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So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?



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  #61  
Old August 18th, 2007, 6:57 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

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Originally Posted by maxuskingdom View Post
If Voldemort chose someone other than Narcissa to check Harry's body...wouldn't it be the end of everything?
I think that there is just too much of a coincidence and chance involved when Voldemort selected her. Too much luck on Harry's side IMHO.
Any thoughts?
Well, had Voldemort chosen someone other than Narcissa, Harry could have been killed. I am not sure though, whether the fact that Voldemort had Harry´s protected blood in him would have saved Harry anyway. Or if the Elder wand would have recognized Harry as its true master and therefore Harry would have survived. But that is for another thread.

I think choosing Narcissa showed - again - Voldemort´s complete inability to understand love. To take feelings people have into consideration. It was Narcissa´s love for her son that made her help Harry. Voldemort was counting on his indimidating nature being enough for everyone to be 'loyal' to him.

Maybe Voldemort sent Narcissa because she was not actually a DE, not actively fighting and thus he considered her dispensable in case Harry was still alive and would strike.

From a narrative pov, JKR had to chose someone who had a motif in lying to Voldemort for Harry to survive. I think choosing Narcissa was a believable move for JKR.


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  #62  
Old August 18th, 2007, 7:08 pm
DragonWing  Female.gif DragonWing is offline
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

JK chose to put Narcissa in that role for obvious plot reasons...it brought out that other side of the Malfoy's and showed her capacity for love that Voldemort could never understand.

As for the question of if it had been another DE, would it have turned out differently? The Elder Wand still would have recognized Harry as its true master so I think it would have backfired on Voldemort just as it did at the end. I think the Death Eaters would have been so stunned at the death of their leader that it would have given Harry and Hagrid ample time to escape any DE's who didn't recognize defeat. I think it would have been funny to see all of the DE's staring dumbfounded at Voldy's body for awhile!


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  #63  
Old August 18th, 2007, 7:14 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

i agree what has been said above. also, if another deatheater was chosen to check his body and found him alive, the deatheaters would not have killed him themselves. Voldemort wouldnt have let them, as he has been trying to kill harry for years, he wouldn;t let someone else do it. as he says a lot ''potter is mine.''
It is really put down to voldemorts blindness to love. Narcissa said harry was dead for harry because she wanted to save her son, the power of love is everywhere in her action there. she just wanted to know if her son was alright.


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  #64  
Old August 18th, 2007, 7:15 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

I have thought of that idea. Although I agree with ronjalina. Had Narcissa not been picked to check on Harry, he would've most probably been surely dead. The Dark Lord may have not killed him, but the Death Eaters would've surely defeated Harry.
I seem to also think J.K picked Narcissa, possibly the only Death Eater who had a motive to lie to the Dark lord just to protect her son. This may have benefited Narcissa, but it had done the same with Harry.


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  #65  
Old August 18th, 2007, 7:25 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

If LV didn't chose Narcissa, then let's assume that he duels with Harry again and gets hit by the backfired curse by the Elder Wand. After that, I'm sure Harry would be finished off by Bellatrix...since she was getting in hyper-mode at that time..by the way she was described. Ok, so LV "dies", and Harry dies. So the DE's consider disbanding perhaps? But then..if all these really do happen...we have to consider the fact that Nagini is still alive. So, couldnt they just do another resurrection?
From what I see, if another DE was chosen, LV would have won the battle.


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  #66  
Old August 18th, 2007, 7:29 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

No, Voldemort could not have been killed.
Nagini was still alive.

As for there being too much chance involved, you should read the entire series over again. Everything that happened was through chance.


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  #67  
Old August 18th, 2007, 7:40 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

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Originally Posted by Greeney View Post
No, Voldemort could not have been killed.
Nagini was still alive.
oh duh! I forgot about the snake

and I agree about the whole series being chance...it was chance that made Voldemort target Harry instead of Neville in the first place.


