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So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?



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  #21  
Old July 27th, 2007, 12:08 pm
Impossamole  Female.gif Impossamole is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Original Plan for Harry

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraBlight View Post
Two more points to consider:
  • The Prophecy states that Harry is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord". With all due caution, this to me still sounds like Harry would have to be the one in the final battle, just destroying Horcruxes and then committing suicide wouldn't really have warranted the term "vanquish" IMO.
  • Dumbledore didn't mean to die, as far as I can tell from Snape's memory sequence, he merely accepted the fact that he would die from the curse upon the ring and used his inevitable death for something useful, but being hit by the curse was unintentional. He may well have kept Harry in the dark about the Horcruxes and instead gone after all of them himself if he hadn't had this (eventually) fatal accident.
On your first point, i always took this to mean that the child Voldemort tried to kill would automatically have the power to kill him because he had marked him as his equal I agree that the prophecy made it clear that Harry would be the one in the final battle. The prophecy didn't give it's definition of vanquish however so i guess that's left up to everyone's own ideas Personally i think it meant that Harry would be the one who brought about Voldemorts downfall, even if it was by effectively committing suicide.

On your second point, i definitely think that Dumbledore intended to find and destroy the Horcruxes himself. It is, after all, only after he learns that he hasn't got long to live that he tells Harry about them.


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  #22  
Old July 27th, 2007, 3:44 pm
voldefeu  Undisclosed.gif voldefeu is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Original Plan for Harry

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Originally Posted by Alter_joe View Post
It is not true, that Dumbledore only found out about the Horecruxes in Harry's 2nd year. He knew, that LV had made so much as a Horcrux. He did not know the number of them, though.

To Dumbledore's plan with Harry:

First:The gleam of triumph after Harry tells Dumbledore, that LV used his blood to regain a body, tells me (now that I know the whole story, of course), that he knew then, that Harry could not die, as long as LV was alive, because his blood was in LV's veins. So he knew, that even if LV managed to kill Harry in the final showdown, he would not really die, as long as LV lived.

Second: I believe, that Dumbledore wanted Harry to posess all hallows in the end. And he wanted him to understand. He wanted Harry to be the conqueror of death, so that he could choose to go back and finish LV off. That would have meant, that Harry must be the master of the eldar wand. And so he wanted Snape to be its master before Harry. Harry himself was intended to overpower Snape, when they met after Dumbledores death. That would have been possible, because Snape would not have wanted to hurt Harry, but Harry would have wanted to hurt Snape.
Sounds good. So to put it all in perspective,

When Dumbledore heard about Riddle asking about horcruxes, he suspected Riddle would experiment with his soul. He couldn't confirm it though, but he removed all those books from the library anyway, hoping that no other student will follow down that dark path.

In Harry's second year, Dumbledore's suspicions are confirmed. Since Dumbledore has heard the first prophecy, he figures that a piece of Voldemort's soul has latched onto Harry too, because harry had certain characteristics such as being able to speak parseltongue.

Dumbledore realises that Harry must die for Voldemort to be completely destroyed. But he also realises that with so many other murders, Voldemort may have created many more horcruxes. Since he has not gotten hold of Slughorn's memory, he has no idea how many. However, he knows that he has to destroy the rest of them before Harry meets Voldemort or Harry's death would be in vain. Thus, he knows that the prophecy holds true, that they would meet in the final battle.

In GoF, Dumbledore eyes twinkle with triumph, knowing that Voldemort has taken Harry's blood. Now he realises that Harry may not have to die after all.

Dumbledore sets in store a plan for Harry to have something extra over Voldemort. Since both Voldemort and Harry have the blood enchantment, Dumbledore decides that only the Master of the Elder Wand casting AK can kill Voldemort (as it would be powerful enough to bypass the enchantment). It wouldn't be a problem since he was the master of the wand, and could let Harry disarm him anytime. In the meantime, he starts out on his quest to locate and destroy the horcruxes (while still juggling his duties as Headmaster and Head of OoTP, thus the slow process.)

