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The Creature at King's Cross



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The creature was the piece of Voldemort's soul that made Harry a Horcrux. 271 55.53%
The creature was Voldemort's actual soul from his body in the forest. 204 41.80%
The creature is something else or a symbolic idea or combination of his soul pieces. 53 10.86%
Voldemort's fall in the forest is unrelated to the creature or the blood bond 16 3.28%
Voldemort's fall in the forest is related to the creature in King's Cross. 176 36.07%
Voldemort's fall in the forest is related to the blood bond. 116 23.77%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 488. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old September 20th, 2007, 11:41 pm
wandrider  Male.gif wandrider is offline
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
We have canon that Voldemort was fearful in the cemetery scene in GoF from Harry's observations. Later, in KC, Dumbledore also states that Voldemort was "more scared than you were that night." Harry also picks up on Voldemort's fear after the break-in at Gringotts, when he realizes Harry is attacking horcruxes. We see it in the narrative of their final duel. Remember the wand shaking in his hand moments before he cast his last AK?

So it's a given that Voldemort can experience fear. I think he was scared in the forest hollow that night. He didn't become gleesful until Narcissa said that Harry was dead.
Who didn't do 'a given' that Voldemort can have fear? Not me. I think I'm suggesting what his fears were in post #70.

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Originally Posted by snapegirl77 View Post
But, canon has never shown us anyone like Voldemort before. We have no way to judge exactly how a torn, damaged soul will react in a situation like King's Cross. We know that ghosts, portraits, etc keep the dead's personality. We also know horcruxes are very rare and few people have ever gone that far in Dark Magic. Nobody has ever made as many as Voldemort. Therefore, I think there is room to speculate about if (or what) that creature thing felt, saw or heard in King's Cross because we have nothing to compare it to.
Sure we do. Of the seven HorcruxSoul pieces that we did witness being destroyed, each had very nasty and very smart intelligence. They could read minds near them too! Just like the remaining 1/8th too. What's not to compare, but all we can compare? LV 1/8th is unique, but it does compare uniquely consistent too.

What would Molly say if you were to say otherwise? (Just play'n.)

LV is no exception to the rule, because we've seen most of the 8 exceptions behaviors & intelligence. It's completely consistent with the other dead souls and ghosts and portrait people too. It's consistent with Christian ideas about the soul having mind-function in the afterlife, which does have this connection to the ending of DH too.

Harry used the word God in DH: “Yeah,” said Harry. “Thank God.” Molly & Ron & several more do too many times. Though, I'm just throwing this God thing in for fun. Adds to the soul of the matter.

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Originally Posted by snapegirl77 View Post
I also think there is a clue in how Harry perceived time at King's Cross. He was having trouble telling how much time was passing while he was there. I think if Voldemort's soul was there also, it could have felt that only a second passed. So when Voldemort woke up in the forest after falling, maybe he really didn't remember much or anything. Maybe what he saw was a quick flash and didn't concern him much.
If DD and Harry experienced Limbo, then why not LV too? Outside of Space & Time LV had all the time he needed, didn't he? So, are you suggesting he was not aware 'then', but he will be aware or never will? That's it? Free ticket to something equal to death? How do you understand his afterlife? Molly way or some other highway? Actually, Molly might want some serious suffering too.

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Originally Posted by snapegirl77 View Post
Either way, Voldemort remembering agony or nothing, I don't think he would have made his feelings clear to the Death Eaters in the forest.
I totally agree. But LV would have been shrewed enough to manipulate that situation for his purposes. Had he known he was at KC he would have had everyone do some ritual AK or other bizarre pure blood share the ritual act to make cover for his fears or freak-out AND kill Harry a few times over. He could always magically repair the body for appearance purposes, right? Polyjuice anyone? Yuck.

Hey, if he really was 'there' 'there' I think he would have reconsidered his flaw in the plan. Once Harry did reveal he was alive Voldemort was always smart enough to cut his losses and run for it too. Then JKR would have to write another book.


