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Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2



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  #981  
Old May 25th, 2013, 1:19 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Ginny was at the Burrow when George arrived, earless. Also, I think after that, anyone who saw George would notice the missing ear, and the news would travel. At any rate, once it was known that George had his ear removed and Snape cast Secrumsempra and hit someone with it around the same time, I don't think it a big leap to put the two events together.
Oh (*facepalm*) that's right. Though I'm not sure that Ginny would have said anything (and the students wouldn't necessarily have seen George), but I think it more likely the portrait found out about George by listening to the students, as you've pointed out, than any other way.

One thing that surprises me about that interchange is that the portrait thought the ear incident would put the Trio off Snape more than the fact that he killed Dumbledore. That always struck me as rather odd.

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Dumbledore seems to have won the wand by taking it from Grindelwald by force, and Grindelwald before that seems to have won the wand by taking it by force. Neither killed to get it. Dumbledore of course knew that it wasn't necessary, and I think Voldemort did too. I think Voldemort just wanted to kill all the previous owners of the wand because he doesn't like to share power.
But I think LV may have misinterpreted Grindelwald's statement:
DH: Malfoy Manor“Kill me, then!” demanded the old man. “You will not win, you cannot win! That wand will never, ever be yours —”
From this statement, LV may have thought that killing the owner would give him mastery of the wand - and he was killing all the previous owners to make sure.

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I don't recall Phineas saying that off the top of my head. Do you have the book and chapter, and I'll look up the quote and context?
I can do one better! Harry has just portkeyed into DD's offcie from the MoM, emphasis mine:
OotP: The Lost Prophecy, p. 618, ebook versionA picture behind him gave a particularly loud grunting snore, and a cool voice said, “Ah . . . Harry Potter . . .”

Phineas Nigellus gave a long yawn, stretching his arms as he watched Harry with shrewd, narrow eyes.

“And what brings you here in the early hours of the morning?” said Phineas. “This office is supposed to be barred to all but the rightful headmaster. Or has Dumbledore sent you here? Oh, don’t tell me . . .” He gave another shuddering yawn. “Another message for my worthless great-great-grandson?”
Sigh. I love my ebooks.

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I don't know that Voldemort doesn't know that the Cup is a Portkey-- and actually, I figure that that information would come from Bertha Jorkins, not Voldemort.
He doesn't act like he knows it is still a Portkey. I think Crouch/Moody would have informed him as well as Bertha Jorkins. My own opinion is that it was not a Portkey after it arrived in the graveyard. I think DD, using the immense power of the EW, was able to turn it into one and used the echoes to inform Harry. Not quite sure of exactly how all that worked out though.

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I think Voldemort got his information from her. As for how the echoes mysteriously know things, Harry and Voldemort are connected by blood, by a piece of soul, and by shared wand cores. Their wands seem to have connected in an unusually powerful way, encasing them in some sort of bubble, together with the wands effects and the echoes, and closing out the Death Eaters. I guess I just assume that the echoes know things because of unique set of connections that occured, and that allowed them to pool their information in order to carry out their shared goal.
But DD and Fawkes seem to be connected as well. And why does JKR have the phoenix cores come from Fawkes? She doesn't seem to use that fact to any advantage that we know of (which is kind of odd). Nor are we given much of an example of the power of the EW (other than repairing Harry's wand). This instance would take care of both. And, since GoF is the middle book, she would want to keep, at least the EW's power, secret until the end.

Of course, then why not tell us now? Come on Pottermore!

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I don't think Dumbledore had anything to do with it at all.
I think DD set the whole thing up! I think the Triwizard Tournament was his idea from shortly after Harry told him of Trelawney's second prophecy at the end of PoA. DD knew by that time that if LV reincarnated with Harry's blood, Harry had a chance of surviving the death of his horcrux. DD could have simply refused to host the Tournament - they had too many problems protecting Harry to begin with. But I think DD wanted to mix things up enough to give LV a chance to kidnap Harry. Rereading GoF: The Four Champions it seems to me that DD is quite pleased that 1) Harry didn't put his own name in (meaning LV arranged for it to happen somehow) and 2) everyone decides the Tournament must continue on with four contestants. He's so happy about it, he wants to celebrate with drinks all around!

Since the kidnapping didn't occur during the first two tasks, DD knew it would happen on the third. This interchange gives me chills:
GoF: The Pensieve“Yes, Professor,” said Harry, turning to go.

“And —”

Harry looked back. Dumbledore was standing over the Pensieve, his face lit from beneath by its silvery spots of light, looking older than ever. He stared at Harry for a moment, and then said, “Good luck with the third task.”
He knows! He knows LV is going to take Harry. He doesn't know how or who will be responsible, but he knows Harry will be kidnapped and his blood used to bring LV back.

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Neither Fawkes nor Dumbledore put in a personal appearance at the graveyard.
No personal appearance, but could DD, through Fawkes, sense what was happening? Phoenix song is heard - which might have come from the cores, but could also have come from Fawkes himself: in CoS the Chamber is filled with phoenix song before Fawkes appears, so it doesn't seem he needs to be there to project that music.

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In CoS, Fawkes showed up because Harry asked for his help. Technically, Harry was still in Hogwarts castle when he asked for help, which I think was the parameters that Dumbledore set for forthcoming help. It is possible that only someone with a phoenix feather could get help from Fawkes, though Dumbledore stated it was showing loyalty to him that did it. At any rate, Fawkes doesn't show up to help Harry when he is in danger at any other time during the series. There seems to be times when Dumbledore does not realize that Harry is in grave danger-- for example, the end of OotP, when Dumbledore only learns of the danger when he reaches Order headquarters and Sirius has instructed Kreacher to inform him where everyone has gone.
In SS Dumbledore says he missed the owl Hermione sent but "No sooner had I reached London than it became clear to me that the place I should be was the one I had just left." How did he know that? Possibly Fawkes? In CoS Fawkes is able to physically locate Harry when no one else knows where the Chamber is located (and right after Riddle uses Harry's wand). In PoA doesn't quite hold up - maybe Fawkes doesn't think Harry's in danger because he's with teachers? Don't know. He might be helping in GoF, if my theory is correct. Harry's not in danger in HBP and he is gone in DH. Plus I don't think the phoenix gets involved unless DD instructs him to, though he may relay information to DD.

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In the graveyard in GoF, Harry never asks for help or mentions Dumbledore like he did in CoS, plus he is far off the school grounds. I don't think Dumbledore knew what had happened until it was over.
As I've mentioned, I think DD set it up for Riddle to kidnap Harry and DD knew where LV would take him when he did. DD would know when LV reincarnated because Snape would have immediately reported the summons he received. DD would have known then that the deed was done and that Harry was no longer in the maze. That could have been a signal for DD and Fawkes to get ready in case the wands connected. And when they did, DD moved the combatants away from the cup so that he could turn it into a Portkey whithout anyone noticing (it's rather a showy process - glowing blue and rattling). Harry hears a voice inside his head, like the phoenix song, - "Don't break the connection." This is another bit of information that only DD would know about and is given before the echoes appear.