Dumbledore makes a mistake by putting on Marvolo's Ring, pronouncing his own death sentence. He decides to let Harry in on the quest to destroy the horcruxes. In the middle of HBP, he tasks Harry to get the memory from Slughorn to find out how many horcruxes Voldemort might have created, besides the one on Harry. He also intends to pass the mastery of the wand to Snape, (by getting Snape to kill him) so that Snape would then pass the mastery to Harry later. (Voldemort 'killed' Harry in the forest and did not gain mastery because Harry did not die.)

Before Dumbledore died, he put Harry, Ron and Hermione on the path to find the Hallows, but I don't reckon to find all three and conquer death. Personally, I thought he set them on the quest so as to simply discover the significance of the Elder Wand/wandlore etc.

Anyway, Snape does not gain mastery because Draco disarms Dumbledore before Snape can kill Dumbledore. But the accidental turn of events does not hurt Dumbledore's eventual plans in the end, because Harry had disarmed Draco previously and became the master of the Elder Wand.


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  #23  
Old July 27th, 2007, 4:18 pm
Alektra  Female.gif Alektra is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Original Plan for Harry

Oh! this thread is a gem! Its good to see so many thoughtful posts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter_joe View Post
And so he wanted Snape to be its master before Harry. Harry himself was intended to overpower Snape, when they met after Dumbledores death. That would have been possible, because Snape would not have wanted to hurt Harry, but Harry would have wanted to hurt Snape.
Hmm. I don't think he wanted Snape to own the wand, just to have it. The problem I have is with the conflicting statements. In Kings Cross Dumbledore agrees that it was his intention for Snape to "end up" with the wand. Then, in the final battle, Harry tells Voldemort that Dumbledore intended to die its last master.

From a story standpoint, at the stage Dumbledore makes mention of Snape and the Elder Wand, Rowling has good reason to mislead us - I am sure she wanted us to think that Snape was the true owner, to make the revelation at the end that Harry was all the more dramatic. Whereas at the end in the final showdown, there is no longer a need for us to be mislead. Therefore I must conclude that the second statement is more likely to be accurate.

Add to this that the word "end up with" is used, not "true owner", seems very deliberate to me. So I have to think that Dumbledore must have wanted Snape to physically have the thing, but not own it. But, I cannot for the life of me figure out why, since it is tantamount to a death sentence for Snape.

From Dumbledore's perspective, dying as the wands last master was the safest thing to do. He knew that Voldemort would go after the wand, and so long as a true master lived, there would always be a chance that Voldemort could get it himself. This seems a very heavy chance to be taking.

So given the sureness of Dumbledore's hunch that LV would go after the wand, it seems logical and very Dumbleodre-ish to think that he intended all along for LV to have the wand, but not be it's ture master. This would be easier than trying to hide the thing, and would give Harry a great advantage at the end, in terms of Voldemort using a wand that wouldn't give him very good results.

Add to this the inexplicably irrelevant knowledge that Harrys pheonix hair wand had special powers against Voldemort and I think it seems likely that after GOF, Dumbledore hoped that in the final battle, Harry's lack of skill would be made up for by the wands. Harry would have an advantage with the Phoenix hair, and LV a disadvantage from not really owning his wand.

Of course that plan went wrong not only in Draco getting mastery, but in Hermione breaking Harry's wand by accident. But this part of the plan seems likely to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter_joe View Post
Would he have died along with Harry, because he killed a part of his own soul? Would he have lived on and with Harry, because Harry's blood was in his veins? Would Harry have become a kind of Vapor-Harry? Could he have returned to a body (maybe even his own)?
Well to understand this, you have to understand the difference between how Harrys blood worked and how Horcruxes work.

