Downton Abbey - contains spoilers for season 4

[decarus]

I agree that it just doesn't make sense to me that Bates' wife would kill herself. Like it seems really out of character so i do think she was murdered by someone. Maybe they just wanted to get rid of that complication and so they just killed her to move the plot even though it was out of character. I have no idea.

To me it wouldn't seem out of character that Bates actually killed her because you can see that anger in him like we saw in this last episode. I sort of believe he has it in him.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

You can't have drama without bad things happening!

Yeah, but what good things happen? You can't just have one bad thing happen after another. It's depressing.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Yeah, but what good things happen? You can't just have one bad thing happen after another. It's depressing.

It's how stories are made, though. The first act you give your protagonist a problem (Bates is accused of murdering his wife), the second act you make your protagonist struggle with that problem (Bates being the prime suspect, all the evidence stacked against him, he loses his trial and is imprisoned...) by the end of act 2 the protagonist is at the lowest of low points, as far from redemption or solving their problem as they can possibly be, and the third act is the fighting back, solving the problem and triumphing (Bates proving his innocence and being released). Bates in still in his second act and the second act is always really dower.

[Moriath]

I wish Bates was guilty. I want to fast-forward through all of his scenes. Thank goodness Anna has scenes with Lady Mary as well, otherwise her character would be ruined by the most tedious storyline in recent history.

Matthew needs to get over himself. I read spoilers that would set the couple up for another cop-out solution to their problems but that seems to be Fellows' preferred modus operandi. Other than that, I love that Matthew and Mary are finally married.

There are many things I like this series and some I don't. It is already better than series two though.

[lupislune]

Now that all the daughters will be married (assuming Edith gets married within the next episode or two), I am wondering how the marriages will effect the overall plot. Mary and Matthew are obvious, I suppose. I wonder about Edith's marriage and Sybl's though. Is Sybil going to be written out of the program or become a character that makes occasional appearances, or is something going to happen where she moves back to Downton. The only way that I see her moving back to Downton though is if something happens to Branson.

I do think that it is possible that he may be the one that dies this series as the Irish Uprising is exceptionally violent. As much as I can see him being the one dying, I could also see Sybil, but her child surviving and living at Downton, much to the chagrin of Branson. I think Sybil's death though would be trite, unless Jessica Findley is planning on leaving the show.

I think the Edith / Sir Anthony marriage could be a very tedious addition to the plot as I can't see any positives from a writing standpoint, unless there is some hidden attributes about Sir Anthony's estate or character than can add additional conflict. It relationship seems to have offered as much as it can to the current plot, and I'm of the Dowager Countess's opinion, plot wise, that it needs to go or be modified in some manner.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

It's how stories are made, though. The first act you give your protagonist a problem (Bates is accused of murdering his wife), the second act you make your protagonist struggle with that problem (Bates being the prime suspect, all the evidence stacked against him, he loses his trial and is imprisoned...) by the end of act 2 the protagonist is at the lowest of low points, as far from redemption or solving their problem as they can possibly be, and the third act is the fighting back, solving the problem and triumphing (Bates proving his innocence and being released). Bates in still in his second act and the second act is always really dower.

Yeah, but my point was that more bad stuff can't happen in the future to Bates. He's nearing that "end of act 2" stage where things have to start looking up.

[decarus]

Maybe Lord Grantham will die. You know when he got that phone call about the money for a moment i thought it was him learning that maid he slept with was pregnant.

[Moriath]

I would be delighted if Bates died but that's really wishful thinking. I think it might be either the Dowager Countess or Mrs Hughes. Or maybe Mrs Padmore, freeing the way for Daisy, ruler of the kitchens!

[Lord Godric]

Pfft..no Bates bashing.

[lupislune]

Pffftt I'm just as bored as the next person regarding the Bates storyline in its current form, but I don't wish him or think he will end up dead.

