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Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?



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  #61  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:27 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by Montse View Post
The green woods

You think he did hate him then,you see Im not sure about that,but in the moment of killing him...I think he did...he was sort of forced to taking that desicion,he must have hated having to do it...
I really did think Snape hated Dumbledore at that moment when he killed him. Dumbledore had placed Snape in an impossible position and was completely isolating him from everyone. His life from then on would be so horrible and in that moment when Dumbledore pleads with Snape, asking too much from a man who had already given more than anybody else IMO, I think, Snape truly felt for his position as a spy that finally got him to that point -- the Astronomy Tower. And there was no going back.

Snape was truly helpless at that time, because the other death eaters were standing there and he must have known through Legilimency with Dumbledore that Harry was there too, and with the knowledge that his one action was going to take him to hell, almost equivalent of the hell, that Lily's death took him to, (only with Lily there was despair and enomous guilt too, I felt) I think Snape hated not only DUmbledore at that moment but he hated himself and the situation that was there at that time too!


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  #62  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:55 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Interesting question. Considering that Dumbledore made Snape promise to finish him off if circumstances came to that, then technically Snape did cause Dumbledore's death -- but then again, Snape had "stoppered death" for Dumbledore from the ring curse, which would otherwise have killed him at the time. Dumbledore was already a dead man from the ring incident on. So if Dumbledore was doomed to die from that curse, it can be argued that Voldemort actually killed Dumbledore first.....if you help a dying man to die, is it the same as killing someone who would otherwise live? And if Dumbledore had not been hindered by the curse, would he have taken a different course as events unfolded, and not asked Snape to kill him? My vote goes to Voldemort.


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  #63  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 8:13 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Interesting question. Considering that Dumbledore made Snape promise to finish him off if circumstances came to that, then technically Snape did cause Dumbledore's death -- but then again, Snape had "stoppered death" for Dumbledore from the ring curse, which would otherwise have killed him at the time. Dumbledore was already a dead man from the ring incident on. So if Dumbledore was doomed to die from that curse, it can be argued that Voldemort actually killed Dumbledore first.....if you help a dying man to die, is it the same as killing someone who would otherwise live? And if Dumbledore had not been hindered by the curse, would he have taken a different course as events unfolded, and not asked Snape to kill him? My vote goes to Voldemort.
- I think Dumbledore would not be happy with the thought that Voldemort killed him! I believe he liked to think he planned and had his own death carried out (from his perspective). Good to see you Hedwig - I think of you often when I am trying to find book information, wishing I had your memory for details!


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Old December 23rd, 2007, 8:24 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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- I think Dumbledore would not be happy with the thought that Voldemort killed him! I believe he liked to think he planned and had his own death carried out (from his perspective). Good to see you Hedwig - I think of you often when I am trying to find book information, wishing I had your memory for details!
I'd agree that Dumbledore had the final say, technically, on pulling the trigger, but I'd also put that in the same category as Snape's circumstance. Voldy's still my top pick. And I owe my good HP memory to the many times I've read the books, so many that I've lost count.


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  #65  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 2:28 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

Hedwig owl

You know I had thought about that...but then ,Voldemort didnt made DD wear the ring,it was DD own foolishnes and desire to see *** ones he loved and missed that made him wear the ring,So it was his own choice ,he himself got condemened to death..and Sanpe favored him in killing him a bit earlier to avoid him exessive pain and humiliation ...

I dont know why he wore the ring really,Harry didnt and saw james and Lily,why did DD wear it?He needed t oget cursed for the plot...I know,but what went thourgh DD mind to make him wear the ring?He knew according to the story you had to turn it in your palm,(i think)

You think it was a protection thing that would cause the one who found it to actually want to wear it?

Then again DD doesnt say that at king cross,he says it was his own foolishness...

The green woods

We agree on that too then...thats ,two ,out of three...
*happy*


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  #66  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 3:32 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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posted by Monste
The green woods

We agree on that too then...thats ,two ,out of three...
*happy*
I am happy too!