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Last edited by wandrider; September 21st, 2007 at 12:34 am.
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  #82  
Old September 21st, 2007, 12:10 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
Ah, but the quotes don't cover what's going on in his mind. Harry was right in thinking that Voldemort wasn't sure things had gone to plan. Personally, I bet he was scared to death in those first moments.
I bet he was, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotusFawkes
What we know is that when Harry first wakes up in King's Cross, "He was not perfectly sure that he was there himself. A long time later, or maybe no time at all, it came to him that he must exist, must be more than disembodied thought, because he was lying, definitely lying, on some surface."

He discovers he has eyes and what he sees is like a bright mist, but it wasn't like a cloudy vapor that hid things, more like it just hadn't formed into anything yet.

He was expecting to die. He had the spirits of his mum, dad, Sirius, and Lupin with him when he went to face Voldemort and this gave him the courage to face his own death.

Voldemort, on the other hand, expects to kill Harry, to see the flash hit him and his body fall to the ground, lifeless. He does not expect anything else to happen.

But something else DOES happen and he too collapses into unconsciousness. Whether he ever awoke in the in-between world is not something we can truly know. I'm guessing, and its only a guess, that the creature must have been aware of something for when Harry first hears a noise reaching him through the unformed nothingness it is described as "the soft thumpings of something that flapped, flailed, and struggled. It was a pitiful noise, yet also slightly indecent. He had the uncomfortable feeling that he was eavesdropping on something furtive, shameful." (p. 706)

For it to have moved at all would, to me, indicate some level of awareness. At various points the text says that the creature trembled, that Harry was distracted by the whimpering and thumping of the agonized creature, that it jerked and moaned, and that it trembled and choked in the shadow beneath the chair. Given that Harry's perception of time is rather skewed, it is impossible to know how the creature perceived time, whether a momentary flash or a prolonged eternity.

Then, upon awakening in his own body again, I believe Voldemort would have shucked it off as quickly as possible secure in the knowledge that he was in fact not dead and never would be. His own arrogance would prevent anything else from penetrating his consciousness, not even a near-death experience which he would probably discount as not having happened at all since even Harry asked Dumbledore if what he experienced was real or just in his head.

IMO, this is what accounts for his lack of reaction to anything that he might have experienced in King's Cross.
Nicely said, I agree.


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  #83  
Old September 21st, 2007, 12:23 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by wandrider View Post

Sure we do. Of the seven HorcruxSoul pieces that we did wittiness being destroyed, each had very nasty and very smart intelligence. They could read minds near them too! Just like the remaining 1/8th too. What's not to compare?

LV is no exception to the rule, because we've seen most of the 8 exceptions behaviors & intelligence. It's completely consistent with the other dead souls and ghosts and portrait people too. It's consistent with Christian ideas about the soul having mind-function in the afterlife too, which does have this connection to the ending of DH too.

Harry used the word God in DH too: “Yeah,” said Harry. “Thank God.” Molly & Ron & several more do too.
We see the horcruxes while they are "alive" (for lack of a better term). Then they were destroyed. We don't see them in a King's Cross type situation. What I mean is that when we see the other dead character, they have not damaged their souls. They act they they did in while they're alive. But with Voldemort, it's different. While a character with a whole soul is themselves in death, Voldemort with such a damaged soul, turns into that child-thing, IMO. We have no other character in the book who created horcruxes, therefore we can't be sure how Voldemort's damaged soul acts, thinks, or feels after death.
I never said anything about Christian concepts ( as Christianity doesn't mention splitting souls) or about Harry saying "Thank God" though.


Quote:
If DD and Harry experienced Limbo, then why not LV too. Outside of Space & Time LV had all the time he needed, didn't he? So, are you suggesting he was not aware 'then', but he will be aware or never will? That's it? Free ticket to something equal to death? How do you understand his afterlife? Molly way?
What's "Molly way"?
I was suggesting that since time was strange for Harry at King's Cross, it might have been for Voldemort's soul too. We have no way of knowing if his time in King's Cross felt like a second or forever. We have no way of knowing if he remembered or even felt anything.


