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Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?



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  #21  
Old December 21st, 2007, 3:35 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
So I don't see Dumbledore as being in the clear in this scenario either - not relative to his own death - but relative to asking Snape to do it.
Im sorry I must be sleepy,time to log off...but what do you mean by this?


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  #22  
Old December 21st, 2007, 6:02 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Im sorry I must be sleepy,time to log off...but what do you mean by this?
Just that Dumbledore didn't actually kill himself, Snape killed him. However, Dumbledore is does not have clean hands in the matter. He made a plan and asked Snape to kill him, so he is guilty for doing those things.

Snape is also guilty for killing Dumbledore and agreeing to Dumbledore's plan - and also for making a Vow with Narcissa to ensure that he would kill Dumbledore or die.


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  #23  
Old December 21st, 2007, 6:06 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Hmmmm so if you were to hold Snape in a court of law, would he be guilty with the murder of Albus Dumbledore, or would forensic evidence point to Dumbledore already dying because of the effects of a cursed object and a potion be enough to amend Snape of his crimes if he provides a testimony that Dumbledore had wanted to die to save him from his suffering?


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  #24  
Old December 21st, 2007, 7:32 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Hmmmm so if you were to hold Snape in a court of law, would he be guilty with the murder of Albus Dumbledore, or would forensic evidence point to Dumbledore already dying because of the effects of a cursed object and a potion be enough to amend Snape of his crimes if he provides a testimony that Dumbledore had wanted to die to save him from his suffering?
In a court of law I think Snape would be guilty of third degree murder or manslaughter.

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Unlawful killings without malice or intent are considered manslaughter. (Wikipedia)

Pennslyvania Consolidated Statutes
------------------------------------------
(a) Murder of the first degree.-A criminal homicide constitutes murder of the first degree when it is committed by an intentional killing.

(b) Murder of the second degree.-A criminal homicide constitutes murder of the second degree when it is committed while defendant was engaged as a principal or an accomplice int he perpetration of a felony.

(c) Murder of the third degree.-All other kinds of murder shall be murder of the third degree. Murder of the third degree is a felony of the first degree.
While Snape performed the act that put an end to the life of Dumbledore, I think Dumbledore died that day by Snape's hand because of a plan he had made that called for Snape to kill him for deliberately. There was no malice or previous intent on Snape's part to kill Dumbledore.

1. Draco would be saved.
2. Snape would kill in front of other death eaters and thereby prove that he is a death eater to one and all and remove any doubts whatsoever from the minds of Voldemort and others.
3. Snape would then be in the Inner Circle and be in a position to help the Light in the best way.

Dumbledore was already dying because of the curse that was already in his system. He had very little time, even naturally. By asking Snape to kill him, when he was already dying, I think Dumbledore felt all the above points would work out well.

And work out they did. With enormous success.


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  #25  
Old December 21st, 2007, 10:06 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
In a court of law I think Snape would be guilty of third degree murder or manslaughter.



While Snape performed the act that put an end to the life of Dumbledore, I think Dumbledore died that day by Snape's hand because of a plan he had made that called for Snape to kill him for deliberately. There was no malice or previous intent on Snape's part to kill Dumbledore.

1. Draco would be saved.
2. Snape would kill in front of other death eaters and thereby prove that he is a death eater to one and all and remove any doubts whatsoever from the minds of Voldemort and others.
3. Snape would then be in the Inner Circle and be in a position to help the Light in the best way.

Dumbledore was already dying because of the curse that was already in his system. He had very little time, even naturally. By asking Snape to kill him, when he was already dying, I think Dumbledore felt all the above points would work out well.

And work out they did. With enormous success.
To be honest, I don't think JKR had criminal statutes or even common law in mind when she wrote this part .

Strictly speaking Snape would get murder in Pennsylvania because he did have the intent to kill and he killed - and even under common law elsewhere, the murder was intentional and premeditated. He could try for justification claiming to have done it out of necessity - but there were alternatives and besides, Snape had a hand in bringing about the situation leading up to his need to act, so that wouldn't likely work. However, there are special circumstances involved which take us out of the muggle world of law and into the magical world where the 'greater good' serves as a balancing factor. Whereas in the muggle world, the greater good according to one man would not serve to exculpate Snape.