I kind of agree generally with your post, only I would not say it was Dumbledore's foolishness. Perhaps it was, I think sheer disbelief in seeing the ring, that he forgot himself for a second and put it on, and probably realized what he was doing only after he had actually done it.


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  #67  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 4:56 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
kind of agree generally with your post,
Same here...in general terms....

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think sheer disbelief in seeing the ring, that he forgot himself for a second and put it on, and probably realized what he was doing only after he had actually done it.
*narrows eyes*
maybe...just shocked he had found with this the third hallow he had once set to find...

thrilled by his discovery when he expected to find only a horcrux,belonging to the
gaunts,then he got exited about seeing his dead loved ones...so then yes it wouldnt be foolishness but a turmoil of emotions,exitement,amazement,longing ...yes...i would agree again...

*Happy again*


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  #68  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 5:02 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by Montse View Post
Same here...in general terms....



*narrows eyes*
maybe...just shocked he had found with this the third hallow he had once set to find...

thrilled by his discovery when he expected to find only a horcrux,belonging to the
gaunts,then he got exited about seeing his dead loved ones...so then yes it wouldnt be foolishness but a turmoil of emotions,exitement,amazement,longing ...yes...i would agree again...

*Happy again*
I think you got that just fine!

And that is a very good point about seeing dead ones, Dumbledore was probably so excited that he had 2 Hallows all to himself and this one would help him see Ariana and he could soothe his soul a bit after such a long time, he most likely simply grabbed it and put in on and whe the thing burst on him and cursed him, I think he then realized just what he had done.

Quote:
Happy again


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  #69  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 6:03 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

I can actually imagine him thrilled...with the gaunts ring ,(resurection stone) he had now seen the three deathly hallows,i do think he forgot all caution,and that Voldemort had tampered with the ring,making it a horcrux and it was now possibly dangerous , the thought he could see Kendra and Ariana...and the thrill of having seen and found the three deathly hallows ,made him act on the moment without taking time to actually think and take precautions..

I think he said in some point...or JK added this was the hallow he had long desired to posses.


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  #70  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 6:54 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

This is a good thread.

I'd have to say that Snape Kevorkian did it...professor assisted suicide.


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  #71  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:40 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

yeah,sort of...


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  #72  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:43 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

I don't think that DD ever lost sight of what he was doing. The DD we have come to know and love, never did anything without thinking about it. He knew he was going to find a horcrux in Gaunt's shack. He knew that it would most likely be cursed. He may have been surprised to find it was the Resurrection Stone set into a ring, but if he had only wanted to see his family, he wouldn't have put the ring on, just turned it 3 times in his hand.

No, he took what he thought to be an acceptable risk, since he stated that he knew Riddle's style (HBP at the cave), and felt that he could contain any damage. He was wrong, and he underestimated the strength of the curse that LV had placed on it, though he was able to contain it somewhat till Snape could be summoned to continue the de-cursing of his hand. After he returned to his office, he destroyed the horcrux (according to Phineas Nigellus Black's portrait), using the Sword of Gryffindor.

FGM


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  #73  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 7:51 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by Fairygdmther View Post
I don't think that DD ever lost sight of what he was doing. The DD we have come to know and love, never did anything without thinking about it. He knew he was going to find a horcrux in Gaunt's shack. He knew that it would most likely be cursed. He may have been surprised to find it was the Resurrection Stone set into a ring, but if he had only wanted to see his family, he wouldn't have put the ring on, just turned it 3 times in his hand.

No, he took what he thought to be an acceptable risk, since he stated that he knew Riddle's style (HBP at the cave), and felt that he could contain any damage. He was wrong, and he underestimated the strength of the curse that LV had placed on it, though he was able to contain it somewhat till Snape could be summoned to continue the de-cursing of his hand. After he returned to his office, he destroyed the horcrux (according to Phineas Nigellus Black's portrait), using the Sword of Gryffindor.

FGM

I disagree...