I think DD was involved up to his eyeballs!


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  #982  
Old May 26th, 2013, 11:43 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I think that's a reasonable summary of how things likely would have gone. I think Dumbledore would have gone to his office to be treated by Snape. I don't think it would have taken very long for Dumbledore to figure out R.A.B. was Regulus, since Sirius had known his brother was a Death Eater, and Order Headquarters were in Regulus's family home. I think Ron would have thought of the basilisk fangs before they left school for the summer, and so the Trio would have a backup way to destroy Horcruxes from the start. I don't know that anything else would have gone more smoothly. I don't think Dumbledore had any plans to tell an Order member what was going on so they could guide Harry if he needed it. Dumbledore may have been too overconfident that his plans would run without a hitch of their own accord, or that his portrait would be able to guide things for him. It is possible too that Dumbledore had other plans that were incomplete at the time of his death. For example, in his talks to Snape Dumbledore claimed that he wanted Snape to tell Harry certain things, but then left Snape no means to actually locate Harry when he did need to tell him things. Maybe Dumbledore had intended to give Snape something that would allow Snape to actually carry out Dumbledore's stated plan by some means other than pure luck and chance?
1) Dumbledore certainly did rely a lot on chance and luck which suprises me hugely as he is supposed to the most intelligent wizard at the time, as you said he had no way of making sure that Snape would be able to get to Harry, did he also fail to see that the chances of HARRY FINDING OUT WHERE THE HORCRUXES WERE AND ACTUALLY OBTAINING THEM was a bit too low, let alone surviving? He never actually attempted to destroy Voldemort's body when dueling him (this would have made the later horcrux hunts much easier and his Death Eaters would have been defeated). He didn't actually confront Draco earlier and perhaps persuade him that he could defect to the order and kill Dumbledore later when the time was right (like he did with Snape), I don't see why he couldn't have taught Harry Occlumency himself (this probably due to my lack of knowledge). Also he seems to have gone into the Horcrux Cave not 100% prepared, as he didn't bring any means to destroy the horcrux and he certainly didn't arrange for the potential event of both of them being killed. Before he drank the potion, he did nothing to actually tell Harry what to do if he was to be paralysed or suffer from the other things he speculated. I see all this (and I could go on) thinking how weird it must be if he's supposed to be the most intelligent wizard, are these plotholes or was he clever enough to, like the prophecy, be able to predict what was going to happen in the rest of the series.

2) Do you think Dumbledore should have approached Draco Malfoy earlier in the Half Blood Prince and persuaded him to change sides and kill him later, when he said so. (Just like he did with Snape).

3) How do you think Dumbledore would have related to Kreacher after realising what he had been through with Regulus and Voldemort when he was younger? (The what if being if Draco hadn't brought death eaters in, giving Dumbledore more time after obtaining the fake horcrux.

4) What do you think Dumbledore saw and felt while he drank the potion? And Was he right in making himself, not Harry drink it?


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  #983  
Old May 27th, 2013, 1:59 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan View Post
1) [...] I see all this (and I could go on) thinking how weird it must be if he's supposed to be the most intelligent wizard, are these plotholes or was he clever enough to, like the prophecy, be able to predict what was going to happen in the rest of the series.
I think those things were a demonstration of Dumbledore's overconfidence in his own abilities, coupled with an underestimation of everyone else's. I think he was a very brilliant wizard, but still had some serious flaws. I think because Dumbledore was so clever and had struggled with making right decisions in his youth, that he was afraid that people less clever than him would do an even worse job at it, and tended to treat them sort of like children who weren't quite ready to make the big decisions on their own. Problem was, they would have to be making decisions on their own, because Dumbledore was going to die, but even knowing this Dumbledore still had a hard time giving up control.

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2) Do you think Dumbledore should have approached Draco Malfoy earlier in the Half Blood Prince and persuaded him to change sides and kill him later, when he said so. (Just like he did with Snape).
I think as soon as Draco's efforts started endangering the lives of the schoolkids, that it needed to be stopped. The Unbreakable Vow complicated things, and Dumbledore wanted more time to complete his plans. I think Dumbledore wanted to have it drag out to the end of the school year, and planned to have his plans in place by then. It doesn't appear to me that Dumbledore was in a rush during the year to get all the information to Harry that he had about Voldemort-- Harry's lessons were really spaced out. I think Dumbledore should have gotten his stuff in order quicker, and not assumed he had the full year.

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3) How do you think Dumbledore would have related to Kreacher after realising what he had been through with Regulus and Voldemort when he was younger? (The what if being if Draco hadn't brought death eaters in, giving Dumbledore more time after obtaining the fake horcrux.
Probably with compassion.

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4) What do you think Dumbledore saw and felt while he drank the potion? And Was he right in making himself, not Harry drink it?
[/quote]

I think he saw his mistakes that contributed to Arianna's death.

Harry was underage, so Dumbledore should not have had him drink the potion. Of course, there were many older wizards who possessed free will who may have sacrificed themselves for the task, if asked.


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  #984  
Old May 27th, 2013, 9:38 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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1) Dumbledore certainly did rely a lot on chance and luck which suprises me hugely as he is supposed to the most intelligent wizard at the time,
I think DD relied on the prophecy a bit more than he let on and believed providence would assist the good in overcoming evil (which it did btw).

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as you said he had no way of making sure that Snape would be able to get to Harry,
I think he might have, actually. The Forest of Dean is about 43 square miles. Phineas's information (which was a pure stroke of luck) would not have been of much help. It may be that the Headmaster of Hogwarts could track one of the Hogwarts snitches.

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did he also fail to see that the chances of HARRY FINDING OUT WHERE THE HORCRUXES WERE AND ACTUALLY OBTAINING THEM was a bit too low, let alone surviving?
I think DD relied on Harry's "training", ingenuity and determination to find the horcruxes. Harry had proven himself in the past.

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He never actually attempted to destroy Voldemort's body when dueling him (this would have made the later horcrux hunts much easier and his Death Eaters would have been defeated).
If he had killed LV, he would have eliminated Harry's chance of surviving the death of his scarcrux.

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He didn't actually confront Draco earlier and perhaps persuade him that he could defect to the order and kill Dumbledore later when the time was right (like he did with Snape),
What if he had approached Draco and Draco had refused his help (as Draco did on the tower)? Snape's cover would have been blown because DD should not have known about Draco's mission.

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I don't see why he couldn't have taught Harry Occlumency himself (this probably due to my lack of knowledge).
DD avoided contact with Harry that year hoping it would prevent LV using Harry to spy on him.