I think we can safely assume that three things happen when a regular person dies in Potterverse: 1: the body dies 2: the soul is ejected for freed from the body 3: the connection between the body and soul is severed.

Think of Horcruxes like tent pegs, with the main soul as the tent. So, when Voldemorts body died, and its connection to the soul was severed, it was unable to go "on" as it was anchored to the earthly plane. Hence his existance as "less than the meanest ghost".

Now, think of Lily's protection in Voldemort as the equivalent of Harrys body. So, when Harry dies, the soul gets ejected, but his "body" does not die because it "lives" in Voldemort. Because of this, the connection between the body and the soul is NOT severed, as would normally happen.

Harry's blood in Voldemort is irrelevant in terms of Voldmort's mortality. His mortality is dependant on the Horcruxes, and at the moment he cast the AK in the forest, he had two still - Harry and Nagini.

Hope that helps a bit.


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  #24  
Old July 27th, 2007, 5:46 pm
wizardswheezes  Female.gif wizardswheezes is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Original Plan for Harry

Ok, a couple of thoughts and questions...!

1) After GoF, Dumbledore knew that the blood bond would tether Harry to life. While Voldemort was alive, Harry would always have the choice to stay alive too. This means that, once all the Horcruxes were destroyed and Voldemort was mortal, he would have had no chance against Harry. Is that correct?

2) Why did Dumbledore lead Harry to the hallows at all? If the blood bond ensured Harry couldn't be killed by Voldemort, then what additional use did the hallows have?

As others have suggested, the search for the hallows were a rite of passage for Harry. They taught him that being 'master of death' meant accepting death and protecting the living rather than becoming immortal. It was also important that he made these decisions himself, showing his maturity and wisdom.

But what practical use did the hallows have in Dumbledore's plan, particularly as he didn't intend Harry to get true ownership of the Elder wand? Maybe it was simply that he wanted Harry to understand the hallows and the arrogance of the quest for them, thus helping him accept his own death... And also the resurrection stone was important as a final comfort to Harry before his sacrifice....

I still feel like I'm missing something though!



Last edited by wizardswheezes; July 27th, 2007 at 5:51 pm.
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  #25  
Old July 27th, 2007, 6:54 pm
DD7  Male.gif DD7 is offline
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So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

I believe harry survived in the forest due to the blood bond (which incidently acts like a horcrux really, though not evily made) AND also due to him being master of death (note: though he dropped the ring i dont believe you necceseraly need to be in possession of all 3 to be master of death-he 'owned' the ring and that was enough).

I also believe harry being master of the elder wand caused voldemorts downfall as the wand wouldnt attack its master causing the expelliarmus spell to overpower the AK kill him (as he had no horcruxes left).

Thus in this knowledge I believe these are the 2 key questions and haven't really been addressed properly in other threads:

1. If harry being master of the elder wand caused voldemorts downfall and dumbledore intended the wand to die with him, then we must assume dumbledore envisaged another method of defeat for voldemort, what???

2. However, though dumbledore intended the elder wand to die with him, we also know that he directed harry to the hallows (giving him the ring and hermione the book with that symbol in it in his will), why???

Thoughts?


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  #26  
Old July 27th, 2007, 7:13 pm
DD7  Male.gif DD7 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Original Plan for Harry

I totaly agree with you. Harry couldnt be killed while voldemort was alive. however, though harry couldnt be killed, even if voldi had no horcruxes, how was harry to kill voldemort, surely he isnt skilled enough.

in addition, if dumbledore originally intended harry to die (before GoF) then the killing of harry would hopefully (if all went to plan) remove voldi's 1 remaining horcrux, but what then? who would then be the one to kill voldemort and how?


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  #27  
Old July 27th, 2007, 11:18 pm
Rezallia  Female.gif Rezallia is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Original Plan for Harry

I've just had a semi-revelation. Well, Dumbledore gave Harry the clues about the Hallows to get him ready for death, to accept it. I think he wanted to let the wand pass into legend through his dying without being defeated; I don't think he wanted anyone to have the elder wand.

