The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

[wolfbrother]

I'm really surprised that Peter was able to avoid detection for over a year. I always saw Dumbledore as someone who more often than not performed Legilimency whenever he spoke to people. A habit if you like.
Even assuming that Dumbledore doesn't use it always, Dumbledore knew that someone close to the Potters was leaking information. I can only assume that Dumbledore didn't believe Peter to be capable of it or maybe Voldemort performed some sort of charm that would help him avoid detection.

[kittling]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

for someone who has been shown to look to others for leadership and advice,

Can you supply any cannon showing Peter looking to others for advice? Personally I can’t think of any but my brain isn’t working too well atm so I might just be forgetting something fairly important.

I think he felt "better mocked and cruciated as an ally than AK'ed as an enemy."

It is very easy to say or think “I would never do that” but when the chips are down we don’t always react in the way we expect I think a lot of people would, understandably, end up choosing life.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t like what Peter did, I don’t think it was a great thing for him to have done but I can see why he might have made the choice he did – that’s all I’m saying.

I can see what you mean about Peter's point of view, but I still think what he did was vile.

I can sympathise with your reaction & I suspect that’s pretty much how JKR wanted her readers to react but this is not the judge character X thread but a character analysis thread and I’m more interested in they why’s & wherefore’s of a character than standing in judgement

Which just goes to show that everyone was in the same boat - they didn't all turn traitor, though.

But they weren’t in the same boat as you pointed out

I also think it was most likely the DEs who sought Peter out,

I don’t think that applies to the other marauders, Order members or the general public; the vast majority of people were not approached by DE & that is what makes Peters position so different & dangerous.

He was I think in a very lonely position from the moment he was targeted

I think if Peter had disappeared shortly after he was approached, Voldemort would have had more important things to attend to than an AWOL minor spy. Rumours could have been spread that he was discovered and killed by the Order, he could have been hidden.

It might or might not have worked but is that something you think many people would like to bet their lives on, and more importantly would Peter?

I still think he could have left the country, faking his death, etc. I don't think he would have had the nerve to spy on Voldemort, to put himself in that kind of danger. He probably lacked the Occlumency skill to have lied, as it's an "obscure branch of magic". Which makes me wonder how he managed to lie to Dumbledore, although I suppose DD wasn't using Legilimency on the Order to the extent Voldemort was on his DEs.

Or maybe Peter was smart enough not to lie to Dumbledore – Severus shows that often we don’t have to outright lie to mislead people. And as we have seen Dumbledore is not infallible.

I suspect Peter is actually both quite intelligent and not as awful at magic as some characters have suggested. His plot to throw the blame onto Sirius was a accomplished one and it worked – so he can’t be that dumb. And he performed the spell to resurrect Voldermort – which I doubt was one that was easy to cast.

Which reminds me of the fact that he managed to cut off his own hand – I wonder was that brave? I’m not sure I could have done it and I know people talk about someone cutting off a limb to escape a vehicle wreck in a manner that implies admiration of courage. If its not courage what is it? Just wondering?

I have a major problem with him insisting he had no choice -there's always a choice, even if the alternative is awful, and it's a choice he made for over a year.

True - he did have a choice, he could have chosen death – an event that would have in all likelihood be painful and protracted (to maximise the chances of him having a change of mind)

While he was incorrect to suggest he had no choice his erstwhile friend was equally wrong to suggest that choosing death was a simple and easy decision – it simply isn’t.

I think, if he'd gone to the Marauders when he was first approached -before he'd started spying in earnest, they would have understood - it was continuing to spy that made it despicable.

But do you think that Peter thought he could tell anyone with out Voldermort – the most powerful dark wizard who had ever existed – finding out? And again is that a risk that many people would choose.

I agree these options may have existed but again I repeat they are not easy choices and this one relies on the fact the Peter on top of everything else believed that the marauders would have understood. I’m not sure he believed that.

[wolfbrother]

Peter cutting off his hand for Voldemort is an incredible thing. He had to do it himself. I can't even begin to imagine how dreadful it would have been.

Regarding how Peter initially became a spy, IMO Peter had a huge advantage being a rat. He should have agreed to Vodemort and then just taken off. Voldemort wasn't about to go searching after Peter. Unless Voldemort did think of this and made plans to prevent Peter from fleeing.