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Also he seems to have gone into the Horcrux Cave not 100% prepared, as he didn't bring any means to destroy the horcrux and he certainly didn't arrange for the potential event of both of them being killed. Before he drank the potion, he did nothing to actually tell Harry what to do if he was to be paralysed or suffer from the other things he speculated. I see all this (and I could go on) thinking how weird it must be if he's supposed to be the most intelligent wizard, are these plotholes or was he clever enough to, like the prophecy, be able to predict what was going to happen in the rest of the series.
But everything in the cave worked out just as DD suspected it would, so he was brilliant and right. It's when he got back that things were not as he suspected they would be. He had done everything to guard against that eventuality, but wasn't able to discover what Draco was up to.


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  #985  
Old May 27th, 2013, 9:46 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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If he had killed LV, he would have eliminated Harry's chance of surviving the death of his scarcrux.
. Did he even know about the scarcrux then?
And why would Harry's chance of surviving eliminated?


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  #986  
Old May 27th, 2013, 9:54 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I think DD relied on the prophecy a bit more than he let on and believed providence would assist the good in overcoming evil (which it did btw).
Do you think Dumbledore really relied upon the prophecy and Providence? Perhaps he relied upon the prophecy to distract Voldemort and to guide his decisions, but not to actually predetermine any events. To me, Dumbledore seems much more a believer in the power of will - isn't that why he was so irate with Harry? It is one's choices and actions - not what is expected of him, or prophecized about him - that dictate the future. I wonder if Dumbledore put much reliance upon "Providence" or divinity - it is an interesting point of discussion.
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Originally Posted by mirrormere
I think he might have, actually. The Forest of Dean is about 43 square miles. Phineas's information (which was a pure stroke of luck) would not have been of much help. It may be that the Headmaster of Hogwarts could track one of the Hogwarts snitches.
I wonder if Homenum Revelio could have worked, if Snape could cast it powerfully enough over strategic areas.


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Old May 27th, 2013, 10:06 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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. Did he even know about the scarcrux then?
I think DD knew about the scar by the time he left Harry on Petunia's doorstep. But certainly by CoS when DD says Harry knows Parseltongue because LV knows Parseltongue.

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And why would Harry's chance of surviving eliminated?
Because LV had to kill Harry himself because of sharing Lily's blood. If someone else had killed Harry, he would not have had the chance to return.


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Old May 27th, 2013, 10:15 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I think DD knew about the scar by the time he left Harry on Petunia's doorstep. But certainly by CoS when DD says Harry knows Parseltongue because LV knows Parseltongue.
I don't think Dumbledore necessarily "knew" about it because he didn't quite have the evidence for his Horcrux theory. At that point in the story, Dumbledore had little to no evidence that Voldemort had destabilized his soul by creating numerous Horcruxes. Thus, why would a presumably undivided soul break off and latch onto Harry's? It wouldn't make sense, so I think Dumbledore would have searched for other explanations. Of course, I do agree that the idea of Voldemort having rendered his soul so fragile was probably the most likely idea, but an unconfirmed one (which doesn't mean that Dumbledore would not have acted upon it, of course). Not until CoS and the discovery of Riddle's diary would Dumbledore be able to confirm that suspicion about multiple Horcruxes and, thus, the idea that, at the time of Harry's attempted murder, Voldemort's soul was so delicate that it did fracture and parasitize Harry's.


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Old May 27th, 2013, 11:30 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think Dumbledore really relied upon the prophecy and Providence?
I do.

Quote:
Perhaps he relied upon the prophecy to distract Voldemort and to guide his decisions, but not to actually predetermine any events.
Exactly! I think he saw it more as a gift and a sign that Providence was on the side of good and would assist in bringing LV down. (And he used it in OotP to distract LV.) I don't think he believed it predetermined anything. More in a sec.

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To me, Dumbledore seems much more a believer in the power of will - isn't that why he was so irate with Harry?
Sorry - when was DD irate with Harry?

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It is one's choices and actions - not what is expected of him, or prophecized about him - that dictate the future. I wonder if Dumbledore put much reliance upon "Providence" or divinity - it is an interesting point of discussion.
But why can't Providence use the choices and actions that individuals make to further the cause of good?

As I see it, DD suspected LV of possibly becoming a Dark Wizard from when the CoS was first opened in 1942 and may have surmised he was making horcruxes shortly thereafter, as he removes those books from the library when he becomes headmaster - though he does not destroy them. Over the years DD studies LV, collecting pertinent memories and watching him. He sets up the Order and actively opposes LV. Is it coincidence that the prophecy is given to the wizard at the forefront of the fight, the wizard who knows more about LV than anyone else in the world? Is it a coincidence that the prophecy is delivered so that a follower of LV is on hand to hear only part of that prophecy, causing it to come to pass and then that eavesdropper becomes an integral part of bringing the Dark Lord down?

After the prophecy was given to him I think DD shrewdly examined and then unstintingly used everything that chance brought his way.

Quote:
I wonder if Homenum Revelio could have worked, if Snape could cast it powerfully enough over strategic areas.
Possibly, but even if it could work at a further distance than normally, I think Snape would have needed to be nearby to see the result of the spell. It wouldn't remove the trees between him and the Trio.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I don't think Dumbledore necessarily "knew" about it because he didn't quite have the evidence for his Horcrux theory. At that point in the story, Dumbledore had little to no evidence that Voldemort had destabilized his soul by creating numerous Horcruxes. Thus, why would a presumably undivided soul break off and latch onto Harry's? It wouldn't make sense, so I think Dumbledore would have searched for other explanations. Of course, I do agree that the idea of Voldemort having rendered his soul so fragile was probably the most likely idea, but an unconfirmed one (which doesn't mean that Dumbledore would not have acted upon it, of course). Not until CoS and the discovery of Riddle's diary would Dumbledore be able to confirm that suspicion about multiple Horcruxes and, thus, the idea that, at the time of Harry's attempted murder, Voldemort's soul was so delicate that it did fracture and parasitize Harry's.
For DD to have his suspicion that LV was making horcruxes confirmed at the end of CoS, he had to have had that suspicion beforehand, but for how much longer beforehand?

When the Potter's were killed DD tells Snape that LV will return when everyone else, including most of his Death Eaters, believe him dead. He knows LV will return because he knows the Dark Lord has made horcruxes. DD also knows how horcruxes are made and the night he leaves Harry at the Dursleys he tells Mcgonagall that he wouldn't get rid of Harry's scar even if he could because "Scars can come in handy." I think he figured out fairly quickly that Harry was a horcrux.