I wonder why Cora's brother was brought up in this episode. Is it foreshadowing an appearance later in the season? It seems to be in Fellows style to haphazardly mention a character, then have the main plot involve him two or three episodes later.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow night.

[Lord Godric]

Tonight's episode was one of my favorites, if not my absolute favorite.

Even though I never liked Edith that much, I was so happy that she was finally going to feel like she is just as loved as her sisters. And then Sir Anthony called off the wedding, and I just felt beyond terrible. Being left at the altar is the absolute manifestation of all of her deepest insecurities and I couldn't help but pitying her beyond imagination. She earned my respect though. I thought she would lament in her bed for days on end, but the next morning she got up and carried on. I was almost proud to see her do that.

I'm so glad that Matthew is using the money to save Downton without having to go against his morals. I do have to admit that I speculated that Mary was making it up, but I am glad to see that the money was given to him even though he "betrayed" Lavinia.

I'm also glad that Mrs. Hughes doesn't have cancer, although the way it was presented still makes me question if she's lying just to make everyone stop treating her as if she's already dead. But she seemed absolutely joyful at the end, so I don't think that's the case. Speaking of that scene at the end, when are Carson and Mrs. Hughes just going to realize they love each other

I do wish that they'd hurry up the Bates storyline, I do not want it to drag out for the entire season. It's boring *me* and I love Bates. They need to do something soon to either free him or permanently condemn him. I don't want to wait until the season finale or Christmas special to see something actually happen.

[lupislune]

I quite enjoyed this episode, although I felt a bit bad for Edith. Getting stood up at the alter is difficult, but she always seems to handle difficultly well. Perhaps her vindictive side helps her there.

I too am relieved, yet left slightly amiss regarding Mrs. Hughes's news. Is she lying, or is the growth indeed benign.

I did hope there would be a tidbit of Mrs. Levinson's maid in this episode, but it seems that she has returned to the states.

I am looking forward to next week's episode, specifically the Branson storyline. It seems that they are going to delve a bit more into the Irish uprising.

Gah! I wish they would hurry up the Bates storyline. It is getting tiresome.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by Moriath

I would be delighted if Bates died but that's really wishful thinking.

For as much as I liked (emphasis on the past-tense) him, I kind of agree. I don't like his or Anna's story anymore.

Daisy, ruler of the kitchens

Oooo, with as sweet as she is I can't see that, but then again, give Daisy a taste of true power and who knows what'll come out of her!

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Even though I never liked Edith that much, I was so happy that she was finally going to feel like she is just as loved as her sisters. And then Sir Anthony called off the wedding, and I just felt beyond terrible. Being left at the altar is the absolute manifestation of all of her deepest insecurities and I couldn't help but pitying her beyond imagination. She earned my respect though. I thought she would lament in her bed for days on end, but the next morning she got up and carried on. I was almost proud to see her do that.

I know!! So sad but, honestly, it would have been too much to ask to have all three daughters happily married... (though they could have done some pregancy problems with Mary and Matthew, put the estate back in an heirless deadend... future plot?) I guess I like Edith more than you do (she's actually the sister that I identify with the most); I felt just terrible for her. I kind of guessed, though, that Sir Anthony would dump her when they showed him waiting for the wedding to begin, especially when coupled with the talk he and Grantham had in that previous scene. (I think I'm figuring out the formula of the show; have the character express an extreme viewpoint and then have the exact opposite thing happen, more on that later). I thought that Edith spent one full day in bed and got up two days after the wedding but I see that I might be wrong on the timeline. Doesn't really matter. I do admire her strength in pulling herself up by her bootstraps and carrying on as the Useful Spinster, as she is calling herself. A sad self-image to have but at least she's not wallowing.

I'm so glad that Matthew is using the money to save Downton without having to go against his morals. I do have to admit that I speculated that Mary was making it up, but I am glad to see that the money was given to him even though he "betrayed" Lavinia.