One thing that bothered me was why Peter returned to Voldemort. Sirius was not about to hunt him again. He could have gone off somewhere and remained hidden. Instead he goes and finds Voldemort and helps bring him back to power.

[SoulSyster]

Sirius would have died for his friends and expected the same from Peter. Was this unfair or was this an integral part of being a Marauder?
I don't really think it was fair, only because Sirius didn't consider how different him and Peter were. Not all friends would die for each other, and some people are terrified of death- even more so than usual.
How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think Peter was definitely envious and probably did feel both left out and inferior. Remus also must've felt left out at times, but I think he was just really grateful to have them around at all.
Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I don't really want to answer cuz I don't remember when Remus was ever a suspect But I agree with the others who say it was probably because he was a werewolf.
James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Both, but probably more adventurous.
What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
Sirius probably found it funny, and even sad at times. Remus might've thought it to be cute or may have pitied him. I doubt Peter really cared.
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders? Did she become the fifth Marauder, so to speak?
I think she only influenced them at all was because James loved her. Other than that, she wasn't a big role in the Marauder's life, all-together.
James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
Remus may've been a bit hurt, but also understanding. Peter was probably hurt.
Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think he was ever happy, and never really wanted to do it. But he cared about his life more than his friends, so I don't feel very sympathetic for him. I doubt they would forgive him.
Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
Maybe a bit. I think they all wanted Voldemort stopped and were courageous enough to join- Except maybe Peter's case. He seemed like a coward, but I'm sure he still wanted Voldy to be stopped, even if it probably took some nudging from his friends to join.
How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as (un)funny as the Weasley twins?
I've never really compared them. James and Sirius were a bit like Fred and George, but more cruel and not funny, unlike the twins.
Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
I suppose it chaged my opinion of Peter slightly, because of how and why he died. Snape's worst memory always made me think a bit less of them, but in the end, I think they were portrayed favourably.
Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
It's a hard decision; Sirius used to be my favorite, because of his charisma. I think the other's appreciated that about him. Anyways, I can decide between him and Remus. Remus was very kind (despite being a werewolf), courageous, and smart. I think these were the traits that his friends loved about him most.

[hwyla]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

...One thing that bothered me was why Peter returned to Voldemort. Sirius was not about to hunt him again. He could have gone off somewhere and remained hidden. Instead he goes and finds Voldemort and helps bring him back to power.

Why do you think Sirius would not have continued to hunt him? He escaped Azkaban in order to hunt him, why wouldn't he continue just because Peter had fled? True, he would have to do it while hiding from the ministry, but I don't see Sirius as stopping. And it isn't as if Peter thought that Sirius had been 'recaptured'.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

...Regarding how Peter initially became a spy, IMO Peter had a huge advantage being a rat. He should have agreed to Vodemort and then just taken off. Voldemort wasn't about to go searching after Peter. Unless Voldemort did think of this and made plans to prevent Peter from fleeing.

Why do you believe Voldy wouldn't go searching after Peter? Peter was his link to finding the hiding spot of the Potters.

Voldy was worried enough about the prophecy to GO INTO HIDING himself (as per Sirius in PoA, Voldy had been in hiding since approx. the time of the prophecy). What better chance did Voldy have to find the Potters than through Peter? He certainly couldn't think Sirius might be a viable option (after all, Voldy knew Regulus by then). Whether he thought he could replace Peter with Remus, we don't know - but it would seem just as easy to hunt down Peter. (except as a rat)

It is also unknown whether Peter could have been tracked through the mark. The mark can be used to summon Voldy and/or other DEs - whether it can also be used to find one in hiding is unknown. Of course Peter could have chopped his own arm off.

But I doubt Voldy would have just let Peter flee.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Regarding how Peter initially became a spy, IMO Peter had a huge advantage being a rat. He should have agreed to Vodemort and then just taken off. Voldemort wasn't about to go searching after Peter. Unless Voldemort did think of this and made plans to prevent Peter from fleeing.

Fleeing was not Peter's only option, either. It's not a very attractive one - who wants to live years as a rat? Peter was driven to it by circumstances after the Potters were killed, I would say, he was not always thinking of that as a workable backup plan.