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Old May 30th, 2013, 6:48 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan View Post
He never actually attempted to destroy Voldemort's body when dueling him (this would have made the later horcrux hunts much easier and his Death Eaters would have been defeated).
I think there were several reasons Dumbledore did not attempt to destroy Voldemort's body in the duel. One is the reason mentioned by mirrormere-- that Voldemort's rebirth using Harry's blood might actually help Harry survive. I also think that Dumbledore could not kill Voldemort permanently while Voldemort still had Horcruxes out there, and with Voldemort's loyal Death Eaters reorganized and now aware of what was needed to reconstitute a body for Voldy, that Dumbledore realized that destroying Voldy's body at the Ministry would amount to only a minor delay-- and worse, it would do nothing to dispel the Ministry's disbelief that Voldemort was alive and kicking and causing trouble. Because Dumbledore did not destroy Voldemort's body, the Ministry officials saw him, and the Wizarding World was finally warned about his rebirth, and Dumbledore was able to clear his name and regain his Headmaster and political positions.


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Old May 31st, 2013, 12:11 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Exactly! I think he saw it more as a gift and a sign that Providence was on the side of good and would assist in bringing LV down. (And he used it in OotP to distract LV.) I don't think he believed it predetermined anything.
I agree. i don't think Dumbledore took prophecy as predetermination, either. I think he believed that, if Voldemort took it seriously and inadvertently marked someone as his equal, it would give him a focus and Dumbledore a plan of action.


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  #992  
Old June 11th, 2013, 1:31 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I do.
I hope I did not sound confrontational: I was mostly posing the question rhetorically. I'm glad you've followed up with your intriguing insight. To me, bringing in the idea of Providence adds an interesting note of discussion in regards to religion, faith, and belief in the wizarding world (and Dumbledore's adherence to, or lack thereof).

I will say at the outset that my question was posed about the connectedness, in Dumbledore's mind, of the prophecy with Providence. I have no doubt that Dumbledore relied upon the prophecy, and much in the manner you elucidate.

It may also be helpful to describe what you refer to with "Providence": is it the more general reference to divine guidance/care, or specific to God's guidance over the world. While they mean similar things in regards to how Dumbledore laid out his plans, I think it brings the discussion into another realm of Dumbledore's spirituality.
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Originally Posted by mirrormere
Exactly! I think he saw it more as a gift and a sign that Providence was on the side of good and would assist in bringing LV down. (And he used it in OotP to distract LV.) I don't think he believed it predetermined anything. More in a sec.
Agreed in that he saw the prophecy as a gift (or tool, depending on his belief in Providence - which I question) that he could use to design Voldemort's downfall.
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Originally Posted by mirrormere
Sorry - when was DD irate with Harry?
Perhaps "irate" is a bit strong of a word to describe Dumbledore's frustration with Harry in HBP when Harry took the prophecy to be a predetermination:
HBP"But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says is only significant because Voldemort made it so. I told you this at the end of last year. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him--and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!"

"But it comes to the same --"

"No, it doesn't!" said Dumbledore, sounding impatient now. Pointing at Harry with his black, withered hand, he said, "You are setting too much store by the prophecy!"

"But," spluttered Harry, "but you said the prophecy means --"

"If Voldemort had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled? Would it have meant anything? Of course not! Do you think every prophecy in the Hall of Prophecy has been fulfilled?"

"But," said Harry, bewildered, "but last year, you said one of us would have to kill the other --"

"Harry, Harry, only because Voldemort made a grave error, and acted on Professor Trelawney's words! If Voldemort had never murdered your father, would he have imparted in you a furious desire for revenge? Of course not! If he had not forced your mother to die for you, would he have given you a magical protection he could not penetrate? Of course not, Harry! Don't you see? Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do!"
[...]
"But, sir," said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, "it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or --"

"Got to?" said Dumbledore. "Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried!"

We are both in agreement in that Dumbledore did not think the prophecy determined anything. This is the passage that, I think, definitively shows us that. And this is when he gets agitated with Harry because Harry takes the prophecy as a predetermination rather than sees the power of his own choices, will, and actions. But Harry understands at the end that the only reason the prophecy will come true is because it was acted upon (very much a "self-fulfilling prophecy" for Voldemort). If Voldemort had never acted upon the prophecy, he would never have targeted Harry and never created what would become his downfall.

It is clear from the passage above that Dumbledore knew this. So I completely agree with you that Dumbledore saw the potential of the prophecy. He knew enough about Tom Riddle to understand his rashness, his arrogance, his obsession for immortality and dominion. Thus, he likely knew that if Voldemort heard the prophecy and acted upon it then Voldemort would thereby create the perfect enemy to defeat him. So we are in agreement here. Skipping ahead now:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Is it coincidence that the prophecy is given to the wizard at the forefront of the fight, the wizard who knows more about LV than anyone else in the world? Is it a coincidence that the prophecy is delivered so that a follower of LV is on hand to hear only part of that prophecy, causing it to come to pass and then that eavesdropper becomes an integral part of bringing the Dark Lord down?
Here is the meat of this debate, in my opinion. Is Dumbledore investing in Providence, or is he really just relying upon his own mastermind (my argument)? I agree with you - it is not just coincidence. But Dumbledore does not strike me as someone who could rely upon divine guidance, or Providence. We see throughout the series how masterful Dumbledore is at crafting plans and seeing them through, largely, without too many hiccoughs. So why could he not have done the same in regards to the prophecy?

As I outline above, Dumbledore knew much about Tom Riddle by the time Riddle left Hogwarts. I would agree with mirrormere that he already had suspicions that Riddle had created or was going to create at least one Horcrux. Perhaps he even realized that Riddle was on course to become a powerful enough Dark wizard to rival Grindelwald's campaign. But he knew all this stuff by the time Voldemort's first reign began. At that point, he started the Order and actively fought for Voldemort's downfall. I wonder how many ways he thought of to ensure Voldemort's demise, but I'm sure there were plenty (just as with Sirius Black's entrance into the castle in PoA: Dumbledore had "Many [ideas], Severus, each of them as unlikely as the next.”"). I wouldn't doubt if Dumbledore had begun enacting some of these 'unlikely' plans in hopes that one would work. So I wouldn't say it was coincidence that Trelawney gave the prophecy to Dumbledore. Perhaps Dumbledore was looking for her to give him a prophecy. Perhaps it wasn't coincidence that Snape only passed on the part of the prophecy Dumbledore needed Voldemort to hear, and Dumbledore had actually manipulated to whole scene? After all, had Voldemort heard the entire prophecy, it would not be as much of a weapon against Voldemort as Dumbledore needed. And of all the eavesdroppers, was it just coincidence that it was Snape (the one Death Eater he thought he could manipulate)? Or did Dumbledore position Snape, in a way, to be the perfect eavesdropper for that situation (and the one he could assume Voldemort would choose)? The "perhaps-es" and "what-ifs" go on from there.

