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The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore



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  #1  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:23 pm
Celestrin  Female.gif Celestrin is offline
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The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I know there is already a "how do you feel about him now" thread out there... but this is a little more sinister, and more detailed.

Many CoS'ers have speculated that Dumbledore was savvy enough to know exactly what was happening, or being laid in wait, for Harry at every turn. Yet still we waited to find out if Albus Dumbledore was the ultimate puppet master.

Did he know about Quirrell-mort and send and 11 year old Harry after him, did he know about Barty Crouch Junior and the plan in the cemetery? Many of us assumed we would know Dumbledore better at the end of the series but I submit Jo has left us with only a vague clue to how calculating the headmaster really is.

And so I put it to the people. Is Dumbledore the ultimate planer, the spinner of webs, the keeper of secrets?

IMO he is. That little "keep and eye on Quirrell" comment in DH settled it for me, though I know it is thin. I'm convinced that Dumbledore used Harry and Snape to achieve the ends he saw fit.

That does not mean I hate Dumbledore, or that his plan was ineffective (as it obviously did what he wanted), but it does mean that I look at the Headmaster in a completely different way.


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  #2  
Old July 25th, 2007, 5:15 am
Moldywart  Undisclosed.gif Moldywart is offline
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Celestrin View Post
I know there is already a "how do you feel about him now" thread out there... but this is a little more sinister, and more detailed.

Many CoS'ers have speculated that Dumbles was savvy enough to know exactly what was happening, or being laid in wait, for Harry at every turn. Yet still we waited to find out if Albus Dumbledore was the ultimate puppet master.

Did he know about Quirrell-mort and send and 11 year old Harry after him, did he know about Barty Crouch Junior and the plan in the cemetery? Many of us assumed we would know Dumbles better at the end of the series but I submit Jo has left us with only a vague clue to how calculating the headmaster really is.

And so I put it to the people. Is Dumbledore the ultimate planer, the spinner of webs, the keeper of secrets?

IMO he is. That little "keep and eye on Quirrell" comment in DH settled it for me, though I know it is thin. I'm convinced that Dumbles used Harry and Snape to achieve the ends he saw fit.

That does not mean I hate Dumbeldore, or that his plan was ineffective (as it obviously did what he wanted), but it does mean that I look at the Headmaster in a completely different way.


The "keep an eye on Quirrell" comment shows that DD was the ultimate planner, but not everything went according to plan. He would've never allowed Draco to get Death Eaters in to the school if he thought Draco would succeed. He didn't want anyone to die unnecessarily. I don't think he knew about Imposter Moody. He seemed pretty shocked when he found out that it was really Barty Crouch Jr. He asked questions to Imposter Moody under veritaserum that he wouldn't have asked had he already known the answers.

Also, you have to figure that the plan changed. He didn't expect VM to use Harry's blood, and he didn't know about the horcruxes until CoS and VM's little speech in the graveyard. His plan even backfired regarding the Elder Wand, but in Harry's favor.

Even though the plan changed, he was a master planner. His foresight into what he left the trio was amazing. He knew that Ron would need the deluminator and that Hermione was clever enough to figure out the Hallows story without giving away too much to the Ministry. It makes me wonder about his conversation with Harry in his office at the end of OotP. He didn't want to tell Harry the truth, but maybe that was all part of his master plan...to tell him everything he needed to know at that point.


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Old July 27th, 2007, 2:11 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I think Dumbledore was the ultimate planner, but he couldn't always foresee the problems that ended up occurring, or other things that might interfere with his plans. I don't think he knew exactly that Quirrell had Voldemort sticking out the back of his head, but he definately knew that he was up to something. Dumbledore is usually good at guessing things, but some things you just can't ever imagine guessing correctly.


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Old July 27th, 2007, 2:20 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

Whats the line from HBP? "I make mistakes too, and being brighter than most people, my mistakes are bigger than most peoples'." (Or something like that.)

He made many mistakes, and admits to them. Allowing Harry to face Quirrell. Missing that Moody was replaced with Crouch. Allowing Harry to think Sirius was in danger at the Ministry. Destroying his arm, and eventually himslef with the resurrection stone. Allowing Draco enough fredom to repair the Death Eaters into the school. None of these were planned events.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 9:35 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry everything......what if it fell into enemy hands?


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Old August 7th, 2007, 10:03 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Wright1771 View Post
Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry everything......what if it fell into enemy hands?
Which he managed to do with ever-increasing regularity...