Another option theoretically open to Peter would have been to agree, and then turn around and tell his friends what had happened. Not necessarily to act as a double spy, a la Snape, that takes unusual nerve and talents we have no evidence Peter possessed in the area of Occlumency, but just so his friends know of the danger and don't tell him important stuff, and also perhaps help Peter to hide.

But Peter did not take this option. I wonder why he would not have told his friends. Personally, I think he did not feel an equal partner with the others, not loved, trusted, and important to the other Marauders. I think their relationship was such that Peter did not expect any of his friends would help him, and expected they might deride him for getting himself into this mess in the first place, for being such a weak thing and not defying Voldemort, etc. "You should have died rather than betray us" is what Sirius told him in PoA. (A perfectly understandable display of anger under the circumstances). I don't think Peter expected any more constructive advice or actions from them earlier, however.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by kittling

Can you supply any cannon showing Peter looking to others for advice? Personally I can’t think of any but my brain isn’t working too well atm so I might just be forgetting something fairly important.

Maybe not advice so much as leadership, someone to follow - it's often supposed in this thread that he joined the Order because the other three did.

I can sympathise with your reaction & I suspect that’s pretty much how JKR wanted her readers to react but this is not the judge character X thread but a character analysis thread and I’m more interested in they why’s & wherefore’s of a character than standing in judgement

How is it any different from saying the non-DE Marauders were bullies and arrogant? And in this case, I'm speaking of my opinion of Peter's actions, not Peter himself.

I don’t think that applies to the other marauders, Order members or the general public; the vast majority of people were not approached by DE & that is what makes Peters position so different & dangerous.

As an Order member, he would have been expected not to betray his fellow members. Whatever his reasons for joining, that expectation was there. And it's not unreasonable, imo. A soldier enlisting is also expected not to betray his fellows.

He was I think in a very lonely position from the moment he was targeted

He was, but he could have chosen, at some point in that year, to speak to Dumbledore, to get help. Dumbledore would have done something about it, to hide him, if not for Peter's own sake, to keep further information from getting to Voldemort.

It might or might not have worked but is that something you think many people would like to bet their lives on, and more importantly would Peter?

He was already betting his life when serving Voldemort - especially as Voldemort knew Peter was only loyal to himself.

Or maybe Peter was smart enough not to lie to Dumbledore – Severus shows that often we don’t have to outright lie to mislead people. And as we have seen Dumbledore is not infallible.

We don't know if Peter had any Occlumency skills. Even if he wasn't lying outright, something would have been discernible if Dumbledore had been using Legilimency.

I suspect Peter is actually both quite intelligent and not as awful at magic as some characters have suggested. His plot to throw the blame onto Sirius was a accomplished one and it worked – so he can’t be that dumb. And he performed the spell to resurrect Voldermort – which I doubt was one that was easy to cast.

Oh, I agree. He was smarter than he's given credit for. Maybe he's an underachiever, maybe he only puts in a huge effort when he sees benefit (like Crabbe and Goyle mastering Unforgivables). There's also the Animagus transformation -even if he needed help, as we are told in PoA, he managed it as a teenager - no mean feat.

While he was incorrect to suggest he had no choice his erstwhile friend was equally wrong to suggest that choosing death was a simple and easy decision – it simply isn’t.

It is very easy to say or think “I would never do that” but when the chips are down we don’t always react in the way we expect I think a lot of people would, understandably, end up choosing life.

No, it's not an easy decision, I'll admit. But does he ever show any remorse that we see that his decision cost his friends their lives? His explanations in the Shack are full of self-pity, imo and don't show any regret. In saying that a lot of people would choose life, I think a lot of people would also regret what their decision cost others.

Originally Posted by hwyla

Why do you think Sirius would not have continued to hunt him? He escaped Azkaban in order to hunt him, why wouldn't he continue just because Peter had fled? True, he would have to do it while hiding from the ministry, but I don't see Sirius as stopping. And it isn't as if Peter thought that Sirius had been 'recaptured'.

What would Sirius have to go on to find him again? It was a pure fluke with the newspaper that Sirius knew where Peter was once. Plus, Sirius didn't go searching after Peter. And he didn't know that Peter had returned to Voldemort, until much later.

Why do you believe Voldy wouldn't go searching after Peter? Peter was his link to finding the hiding spot of the Potters.

What about before Peter became SK?