I realize this is very speculative, but I don't think this scenario is beyond the realm of plausibility. Dumbledore used the information in the prophecy incredibly specifically and effectively to result in Voldemort's death. He may have relied a little upon 'luck' and the actions of others along the way, but I can see Dumbledore putting faith in other people over in divine guidance. He always touted the significance of willpower and acting upon choices. Rather than trust that Providence would see those enacted choices through to the end, I think Dumbledore was, in a way, a step ahead: constantly figuring out the consequences of certain actions (e.g. if Harry did A, then Z would happen. But if Hermione did C, then Y would happen. But if Harry did B and Hermione did A, then Z would happen with 'x' effect). Much like a chess player, Dumbledore was always strategizing. Why rely upon Providence when Dumbledore could account for so many variables that he could all but guarantee an outcome? Now I'm making him into a mathematician, but I hope I'm getting my point across.

Basically, I see Dumbledore as someone whose intellect, strategy, and 'foresight' (more a mathematical foresight than a magical one) could guide him through his plans. Some may disagree with the powers of the mind that I'm giving him, but I think that the Dumbledore I describe is the one we see in the books. Thus, why would he rely upon Providence (or even chance, to an extent) when his own mind and trust in others were just as good? It is an interesting idea, and I would love to hear some feedback.

The big difference between my and mirrormere's perspective (and I am not even overly adherent to my own, given its speculative and 'devil's advocate' nature) is that I believe Dumbledore (in one way or another) accounted for those 'coincidences' whereas mirrormere claims Providence accounted for them and that Dumbledore had faith that Providence would continue to guide him/illuminate his next steps. (I know I used "Dumbledure relied upon Providence" quite a bit above, but that was more of a shorthand version . And please correct me if I have your perspective wrong.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
But why can't Providence use the choices and actions that individuals make to further the cause of good?
I do not think Dumbledore would have believed Providence could "further" anything. Rather, he believed people (and other beings, etc.) were responsible for that movement. Again, it comes down to our own perspectives of Providence and what we think Dumbledore's own spirituality was. Without getting too controversial into religion, I have summarily (and apparently - I haven't really given this my full deliberation yet!) cast Dumbledore much like a Deist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
After the prophecy was given to him I think DD shrewdly examined and then unstintingly used everything that chance brought his way.
I agree. And I do not mean to imply that Dumbledore did not rely upon luck and chance - to an extent. For the most part, I think he played his cards perfectly (and realized he had done so), he put his trust in the right people, and "let things happen." But I do not think he relied on chance overly much. That is a big distinction I draw between Dumbledore and Voldemort. Where Dumbledore realized the powers of old magic, logic, and trust, Voldemort was much more impulsive. He saw all of Harry's triumphs as his own oversights, luck, accidents, chance. But Dumbledore (and Harry) did not see them as accidents. While some of them may have been chance encounters and luck, everything happened within the confines of a very strict strategy planned out by Dumbledore, and it all worked to perfection. I think Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" is a perfect indication of one of those latent plans that was successful in a (possibly) unexpected way. It reminds me of mirrormere's discussion about how she saw the Triwizard Tournament as more of Dumbledore's plan than Voldemort's - and I think she is right in regards to that. That is how Dumbledore operated, and it is independent of destiny, Providence, or chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Possibly, but even if it could work at a further distance than normally, I think Snape would have needed to be nearby to see the result of the spell. It wouldn't remove the trees between him and the Trio.
Oh, I agree. But if he could cast it powerfully enough that it could reveal human presence within 5 or 10 acres, the amount of time it would take him to find Harry would be considerably reduced. But one wonders if he could have circumvented Harry and Hermione's enchantments, and if he couldn't then Homenum Revelio would clearly not have worked.


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  #993  
Old June 12th, 2013, 8:04 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I hope I did not sound confrontational: I was mostly posing the question rhetorically.
Not at all! (I’m going to miss you, MrSleepyHead. Sniff.)

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I'm glad you've followed up with your intriguing insight. To me, bringing in the idea of Providence adds an interesting note of discussion in regards to religion, faith, and belief in the wizarding world (and Dumbledore's adherence to, or lack thereof).
We’re really not given a clear idea of DD’s take on religion either way. The author is Christian and uses Christian themes (giving one’s life for friends, resurrection, repentance, redemption, etc) but in such a general way that many of those themes could fit into other belief systems as well. My sense of DD’s belief in Providence is that it is more intuitive than formalized and is woven into the power of magic.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I will say at the outset that my question was posed about the connectedness, in Dumbledore's mind, of the prophecy with Providence. I have no doubt that Dumbledore relied upon the prophecy, and much in the manner you elucidate.

It may also be helpful to describe what you refer to with "Providence": is it the more general reference to divine guidance/care, or specific to God's guidance over the world. While they mean similar things in regards to how Dumbledore laid out his plans, I think it brings the discussion into another realm of Dumbledore's spirituality.
The books seem to take a more general reference to the concept, and I think DD’s character is drawn consistent with that theme. With the exception of quick sketches of Christmas celebrations, formalized religion is not really recognized. But it seems to me that there is an underlying power, be it nature, God, magic or love (what I term Providence for want of a convenient term) that is working behind the scenes to nudge the scales in favor of the good – but only because there are people who still choose the good. This is why, when coincidences occur that favor the good guys, it doesn’t feel out of place to me. A similar thing happens at the end of Tolkien’s Return of the King – after all Frodo does to destroy it, he cannot cast the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom; but because of the terrible tribulation he has gone through to do the right thing, Providence steps in and destroys the ring. I think this concept occurs, to some degree, throughout the HP books, but Harry winding up with the Elder Wand at the end is completely a twist of fate and not something that DD had intended but that Providence furnished.

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Agreed in that he saw the prophecy as a gift (or tool, depending on his belief in Providence - which I question) that he could use to design Voldemort's downfall.
One of the significant indicators for me that DD was constantly on the lookout for gifts/tools furnished by Providence is his reaction to Aberforth catching Snape listening at the keyhole: he lets Snape go, memories intact. He himself has just heard the prophecy, yet he is able to nearly instantly understand that for the prophecy to come to pass, LV needs to hear of it.

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Perhaps "irate" is a bit strong of a word to describe Dumbledore's frustration with Harry in HBP when Harry took the prophecy to be a predetermination:
HBP"But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says is only significant because Voldemort made it so. I told you this at the end of last year. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him--and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!"

"But it comes to the same --"

"No, it doesn't!" said Dumbledore, sounding impatient now. Pointing at Harry with his black, withered hand, he said, "You are setting too much store by the prophecy!"

"But," spluttered Harry, "but you said the prophecy means --"

"If Voldemort had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled? Would it have meant anything? Of course not! Do you think every prophecy in the Hall of Prophecy has been fulfilled?"

