. Many years later, DD realized that power was corrupting, esp. for him. While he was willing to be the "head general" in the war against Voldemort, he had learned that others are also equally important, and their feelings have value as well, even if they see things differently from him.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?

I'm thinking it was remorse. GG, unlike Voldemort, seemed to have the ability to love, at least at one point in time, and I think he grew to regret his actions and was acting because of his guilt.


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  #136  
Old July 23rd, 2011, 9:43 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
The relationship may have ended badly at the time, but I think there was something between them which lasted forever. They may not have been together, living as a couple happily and all that, nevertheless what they shared and felt was powerful IMO, shown by Dumbledore's words to Harry, and Grindelwald's actions to Voldemort before he died. While yes, I agree this relationship did not have what other relationships in the Books had like romance, marriage, I think it still had something potent that made it last forever and something positive for Grindelwald to feel remorse and protect Dumbledore even after he died.

DH - King's Cross'They say he showed remorse in later years, alone in his cell ....

Perhaps his lie to Voldemort was his attempt to make amends .... to prevent Voldemort from taking the Hallow ...'

'...or maybe from breaking into your tomb?' suggested Harry and Dumbledore dabbed his eyes.


Grindelwald lost to Dumbledore with the Elder Wand while fighting a duel to the death as it were; Rita Skeeter says Grindelwald did not fight to his potential, while others say that the war between them was an awe inspiring one. Perhaps Grindelwald did not fight to his potential because he could not fight Dumbledore.

I feel they had a great romance going on between them, even when they were far apart and even when they were enemies. JMO.
These are my thoughts precisely. I think the series has such a strong theme about the strength of love that it was that strength that meant that they couldn't face each other for so long and fought weakly when they did.

In the scene quoted above, IMO those tears are clearly tears mourning lost love. I know it's not strictly canon, but it just the emotion I instantly sensed.


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