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  #68  
Old August 18th, 2007, 8:01 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

Oh yea...I forgot that bit about Narcissa not being an official DE..I just assumed that she is all along. Okay..haha...it makes so much more sense now...yea, LV would have chosen her since she's more "disposable".
As for the series being too much about chance..well...there's usually some sort of acceptable explanation about things that happen.


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  #69  
Old August 18th, 2007, 8:13 pm
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Re: The Flaw In The Plan?

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Originally Posted by ronjalina View Post
Maybe Voldemort sent Narcissa because she was not actually a DE, not actively fighting and thus he considered her dispensable in case Harry was still alive and would strike.

From a narrative pov, JKR had to chose someone who had a motif in lying to Voldemort for Harry to survive. I think choosing Narcissa was a believable move for JKR.
I'd have to agree with both of these statements. It seems in character for Voldemort to choose Narcissa as someone who was was never a full Death Eater since it didn't matter to him whether she was killed/hurt by Harry. And Narcissa's helping Harry does work in the context of the story since she was concerned for her son. As was mentioned, it serves to further demonstrate how the power of love was able to destroy Voldemort - it was something he completely failed to take into consideration.

As an aside, I wonder how Narcissa would have reacted if Draco had died and Harry had told her so.


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  #70  
Old August 19th, 2007, 7:45 am
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

Dumbledoreswand, for the most part I like and understand your theory, but I still feel like I'm missing something. We saw Voldemort take DD's wand from his tomb in DH - are you saying that that wand wasn't the real Elder wand? Or that it was buried with DD by accident because Snape couldn't recover it after DD's death as DD intended him to?

See, my understanding was that DD intended for the wand to be both rendered ordinary by his death as its last true master AND unavailable to anyone else (i.e., buried with him), which is why it really threw me when he told Harry he'd intended for Snape to have it...

And I think I just managed to confuse myself again.


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  #71  
Old August 19th, 2007, 8:00 am
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

I think Dumbledore's plan involved the most powerful direct result of Harry's willingness to die: the magical protection he bestowed on the others with his sacrifice. That seems the key reason, I believe, that Harry had to be in the dark about the whole extended-blood-sacrifice thing, that and the seventh Horcrux. Voldemort's power was greatly lessened when his enemies were shielded by Harry's love, which, we were told in HBP, was what the prophecy referred to when it said Harry would have "power the Dark Lord knows not."

The Elder Wand was, we know, a fortunate slip-up. How Harry would otherwise have finished Voldemort I have no idea, though it might have been sheer force of numbers that could have done the job--all those love-protected witches and wizards swarming snake-face might just have done the job.

...Wow, that's a comical image. Voldemort, literally steamrollered by a horde of schoolchildren, house-elves, and teachers of various age and size. I can just see that lily-white hand sinking into the rushing current of human heads...


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  #72  
Old August 20th, 2007, 5:27 am
Laika84  Undisclosed.gif Laika84 is offline
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Dumbledore's intentions regarding the Elder Wand.

Hi, for a while I've been wondering what exactly was Dumbledore's original plan.

In the King's Cross chapter he admits to Harry that he intended for Snape to become the wand's new master after he'd killed him, but also he says that he knew Voldemort would go looking for the wand. Does this mean he was planning on sacrificing Snape after all he'd done for him? And as the plot seems to indicate that it was largely due to the wand's influence that Harry survived, how was he expecting him to defeat Voldemort after he had sacrificed himself?


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  #73  
Old August 20th, 2007, 7:49 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's intentions regarding the Elder Wand.

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Originally Posted by Laika84 View Post
Hi, for a while I've been wondering what exactly was Dumbledore's original plan.

In the King's Cross chapter he admits to Harry that he intended for Snape to become the wand's new master after he'd killed him, but also he says that he knew Voldemort would go looking for the wand. Does this mean he was planning on sacrificing Snape after all he'd done for him? And as the plot seems to indicate that it was largely due to the wand's influence that Harry survived, how was he expecting him to defeat Voldemort after he had sacrificed himself?
If Snape had killed Dumbledore the wand's power would have ceased to work since the death was planned and the wand was not stolen nor the owner murdered. This was Dumbledore's plan.