"But," said Harry, bewildered, "but last year, you said one of us would have to kill the other --"

"Harry, Harry, only because Voldemort made a grave error, and acted on Professor Trelawney's words! If Voldemort had never murdered your father, would he have imparted in you a furious desire for revenge? Of course not! If he had not forced your mother to die for you, would he have given you a magical protection he could not penetrate? Of course not, Harry! Don't you see? Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do!"
[...]
"But, sir," said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, "it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or --"

"Got to?" said Dumbledore. "Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried!"
We are both in agreement in that Dumbledore did not think the prophecy determined anything. This is the passage that, I think, definitively shows us that.
For the most part I do agree but I think there is a subtle difference. I think DD is attempting to give Harry another perspective on events in order to bolster his confidence and conviction. But his spin on things does not negate the effect of the prophecy:

"But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says is only significant because Voldemort made it so.”

A different perspective does not invalidate the fact that Voldemort did make the prophecy significant. Because of LV’s actions, the prophecy is in force.

"If Voldemort had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled? Would it have meant anything? Of course not!

But Voldemort did hear the prophecy and because he did and because he acted upon it, the prophecy now means everything. What DD wants Harry to know is that he is not helpless in the face of the prophecy – that he does have a choice in the matter: he has the choice of his own attitude and perspective.

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And this is when he gets agitated with Harry because Harry takes the prophecy as a predetermination rather than sees the power of his own choices, will, and actions. But Harry understands at the end that the only reason the prophecy will come true is because it was acted upon (very much a "self-fulfilling prophecy" for Voldemort). If Voldemort had never acted upon the prophecy, he would never have targeted Harry and never created what would become his downfall.
But DD firmly believes what the prophecy says and bases all his plans on the fact that it is true: that the one LV chooses will vanquish him; that Harry will have a power that the Dark Lord knows not (which is, I think, ultimately the clue that helps DD save Harry), that Harry will have to defeat Voldemort. Harry has no choice – he will have to face LV because the Dark Lord will hunt him down. Where Harry does have a choice is in how he perceives that confrontation and his own actions: Harry will go after LV on his own, head held high, and that makes all the difference in the world.

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Here is the meat of this debate, in my opinion. Is Dumbledore investing in Providence, or is he really just relying upon his own mastermind (my argument)?
Both! Luck favors the prepared.

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I agree with you - it is not just coincidence. But Dumbledore does not strike me as someone who could rely upon divine guidance, or Providence.
Did DD sit back and just let Providence do all the work? No. He did everything in his power to work with and take advantage of anything that came his way.

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We see throughout the series how masterful Dumbledore is at crafting plans and seeing them through, largely, without too many hiccoughs. So why could he not have done the same in regards to the prophecy?
The prophecy gives DD information that he could not have sussed out himself: when the vanquisher will be born, for one – that’s very specific; that he would have a power the Dark Lord knew not, for another. This is a prophecy; it gives advanced knowledge that the hearer doesn’t know.

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I wouldn't doubt if Dumbledore had begun enacting some of these 'unlikely' plans in hopes that one would work. So I wouldn't say it was coincidence that Trelawney gave the prophecy to Dumbledore. Perhaps Dumbledore was looking for her to give him a prophecy.
DD was going to drop Divination from the Hogwarts curriculum after interviewing Trelawney. I don’t think he was necessarily expecting a prophecy.

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Perhaps it wasn't coincidence that Snape only passed on the part of the prophecy Dumbledore needed Voldemort to hear, and Dumbledore had actually manipulated to whole scene? After all, had Voldemort heard the entire prophecy, it would not be as much of a weapon against Voldemort as Dumbledore needed. And of all the eavesdroppers, was it just coincidence that it was Snape (the one Death Eater he thought he could manipulate)? Or did Dumbledore position Snape, in a way, to be the perfect eavesdropper for that situation (and the one he could assume Voldemort would choose)? The "perhaps-es" and "what-ifs" go on from there.
Although I have a confirmed penchant for suspecting much more plotting on DD’s part than most, I would have a hard time seeing how DD could set this up. And where would he get the info about when the vanquisher would be born? The thrice-defying parents? The power the Dark Lord knew not?

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I realize this is very speculative, but I don't think this scenario is beyond the realm of plausibility. Dumbledore used the information in the prophecy incredibly specifically and effectively to result in Voldemort's death. He may have relied a little upon 'luck' and the actions of others along the way, but I can see Dumbledore putting faith in other people over in divine guidance. He always touted the significance of willpower and acting upon choices. Rather than trust that Providence would see those enacted choices through to the end, I think Dumbledore was, in a way, a step ahead: constantly figuring out the consequences of certain actions (e.g. if Harry did A, then Z would happen. But if Hermione did C, then Y would happen. But if Harry did B and Hermione did A, then Z would happen with 'x' effect). Much like a chess player, Dumbledore was always strategizing. Why rely upon Providence when Dumbledore could account for so many variables that he could all but guarantee an outcome? Now I'm making him into a mathematician, but I hope I'm getting my point across.
Mathematician or Arithmancer?

I agree DD was always strategizing and I don’t believe he relied exclusively on Providence, but in his schemes, though plotted very well, I think he felt, after all he and his fellow Order members did, that luck would favor the good. I think he expected that aid and actually the only time it failed him was in the case of the Elder Wand and then it stepped in and pulled out a win anyway.

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Basically, I see Dumbledore as someone whose intellect, strategy, and 'foresight' (more a mathematical foresight than a magical one) could guide him through his plans. Some may disagree with the powers of the mind that I'm giving him, but I think that the Dumbledore I describe is the one we see in the books. Thus, why would he rely upon Providence (or even chance, to an extent) when his own mind and trust in others were just as good? It is an interesting idea, and I would love to hear some feedback.
Although I think DD’s intellect prodigious and his capacity for scheming near endless, I don’t see how he could invent the elements of the prophecy. But what I do see is a man who would use anything that came his way to further his cause and that he expected those things to be sent his way, though could not always guess what they would be. Rather a “the universe will provide” time of perspective.

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The big difference between my and mirrormere's perspective (and I am not even overly adherent to my own, given its speculative and 'devil's advocate' nature) is that I believe Dumbledore (in one way or another) accounted for those 'coincidences' whereas mirrormere claims Providence accounted for them and that Dumbledore had faith that Providence would continue to guide him/illuminate his next steps. (I know I used "Dumbledure relied upon Providence" quite a bit above, but that was more of a shorthand version . And please correct me if I have your perspective wrong.)
Again, I don’t believe DD invented the prophecy or charmed Trelawney into divulging it at the precise moment Snape was there to hear it; I think it was a supernatural (magical) event that imparted info (and subsequently provoked LV’s actions) that DD could not have known otherwise. I see that as Providence.

