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Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2



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  #1  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 7:20 pm
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Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

List of threads related to this topic:
  • For discussion on JK Rowling's revelations and the impact on the HP community, please go to this thread.
  • To debate the character of Albus Dumbledore, please go to this thread
  • If you wish to discuss the relationship between Dumbledore and Grindelwald, you may wish to pop into this thread


Version 1 of this thread was closed to we could restart the debate with a clearer outline of what this thread is all about.

Homosexuality in the Harry Potter universe

This thread is for people to discuss the issue of homosexuality in the magical world. Participants should discuss the wide-ranging questions below and provide ideas and suggestions of their own about how homosexuality is regarded.



1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay? (Not every character is going to be gay, so try to give believable evidence against wishful evidence)

3. Do you believe that magic offers new avenues of approach in regards to philosophical and scientific thought? If so, is it possible that homosexuality is less of a cultural issue than in the Muggle world or would wizards and witches simply find a new way to discriminate regardless?

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?


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  #2  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 7:22 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Yay! We can keep going. Once again I still love HP even with a gay Dumbledore.... he was a usually upbeat happy guy anyhow right?


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  #3  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 7:41 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?

I would say it definitely is a bigger issue than sexuality, seeing as even grown men (Mr. Malfoy) use insults based on social standing, and the biggest issue there is blood status, while we have no mention of homosexuality whatsoever by any character (Dudley is a Muggle so he doesn't count).

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?

IF gay people are subjects to discrimination in the wizarding world at all, otherwise, no. I start to think there is less prejudice about sexuality in that world, because 1. there's no mention of it at all, even as deregotary slander used by adolescents; 2. racist and sexist isuues also seem non-existent, or at least less of an issue than in the real world; 3. I think Jo did mean the blood genda to stand for discrimination and prejudice in general.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 7:42 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?

I think that this would pretty much be the same with other prejudice that we have seen in the series (such as the pure-blood mania). I think that children would take on their parents views, until at least they are better informed so that they can make a decision on their outlook themselves.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?

I'm not sure. They probably wouldn't go shouting it from the rooftops in any case, not saying that anyone should be ashamed of their sexual orientation, because they shouldn't. However, as for in a school situation, I don't believe we have enough - if any - evidence to assume anything.

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?

Well, from what we can see, yes the social standing is more important than sexuality. However, as it hasn't been discovered in the books we cannot be sure. I assume that because the emphasis has been placed on class rather than sexuality. Of course, I could be woefully wrong.

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?

I think that blood status would still count for more. However, I believe there will always be those few that don't believe in being homosexual so will discriminate it. For those individuals I believe they would enforce an even greater amount of discrimination on a gay muggle-born.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:03 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I have a question - did we JUST find out from JK that Dumbledore was gay? Or were there hints and clues in the books that could have led some to that conclusion?


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:05 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manisa View Post
I have a question - did we JUST find out from JK that Dumbledore was gay? Or were there hints and clues in the books that could have led some to that conclusion?
well .... some will say there were clues and that they knew .... but actual examination of the text leaves little to be got.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:07 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2


1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?


Yes, I was surprised. It never struck me that it was possible because none of the teachers have any "love affairs". We never hear about husbands/wives.
It doesn't change anything : Dumbledore guided Harry, he filled 'the wise old man' place in HP.

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay? (Not every character is going to be gay, so try to give believable evidence against wishful evidence)

It'd be great if Sirius and Remus were but ... I doubt it. No one important.

3. Do you believe that magic offers new avenues of approach in regards to philosophical and scientific thought? If so, is it possible that homosexuality is less of a cultural issue than in the Muggle world or would wizards and witches simply find a new way to discriminate regardless?

I hoped wizards would be above that... but probably not. It was probably a big image-degrading issue or there would have been a gay student. In public.

4. In regards to education, JK Rowling has indicated that children learn a lot at home before they're of Hogwarts age. How would this long-term parental teaching affect social outlook do you think?


Most kids have their parents opions and Muggle opions before really becoming part of the wizarding world. Bad parent opions = bad kid opions, bad Muggle opions = bad wizard opions.

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?


We're delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories. We mustn't forget that these are children's stories, or were meant to be, and kids as little as six or seven probably read the books and thought "ewwww gross"
And why all the long complicated words??!!