In the magical world, Snape did kill Dumbledore intentionally (meaning he had every intention of doing it). It had to be intentional because the unforgiveable curse would not work if it was not 'meant' by the caster. It was also planned ahead of time by Dumbledore and Snape. Finally, Snape sealed the deal by taking the unbreakable vow which meant that either he did it (when Draco failed) or he would die. But Snape did it because Dumbledore asked it of him and he agreed. Further, Dumbledore begged him to do it at the scene of the crime. Finally, both Snape and Dumbledore did it because they believed it was necessary for the greater good.

Thus, while Snape did kill Dumbledore and they both planned it in various ways, imo, in the magical world it is not the same as a murder charge in the muggle world. The greater good is necessary to defeating the Dark Lord and as such, the crime is not weighted the same as it would be in the muggle world or if done out of malice in the magical world, imo.

Your points 1, 2 and 3 are all part of the 'greater good' reasoning and also, Dumbledore knew he had to be out of the picture for Harry to succeed. Finally, Dumbledore wanted to achieve his goals with respect to the Elder Wand.


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  #26  
Old December 21st, 2007, 11:41 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
To be honest, I don't think JKR had criminal statutes or even common law in mind when she wrote this part .


I agree.

Snape performed an action that was so heroic IMO. To kill a wizard like Albus Dumbdore and to allow himself to be hated viciously, isolated completely from the Order and become the most hunted man in all of wizarding Britain, is not somthing that is done with any kind of ease.

To take on that task requires some true and great courage IMO and Snape had that courage to take it on. No one, not anyone in the Order, not any of Hogwarts staff, no one could have done what Snape did, except may be Harry. I think Harry had that kind of courage and had he accepted like Snape had, he may have done the job. May have.

But Snape did and IMO that was the greatest act of courage -- because he had no family membes he was saving by that act, he was not escaping prison, nothing.

He comitted that murder to remain as a spy for the Light and that was truly brave!

While he really killed Albus Dumbledore, he was also never guilty of that murder is what I feel.


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  #27  
Old December 21st, 2007, 12:05 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Yes,Snape would be guilty for agreeing to kill him,He also had the choice to say ,no way man,Im not killing you...
But I think he understood Dumbledore wanted to end it,he ,I feel ,was dissapointed at him,sort of ...
Then if he hadnt agreed,would Dumbledore had allowed someone else to kill him,I certainly think so,the man wanted to finish his life of,and he must have felt weak,because of the curse,if he hadnt been cursed by the ring,I bet he would have delayed his plans and let Harry on the lead of some more info,How to destroy a horcurx for instance...But then do you think he might have asked SAnpe to kill him,HOw would harry have owner ship of the wand if it was done by Snape...you think Dubledore meant harry to overpower Snape...


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  #28  
Old December 21st, 2007, 12:23 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Yes,Snape would be guilty for agreeing to kill him,He also had the choice to say ,no way man,Im not killing you...
But I think he understood Dumbledore wanted to end it,he ,I feel ,was dissapointed at him,sort of ...
Then if he hadnt agreed,would Dumbledore had allowed someone else to kill him,I certainly think so,the man wanted to finish his life of,and he must have felt weak,because of the curse,if he hadnt been cursed by the ring,I bet he would have delayed his plans and let Harry on the lead of some more info,How to destroy a horcurx for instance...But then do you think he might have asked SAnpe to kill him,HOw would harry have owner ship of the wand if it was done by Snape...you think Dubledore meant harry to overpower Snape...
I don't think so. Snape agreeing to kill Dumbledore was one thing; to have Harry overpower him and claim mastery over the Elder wand would be totally different. For that Snape needed to know firstly about the Elder wand and secondly he had to allow Harry to overpower him and take control of the Elder wand. Snape did not know about the Elder wand and at that time when Dumbledore was killed, there was no way Harry could have defeated him in a duel.

I also don't think the wand thingy operates like that. Because Snape allowed Harry to disarm him, he would be handing the wand over to Harry and that would not be equal to getting control of the wand by winning it. I don't know though, and you may have a point there.