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I do not think Dumbledore would have believed Providence could "further" anything.
I respectfully disagree. I believe the prophecy was sent by Providence (as I have tentatively defined above) to further DD’s cause by giving him information he could not have even guessed at. It’s upon the prophecy that he bases all of his plans thereafter. The prophecy was not given to LV, which would have warned him. It was given to the good side under precisely the right conditions (with Snape listening at the door) to ensure its fulfillment. And if not by Providence, from whence did the prophecy come?

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Rather, he believed people (and other beings, etc.) were responsible for that movement. Again, it comes down to our own perspectives of Providence and what we think Dumbledore's own spirituality was. Without getting too controversial into religion, I have summarily (and apparently - I haven't really given this my full deliberation yet!) cast Dumbledore much like a Deist.
I can see that – with the exception that DD believed in prophecy. Or at least one prophecy.

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I agree. And I do not mean to imply that Dumbledore did not rely upon luck and chance - to an extent. For the most part, I think he played his cards perfectly (and realized he had done so), he put his trust in the right people, and "let things happen."
But what “cards” are you referring to? I see these cards – the prophecy, Harry, Snape (“I am fortunate, extremely fortunate, that I have you, Severus”), Fawkes, the twin cores, etc as all dealt to DD by Providence and which he uses to great effect.

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But I do not think he relied on chance overly much. That is a big distinction I draw between Dumbledore and Voldemort. Where Dumbledore realized the powers of old magic, logic, and trust, Voldemort was much more impulsive. He saw all of Harry's triumphs as his own oversights, luck, accidents, chance. But Dumbledore (and Harry) did not see them as accidents. While some of them may have been chance encounters and luck, everything happened within the confines of a very strict strategy planned out by Dumbledore, and it all worked to perfection.
I agree that DD did not rely on chance, I’m only saying he took great advantage whenever chance put a gift in his path and he recognized those gifts as coming from the good.

And I agree LV was impulsive. But he was also right. Harry’s triumphs were due to LV’s own oversights, as DD points out repeatedly, Harry’s luck and, as LV explains, DD “pulling the strings.”

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I think Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" is a perfect indication of one of those latent plans that was successful in a (possibly) unexpected way. It reminds me of mirrormere's discussion about how she saw the Triwizard Tournament as more of Dumbledore's plan than Voldemort's - and I think she is right in regards to that. That is how Dumbledore operated, and it is independent of destiny, Providence, or chance.
But in this example, I think, is the most significant case of where DD did hope that Providence would intervene, on several levels. DD set up the Tournament to lure LV into kidnapping Harry – he had no way of knowing or insuring that the Dark Lord would take the bait. It was quite a gamble, as Harry could have been killed outright.

And here’s an interesting tidbit about that “gleam of triumph” that I think adds to my theory that DD planned for LV to abscond with Harry:
GoF: The Parting of the Ways When Harry told of Wormtail piercing his arm with the dagger, however, Sirius let out a vehement exclamation and Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started. Dumbledore walked around the desk and told Harry to stretch out his arm. Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn and the cut beneath them.

“He said my blood would make him stronger than if he’d used someone else’s,” Harry told Dumbledore. “He said the protection my — my mother left in me — he’d have it too. And he was right — he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.”

For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him
Note that this “gleam” doesn’t occur when DD finds out that LV used Harry’s blood to reincarnate. It occurs just after he finds out that LV could touch Harry without hurting himself! DD already knows that LV wanted to use Harry’s blood – he set things up for LV to do precisely that, no surprise there. What DD needs confirmation of, and what sets that gleam off, is that Lily’s blood protection has indeed been transferred to LV and, therefore, Harry now has a chance to survive the death of his own horcrux.

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Oh, I agree. But if he could cast it powerfully enough that it could reveal human presence within 5 or 10 acres, the amount of time it would take him to find Harry would be considerably reduced. But one wonders if he could have circumvented Harry and Hermione's enchantments, and if he couldn't then Homenum Revelio would clearly not have worked.
Hmm. If Homenum Revelio could penetrate the Trio’s protective charms (which I’m doubting), Snape still has to cover about 27,200 acres (640 acres/square mile X 42.5 square miles). If he was able to expand the power of the charm to cover 10 acres, he has to cast that charm 2,720 times (well, unless he’s lucky). And has to quickly cover the distance over the grid he is searching. Even though we know Snape can fly and is a powerful wizard, I’m still thinking this isn’t possible for him to do. He couldn’t leave the school for that long. That’s why I think Black’s information is actually a red herring; since it’s nearly useless and entirely a chance event that neither DD nor Snape could have predicted or counted on. How would have Snape found Harry to relay DD’s message at the end? He would have need to do that quickly. I don’t think it is something DD would have left to chance. I think Snape could track the snitch DD bequeathed to Harry. imo.


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  #994  
Old June 13th, 2013, 3:30 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Hmm. If Homenum Revelio could penetrate the Trio’s protective charms (which I’m doubting), Snape still has to cover about 27,200 acres (640 acres/square mile X 42.5 square miles). If he was able to expand the power of the charm to cover 10 acres, he has to cast that charm 2,720 times (well, unless he’s lucky). And has to quickly cover the distance over the grid he is searching. Even though we know Snape can fly and is a powerful wizard, I’m still thinking this isn’t possible for him to do. He couldn’t leave the school for that long. That’s why I think Black’s information is actually a red herring; since it’s nearly useless and entirely a chance event that neither DD nor Snape could have predicted or counted on. How would have Snape found Harry to relay DD’s message at the end? He would have need to do that quickly. I don’t think it is something DD would have left to chance. I think Snape could track the snitch DD bequeathed to Harry. imo. n is actually a red herring; since it’s nearly useless and entirely a chance event that neither DD nor Snape could have predicted or counted on. How would have Snape found Harry to relay DD’s message at the end? He would have need to do that quickly. I don’t think it is something DD would have left to chance. I think Snape could track the snitch DD bequeathed to Harry. imo.
I don't think Phineas Nigellus's (sp?) information was a red herring. That part was shown in "The Prince's Tale", near the end of DH, and no other information was given after that revealing a different means of locating Harry. Red herrings are just there to mislead, but what would be the point at the end of the series, and from what would it be misleading the readers, and why? Yes, the information about Harry's whereabouts were gained through pure chance-- one of the things that drives me up the wall about Dumbledore's supposed brilliant planning abilities. Then I think Snape went to the Forest of Dean and cast his Patronusgram-thingy, and it searched around until it found Harry, and then lead Harry to the spot where Snape hid by the pool. I don't think Snape had any other means to find Harry.

Which of course doesn't make much sense, given Dumbledore's stated plans. Why did Dumbledore not simply give Snape the Deluminator?? I think Dumbledore must have had some plan to give Snape a means to find Harry, that Dumbledore never got around to doing, just like he never got around to showing Harry how to destroy a Horcrux. I think Dumbledore was too confident that he would make it to the end of term without being killed, and so he failed to set up some of his final plans before the end.