Maybe Harry's death, originally--perhaps before the blood sacrifice-- was to serve more than one purpose. Harry would sacrifice himself, expelling the Horcrux AND giving blood protection to everyone he had died for. But, anyway, doing so, Harry made Voldemort powerless against the people he was trying to rule.

This would allow just about anyone to kill him, wouldn't it? Voldemort was already defeated before the second duel because, since he didn't possess the elder wand, he was beatable. (Do you think, despite the blood protection, that if Voldemort had possessed the elder wand, he could have beaten those protected? Would they have cancelled each other out?) It was imperative that Harry have the wand because he didn't have the protection, but could someone else have done killed Voldemort with a normal wand?

Dumbledore was expecting to finish Voldemort off himself, I suppose. And since he had died, he assigned Snape the task, wanting him to have the elder wand-- for safekeeping and employment against Voldemort.

(This is what is amazing about DH-- so interesting and confusing! A challenge!)

The real battle had ended, definitely, before the second duel had even begun. It was just a matter of house-cleaning after that!


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  #28  
Old July 27th, 2007, 11:34 pm
padfootandme  Female.gif padfootandme is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Original Plan for Harry

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Originally Posted by CE49 View Post
Snape wouldn't have come into possession of the Elder Wand even if Draco hadn't disarmed Dumbledore because Snape never defeated Dumbledore. Dumbledore planned the death himself and Snape did it on Dumbledore's orders. So the mastery of the Elder Wand would have died with Dumbledore.
Even if the mastery of the Elder Wand had not died with Dumbledore and the power went to Snape, maybe Dumbledore counted on Harry's use of "Expelliarmus" to disarm Snape and come into control of the wand.


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  #29  
Old July 28th, 2007, 12:18 am
padfootandme  Female.gif padfootandme is offline
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

1. If harry being master of the elder wand caused voldemorts downfall and dumbledore intended the wand to die with him, then we must assume dumbledore envisaged another method of defeat for voldemort, what???
Maybe he just saw Harry fighting Voldemort, but Harry found a way to beat him without his own curses. I think it would have been interesting if Harry let a Boggart in... what would Voldemort have seen/done?

2. However, though dumbledore intended the elder wand to die with him, we also know that he directed harry to the hallows (giving him the ring and hermione the book with that symbol in it in his will), why???
Maybe he knew that Voldemort would be after the wand, and he wanted Harry to find out why, especially since Harry owned 2 of the 3 Hallows. Plus, giving Harry the stone allowed him the company of his parents, Sirius, and Lupin when he walked to his "death".


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  #30  
Old July 28th, 2007, 2:04 am
jaan  Male.gif jaan is offline
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DD7 View Post
I believe harry survived in the forest due to the blood bond (which incidently acts like a horcrux really, though not evily made)
This isn't quite accurate. Harry wasn't unkillable, he was still mortal, only Voldemort couldn't kill him because the protection Lily's sacrifice gave was protection from Voldemort alone.

Dumbledore said he didn't want Harry to gain the hallows at the wrong time or for the wrong reasons. Harry himself realized that he was not supposed to seek the hallows, only to know about them. Although, the knowledge that the Elder Wand was not rightfully Voldemort's was useful knowledge once he figured it out- it meant he knew he could defeat him.


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  #31  
Old July 28th, 2007, 2:16 am
Goosie_goo  Female.gif Goosie_goo is offline
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

I was under the impression that he didn't actually use the Hallows, that it was just his blood in Voldemort that kept him alive. Wasn't he the master of the Hallows because he didn't use them? If you catch my drift...


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  #32  
Old July 28th, 2007, 2:19 am
Wizard_waker  Male.gif Wizard_waker is offline
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

I think in the beginning, Dumbledores plan was to guide Harry to his enevitable battle with Voldemort and help him along the way in any way he could, but things changed once he was basically given a year to live and that all changed from helping Harry to teaching Harry.