Voldy was worried enough about the prophecy to GO INTO HIDING himself (as per Sirius in PoA, Voldy had been in hiding since approx. the time of the prophecy).

I can't remember any quote saying that Voldemort was in hiding, I seem to remember it being said that he was hunting the Potters for over a year, though.

It is also unknown whether Peter could have been tracked through the mark. The mark can be used to summon Voldy and/or other DEs - whether it can also be used to find one in hiding is unknown.

The Mark is probably how Voldemort found Karkaroff. But I doubt Peter was marked immediately he was approached for information. Greyback wore DE robes, fought with them, and wasn't branded, nor were the Snatchers. It seems the Mark was considered highly significant, I don't think Peter would have been marked from the beginning. Maybe after he'd passed a reasonable amount of information to Voldemort/the DEs who contacted him.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by hwyla

Why do you think Sirius would not have continued to hunt him? He escaped Azkaban in order to hunt him, why wouldn't he continue just because Peter had fled? True, he would have to do it while hiding from the ministry, but I don't see Sirius as stopping. And it isn't as if Peter thought that Sirius had been 'recaptured'.

Sirius went after Peter because he was at Hogwarts in perfect position to harm Harry. I doubt he would go hunting after Peter after all the events in PoA. He would have stayed for Harry rather than go haring after Peter. The only reason I can think of is that Peter panicked and assumed that the ministry would believe Sirius and start hunting for him.

Why do you believe Voldy wouldn't go searching after Peter? Peter was his link to finding the hiding spot of the Potters.

Voldy was worried enough about the prophecy to GO INTO HIDING himself (as per Sirius in PoA, Voldy had been in hiding since approx. the time of the prophecy). What better chance did Voldy have to find the Potters than through Peter? He certainly couldn't think Sirius might be a viable option (after all, Voldy knew Regulus by then). Whether he thought he could replace Peter with Remus, we don't know - but it would seem just as easy to hunt down Peter. (except as a rat)

Voldemort was never in hiding as far as I remember and Peter was made SK after almost a year of being a spy. Why would he go chasing after him? Voldemort already had a spy in Snape.

It is also unknown whether Peter could have been tracked through the mark. The mark can be used to summon Voldy and/or other DEs - whether it can also be used to find one in hiding is unknown. Of course Peter could have chopped his own arm off.

But I doubt Voldy would have just let Peter flee.

IMO it is quite likely that Voldemort had taken some measures to prevent Peter from fleeing. I'm not sure if it was the Dark Mark though. It seems a pretty easy way to identify whether someone is in cahoots with Voldemort.
It would be especially risky to have it on a spy unless there was some way of hiding it.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Voldemort was never in hiding as far as I remember and Peter was made SK after almost a year of being a spy. Why would he go chasing after him? Voldemort already had a spy in Snape.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Voldemort does not relegate universal spying duties to a single person. We know from the Second Wizarding War that it's his style to have spies everywhere - to infiltrate everything he can infiltrate.

Peter would have been the one spying on the Potters because he was their friend. And nobody except Voldemort appears to have known that Peter was the SK/spy. It's pretty clear from PoA that the double agent you mentioned was not in the loop WRT Peter.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Voldemort does not relegate universal spying duties to a single person. We know from the Second Wizarding War that it's his style to have spies everywhere - to infiltrate everything he can infiltrate.

Peter would have been the one spying on the Potters because he was their friend. And nobody except Voldemort appears to have known that Peter was the SK/spy. It's pretty clear from PoA that the double agent you mentioned was not in the loop WRT Peter.

Fair point. I guess Voldemort did have measures in place to prevent Peter from fleeing. I think he would have been aware of the possibility that Peter might try to escape.

[MinervasCat]

Sirius would have died for his friends and expected the same from Peter. Was this unfair or was this an integral part of being a Marauder?

I think it was in integral part of being a friend. I think they considered themselves (at least 3 of them did) friends, and, expected loyalty from one another because of that.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I think Lupin was glad to have people who accepted him and were willing to be with him during his "darker times." James provided financial assistance to Lupin even after they left school, so, they must have been fairly close, even if not quite as close as James and Sirius.