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  #29  
Old December 21st, 2007, 12:37 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

I think you get my point...
How did dumbledore meant to pass the elder wand to Harry,if Snape was the one who killed him,I totally agree.Harry wouldnt had been able to overpower Snape...The protego thing that work with legimens ,wouldnt work again...And then how would Hary have the owner ship of the wand....
Or was Dumbledore´s intention to have the wand destroyed by Snape and just run out of time...if draco hadnt got there first and Snape killed DD when Voldy killed Snape he would have been true master of the wand,and then...Harry would have died...cause the wand wouldnt had done what it did...What was DD playing at...


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  #30  
Old December 21st, 2007, 12:51 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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I think you get my point...
How did dumbledore meant to pass the elder wand to Harry,if Snape was the one who killed him,I totally agree.Harry wouldnt had been able to overpower Snape...The protego thing that work with legimens ,wouldnt work again...And then how would Hary have the owner ship of the wand....
Or was Dumbledore´s intention to have the wand destroyed by Snape and just run out of time...if draco hadnt got there first and Snape killed DD when Voldy killed Snape he would have been true master of the wand,and then...Harry would have died...cause the wand wouldnt had done what it did...What was DD playing at...
I don't think Dumbledore meant to pass on the wand to Harry. He meant it for Snape to have it all along, once Snape killed him. Snape also did not know about the Elder wand. Voldemort did know about the Elder wand and Dumbledore must have known that Voldemort would want to possess the wand and for that he would attack Snape and kill him.

1. Dumbledore was okay with Snape dying, because he does not tell Snape about the wand.
2. I don't know how the most important memory would have been passed on to Harry had Snape been killed earlier or even right then, when he was killed and Harry not been there.
3. Dumbledore never meant for Harry to have the wand.

Snape had agreed to kill Dumbledore and killed him, for the sake of the Light and Harry Potter. Looks like Dumbledore was not very willing to hand out important information that would have made Snape better prepared to defend himself.

For a whole year Dumbledore never tells Snape about the Elder wand, not even when his tomb is broken and his wand stolen.


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  #31  
Old December 21st, 2007, 1:03 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Ok,but then ...didi dumbledore meant for voldy to get the wand...he expected Harry to actually AVada kedavra Voldy...I mean I know he could,he was at this point,imperusing and cruciating people...still,i think Harry only used expelliarmus cause he knew about wandlore,but if voldy had had the elder wand,fully in his possesion,would our hero had won ...Would he had defeated Voldy...with the death stick in his possesion...
I mean he didnt tell Snape about the Elder wand,but he cant have expected Voldemort not to find out about it...or was he foolish enough like Voldemort to assume he knew things no one else would...


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Last edited by Montse; December 21st, 2007 at 1:06 pm.
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  #32  
Old December 21st, 2007, 1:17 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Ok,but then ...didi dumbledore meant for voldy to get the wand...he expected Harry to actually AVada kedavra Voldy...I mean I know he could,he was at this point,imperusing and cruciating people...still,i think Harry only used expelliarmus cause he knew about wandlore,but if voldy had had the elder wand,fully in his possesion,would our hero had won ...Would he had defeated Voldy...with the death stick in his possesion...
I mean he didnt tell Snape about the Elder wand,but he cant have expected Voldemort not to find out about it...or was he foolish enough like Voldemort to assume he knew things no one else would...
Dumbledore knew Voldemort would want the wand. Also Dumbledore knew when he asked Snape to kill him, which Snape did (killed him by the way, all for the greater good *rolls eyes*, Dumbledore never told him about the Elder wand and Snape was killed because of that lack of knowledge. And I think this is off topic, because we are talking about Snape's death instead of Dumbledore's.

If you want to discuss this further, then I am ready to, in Snape's Death vs.2 thread.


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  #33  
Old December 21st, 2007, 1:29 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

good point...see you there..

back to topic

i agree Snape murdered Dumbledore

still i think Dumbledore signed his own death sentence when he put the ring on

how would the epitaph say

to me ,i stick to the one i suggested

he died due to the foolish mistake of wanting to see those he dearly missed with the helping hand of Severus Snape...