5. Judging by the differing classes of the books - the working class Weasley Family, opposed by the upper class Malfoy Family - do you consider that class and social standing are more important than sexuality?

Yes. Wizards make a big issue about blood-status and worry much less about love. Most pure-blood wizards want to keep their children from marrying lesser blood status witches/wizards so blood is thicker that love.
Poor Sirius é_è lol I write these words thinking of him ^^

5a. JK Rowling uses blood-status as a way of merging all types of discrimination under one ceiling. Simply being born to a mother and father of lesser standing is an age old discrimination from an historical perspective. That would suggest that a gay half-blood or a gay muggle-born would be subject to greater discrimination, would you say?

Yes. Not popular dicision + not popular parentage = not good ... It'd work in the same in this world. A gay person being fat or something would be teased more than a fat person or a gay person ...


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:07 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manisa View Post
I have a question - did we JUST find out from JK that Dumbledore was gay? Or were there hints and clues in the books that could have led some to that conclusion?
We were given the answer by JKR in her USA tour. The interview and information from that interview is here.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:07 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manisa View Post
I have a question - did we JUST find out from JK that Dumbledore was gay? Or were there hints and clues in the books that could have led some to that conclusion?
It was officially announced in an interview on Saturday. Link here Leaky Cauldron . But not stated explicit in the books. But like said above, some people saw hints some not.

Edit: Loony beat me.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:08 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manisa View Post
I have a question - did we JUST find out from JK that Dumbledore was gay? Or were there hints and clues in the books that could have led some to that conclusion?
There are widely different views about whether there were any clues. I personally did not notice any.

His relationship with Grindelwald, strictly in light of DH, seemd to me to fit the pattern of just an intense friendship, the kind of thing that happens, expecially with lonely adolescents, and is not necessary sexual at all.

I don't see anything else. But others have a different view, I believe.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:28 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

1. The fact that Dumbledore is gay adds a whole new dimension to his character and to the story. Were you surprised? Does it really change anything?

Dumbledore will always be the same old Dumbledore but now just a deeper old Dumbledore. I love the fact that he is gay and that he is gay is not relevant to the story just because it doesn't matter who you love or what you love, it does matter that you are able to love. I was surprised even thoug I had actually thought about that a possibility that he was gay but then again... it is Dumbledore we are talking about! I really hope that our beloved Rowling will be so nice to put a loooong chapter about Dumbledore in the Enclydopedia. What it changes is just the fact that Dumbledore is gay, not asexual or hetrosexual. Just, he is gay.

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay?


Well, there must be some... other... gay... persons in the books... right?

3. Do you believe that the Magical World has a more well-developed understanding of "chemical attraction" and thus negating any issue of sexuality? In other words, physical attraction is more than simply genetics, but could in fact be magical and therefore a non issue?

No. I really think that they wouldn't have any understanding of the subject at all. Look at how they treated Lupins "furry, little problem". He couldn't get job, was to frightened of his own son that he fled. Why would they treat a gay person any diffrently? The magic community is not as open minded as they ought to be.

4. The issue of a wizard's/witch's blood status was a major cause of indifference before Voldemort's downfall. With that in mind, would being gay make much of a difference or is it simply who you are born to that makes the big difference?

Yeah, if blood status does matter, then being gay does matter. Sorry:/

4a. Once at Hogwarts, a gay student may find his or herself in the middle of a lot of prejudice, yet there's little to suggest that sexual orientation is an issue. Is this an accurate assessment or are we delving into realms unexplored thus far by the stories?

I think that being gay in wizard community is a big issue. Look at Lupin's furry little problem... I think that they don't talk about it, at least not at this point, this time. At the same time in the muggle world (80's-90's) Freddie Mercury was to frightned to come out of the closet and admit that he was sick, with AIDs and dying... I don't think that the wizarding community is very different from ours. It is actually fighting about things that muggle community was fightin about 50-100 years ago- blood.

I am very proud of Rowling to let Dumbledore come out of the closet. Even though I would have prefered to see it in the book, just in the very end that he loved Gellert or something or even a little bit "smaller" hints (common, knitting patterns for christs sake... hint- right). But the fact that Dumbledore is gay will help many people. Just the plain fact that one of the most beloved character in literature is gay, not because it matter, just beause he is, is just beautiful. Yes, beautiful. The same evening that I discovered Dumbledore sudden gayness my sister came out of the closet and introduced me to her girlfriend. Well thank you Jo!