Quote:
I totally agree. But LV would have been shrewed enough to manipulate that situation for his purposes. Had he known he was at KC he would have had everyone do some ritual AK or other bizarre pure blood share the ritual act to make cover for his fears or freak-out AND kill Harry a few times over. He could always magically repair the body for appearance purposes, right?
I think he did manipulate the situation just fine. Instead of having some freak out, he calmly got someone else to check Harry. That way, he's still in control of the Death Eaters and he was probably thinking of what to do next if Narcissa told him Harry wasn't dead. Freaking out after the fall would show the Death Eaters something scared him. He wasn't going to blow his cool after he thought he finally killed Harry.


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  #84  
Old September 21st, 2007, 12:25 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

The poll has been edited a tiny bit with help from thru_n_thru.


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  #85  
Old September 21st, 2007, 12:32 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

I think I misunderstood the poll when I voted (now that it's been revised). I think I'm more aligned with the first option than the second.


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  #86  
Old September 21st, 2007, 1:04 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by snapegirl77 View Post
Voldemort with such a damaged soul, turns into that child-thing, IMO.
Do you think the GoF child-creature is its form too?

Plus, I'm curious about your opinions too. What is LV's mind-function and awareness in his afterlife? Why is his fate worse than death?

(Molly way. Killing Bellatrix ***** <-B-word Meaning, Molly is going to want LV to know, understand, mind-function his afterlife. Not just be a veggie or be in such pain he's not even aware of it. That's how JKR feels about it, mind-functions imo, too.)

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Originally Posted by snapegirl77 View Post
I never said anything about Christian concepts ( as Christianity doesn't mention splitting souls) or about Harry saying "Thank God" though.
You posted too soon. I often edit online after posting for finishing touches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapegirl77 View Post
I think he did manipulate the situation just fine. Instead of having some freak out, he calmly got someone else to check Harry. That way, he's still in control of the Death Eaters and he was probably thinking of what to do next if Narcissa told him Harry wasn't dead. Freaking out after the fall would show the Death Eaters something scared him. He wasn't going to blow his cool after he thought he finally killed Harry.
Agreed. But if he knew he was in KC, then he would have handled it differently, imo.

Where was he and how did he get there and what was his mind-function and awareness in your opinion? And would it be the same forever?

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Originally Posted by Jessica View Post
The poll has been edited a tiny bit with help from thru_n_thru.
Yay! Woohoo! Quick reset the poll or take the current numbers, so we can know how to fix-adjust for the mess of confusion it was, imo. Numbers: 19, 60, 9, 3, 48, 0.


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  #87  
Old September 21st, 2007, 1:10 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
Sure we do. :) Of the seven HorcruxSoul pieces that we did witness being destroyed, each had very nasty and very smart intelligence. They could read minds near them too! Just like the remaining 1/8th too. What's not to compare, but all we can compare? LV 1/8th is unique, but it does compare uniquely consistent too.
Are you sure about this? I recall the way the diary behaved and the locket. But the ring and the cup were destroyed without seeing their destruction so we don't know if they manifested anything. The ring had a very powerful curse however that did cost Dumbledore his life, just delayed a bit. The diadem exhibited nothing like the diary or the locket before the Fiendfyre destroyed it. As for Nagini, Neville cut off her head and that was it. Then there's Harry and we know about him.

As for reading minds, you had to be emotionally close to the Horcrux before it could that. The locket was able to only because Ron gave it what it needed to show him his worst fear. And we know Ginny poured her heart out to the diary. But as for the other objects no one got emotionally close with them to give them any power to manifest what the diary or the locket did.