"When i discoveredit,after all those years,buried in the abandonament of the gaunts-the hallow I had craved most of all,though in my youth i had wanted it for very differnt reasons-I,lost my head Harry.I quite forgot that it was now a horcrux,that the thing was sure to carry a curse..."
page 719 deathly hallows..

so you see even heDD himself thinks he lost his mind,was not careful enough


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  #74  
Old December 24th, 2007, 3:05 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by USNAGator91 View Post
One of the holes in the series was that Dumbledore was one of the most powerful wizards of his age, why didn't he take it upon himself to face down Voldemort and why did he choose, instead, to place that task on a child?
I believe he did intend to do this himself, after getting rid of the Horcruxes. His plans were, in my opinion, altered when he learned he had less than a year to live. He knew he would not have time to find all the Horcruxes himself, and that is where Harry came in.

He did not try to kill Voldemort earlier, because while Harry lived and housed a piece of his soul, he was not killable anyway.

As to the general thread question, I would say Voldemort, as the wizard who cast the curse that would have killed Dumbledore inside of a year, bears the greatest respinsibility, followed closely by Dumbledore himself. Both for his carelessness in handling an object he ought to have expected to be powerfully cursed, and for asking Snape to actually kill him.

Though Snape was of course the person who actually killed him.


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  #75  
Old December 24th, 2007, 3:43 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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Originally Posted by Fairygdmther View Post
I don't think that DD ever lost sight of what he was doing. The DD we have come to know and love, never did anything without thinking about it. He knew he was going to find a horcrux in Gaunt's shack. He knew that it would most likely be cursed. He may have been surprised to find it was the Resurrection Stone set into a ring, but if he had only wanted to see his family, he wouldn't have put the ring on, just turned it 3 times in his hand.

No, he took what he thought to be an acceptable risk, since he stated that he knew Riddle's style (HBP at the cave), and felt that he could contain any damage. He was wrong, and he underestimated the strength of the curse that LV had placed on it, though he was able to contain it somewhat till Snape could be summoned to continue the de-cursing of his hand. After he returned to his office, he destroyed the horcrux (according to Phineas Nigellus Black's portrait), using the Sword of Gryffindor.

FGM
I disagree. Monste has said it very well, quoting the book, and Dumbledore was seeing another Hallow, the last Hallow and the one he wanted the most after Ariana died,I think. He already had the wand and he also had seen the invisibility cloak, this one had eluded him and now when he saw it, I think he lost himself for a minute. And that cost him his life.

And being Dumbledore, he just had to turn that all for the greater good and so ordered Snape to kill him.

While I am okay with that actually, I would have thought a lot more of Dumbledore, had he informed a few key memebers of the Order that Snape was innocent. He did not and left Snape high and dry and totally alone, IMO.


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  #76  
Old December 24th, 2007, 3:54 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

And we continue to agree

and yes DD should have informed someone in the order about his plan...what if Snape got killed before he could inform Harry about everything...How would have Harry known he was supposed to sacrifice himself?
This I think was a big flaw in DD plan.

Besides,it left Snape like you say,all alone ,althoug I think thats how he felt for the rest of his life after he lost lily...

Now,about Voldemort being responsible for DD death,i really doubt it ,its like guns you see,people who make them,arent responsible for the death of people who have beeen killed by them..Athough i do get your point,because the ring was cursed with the purpose of killing who ever found it and wear it,how ever it was DD choice to put it on,and the emotion of the moment like I have posted above.


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Old December 24th, 2007, 7:25 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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And we continue to agree

and yes DD should have informed someone in the order about his plan...what if Snape got killed before he could inform Harry about everything...How would have Harry known he was supposed to sacrifice himself?
This I think was a big flaw in DD plan.

Besides,it left Snape like you say,all alone ,althoug I think thats how he felt for the rest of his life after he lost lily...