This is the plot thread that confirmed I had discovered the show's formula. With how many times Matthew had said that he couldn't take Swire's money under false pretenses and how Swire didn't know he (Matthew) had betrayed his daughter, I figured that something magical and perfect would fall from the sky and wipe away Matthew's reservations. Enter Daisy, the mystery letter carrier, and Mr. Swire admittin he knew his future son-in-law had betrayed his daughter... a little too convenient but Downton is saved! Hurray! Fun to come in the future with Carson asking whom to report to in the next episode...

Speaking of that scene at the end, when are Carson and Mrs. Hughes just going to realize they love each other

AMEN! Just get on with it, you two!!

Originally Posted by lupislune

I am looking forward to next week's episode, specifically the Branson storyline. It seems that they are going to delve a bit more into the Irish uprising.

I'm really looking forward to next week and seeing what trouble Branson has gotten himself into.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

\

I'm really looking forward to next week and seeing what trouble Branson has gotten himself into.

If Mrs. Hughes does not, indeed, have cancer I have to wonder if that means

Spoiler: show

if Branson will be the one dying. We're in 1920 and it's the height of the Irish War for Independence. Next week's episode seems like Branson definitely deserts Sybil, and I think it'd make for good TV to have Sybil raise her child as a widow.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

If Mrs. Hughes does not, indeed, have cancer I have to wonder if that means

Spoiler: show

if Branson will be the one dying. We're in 1920 and it's the height of the Irish War for Independence. Next week's episode seems like Branson definitely deserts Sybil, and I think it'd make for good TV to have Sybil raise her child as a widow.

As sad as that would be I have to agree.

Having all three daughters happily married is no good for TV drama. That's at least partly why I suspect Julian Fellows had Sir Anthony not only dump Edith, but wait until the actual wedding day at the actual wedding ceremony to do it. Maximum drama.

[lupislune]

So, a few thoughts on last night's episode:

1. I rather like the direction of Edith's storyline. I hope that she becomes a writer and marries an editor or someone in "popular" society. It would greatly amuse me if she were to marry someone of society where she inherits a title that will outrank Mary's title in the future. I understand though that if not treated well, this storyline could end up being very silly.

2. I'm getting very tired of the Bates prison storyline. I'm hoping Fellows doesn't drag out his prison scenes to the end of the series (season).

3. The Irish Rebellion storyline seems trite almost in the way it is being treated. If he is going to have characters be involved with the Rebellion, Fellows should jump headfirst into the storyline, not treat it as a petulant child being sat in the corner.

4. More Daisy please.

5. I am curious if the episode is going to set up a stressed relationship between Robert and Matthew as Matthew has discovered that the estate is being run poorly and he wants to make modifications to it.

6. I am hoping that we have seen the last of the Ethel storyline, but given the preview for next episode, it doesn't seem that is going to be the case. That being said, however, I very much like Mrs. Hughes.

7. I think the person that dies in this series is either going to be Branson or Bates. I'm hoping for the latter only because I'm tired of the storyline, but that could change if his storyline changes.

[kittling]

Cos of course an electric toaster is just as bad as the IRA! You've got to love Mr Carson he’s always so reasonable.

Originally Posted by lupislune

The Irish Rebellion storyline seems trite almost in the way it is being treated. If he is going to have characters be involved with the Rebellion, Fellows should jump headfirst into the storyline, not treat it as a petulant child being sat in the corner.

I don't understand can you explain?

I'm getting very tired of the Bates prison storyline. I'm hoping Fellows doesn't drag out his prison scenes to the end of the series

I think I'm the only one who doesn't mind it! I hope it doesn't last too long (mainly because I want to see Thomas' face when Bates get his old job back )

One thing I quite like is that they try to keep reminding us that Edwardian & post WW1 society was very divided and most people didn't live in a cosy affluent world. I think if they had avoided plots involving Bates (his plot line from the start not just the prison bit), & Ethel for example it would be very easy for it all to create the past as a sort of idyll.