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Last edited by OldMotherCrow; June 13th, 2013 at 3:47 am. Reason: had to leave, came back, saw nonsensical sentences
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  #995  
Old June 13th, 2013, 10:27 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I don't think Phineas Nigellus's (sp?) information was a red herring. That part was shown in "The Prince's Tale", near the end of DH, and no other information was given after that revealing a different means of locating Harry. Red herrings are just there to mislead, but what would be the point at the end of the series, and from what would it be misleading the readers, and why?
Yes, I think the information we are given in Snape's memories are the whole truth. That is my impression of the purpose of that chapter.



Quote:
Yes, the information about Harry's whereabouts were gained through pure chance-- one of the things that drives me up the wall about Dumbledore's supposed brilliant planning abilities. Then I think Snape went to the Forest of Dean and cast his Patronusgram-thingy, and it searched around until it found Harry, and then lead Harry to the spot where Snape hid by the pool. I don't think Snape had any other means to find Harry.
That to me is the most plausable explaination, as we know a Patronus can be used as a messenger and so must have some way of finding people. So I also think that it was through his Patronus that Snape found Harry.


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Old June 13th, 2013, 12:44 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
And has to quickly cover the distance over the grid he is searching. Even though we know Snape can fly and is a powerful wizard, I’m still thinking this isn’t possible for him to do. He couldn’t leave the school for that long. That’s why I think Black’s information is actually a red herring; since it’s nearly useless and entirely a chance event that neither DD nor Snape could have predicted or counted on. How would have Snape found Harry to relay DD’s message at the end? He would have need to do that quickly. I don’t think it is something DD would have left to chance.
Heh, he did leave plenty of things up to chance though. If Snape hadn't been killed by Nagini but by the killing curse, Harry would have never gotten to see those memories. It was pure luck that Harry found Snape in time, just like other things which Dumbledore was supposed to have planned for were pure luck as well. I don't think his plan was all that detailed. Snape was given a task (give Harry the memories) but Dumbledore never told him how to find Harry. I'm not saying that he should have, after all, Snape is a smart man, he would have found a way (though it makes me wonder why he waited so long).

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I think Snape could track the snitch DD bequeathed to Harry. imo.
It's a possibility but there isn't really any canon to back it up, IIRC.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Which of course doesn't make much sense, given Dumbledore's stated plans. Why did Dumbledore not simply give Snape the Deluminator?? I think Dumbledore must have had some plan to give Snape a means to find Harry, that Dumbledore never got around to doing, just like he never got around to showing Harry how to destroy a Horcrux. I think Dumbledore was too confident that he would make it to the end of term without being killed, and so he failed to set up some of his final plans before the end.
Yes, there were so many things Dumbledore should have done before he died. He spent the entire year telling Harry something he could have told him in half an hour: Voldemort split his soul and put bits of it into objects from the founders. The fact that Voldemort was defeated in the end was just serendipity, IMO, and tons of authorial help.


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Old June 16th, 2013, 7:25 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Yes, there were so many things Dumbledore should have done before he died. He spent the entire year telling Harry something he could have told him in half an hour: Voldemort split his soul and put bits of it into objects from the founders. The fact that Voldemort was defeated in the end was just serendipity, IMO, and tons of authorial help.
I disagree that half an hour could cover everything. There were things Dumbledore didn't know at first, such as, did Slughorn inadvertently give/receive any info about Riddle and horcruxes that would clarify what needed to be done, and was it safe for Dumbledore to simply kill Voldemort? Also, given how young Harry was experience-wise (not to mention his tendency to act before thinking at times), Dumbledore was correct to give Harry as much information as possible, in a way that would help him understand fully as possible. Seeing the memories including Riddle's behavior and actions would help Harry know much more about his opponent as well as horcruxes.


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Old June 16th, 2013, 7:54 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I disagree that half an hour could cover everything. There were things Dumbledore didn't know at first, such as, did Slughorn inadvertently give/receive any info about Riddle and horcruxes that would clarify what needed to be done, and was it safe for Dumbledore to simply kill Voldemort? Also, given how young Harry was experience-wise (not to mention his tendency to act before thinking at times), Dumbledore was correct to give Harry as much information as possible, in a way that would help him understand fully as possible. Seeing the memories including Riddle's behavior and actions would help Harry know much more about his opponent as well as horcruxes.
I think Harry gets Dumbledore and the way he works right at the beginning in PS/SS.

'I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he taught us enough to help.' (PS/SS, The Man With Two Faces)

I think Dumbledore worked on the military strategy of, 'know your enemy.'

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."- Sun Tzu, The Art of War



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Old June 16th, 2013, 9:02 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Seeing the memories including Riddle's behavior and actions would help Harry know much more about his opponent as well as horcruxes.
Certainly, I won't deny getting to know your enemy is important. Is that going to win you the battle? Not really. The problem isn't that Dumbledore told Harry all those things, the problem is they never got the chance to discuss more relevant things, like how Horcruxes can be destroyed or how you should go about finding them, for example. If the rest of the Horcruxes had been protected as well as the rest of the Horcruxes, how would Harry have handled that? It was just pure luck that the other Horcruxes were easier to find and destroy, because nothing that Dumbledore told Harry would have helped him deal with the powerful dark magic Voldemort was likely to use.


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Old June 16th, 2013, 9:33 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Certainly, I won't deny getting to know your enemy is important. Is that going to win you the battle? Not really.
I think you underestimate the value in knowing how your enemy thinks. Dumbledore always had a psychological advantage over Riddle/Voldemort because he took the time to observe and know him well, and Voldy knew that. TreacleTart gave a fine quote from The Art of War. Here is another from General Patton in WWII as he out maneuvers General Rommel:

Spoiler: show

“Rommel, you magnificent *******! I read your book! ”
― George S. Patton Jr.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena
The problem isn't that Dumbledore told Harry all those things, the problem is they never got the chance to discuss more relevant things, like how Horcruxes can be destroyed or how you should go about finding them, for example. If the rest of the Horcruxes had been protected as well as the rest of the Horcruxes, how would Harry have handled that? It was just pure luck that the other Horcruxes were easier to find and destroy, because nothing that Dumbledore told Harry would have helped him deal with the powerful dark magic Voldemort was likely to use.
Actually, Dumbledore did discuss what type of objects Voldemort was likely to have used for his horcruxes. Discussing and showing Harry what was important to Voldemort helped Harry discover where they might look. With the exception of the Ring -- which being a Gaunt heirloom as a true line of Slytherin, that Riddle cursed because he likely felt no one but a Slytherin should ever put it on -- the magic protecting it seems the strength of the horcrux spell itself and of course the soul-piece. Voldemort felt to the end that his own intelligence and cleverness could not possibly be figured out by "ordinary" wizarding folk. And Dumbledore also left Harry the Sword in his will, which didn't work out because of Ministry interference.


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