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  #33  
Old July 28th, 2007, 3:55 am
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

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Originally Posted by Goosie_goo View Post
Wasn't he the master of the Hallows because he didn't use them? If you catch my drift...
Hmm, that sounds very plausible. Good observation!


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  #34  
Old July 28th, 2007, 4:24 am
persian85033  Female.gif persian85033 is offline
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

to destroy Voldemort, of course, I guess.

I suppose that the real master of Death, is the person who's not afraid of death.


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  #35  
Old July 28th, 2007, 3:37 pm
i6uuaq  Undisclosed.gif i6uuaq is offline
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

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Originally Posted by jaan View Post
This isn't quite accurate. Harry wasn't unkillable, he was still mortal, only Voldemort couldn't kill him because the protection Lily's sacrifice gave was protection from Voldemort alone.
goosie_goo got it right, jaan. it was the blood bond that LV created in taking Harry's blood that kept him alive... the blood in Voldemort anchored Harry to life as securely as his mother's charm did, and this is why Voldemort passed out when he AK'ed Harry.

I've been thinking very hard about what Dumbledore's plan was... been re-reading the book quite abit, and Dumbledore actually says that he knew LV would begin looking for the Elder Wand after the graveyard fight... although i guess that DD didn't consider this important, knowing that LV was quite unable to outduel him...

but consider what Dumbledore left to the trio in his will... the Snitch, and the Tales of Beedle the Bard. He obviously intended them to find out about the Hallows, making it purposely difficult ("I'm afraid I counted on Miss Granger to slow you down, Harry. I was afraid you'd make the same mistake I did.") so that Harry would understand that he was intended to know about the Hallows, but not use them. Read the bit where Harry buries Dobby.......So what did you know about me, Dumbledore? Am I meant to know, but not to seek? Did you know how hard I'd find that? Is this why you made it so difficult? He wanted Harry to find out about the Elder Wand, but only so that he would know how to defend himself against the wand, but not to actually use it. I guess that Dumbledore foresaw that LV would somehow gain control of the wand, and chose not to tell Snape about it.

Read what Dumbledore said to Harry in "King's Cross". Dumbledore tells Harry that he isn't dead, and Harry exclaims "But I didn't defend myself!" and Dumbledore says happily that "that has made all the difference." (i'm quoting from memory here, go read it yourself) The way I understand it is that it was important that Harry didn't defend himself, that he gets AK'ed willingly so that the Elder Wand will fire the AK at him and kill the piece of LV stuck to his forehead. If Harry resisted, or was uncertain, the Elder Wand would not have destroyed that piece of soul. (If Harry was not the master of the Elder Wand, then it wouldn't have mattered whether he went willingly or not. He would have been AK'ed, but would still have been able to return due to the blood bond)

But Dumbledore knew that Harry was still anchored to life through the blood bond. When the AK hit Harry, it killed the Harry Horcrux. It would have killed Harry too, except for the blood bond, which dragged LV along with Harry into King's Cross. If Harry had chosen to die properly, that bit of LV would have died too, leaving only Nagini as his last Horcrux. But Harry chose to come back (on Dumbledore's advice, i might add), bringing LV back too.

By this point, Dumbledore was omniscient, and he knew that Harry was the master of the Elder Wand, and LV would be unable to kill Harry. He also knew that Harry had managed to put the love charm over himself and the entire school, because he had died willingly. By this point, there was no way LV was going to win, hence it was better that Harry returned.


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  #36  
Old August 5th, 2007, 4:50 am
jca0331 jca0331 is offline
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"the boy must die..." "...and Voldemort must do it himself..."

DH US Pp 686

"So the boy...the boy must die?" asked Snape quite calmly.
"And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential."

This passage has been puzzling me. Why was it necessary that Voldemort kill Harry?