IMO, Peter must have felt less a part of the group or he would not have turned on them so easily, leading to James' and Lily's deaths and to Sirius' imprisonment. The only secret he seemed to keep was Lupin being a werewolf. That doesn't seem to come out until after the end of PoA.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

I don't know. Like I said above, Peter seems to have kept Remus' alter-ego to himself, even from Voldemort for a while. I would say if he'd told Voldemort, Lucius Malfoy would have been aware of it and Remus would never have been allowed to even start teaching at Hogwarts.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

Adventerous. I feel this was just a way of flaunting both the school rules by sneaking out and flaunting MoM/WW rules by not registering. If they were noble, they could have learned to make the potion that Snape made to help Remus during PoA, which would have been more helpful to him. Hermoine learned to make several very complicated potions, so, with their backgrounds (all from magic families) and abilities they should have been able to work it out.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

It didn't seem to make much difference. I think they would have cheered James on as Lily was beautiful, talented, and, very, very well liked by other students and by the teachers. She seemed a prime catch for an adventerous jock.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders? Did she become the fifth Marauder, so to speak?

They didn't seem to change that much. They still seemed to hang around together and, when Lily and James got married, Sirius was best man, then, later Harry's godfather. I don't think she was ever considered a part of the group because it doesn't seem that they shared much with her. She seemed unaware of quite a bit that they are in to most of the time

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

Remus seemed to be an easy-going type, so, I don't think he'd have been bothered. They may have told him he'd be godfather for the next child. I don't think Pettigrew really cared one way or the other. I think Pettigrew was out for Pettigrew, and, unless there was something in it for him, it wouldn't have mattered.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

Again, I feel that he was out for himself, and, it didn't matter to him as long as he was able to get away after he completed his foul deed.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

Possibly. But, I think Lupin would have anyway. I've already stated my opinion of Pettigrew and his motives for anything? Pettigrew.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George?

Fred and George didn't seem to be as malicious with their pranks. They didn't seem into personal harassment. Their pranks were more general and joking, and their "victims" more widespread. Even though their pranks were not meant to be harmful, they did go wrong occasionally. But, I think this was really accidental and not on purpose -- except what they did to Umbridge when they were leaving Hogwarts.

Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as (un)funny as the Weasley twins?

I don't think the Marauders were funny. I see them more in the same ilk as Draco and his buddies Crabbe and Goyle. Their pranks seemed to have more malice than mirth.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

I think they lose some of their original image as dashing pranksters and come across more as spoiled bullies. I really was a bit disappointed in James, but, more for Harry's sake. It made him feel bad to see some of the things his dad did as a Marauder.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?[/b]

Remus. He had a terrible handicap, but, still wanted to go to Hogwarts and wanted to hone his wizarding skills. He wold have had to work twice as hard as the others since he was missing school quite a bit during his werewolf transformations. But, he made Prefect, which was a huge accomplishment, IMO. I sometimes thought that Remus was an excuse for the others to break rules.

[CurseCruciatus]

I can't believe I haven't answered these questions yet. Okay, here I go.