Quote:
So, are you suggesting he was not aware 'then', but he will be aware or never will? That's it? Free ticket to something equal to death? How do you understand his afterlife?
Personally, an eternal existence as that pathetic, flayed child, totally unwanted and unloved, is hell enough. Besides, somewhat paraphrasing Dumbledore, it is not the dead that we should concern ourselves, but the living who need it. I doubt anyone cares about Voldemort's fate per se. I think they only care that he is finally dead and cannot ever harm another person.


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  #88  
Old September 21st, 2007, 2:03 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by Jessica View Post
The poll has been edited a tiny bit with help from thru_n_thru.
Well, snickers. There's one thing I wouldn't have voted for if the choice had been this clear.


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  #89  
Old September 21st, 2007, 2:30 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by LotusFawkes View Post
Personally, an eternal existence as that pathetic, flayed child, totally unwanted and unloved, is hell enough.
My interest is to get to the canon of it as a mind puzzle.

Is your version of JKR's Voldy afterlife a veggie, unaware, and no mind-function to understand his past, present, and ongoing now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotusFawkes View Post
Besides, somewhat paraphrasing Dumbledore, it is not the dead that we should concern ourselves, but the living who need it. I doubt anyone cares about Voldemort's fate per se. I think they only care that he is finally dead and cannot ever harm another person.
Everyone posting seems to care enough about this fictional character's unreal death. Everyone posts about his fate. In that sense, everyone does care very much about a fictional character that never did exist or die.

Yay! Forever Harry Potter . . .


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  #90  
Old September 21st, 2007, 2:58 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by LotusFawkes View Post
Then, upon awakening in his own body again, I believe Voldemort would have shucked it off as quickly as possible secure in the knowledge that he was in fact not dead and never would be. His own arrogance would prevent anything else from penetrating his consciousness, not even a near-death experience which he would probably discount as not having happened at all since even Harry asked Dumbledore if what he experienced was real or just in his head. IMO, this is what accounts for his lack of reaction to anything that he might have experienced in King's Cross.
That's a valid explanation that I hadn't really considered. You make a good point about the perception of time in that limbo place between death, and I think that's what could make a difference in Voldemort's reaction. If he had experienced being the flayed baby for a very short period of time, it would indeed make sense that he wouldn't react in a shaken-up manner when he awoke. I'm starting to re-evaluate that scene, and I'm beginning to think that the King's Cross scene could have taken place in the space of a few seconds. If that's the case, it's possible that Voldemort's soul (the one in his body) could have physically been taken to King's Cross (though I believe it would look differently to Voldemort) and he could have perceived a very short experience as the flayed baby. It's certainly a possibility.


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  #91  
Old September 21st, 2007, 3:53 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
Is your version of JKR's Voldy afterlife a veggie, unaware, and no mind-function to understand his past, present, and ongoing now?
To be honest, I haven't given it much thought. I think he can feel the damage he has done, the same way self-flagellators would, but beyond that I don't know, and frankly, I'm not interested in contemplating it so please don't ask me to.

Quote:
Everyone posting seems to care enough about this fictional character's unreal death. Everyone posts about his fate. In that sense, everyone does care very much about a fictional character that never did exist or die.
I beg a thousand pardons. When I was paraphrasing Dumbledore, I was also referencing the characters in the book, not the posters on this thread. I truly don't think Molly cares what happens to Voldemort after he is dead and gone. I think all she'll care about is that her family is safe and the world is rid of him for good.

[Edit: I should say Molly would only care that what remains of her family is safe...having lost Fred, that is, but at least no more will ever be lost because of Voldy.]


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  #92  
Old September 21st, 2007, 4:10 pm
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by LotusFawkes View Post
Not to get into this too much, I think what Voldemort had already done to himself in creating all those Horcruxes was to already live a cursed "half-life", so, what's a unicorn more or less. More grist for the mill or like adding insult to injury type of thing.

As for can't die, are you meaning can't move on? I'm confused cuz I thought bodies die but not souls. A little help?
I agree that all the damage he'd done with the horcruxes undoubtedly outweighed that of the unicorn's blood. I was just intrigued because the unicorn's blood was supposed to provide a form of immortality (of the body), but one most people would reject in favor of death.