One thing I’ve really liked is how we’ve seen the changing treatment of women and their growing role during WW1 change all three of the girls, and in fact I think it’s improved their relationships. I like the fact that we are also getting a small insight into how difficult it can be to be expected to slip back into the old ways after the war was over.

More Daisy please.

Totally!

[lupislune]

Originally Posted by kittling

I don't understand can you explain?

I think Fellowes only addresses the Irish Rebellion because he must, given the time period in which Downton is set. I also think he sees the Irish as misbehaving children in that point in history leading to the way he treats the subject in Downton and to a lessor extent Branson's character.

I hope that makes better sense

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by lupislune

So, a few thoughts on last night's episode:

1. I rather like the direction of Edith's storyline. I hope that she becomes a writer and marries an editor or someone in "popular" society. It would greatly amuse me if she were to marry someone of society where she inherits a title that will outrank Mary's title in the future. I understand though that if not treated well, this storyline could end up being very silly.

I do, too. I liked that Matthew was encouraging her and congratulated her when her letter had been published. I, too, see a romance in her future that would be a much better match for her than Sir Anthony, though maybe it won't happen this season. She really enjoyed helping out on that farm and being, as she says, useful so I imagine her matching up with a man who appreciates her desires to be useful and also one whose not going to only expect her to keep house and put on fancy dinners. That's so not who Edith is.

2. I'm getting very tired of the Bates prison storyline. I'm hoping Fellows doesn't drag out his prison scenes to the end of the series (season).

I'm worried that he will. I am really looking forward, though, to Thomas's demotion when Bates returns; smack that smug smile right off his pretty face

3. The Irish Rebellion storyline seems trite almost in the way it is being treated. If he is going to have characters be involved with the Rebellion, Fellows should jump headfirst into the storyline, not treat it as a petulant child being sat in the corner.

However it's being treated I think it makes a certain amount of sense to include it, though I think it's a bit questionable that Branson is still so anti-gentry after marrying into gentry. Granted, they did run away to get married in Ireland so it's not like he spent a lot of time getting to know the Crawleys on a personal level before he went home and joined the rebellion...

4. More Daisy please.

Hear, hear!!

5. I am curious if the episode is going to set up a stressed relationship between Robert and Matthew as Matthew has discovered that the estate is being run poorly and he wants to make modifications to it.

Knew something was coming the second Matthew said, "No, no, the running of Downton will continue as it always has, all I've done is make an investment." I'm hoping this storyline will lead to interesting and fun places as Matthew begins implementing new management ideas on the estate.

6. I am hoping that we have seen the last of the Ethel storyline, but given the preview for next episode, it doesn't seem that is going to be the case. That being said, however, I very much like Mrs. Hughes.

Was never a big fan of Ethel's storyline and was always slightly confused by Mrs. Hughes particular interest in her seeing as how she never seemed to like Ethel when she worked at Downton. Crossing my fingers it's the end but I haven't seen the preview for next week so...

7. I think the person that dies in this series is either going to be Branson or Bates. I'm hoping for the latter only because I'm tired of the storyline, but that could change if his storyline changes.

Bates would end the prison storyline but Branson would keep Sybil and the baby at Downton indefinitely. Seeing as how Bates has another "out" (being absolved of the crime and released), I'm (weirdly) hoping Branson is the one who dies. Especially since that would put pressure on Mary and Matthew to produce an heir, as Matthew began hinting at in this episode.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by kittling

I think I'm the only one who doesn't mind it! I hope it doesn't last too long (mainly because I want to see Thomas' face when Bates get his old job back )

Oh, me too. I can't think where there would even be a place for Thomas now that all the other roles are filled, but I certainly think Robert would prefer Bates over someone who isn't "popular downstairs" as his valet. I don't mind the prison storyline I just don't want Bates to suffer the entire season. Although obviously something bad is going to happen with Bates and his cell mate.