The remark about Quirrel showed that he really did know what was happening in the school all the time which many people doubted because of having Voldemort in the school for a year. But he didn't expect Harry to go after him when he did i.e. when Dumbledore was out of the school and couldn't keep an eye on him. When Hermione was telling Harry what happened to them she said something along the lines of "and Dumbledore said 'Harry's gone after him already, hasn't he?' "

I think this shows that he wasn't using Harry to his own ends. Harry was pleased that he thought Dumbledore had given him a chance to basicially have a go at Voldemort.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 11:12 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I totally agree with you about seeing Dumbledore in a different light after DH. To me he was always someone who knew more than he let on - the thing that changed for me was finding out just how close Dumbledore came to becoming a dark wizard - how tempted he was by the Hallows, and how close he came before realising that his weakness was his desire for power.
However, I think that although Dumbledore has his own plans and schemes, his puppet-mastery involves simply equiping people (Harry, Snape) with the tools and information they need. He takes great pains to explain to Harry the difference between the prophecy meaning you have to do something and the prophecy showing what it is inevitable you will choose, and as Harry understands, this is the difference between walking into the arena with your head held high, and being dragged in to fight to the death against your will. I think that this section was included in book 5 because JKR intended us to understand Dumbledore's "manipulations" rather in the same way. I, therefore, see him less as a puppet master, and more as a computer programmer, who set the system up at the beginning, giving his characters the tools they needed, before letting them play out the inevitable.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 11:23 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I really think Dumbloder was a planner, but a lot of things that happened, like Quirrellmort (he just suspected Quirell for acting strange), the fake moody and fake cup, where not already known by Dumbledore. It ****** me a bit that Dumbledore didn't told Harry enogh along the years, and kept so much to himself, which it's Dumblodreish if you look at it after reading DH.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 11:31 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Moldywart View Post
The "keep an eye on Quirrell" comment shows that DD was the ultimate planner, but not everything went according to plan. He would've never allowed Draco to get Death Eaters in to the school if he thought Draco would succeed. He didn't want anyone to die unnecessarily. I don't think he knew about Imposter Moody. He seemed pretty shocked when he found out that it was really Barty Crouch Jr. He asked questions to Imposter Moody under veritaserum that he wouldn't have asked had he already known the answers.
I agree. Also, could you interpret the "gleam of triumph" as representative of the fact that Dumbledore in fact expected Voldemort to use Harry's blood? Tenuous, but as you in my opinion correctly surmised, Dumbledore was the "master planner..."


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Old August 7th, 2007, 11:53 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I've always thought of Dumbledore as the omniscient planner. I even went so far as to theorize that Dumbledore set up the Potters to ensure that the prophecy would come to fruition and ensure that there was a savior for the wizarding world.


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Old August 8th, 2007, 12:26 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Hardyhardnut View Post
I agree. Also, could you interpret the "gleam of triumph" as representative of the fact that Dumbledore in fact expected Voldemort to use Harry's blood? Tenuous, but as you in my opinion correctly surmised, Dumbledore was the "master planner..."
I'm more inclined to think that it was because Dumbledore realized what Voldemort's using Harry's blood would result in, not because he expected Voldemort to use Harry's blood.


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Old August 8th, 2007, 12:26 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I truly hate dumbledore now. From the word go he saw Harry as nothing more than a means to an end to defeat Voldemort, and, even when Harry was only 11 years old, he allowed him to face off against the greatest dark wizard that ever lived. To train him up? To see if the prophecy was true? Whatever the reason, this throws Dumbledore in a completely new light.


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Old August 8th, 2007, 12:57 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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I truly hate dumbledore now. From the word go he saw Harry as nothing more than a means to an end to defeat Voldemort, and, even when Harry was only 11 years old, he allowed him to face off against the greatest dark wizard that ever lived. To train him up? To see if the prophecy was true? Whatever the reason, this throws Dumbledore in a completely new light.
I don't think Dumbledore is nearly as horrible as Rita Skeeter makes him seem. I think that Dumbledore had some horrible choices to make, and he did the best he could under the circumstances. And, I think he really did love Harry, but he couldn't tell Harry everything or all of his plans would go wrong. Harry really had to believe that he was going to die in order to live


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Old August 8th, 2007, 1:08 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by YellowPoofBall View Post
I've always thought of Dumbledore as the omniscient planner. I even went so far as to theorize that Dumbledore set up the Potters to ensure that the prophecy would come to fruition and ensure that there was a savior for the wizarding world.
I was half-afraid that something like this would be revealed about Dumbledore in the end. Like, I thought we were going to find out that the whole prophecy was staged because Dumbledore saw it as the only way for Voldemort to be defeated. Because really, Voldemort brought about his own undoing - he made that prophecy come true, and that seems like something Dumbledore would foresee. And he could have set up the Potters like you said.