Voldemort at that point was seeking immortality via the Sorcerer's Stone, and used the the unicorn's blood as a stopgap for his "vapor-body" until the (presumably more powerful) Stone gave him true immortality.

Since none of that worked out, I'm sure LV (and the rest of us) forgot about the unicorn's blood. However, if you're immortal, you can't die physically (even as vapor). So his flayed baby body was incapable dying and letting what was left of his mangled soul pass on.

Just something I was wondering about...

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  #93  
Old September 21st, 2007, 4:43 pm
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by Polaris17 View Post
Voldemort at that point was seeking immortality via the Sorcerer's Stone, and used the the unicorn's blood as a stopgap for his "vapor-body" until the (presumably more powerful) Stone gave him true immortality.
Just something I was wondering about...

Polaris
This is an interesting question. I considered that the unicorn blood was giving the Quirrel body the ability to live while it was being possessed by Voldemort. So, once Quirrelmort was destroyed, and Voldemort returned to Vapormort, the unicorn blood effects would be ended.

So, since this appears to be another topic, (an interesting one, though), I will take it back to King's Cross by saying that I don't think the unicorn blood had any effect on Voldemort's current body.


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  #94  
Old September 21st, 2007, 4:54 pm
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
I believe it is the piece of Voldemort's soul that made Harry a Horcrux.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?
I think that no matter what conclusion one draws about what the creature actually was, it undoubtedly was also representative of the existence tht awaited Voldemort in the afterlife... the "fate worse than death." JKR is answering a question about what happened to Voldemort after the final duel with Harry, and her answer is simply that he is forced to exist in the form we witnessed in King's Cross. She is telling us what happened to Voldemort, what he will look like in the afterlife, and that the thing in King's Cross is in the same form as what Voldmeort's soul will be, but she did not say that the thing *was* Voldemort, IMO.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?
Not in the sense that the creature was Voldemort's actual soul from his body, No.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?
I think he falls mainly because of the blood bond between him and Harry. I also find the idea that Voldemort himself was the one who destroyed the Horcrux ("killed" Harry) interesting, AKing your own soul piece is kinda like suicide, and that may have been a factor as well (credit to Shewoman for the idea).

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?
I love the way this question is worded, as to me the only way the creature could have been Voldemort's actual soul piece is if he was in his own version of King's Cross and completely unaware of Harry's version for two main reasons; 1) because he wakes up with no recollection of being there and no awareness of Harry and Dumbledore's conversation, and 2) because the alternative explanation would be that his mutilated soul had no awareness or consciousness on its own, and that hardly seems like a "fate worse than death".
However, I don't think it was actually Voldemort's soul from his own body in King's Cross at all, so, obviosly, I am of the opinion that Voldemort was just unconscious in the forest .


7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?
I think that the blood bond between Harry and Voldemort played a big part and Harry being Ak'd and "dying" impacted Voldemort's consciousness becasue of it, and I am also thinking that Voldemort destroying his own Horcrux affected him negatively.

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The poll has been edited a tiny bit with help from thru_n_thru.
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  #95  
Old September 21st, 2007, 10:51 pm
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
Ok, but, also, if you read that chapter FitP at the Great Hall Harry is definitely in control. Honestly, he seemed totally assured of himself, and he *knew* LV was not going to show remorse. He even used language and ideas that didn't try to deeply convince LV to choose otherwise. He gave LV the bare hard facts, without any emotional appeal, but I just didn't see Harry as LV's spiritual redeemer. We have no canon to show Harry was spiritually inclined or was ever that compassionate for LV.
Of course Harry is not a spiritual redeemer, this was not what I meant at all. The books are not about religion, but we see many concepts that remind us of religious beliefs. I think Harry's asking Voldemort for remorse was just a way for the author to show Harry's noble nature. It could even be interpreted in a similar way as when you tell someone "Show some respect!", you're trying to make that person recognize or admit he has crossed a line, or that he is off limits. I think Harry was just explaining to Voldemort how wrong he had been in everything, from making the Horcruxes to using his blood to regain a body, and in so doing, told him to show remorse, that is, at least respect those whom you killed. But the fact that Harry did this still reminds me of that Christian belief I mentioned.
(By the way, Harry may not be a spiritual leader, but he is definitely a leader!)