Now,about Voldemort being responsible for DD death,i really doubt it ,its like guns you see,people who make them,arent responsible for the death of people who have beeen killed by them..Athough i do get your point,because the ring was cursed with the purpose of killing who ever found it and wear it,how ever it was DD choice to put it on,and the emotion of the moment like I have posted above.
I disagree that it was actually a "choice" by Dumbledore, more like a rash decision, based entirely on emotions. Dumbledore told Harry that he lost his head when he saw the stone in the ring, forgetting it was now a horcrux and likely carrying a curse. I'm not sure that every action is a conscious decision, especially when strong emotions are involved.

Dumbledore's unfortunate reaction notwithstanding, I still think Voldemort carries the most blame, as the effects of the curse could not be stopped, just slowed, but certain to kill. Technically Snape cast the AK, but as it was at Dumbledore's request so that changes things in my opinion.....plus otherwise one of the other DE's would have killed him, and then Greyback would have chomped on him.


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  #78  
Old December 24th, 2007, 8:32 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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I disagree that it was actually a "choice" by Dumbledore, more like a rash decision, based entirely on emotions. Dumbledore told Harry that he lost his head when he saw the stone in the ring, forgetting it was now a horcrux and likely carrying a curse. I'm not sure that every action is a conscious decision, especially when strong emotions are involved.

Dumbledore's unfortunate reaction notwithstanding, I still think Voldemort carries the most blame, as the effects of the curse could not be stopped, just slowed, but certain to kill. Technically Snape cast the AK, but as it was at Dumbledore's request so that changes things in my opinion.....plus otherwise one of the other DE's would have killed him, and then Greyback would have chomped on him.
I agree with you in the main...but remember in OOTP when Dumbledore (apparently without his wand) caused the silver whatever it was to knock all present out cold? Then through Fawkes he disappeared in a flame? Well I believe he had at least that 'choice' as an out on the tower as well. I know he was sickly, but he had performed spells on Harry and later stood speaking to Draco, deliberately and at times, harshly, for quite some time. I think Dumbledore had an 'out', but he chose not to take it. We know he is capable of conjuring (as he did at the MOM) and all types of very advanced magic.

Thus, I don't think it can be concluded that Greyback or anyone else could have killed Dumbledore against his will on the tower. He wanted Snape to do it and he wanted him to do it then, imo.

Finally, while Voldemort's curse would have killed him eventually, that is not what killed him. And while Dumbledore planned with Snape for him to kill him, the plan didn't kill him either. And while Snape vowed with Narcissa to do it or die, the vow didn't do it either. What did it was an AK curse shot from Snape's wand - end of story, imo. Snape could have chosen to do it or not to do it, but he did it and he had to have 'meant' it or the unforgiveable would not work. (Not meaning he wanted to do it, but that he 'intended' that Dumbledore die from the curse).

Thus I would answer that Snape killed Dumbledore. Dumbledore and Snape planned it and Snape and Narcissa planned it, but plans don't kill. Future certainty of death - perhaps as much as a year later - also cannot be held culpable for the death of Dumbledore that occurred long before that.


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Old December 24th, 2007, 9:17 am
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

A vital question would be: If Dumbledore had never been cursed by the ring horocrux, how would he have reacted to the news that Voldemort had given Draco and Snape the job to kill him?


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Old December 24th, 2007, 12:47 pm
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Re: Who really killed Albus Dumbledore?

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A vital question would be: If Dumbledore had never been cursed by the ring horocrux, how would he have reacted to the news that Voldemort had given Draco and Snape the job to kill him?
A fantastic question and the answers are likely to vary greatly, I presume.

For me, had Dumbledore not been injured fatally, there would be no question of Snape killing him, and then I think Snape and Dumbledore or Dumbledore himself, would have approached Draco sooner, rather than later and would have tried to convince him and also perhaps meet with Lucius and Narcissa and try to hide them much before.

Snape's unbreakable vow would still be there and that would create complications for Dumbledore if he did not tackle Draco soon.

Dumbledore would not want to simply die because he knows he could be of great help to Harry alive, rather than dead.

DH would have been a different book and HBP too! Harry might not have known about the horcruxes because Dumbledore had a lot of time then.

Too many things would have changed had Dumbledore not been fatally injured, IMO.


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