Sirius would have died for his friends and expected the same from Peter. Was this unfair or was this an integral part of being a Marauder?
Sirius and Peter were very differently people so they thought very differently. Sirius was more of a brave and gallant character, and I don't think he was being unfair as much as naive to think that Peter would do the same. They also had pretty different positions. Peter might have felt a little out of place or not belonging with the other three, even though they treated him the same way they treated each other. As a Marauder, he was IMO on the end of the line and the least "cool", and I think he realized that.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think they admired their friends and were rather pleased to have been a part of their circle at all. However, they probably did feel a little envious at times, especially Peter. Remus probably felt a bit too, but he was on the more mature side and he probably understood perfectly.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
The secret keeper was most likely one of the four Marauders. Peter was said to have been dead, blown to pieces by Sirius for having "stood up" to him. He was also the innocent, nervous one, and probably not the first to be suspected.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
I think it was a bit of both. They were definitely good, loyal friends, and would have done anything for each other. The fact that becoming Animagi would have suited their adventurous streak did not hurt either.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
Sirius probably didn't take it too seriously (no pun intended) and thought James was a bit of an idiot for being so obsessed with her, but he probably encouraged/teased him anyways. Peter was probably jealous/admiring as always. I think Remus was quite happy that James was pursuing a "good" girl like Lily Evans. As seen in SWM, James suddenly pulled on a more mature face when Lily came by. I think Lupin was quite happy that there was something he really wanted other than to cause mischief.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders? Did she become the fifth Marauder, so to speak?
I don't think she did. I think she matured the tone a bit, but they remained largely the same people they always were and she just shrunk James's head a bit.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I don't think they were actually hurt by the decision, as they couldn't have really expected any differently. They might have been a bit envious but I don't think either of them dwelled on the matter.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think so. Lupin and Sirius saw their best friend killed as a result, and for them (definitely for Sirius, if not for Lupin), to betray friends was the most despicable crime imaginable. I think their love and caring for James and Lily was far greater than their ability to forgive and forget.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
It's very possible. I think Remus would have joined on free will, especially since there weren't too many real occupations he could have taken, being a werewolf. I don't think Peter was actually given pressure from his friends, but it was kind of expected that he joined. I think joining the Order also gave him the sense of belonging, the cause for many of his actions. I don't think Peter had completely crossed over at the time, though he was definitely having DE leanings.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as (un)funny as the Weasley twins?
I think their senses of humour were very different. I think James and Sirius were more teasing and troublesome, while Fred and George had more creative humour. I'm sure James and Sirius had their humourous moments that did not involve bullying, but we didn't exactly see too many of their scenes. Aside from bullying Snape, the only humourous point we really read about was the jokes about Remus being a werewolf after the OWLs, and I thought it was pretty funny. I don't see much of an indication that James and Sirius were unfunny, and I think Fred and George are also quite funny.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
They were certainly portrayed in a much better way than they were in SWM. I don't think it was favourable or unfavourable. However, I don't think I can fairly answer this question, being an extremely pro-James person.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
I like James best because of his courage, his sense of humour, his loyalty, and his ability to love. I think the Marauders definitely did appreciate these traits. I also really loved his sudden change and character development, and his unfailing love for Lily.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Peter would have been the one spying on the Potters because he was their friend. And nobody except Voldemort appears to have known that Peter was the SK/spy. It's pretty clear from PoA that the double agent you mentioned was not in the loop WRT Peter.

Sirius says in PoA that he heard people talking in their sleep in Azkaban, about Peter and how he double-crossed them, and that he's lucky they think him dead. I know all the DEs didn't know about Peter, or else Snape would have known, but some of them seem to have known.

[quote]

Originally Posted by CurseCruciatus

Sirius and Peter were very differently people so they thought very differently. Sirius was more of a brave and gallant character, and I don't think he was being unfair as much as naive to think that Peter would do the same.

I think that's an interesting slant. Sirius may well have believed that his friends would do as he would when faced with a moral dilemma. Betraying a friend is clearly abhorrent to him, and that's why he's so shocked.

I don't think they were actually hurt by the decision, as they couldn't have really expected any differently. They might have been a bit envious but I don't think either of them dwelled on the matter.

I don't know if they'd be too envious, really. I mean, they probably expected there would be more mini-Potters and that they would become godparents to these kids.

I don't think Peter had completely crossed over at the time, though he was definitely having DE leanings.

I don't think Peter had DE leanings, as in their prejudices, or cruelty, or desire for power. I think it was purely self-preservation. I really think he'd have preferred to stay out of it altogether and gone unnoticed by Voldemort.

I think their senses of humour were very different. I think James and Sirius were more teasing and troublesome, while Fred and George had more creative humour. I'm sure James and Sirius had their humourous moments that did not involve bullying, but we didn't exactly see too many of their scenes.

That's just it -we don't see many of the Marauders' scenes. If all we saw of Fred and George was of them stuffing Montague into the Vanishing Cabinet, assessments of their character would be very different. We don't get to see the Marauders in class, or inside Gryffindor Tower, so we really don't know how they got on with most of the others outside their group.

I think it was in integral part of being a friend. I think they considered themselves (at least 3 of them did) friends, and, expected loyalty from one another because of that.

It was also an integral part of being in the Order, imo. Whether or not Peter considered the others friends, he knew that he was a member of the Order.

I don't know. Like I said above, Peter seems to have kept Remus' alter-ego to himself, even from Voldemort for a while. I would say if he'd told Voldemort, Lucius Malfoy would have been aware of it and Remus would never have been allowed to even start teaching at Hogwarts.