Last edited by mugglebeki; September 21st, 2007 at 11:26 pm.
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  #96  
Old September 22nd, 2007, 12:28 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

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Originally Posted by mugglebeki View Post
(By the way, Harry may not be a spiritual leader, but he is definitely a leader!)
He is. An inspirational leader, the kind of leader people will truly follow.


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  #97  
Old September 22nd, 2007, 2:06 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Defining words to fit our theory?

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Originally Posted by mugglebeki View Post
By the way, Harry may not be a spiritual leader, but he is definitely a leader!
I think we agree that he is amazing to offer the remorse. I think only Harry had that 'right', since he was the targeted one.

I think he became a leader in DH, because he lost DD as his living mentor. Though Hermione was a heroic leader too in DH, imo, yet she was not intuitively making the right decisions with some plan of actions.

I would love to read the HP series from Hermione's pov too.

Now, for an idea about 'word use' to make our theories fit & work. Here's some ideas from another thread that really apply here. We all saw a creature child in KC, but I think many jumped to conclusions to describe how that happened. Here's my theory. (Please do critique these ideas too, please.)

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Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
When I think of tether I think of something like the way a child is tethered to a parent so they don't run away in a crowd.
Of course, you would. (Just Play'n)

But the main use of tether is an anchored end with the other moving in space.

Tether a ballon.
Tether a sailboat to its mooring.
Tether a horse to its hitching post.
Tether a Soul to HorcruxSoul to Earthbound.
Tether a HarrySoul to Earthbound LivingAnchorVoldy to NaginicruxSoul Earthbounding.

Then everyone picked-up on the sly idea of dragging Voldy into KC, so tether was changed to leash. That way we can drag'em in there.

Your use of tether is its secondary use of the word. Yes, parents do not want to say I've leashed my child, like their dog, so it's a nice way of putting it.

Also, tether has no 'rope length' in the soul world to drag Voldy anywhere. Harry could be on the moon and be tethered to LV, imo.

IMO, this secondary word meaning for tether was 'leashed' into the debate to fit an idea or word use to drag Voldy's soul somewhere it has no reason to be there. In fact, 'dragging' was chosen because unconsciously we KNOW neither Harry or Voldemort would want to be 'there' together under any circumstances.

For these obvious reasons, imo, we should be looking for better concepts to explain KC FlayChild than these 'dragging' and leashing the tether word to force Voldy there 'that' way.

Can't he be there for other more reasonable explanations?

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Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
You are right about the horcrux pieces that were attached to inanimate objects. But the horcrux connected with Nagini, a living thing, did not make a sound when it got "killed"/"destroyed". As far as the soul piece in Harry, we really don't get a chance to see if it made a noise because the story takes us straight from Voldemort casting the AK spell to Harry in Kings Cross.
Well, it *might* be the HarrycruxSoul whimpering destroyed in KC? (I'm not asserting this is correct.) As for Nagini I think the battle scene was what JKR focused on just as the AK was in the forest too. She wouldn't digress the story into some weird screaming HorcruxSoul distraction, but I do think these LivingHorcruxSouls do disconnect in destruction differently. Why?

Having a snake brain at one end is another reason too. Harry & Voldy supercomputer-brains at each end allowed for much more information sharing than a primitive-calculator snake brain connection at one end.

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Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
We also have the factor that it was Voldemort killing his own soul piece that may also have been part of the reason the soul piece doesn't put up a fight. Why would it fight against itself?
Nah! Remember, that soul piece is blocked-out by canon love. That's how Voldy got 'the shaft'; he never even knew it was there. And, the Voldy essence inside Harry was unable to penetrate Harry's pure soul of love.