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  #74  
Old August 20th, 2007, 8:02 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's intentions regarding the Elder Wand.

But his intention was for Snape to own it (at least he said that) but I think it wouldn't have been good. It was pretty obvious that if Voldemort found out about the Elder Wand he would kill Snape, and therefore become the true master himself. I don't think Dumbledore wanted that to happen. Beats me why he didn't tell Harry at King's Cross, though.


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  #75  
Old August 20th, 2007, 9:10 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's intentions regarding the Elder Wand.

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But his intention was for Snape to own it (at least he said that) but I think it wouldn't have been good. It was pretty obvious that if Voldemort found out about the Elder Wand he would kill Snape, and therefore become the true master himself. I don't think Dumbledore wanted that to happen. Beats me why he didn't tell Harry at King's Cross, though.
But he wouldn't have killed Snape, he would have attacked Snape - Snape may have defended himself if he owned the elder wand. And I'm sure Snape would have had the guts that Dumbledore didn't to shoot green light at Voldemort. It would have been quite a battle to read about though.


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  #76  
Old August 20th, 2007, 9:51 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

I personally feel like Dumbledore's plan was executed as he wished it would be. I think it's unfortunate that he was unable to disclose all of his plan to Harry, but in the end, I think it was for the best. I mean hey, the world is, after all, Voldemort free.


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  #77  
Old August 20th, 2007, 10:18 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

I thought when DD said he had wanted Snape to end up with the Elder Wand it meant that he intended for Snape to be killed by Voldemort (although Snape would not be the true owner of the wand). So then when Snape had died, not being the true owner, Voldemort would face Harry and still lose due to the elder wand not being his. That bit did work out, but not the bit about Snape having the wand - although Voldy thought Snape was the owner so in a way it worked out.



Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 20th, 2007 at 10:20 pm.
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  #78  
Old August 20th, 2007, 11:40 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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I thought when DD said he had wanted Snape to end up with the Elder Wand it meant that he intended for Snape to be killed by Voldemort (although Snape would not be the true owner of the wand). So then when Snape had died, not being the true owner, Voldemort would face Harry and still lose due to the elder wand not being his. That bit did work out, but not the bit about Snape having the wand - although Voldy thought Snape was the owner so in a way it worked out.
A logically impossible outcome. The Elder Wand works as well as Voldemort's own phoenix-and-yew wand for Voldemort, even though he isn't the master. He would have faced Harry in a duel of skill, and Harry would have inevitably lost. The only way for Harry to overcome Voldemort and the Elder Wand, without some other factor added in to tip the scales in his favor, is for Harry to be the master of the Elder Wand. The plan thus backfired brilliantly for the side of righteousness: it provided Harry the edge he needed to win.


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  #79  
Old August 20th, 2007, 11:56 pm
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Re: So, where lay the flaws in Dumbledore's plan?

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Originally Posted by Leon_Lionheart View Post
...Wow, that's a comical image. Voldemort, literally steamrollered by a horde of schoolchildren, house-elves, and teachers of various age and size. I can just see that lily-white hand sinking into the rushing current of human heads...
That would have been...epic.


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  #80  
Old August 21st, 2007, 12:39 am
Laika84  Undisclosed.gif Laika84 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's intentions regarding the Elder Wand.

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Originally Posted by Greeney View Post
But he wouldn't have killed Snape, he would have attacked Snape - Snape may have defended himself if he owned the elder wand. And I'm sure Snape would have had the guts that Dumbledore didn't to shoot green light at Voldemort. It would have been quite a battle to read about though.
No, he would have killed him exactly as he did. Voldemort killed Snape because he thought he was the wand's master. It just turned out that this information was incorrect. My point was that Dumbledore seemed to intend this to happen as he knew Voldemort would want the wand.


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