That's an interesting point - Remus' secret doesn't seem to be out at this point. Although, Voldemort may not necessarily share everything he knows with Lucius. Or, Peter may not have told Voldemort because he was only interested in getting information on the Potters from Peter at the time.

Adventerous. I feel this was just a way of flaunting both the school rules by sneaking out and flaunting MoM/WW rules by not registering. If they were noble, they could have learned to make the potion that Snape made to help Remus during PoA, which would have been more helpful to him.

The Wolfsbane Potion is referred to in PoA as a very recent discovery. Which indicates that it wasn't in existence at the time the Marauders were in school. And if it were, I think Dumbledore would have had Slughorn make it.

I don't think the Marauders were funny. I see them more in the same ilk as Draco and his buddies Crabbe and Goyle. Their pranks seemed to have more malice than mirth.

Apart from the fact that the Marauders weren't junior DEs, weren't prejudiced against Muggleborns and weren't practicing Unforgivables in school.

[Bella_Crucio_U]

It was also an integral part of being in the Order, imo. Whether or not Peter considered the others friends, he knew that he was a member of the Order.

I definitely agree with you. I'm pretty sure I said that in one of my other posts. I think anyone who joined the Order should be willing to die for the cause. They need to look out for each other and realize as Sirius says "There are things worth dying for". I think in the Marauders case it did also have to do with them being friends. Sirius was a very loyal person who made the mistake in believing Wormtail would die for him. James and Remus would have died for Sirius for sure and I think Sirius just assumed Wormtail would too. Sadly Wromtail ruined all their lives instead.

[hwyla]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Sirius went after Peter because he was at Hogwarts in perfect position to harm Harry. I doubt he would go hunting after Peter after all the events in PoA. He would have stayed for Harry rather than go haring after Peter.

But Sirius cannot STAY for Harry without having Peter to give to the Ministry. He would still be a wanted man and would still need to go into hiding. IF he wanted to have Harry come live with him, then he needed to prove his innocence (at the very least to Albus, so they could live in hiding at #12, but preferably to the Ministry, so they can live openly).

Additionally, Sirius WANTED revenge. He was not after Peter just to protect Harry. As he put it that night in the Shack 'he wanted to commit the crime for which he was imprisoned'. He did not break out of Azkaban to get at Peter previously because he didn't have a clue where to find him - not until he saw the photo of the Weasley family in Egypt.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Voldemort was never in hiding as far as I remember and Peter was made SK after almost a year of being a spy. Why would he go chasing after him? Voldemort already had a spy in Snape.

IF I recall correctly, according to Sirius in PoA, Voldy went into hiding approx 15 years prior. This is at a time when Harry is not yet 14. Therefore, Voldy went into hiding approx. a year before Harry's birth - despite the fact that he was supposedly 'winning' at the time. The only thing we know of that was happening around that time was the prophecy (less a few months short of a year).

And while Peter wasn't made SK until almost a year as a spy for Voldy, Albus told the Potters to use a Fidelius because it was so hard to hide from Voldy (as per Fudge in PoA). In other words, they were having trouble staying hidden. Therefore, Peter was giving up their locations all along. I believe it was Minerva who said Voldy's spy was reporting to him on the Potters' "movements". How else would they be sure that the spy was most certainly a Marauder? I cannot see James and Sirius believing Remus was the traitor UNLESS it was down to a choice between him or Peter.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Sirius says in PoA that he heard people talking in their sleep in Azkaban, about Peter and how he double-crossed them, and that he's lucky they think him dead. I know all the DEs didn't know about Peter, or else Snape would have known, but some of them seem to have known.

Thanks for the clarification. It looks like I need to read PoA again. Twist my arm!

[Nyjets4004]

What gets me thinking is the fact, that Peter is part of the Marauders. Why would James, Sirius, and Lupin accept him as one of theirs, i see lupin as the kid that gets picked on and i cant see James standing up for Peter.

[hwyla]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Sirius says in PoA that he heard people talking in their sleep in Azkaban, about Peter and how he double-crossed them, and that he's lucky they think him dead. I know all the DEs didn't know about Peter, or else Snape would have known, but some of them seem to have known.

I'm not positive we can use this as proof that other DEs knew of Peter. Sirius certainly BELIEVED they were speaking of Peter, but they apparently never used his name. They only refer to the 'double-crosser'.