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:36 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

The only thing that changes for me about DD's character is that I never thought of him as a sexual person (straight or gay). I thought his true love to be Hogwart's and teaching.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:41 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manisa View Post
I have a question - did we JUST find out from JK that Dumbledore was gay? Or were there hints and clues in the books that could have led some to that conclusion?
I was looking through other forums since I knew he was discussed as potential gay character among fans long before JK revealed it and partly before Deathly Hallow came out. The latter just seemed to confirm some speculations. Basically the arguments people brought up before Jo told us he's gay circled in several variations around:

- Dumbledore's passion for Gellert (also a maybe better explanation for why he needed so long to see his dark truth)
- Dumbledore's way to dress
- Doge's passion for Dumbledore
- no hint to a marriage (also valid for Doge and Grindelwald)

Sure, such hints may could be considered as stereotypes, but we've seen this in the series before. I personally never thought he really is homosexual (and was greatly wrong ), because I always thought there could have been many reasons for JK to let him appear this way in style, actions and friendships.

Still there have been these hints which made quite a few fans believing they could hint to Dumbedore's sexuality as well. For all who ever discussed it - if believing in the theories or not - JK's revelation couldn't come as surprise.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:41 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by irpa View Post
Dumbledore will always be the same old Dumbledore but now just a deeper old Dumbledore. I love the fact that he is gay and that he is gay is not relevant to the story just because it doesn't matter who you love or what you love, it does matter that you are able to love. I was surprised even thoug I had actually thought about that a possibility that he was gay but then again... it is Dumbledore we are talking about! I really hope that our beloved Rowling will be so nice to put a loooong chapter about Dumbledore in the Enclydopedia. What it changes is just the fact that Dumbledore is gay, not asexual or hetrosexual. Just, he is gay.
I love the way you articulated your answer. You are completely right - what matters is the fact that Dumbledore can love, and that should be cherished - just another one of JKR's principles being brought through. What you said really made me realise that we shouldn't care that Dumbledore was homosexual, but the fact that Dumbledore could love. Thank you

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Edit: Loony beat me.
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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:42 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by TAIALINCICOME View Post
The only thing that changes for me about DD's character is that I never thought of him as a sexual person (straight or gay). I thought his true love to be Hogwart's and teaching.
This maybe is true as well. I don't think him being homosexual excludes that he found bigger asexual loves later in life.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 8:56 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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- Dumbledore's way to dress
That was the first hint I saw and his liking of knitting and other woman issues etc. Also his open minded behaviour.

The whole Doge/Grindelwald issue I still can't see. Need to re-read the book.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 9:01 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

2. Do you believe we have met any other characters in the story that might be gay? (Not every character is going to be gay, so try to give believable evidence against wishful evidence)

The only character I ever really suspected of possibly being gay was Gilderoy Lockhart, but even there I was in doubt. He could just as easily (and more likely) be a narcissist who loved himself too much.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 9:05 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

I must confess that I'd never thought of DD as a sexual being either - more power to muggles of a certain age who are still sowing their oats, but JKR said he was 150! - but of course I thought of him as a loving person, and I wasn't that shocked. It made perfect sense, actually. I would think that true love for DD would have to be accompanied by a powerful intellectual connection - and he had that with Gellert. I don't find it odd at all that the feelings - at least on DD's side; I do wonder if it was truly reciprocated - ran much deeper.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 9:12 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
This maybe is true as well. I don't think him being homosexual excludes that he found bigger asexual loves later in life.
Correct.

JK's revelation only reinforces for me his ability to love all beings, no matter who they may be. I just have a hard time thinking of him having that kind of relationship with anyone. Kind of like imagining your grandparents dating.


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Old October 22nd, 2007, 9:12 pm
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Re: Homosexuality in Harry Potter v2

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
That was the first hint I saw and his liking of knitting and other woman issues etc. Also his open minded behaviour.

The whole Doge/Grindelwald issue I still can't see. Need to re-read the book.
if we're talking about dress, then I'd wager that some 90% of the WW must be homosexual.

what woman issues does DD have?

honestly curious.

also, I wouldn't say that knitting equals gay (thats kind of laughable no offense).


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