I'm glad this wasn't the case in the real story, though. That would've been a little to Dark!Dumbledore for me .


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Old August 27th, 2007, 1:32 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

I loved dumbledore, he was the ultimate schemer, he's kind of like Voldemort, but on the good side instead. Still, he's awesome.


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Old August 27th, 2007, 6:13 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

DD didn't set Harry up to die, LV did. DD, being the ultimate strategist, figured things out - his 'guesses', which were mostly right, were about what LV would do. LV selected HP as his nemesis from the time of the prophecy, and gave him his mark, a visible scar to mark him as his 'equal'.

At each stage of the series, DD read what he could from what HP told him and tried to predict LV's next move. Calling DD a liar makes it seem like he was directing LV as well, and that is definitely not the case.

LV, by using what he knew of the prophecy, selected Harry to be his enemy, and set about the way(s) he would destroy his nemesis. LV seemed to feel that only Harry would be able to destroy him. (true or not) LV as we know tried to destroy Harry at age 15 mos. - now there's a real enemy for you! What toddler would possibly have the ability to destroy anyone? To me this makes for a desperate LV or a cowardly one.

DD didn't know exactly what it would take for LV to regain his body (also strength) to be back in the battle, so he protected Harry with the blood charm so LV couldn't kill Harry in the second attempt. When Harry was 11, DD could take Harry into Hogwarts and begin more serious training for him to make him as ready as possible to face this powerful enemy. He acted as a surrogate father/mentor to Harry, not a puppetmaster. He taught Harry as best he could under the circumstances. He gave Harry as much info as he felt Harry could handle, and as much help as he could to intervene.

Calling DD a liar or a puppetmaster as others have, negates his genius at predictions of LV, and strategies to get around LV. Through his benevolent strategies, and caring of Harry, he enabled Harry to live, even if he didn't or couldn't save himself. Was he flawed, sure! Was he power-driven and on a mission of his own, NO! Give DD his due - he earned it, surely as much as Snape did.

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Old August 27th, 2007, 8:10 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

Dumbledore had an idea what the big picture looked like and tried to prepare Harry for it, but he also tried preparing Harry for a life afterwards. He could have taken baby Harry and raised him from birth as the weapon to destroy Voldemort, but he didn't, he tried to give Harry a life, insulate him as much as possible, yet still prepare him for what was likely to come. God guy.


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Old August 27th, 2007, 8:17 am
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by dobbysocks View Post
I truly hate dumbledore now. From the word go he saw Harry as nothing more than a means to an end to defeat Voldemort, and, even when Harry was only 11 years old, he allowed him to face off against the greatest dark wizard that ever lived. To train him up? To see if the prophecy was true? Whatever the reason, this throws Dumbledore in a completely new light.
God I love you!!!!!!!!!! You summed it up real quick!!!!!!


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Old August 27th, 2007, 12:58 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by HPGramp View Post
Dumbledore had an idea what the big picture looked like and tried to prepare Harry for it, but he also tried preparing Harry for a life afterwards. He could have taken baby Harry and raised him from birth as the weapon to destroy Voldemort, but he didn't, he tried to give Harry a life, insulate him as much as possible, yet still prepare him for what was likely to come. God guy.
I agree with this Dumbledore did realise what Harry was getting into, and I believe he truly did care for Harry. Even though it appears like Dumbledore was just using him to defeat Voldermort, he believed in Harry, and out of every single person in the wizarding world, I think Dumbledore was one of those people that truly 100% believed in Harry.


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Old August 27th, 2007, 2:10 pm
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Re: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

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Originally Posted by Rell View Post
I don't think Dumbledore is nearly as horrible as Rita Skeeter makes him seem. I think that Dumbledore had some horrible choices to make, and he did the best he could under the circumstances. And, I think he really did love Harry, but he couldn't tell Harry everything or all of his plans would go wrong. Harry really had to believe that he was going to die in order to live
Exactly the way I feel. He had to face a lot of dilemmas and he truly wanted to do good. He may have made some mistakes, but he generally had the world's best interest at heart. If he had told Harry, there was a strong possibility that things would turn out differently, with Harry not really realizing the seriousness of the situation, how things really are and have to be. So, he had to do what he did. I really do not like him less now, but maybe even more. He had it all planned.


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