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. . . I think the idea of time and space is interesting. JK Rowling, in my opinion, left this open to individual interpretation.
I totally agree!


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Last edited by wandrider; September 22nd, 2007 at 4:33 am.
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  #98  
Old September 22nd, 2007, 2:49 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

I really hope JKR tells us what this is sooner or later....


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  #99  
Old September 22nd, 2007, 3:05 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Interesting that "tether" has come up, as I've been thinking about it lately in regards to the purpose of the Horcruxes. If the creature was indeed Voldemort's soul from his actual body, and it had no choice but to follow Harry's soul to King's Cross and then back again because of the strength of the bond between them, that would mean the Horcrux tether was less powerful than the Harry-Voldy bond, and Nagini failed in her purpose as a Horcrux (to keep Voldy's soul on earth). What would have happened if Harry had just picked up Voldy's soul and gotten on a train? Seems Voldemort's soul would have had to follow yet again, and Voldemort would have died, as Naginicrux had already failed to keep his soul on earth.


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Last edited by thru_n_thru; September 22nd, 2007 at 3:29 am. Reason: add a word
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 3:18 am
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Re: The Creature at King's Cross

Lots of questions to answer on the awareness bit, so I will break them down one or two at a time:

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Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
If DD and Harry experienced Limbo, then why not LV too?
I think he may well have experienced it (since I'm a "It's the Part of V's Soul That Was In His Body-ite, who believes V's soul was most likely dragged along in a near-death experience somewhat like Harry's to "Harry's party" as a last gasp feedback effect of the "dying" of the Harrycrux connection)--but not in an any more fully cognizant way than he would spend his afterlife. More on that later in the post.

Quote:
Outside of Space & Time LV had all the time he needed, didn't he? So, are you suggesting he was not aware 'then', but he will be aware or never will?
That's pretty much what I think. I think his awareness will be pretty minimal, though with at least a vague sense that he himself has caused this pain. Again, I'll get to the extrapolation a bit farther down.

Quote:
That's it? Free ticket to something equal to death?
I don't quite get why you believe an afterlife of squirming in misery under a chair unable to help yourself or get help from anyone else, unable to go back to life or to go on to a meaningful afterlife, is a "free ticket" to anything, whether inside he's thinking "rawness! emptiness! hurt self! unbearable guilt! brokenness! misery! hopelessness!" which I believe more likely all that his shredded soul is capable of (yeah, yeah, I'm getting to it! ), or "Woe is me, I, the once-great and powerful uber-wizard, Lord Voldemort, who has made of his afterlife this shredded misery, am reduced to trembling and whimpering in raw pain, by my own most vicious and unrepentant horrific acts, visited upon other innocent lives because of my immense pride and self-aggrandizement. I am stuck in flayed excruciation under a chair forever, beyond the help of anyone else who may pass by. Alas! And Ouch!"

Neither one sounds like much of a picnic to me! Where's the free ticket?

Quote:
How do you understand his afterlife? Molly way or some other highway? Actually, Molly might want some serious suffering too.
I can see extrapolating Molly's feeling that way. But if some omniscient being were to inform her that V's afterlife was nothing but being stuck in limbo forever, in misery, with a stunted stub of a useless soul that might not even have a lot of consciousness of who or what he once was, because he wasn't even as much of a soul anymore as a small fragment of burnt firewood is a tree, well, I don't think she'd lose much sleep.

So why do I think Voldemort's consciousness is all that different than the portrait people, Nick. or anyone else's we've seen in the Potterverse?

Some reasons that it could very likely be different than anyone elses in the Potterverse's wizardly afterlife soul-representations that we've seen:

--No one else there ever remorselessly used murder to break their soul in more than 2, much less 8 pieces, without one regret, a condition we know from canon can seriously damage/wreck one's soul--i.e., horribly affect it's afterlife condition. There may be others whose soul is in bad shape after hitting the equivalent of a brick wall. His is like the equivalent of driving it over the edge of the Grand Canyon. It's ruined beyond beyond.