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  #34  
Old December 21st, 2007, 1:43 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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good point...see you there..

back to topic

i agree Snape murdered Dumbledore

still i think Dumbledore signed his own death sentence when he put the ring on

how would the epitaph say

to me ,i stick to the one i suggested

he died due to the foolish mistake of wanting to see those he dearly missed with the helping hand of Severus Snape...
Putting on the ring was accidental and Dumbledore would have certainly died because of that, but asking Snape to kill him to put so many things in place, I really don't know, it was deliberate and I think he should be punished for that, because he also signed Snape's death warrant by that action -- asking Dumbledore to kill him, I mean.
I think his epitaph would read as ---

"All for the greater good"

everything for Dumbledore is covered by those words.


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  #35  
Old December 21st, 2007, 1:55 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Then Dumby should be blamed for both deaths..his ,for asking snape to do it,and snape for he knew by doing this(killing him thing)would get killed...
And Snape was guitly for saying yes,that we had agreed on.

And yes...
for the greater good...on the epitaph would make sense...it does include everything coming to think of it...


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  #36  
Old December 21st, 2007, 2:14 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Then Dumby should be blamed for both deaths..his ,for asking snape to do it,and snape for he knew by doing this(killing him thing)would get killed...
And Snape was guitly for saying yes,that we had agreed on.

And yes...
for the greater good...on the epitaph would make sense...it does include everything coming to think of it...
I agree with you almost on all points; only I would not say Snape was guilty actually of killing Dumbledore, but Dumbledore used Snape's guilt of Snape's own actions as a death eater to persuade him to do to his bidding in all matters.

I feel that Dumbledore has always been making Snape work for him, because of Snape's own guilt of having a hand in Lily's death.


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  #37  
Old December 21st, 2007, 3:01 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Yes ,that was exactly DD argument,he said he had agreed to help protect lily´s son so her death would not have been in vain...But then ,wasnt he guilty of saying yes to killing him...he would die anyway,even if he didnt kill him,and he was aware of that,but hten he had to follow the plan to stay in voldemorts circle and to avoid his own death,so we might give him a little responsibility of his actions and choices...


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Old December 21st, 2007, 3:58 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Well, I don't think so. Snape was, I believe, not guilty of agreeing to kill a dying Dumbledore. Snape was the one most affected I felt, because by killing Dumbledore, he would in one second beome the most hated, most wanted man in the WW.

His colleagues thought him a traitor and the order thought him a betrayer. Snape suffered through it all, just so that Draco's soul may be saved and his position in Voldemort's circle would be secured.

He had nothing to gain and everything to lose and yet he went ahead and killed Dumbledore so that the Light may benefit is what I thought.


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  #39  
Old December 21st, 2007, 4:15 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

But by killing Dumbledore,the death eaters would no longer doubt him,you saw bella´s reaction when he agreed on the vow...
And i dont see Snape caring much of what others thought...

he had a mission,he had to make choices,he had to follow a plan,even if he didnt agreed on it.

but he did had a choice,he could have said no...and then he would have died due to the vow...

He was gaining acceptance in the circle where he needed it at the moment so like I said
a little guilt might be given to him,because he could have refused it,and search other options ,but I thnk he didnt have the heart to see DD suffering due to the curse.he was in did guilty of having a big heart,for eventhough he knew DD was using him,i do think he cared for the old man.
or maybe not,he only saw him as the man who knw what to do inorder to save the son of the woman he had loved and therefore secure that she had not died in vain,Snape was a complex character...


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  #40  
Old December 21st, 2007, 5:07 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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But by killing Dumbledore,the death eaters would no longer doubt him,you saw bella´s reaction when he agreed on the vow...
And i dont see Snape caring much of what others thought...

he had a mission,he had to make choices,he had to follow a plan,even if he didnt agreed on it.

but he did had a choice,he could have said no...and then he would have died due to the vow...

He was gaining acceptance in the circle where he needed it at the moment so like I said
a little guilt might be given to him,because he could have refused it,and search other options ,but I thnk he didnt have the heart to see DD suffering due to the curse.he was in did guilty of having a big heart,for eventhough he knew DD was using him,i do think he cared for the old man.
or maybe not,he only saw him as the man who knw what to do inorder to save the son of the woman he had loved and therefore secure that she had not died in vain,Snape was a complex character...
I agree. Well almost everything except the guilt I suppose.


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