If everything has gone according to Dumbledore's plan, anyone could have killed Harry and both Harry and the piece of Voldemort soul would have died. This conversation takes place while Dumbledore is alive so he doesn't know that there's a chance that Harry could become master of the Elder Wand and that Voldemort will try to use that wand against him. What am I missing?


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  #37  
Old August 5th, 2007, 10:16 am
Fairygdmther  Female.gif Fairygdmther is offline
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Re: So, what really was Dumbledores plan?

Voldemort had to 'kill' Harry because of the prophecy and because otherwise Harry would truly die and be unable to come back, and kill Voldemort.

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Last edited by Fairygdmther; August 5th, 2007 at 10:18 am.
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  #38  
Old August 5th, 2007, 10:26 am
wizardswheezes  Female.gif wizardswheezes is offline
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Re: "the boy must die..." "...and Voldemort must do it himself..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jca0331 View Post
DH US Pp 686

"So the boy...the boy must die?" asked Snape quite calmly.
"And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential."

This passage has been puzzling me. Why was it necessary that Voldemort kill Harry?

If everything has gone according to Dumbledore's plan, anyone could have killed Harry and both Harry and the piece of Voldemort soul would have died. This conversation takes place while Dumbledore is alive so he doesn't know that there's a chance that Harry could become master of the Elder Wand and that Voldemort will try to use that wand against him. What am I missing?
The blood connection only protected Harry against Voldemort. If Voldemort tried to kill him, Harry would remain 'tethered to life' and be able to return from the King's Cross scenario (minus the fragment of Voldemort's soul). Harry wasn't protected from other Death Eaters. So it was important for Voldemort to try to kill Harry in order for the soul fragment to be removed and for Harry to live.


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  #39  
Old August 5th, 2007, 12:32 pm
Markerlight  Male.gif Markerlight is offline
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Re: "the boy must die..." "...and Voldemort must do it himself..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jca0331 View Post
DH US Pp 686

"So the boy...the boy must die?" asked Snape quite calmly.
"And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential."

This passage has been puzzling me. Why was it necessary that Voldemort kill Harry?
If Harry died willing it would give everyone protection against Voldemort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizardswheezes View Post
The blood connection only protected Harry against Voldemort.
How can you be so sure it would only work against Voldemort? Isn't the blood bond essentially the same as a Horcrux except that it stops the body from really dying (but the soul is still freed)? It would explain why Dumbledore never taught Harry any advanced magic since he was essentially invincible as long as Voldemort lived post GoF.

As for how Dumbledore intended Voldemort to be killed after Harry's sacrifice I think he was probably going to do it himself prior to HBP. After that it seemed like Snape would do it as Dumbledore wanted him to remain close to Voldemort (Dumbledore's portrait telling Snape about Harry's departure date from the Dursleys). But then by making Snape kill him wasn't Dumbledore making Snape Voldemort's target for the Elder Wand? On the other hand if Harry gave everyone protection it could have been anyone that did it. So confusing.



Last edited by Markerlight; August 5th, 2007 at 12:40 pm.
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  #40  
Old August 5th, 2007, 1:02 pm
wizardswheezes  Female.gif wizardswheezes is offline
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Re: "the boy must die..." "...and Voldemort must do it himself..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markerlight View Post
If Harry died willing it would give everyone protection against Voldemort.

How can you be so sure it would only work against Voldemort? Isn't the blood bond essentially the same as a Horcrux except that it stops the body from really dying (but the soul is still freed)? It would explain why Dumbledore never taught Harry any advanced magic since he was essentially invincible as long as Voldemort lived post GoF.

I don't think the blood protection functioned in quite the same way as a horcrux. The reason Harry was 'tethered to life' by his blood in Voldemort was because it contained the trace of Lily's sacrifice - and Lily's sacrifice specifically protected Harry against Voldemort, not anyone else.


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