--As far as we know, no one else is stuck painfully thumping in limbo unable to go back (as a ghost) or move on.

Thus there are very good reasons his soul would behave differently after death than the rest of wizarding humanity.

But my main reason to believe this? I think we forget sometime that the child under the chair is not actually a body; it's a soul! That's not what his soul is inside of, that is his soul, a visible "image" of something invisible. (At least "his soul "--in some fashion--is what the huge majority see it as, according to posts and polls, and I believe they are right.)

The "form" he's stuck in is probably not any more literally a scarred-skinned child under a chair than Harry was literally in a train station. It's a representation, for putting into human-understandable, "wrap your mind around it" terms, a spiritual, otherwise inexplicable reality.

What was it of himself that V. damaged beyond help? Not hix afterlife body, with a fully intact mind/soul in it. The mind/soul/whatever one has made of one's humanity when one passes the veil, that is one's afterlife self. That's what he destroyed, that's what he doesn't have anything but a ruined useless chunk of, when he gets there. Souls are the currency of the afterlife, and like the child who trashed his party favors before he left the party, as another kid might say, "He doesn't have one to take home, because he wrecked his." His lies discarded under the chair, like the party whistle that has had it's sound hole smashed, its whistle ball fallen out of the smashed hull and lost, it's neck string torn off, and been stepped on. It's been ruined. It's no longer in any condition to be what it was meant to be used for. It can no longer be its "self."

Another way of saying it--I have a non-verbal, developmentally disabled autistic son. I would imagine his afterlife soul to be healthy, not hindered by mental or physical shortfalls he may have had in life, to able to speak normally, etc. He sometimes appears this way in my dreams, but still is recognizable of being fully himself, with his own familar persona. This healthy soul-self in the afterlife would be the mirror opposite, in my opinion, of what happened to Voldy, the way Hermione explained body/soul was the opposite of horcrux/container. His soul, his persona, his very self, is what is shoved aside aside as beyond self-ness.

We've talked a lot about the great symbolism of King's Cross and why this place presented itself to Harry's consciousness in this way. What does the Flaychild represent symbolically? Why was it represented in this "vision" in that way?

I think JKR shied away from actually calling it a baby because of people's sensibilities, but I think it's no surprise/accident people think of it as a baby--it makes pained noises, doesn't communicate interact or react to much, can't move itself beyond a bit of thumping, hmmm, what type of "child" does that sound like? I think she fully intended that impression, and fully intended to represent something small, partial, self-broken, remainderish, that "didn't work anymore."

The babyish "form" represents not only damaged goods, but a square-one level of awareness, limited ability to communicate and interact, to understand much of what goes on around it, etc. That's the "form" she uses to represent all that's left of his soul. A permanently small, blighted, unusable-as-a-personhood ruin.

I believe if she had wanted us to feel that Voldemort's full psychological mentality was horrifically trapped inside something that broken, we'd have seen reflections of that horror played out in her description of the thing as Harry sees it, perhaps a description of seeing something in its eyes (she's big on eyes) and descriptions indicating that this frightful object seemed to trap a fully aware mind. Such descriptions are conspicuous by their absence. Yes, he had a conscious, intelligent personhood while he had a living body and/or soul/horcrux. Afterall had passed into death, he had nothing left to pay his way into "beyond" with.

I think she really intended it to represent a left-behind, now-useless shred, a husk, a permanently-broken personhood. A crushed-out cigarette butt of a soul, what remains after the rest has been burned and crushed and discarded as useless. A few square inches of blown-out tire, ignored along the roadway. I can't see that sort of soul as being useful for containing a full personhood and consciousness.

A "form" which can maintain one's full mind/personhood for eternity? I'd say that's what a whole soul would be in JKR's universe.


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Last edited by Rookie_Angel; September 22nd, 2007 at 5:16 am. Reason: missing word
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