Remember that a few of those prisoners had only been brought in during that last year of VW1. A time in which Albus had a spy among them. Consider also that we know for a fact that one of those same group of prisoners (Bella) was quite convinced that the traitor was someone other than Peter (see SpinnersEnd chapter of HBP). Even to the point of wanting to know where he was on the night Voldy 'fell' (the first time). And Bella was not alone in her suspicions. It is suggested that she take his response to her back to the others. It is quite likely that the 'double-crosser' they spoke of in their sleep was therefore him - not Peter.

Just because Sirius THOUGHT they spoke of Peter does not mean they DID. He was unaware there was another person they might consider a 'double-crosser'. And IF he had something to do with their arrests, then it is quite likely they would mean him, not Peter - whom most of them most likely would not know about.

Now ONE of the DEs probably knew about Peter. Whichever one was actually used to approach him. We have no idea whom that might be - or whether he/she was even still alive at the end of VW1.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I'm really surprised that Peter was able to avoid detection for over a year. I always saw Dumbledore as someone who more often than not performed Legilimency whenever he spoke to people. A habit if you like.

I think Peter was not suspected because the Potters were safe. I think it was as simple as that. The Potters were already in hiding and since Voldemort never attacked their home or even came near it, I think Dumbledore ruled out all the Marauders. I think he became suspicious only when Snape (I assume it was he) came with the information that the Potters are going to be attacked with the help of someone close to them (to tell Voldemort about the wards, I presume).

Even assuming that Dumbledore doesn't use it always, Dumbledore knew that someone close to the Potters was leaking information. I can only assume that Dumbledore didn't believe Peter to be capable of it or maybe Voldemort performed some sort of charm that would help him avoid detection.

I think once Dumbledore knew someone close to the Potters were leaking information and might have concluded that this could very well be the spy who was in the Order for over a year, his suspicions IMO went to Sirius (maybe because of his family which supported Voldemort and because Regulus and Bellatrix were DEs and Narcissa married to one). It was to prove to Dumbledore that Sirius was indeed trustworthy and would rather die then betray him, that James chose him as the SK IMO.

Originally Posted by hwyla

I'm not positive we can use this as proof that other DEs knew of Peter. Sirius certainly BELIEVED they were speaking of Peter, but they apparently never used his name. They only refer to the 'double-crosser'.

I think so too. I think they believed Snape to be the double crosser, for Snape by that time was already in Hogwarts as Professor; Sirius believed Peter was the double crosser, because he did not even know Snape had been a DE (he says so to Harry in GOF).

I wonder Peter was not confused, because he never double crossed Voldemort; he was hiding to stay away from the Marauders and the Order, for they believed him dead. He says he does not know what Sirius was talking about; it may mean both the fact he had not double crossed and the fact he was trying to think a way out of the currect situation he was in IMO.

IF I recall correctly, according to Sirius in PoA, Voldy went into hiding approx 15 years prior.

It's 12 years. Probably from the time Voldemort 'died'.

POA - The Servant of Lord Voldemort 'I'll tell you why,' said Black. 'Because you never did anything for anyone unless you could see what was in it for you. Voldemort's been in hiding for twelve years, they say he's half dead. You weren't about to commit murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard, who'd lost all his powers were you? You'd want to be quite sure he was the biggest bully in the playground before you went back to him, wouldn't you? Why else did you find a wizard family to take you in? Keeping an ear out for news, weren't you Peter? Just in case your old protector regained strength, and it was safe to join him ...'

[hwyla]

Thanks for the correction Green Woods - altho' I think it might be a 'correction' in later editions then for JKRs 'bad math'. I distinctly remember gnawing on that info with several other people - wondering why Voldy had gone into hiding before Harry had even been born.

However, IF Peter wasn't suspected because the Potters were 'safe' then we were given false clues in PoA. Minerva spoke of 'Sirius'/spy/reallyPeter as telling Voldy about the Potters 'movements' and Fudge said Albus counseled them to cast a Fidelius because it was too hard to hide from Voldy. That means there has to be at least one 'escape' for it suddenly to be more difficult than before.

And I just cannot see James and Sirius believing the traitor to be Remus unless there was ironclad proof that the spy had to be a Marauder - as in info that only a Marauder could supply - not just any other Order member. And that pretty much has to be about the Potters.