Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

I only meant I would like some more details about Lily. It's my general complaint about the books. Instead of saying us "Lily was great" she could show us something as a proof. In the movies they added Lupin's speech in PoA and Slughorn's little story in HBP. Pity that JKR didn't think of something like this.

Thing is, I don't Lily is meant to be analyzed in such a way. She was never really a whole character unto herself, Lily was always more of an archetype than anything else. She was basically the "Ideal". The Ideal Mom, the Ideal friend, the Ideal Witch. The person whose basically raised on a pedestal by the narrative to be a Saint more or less.

We're not meant to see her as a character with real flaws or anything.

[snugglepot]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

What is "AU?"

Alternate Universe

[sailorlum]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

What is "AU?"

AU = Alternate Universe

"What if?" scenarios create them. My sig describes an example of one.

ETA:

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Thing is, I don't Lily is meant to be analyzed in such a way. She was never really a whole character unto herself, Lily was always more of an archetype than anything else. She was basically the "Ideal". The Ideal Mom, the Ideal friend, the Ideal Witch. The person whose basically raised on a pedestal by the narrative to be a Saint more or less.

We're not meant to see her as a character with real flaws or anything.

I strongly disagree with that. JKR has said that all her characters are flawed, and that would include Lily, so Lily wasn't meant to be seen as a Saint or an Ideal (I'd don't think we are meant to objectify her in such a way, but I think we are meant to see her as a good person).

And I see flaws in her in the text. The flaws I see are 1) woobieying/making excuses for Snape a bit (before he lays down the final straw), and 2) she can be a bit rash in her judgements sometimes (like when she assumes Snape must have dropped the tree on Petunia on purpose, probably because she has such good control of her powers, IMO), and 3) she can have a temper and not always take the high ground, like when she throws the letter Petunia wrote to Dumbledore asking to go to Hogwarts in her face (and she snooped in Petunia's room and sneaked a look at the letter with Snape), or when she calls Snape "Snivellus" and insults him about his underpants after he calls her Mudblood. Lily's a very good person, I think, but she's no saint and she's not perfect.

[ShadowSonic]

Well, compared to the massive "Broken Pedestal" thing that happens to James Potter, Lily is still treated as a Saint by the narrative. Even in HBP all Slughorn has to say about her is Saintly stuff.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Thing is, I don't Lily is meant to be analyzed in such a way. She was never really a whole character unto herself, Lily was always more of an archetype than anything else. She was basically the "Ideal". The Ideal Mom, the Ideal friend, the Ideal Witch. The person whose basically raised on a pedestal by the narrative to be a Saint more or less.

We're not meant to see her as a character with real flaws or anything.

I agree. While she does have tiny flaws, her flaws do not drive the narrative in any way. It is her goodness that drives the narrative. From sacrificing herself for Harry despite Voldemort's reprieve, to being part of the Order, to befriending a werewolf, to being Snape's reason for living, Lily's part is the good girl who everyone loved. Other than Petunia we don't see anyone who dislikes Lily. And Petunia only dislikes her through jealousy, not because Lily wronged her on a personal level. Even the times we see her acting less than perfect, mostly regarding Snape, there is a serious argument to be made that Snape reaped what he sowed in regards to Lily. Her actions while not "nice" could certainly be viewed as more than justified.

Lily is meant to be seen as the exact opposite of Voldemort. The one that Harry struggles to emulate but ends up more like James. And that's okay.

[sailorlum]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Well, compared to the massive "Broken Pedestal" thing that happens to James Potter, Lily is still treated as a Saint by the narrative. Even in HBP all Slughorn has to say about her is Saintly stuff.

Well, first of all, "Lily is still treated as a Saint by the narrative" is an opinion, not a fact. What makes a person a Saint or not is debatable, for one, and whether a person fulfills all those qualities necessary, is another, and whether the text is really trying to imply all that, is a third.

I agree that both Lily and James were put on a pedestal before OotP, and that James's pedestal got quite broken, but Lily did get some fleshing out of character that made her more than a Saint on a pedestal, even in OotP, and especially in DH, IMO.

Also, Slughorn wasn't presenting her as a Saint, just as a student who was one of his absolute favorites (and he said she was cheeky, which he was clearly amused by, but not everyone likes cheek, and I wouldn't call it Saintly even though I like some good cheek myself, at times), and it's not like Slughorn is presented in the text as having perfect judgement on goodness (this is the guy who thought it was okay to tell Tom Riddle about Horcruxes, for heaven's sake, and he wanted all the Blacks in his Slug Club, even though most of them were pure-blood supremacists).

And it's not like there are going to be a lot of people on the good side who are going to be eager to focus on the flaws of Harry's dead parents when speaking to Harry. The whole reason Harry's parents got put on a pedestal, in the first place, was because most of the characters were focusing on their best qualities around poor orphaned Harry, IMO. They weren't eager to talk of James's bullying days or of Lily's former friendship with Snape (which was well intentioned but ended badly, not that it didn't do any good, but it wasn't all down to Lily, since she can't control whether Snape would one day finally get his priorities straight and do a Heel Face Turn).

Granted, I think it does say something that so many of the "team good" characters had plenty of good things to say about Lily, but I don't think that eliminates her humanity or reduces her to a mere archetype, after all is said and done. It's just testimony to her being a good person, IMO. Without seeing her in action in OotP and in DH, she may have remained on a pedestal, but I think those books gave her enough fleshing out to see that she was a regular person, like everyone else, albeit still a very good person.

And once more, seeing as JKR said that none of her characters were without flaw, it seems that JKR did not intend for her readers to come away from the text at the end thinking any of them were a Saint on a pedestal.

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

I agree. While she does have tiny flaws, her flaws do not drive the narrative in any way. It is her goodness that drives the narrative. From sacrificing herself for Harry despite Voldemort's reprieve, to being part of the Order, to befriending a werewolf, to being Snape's reason for living, Lily's part is the good girl who everyone loved. Other than Petunia we don't see anyone who dislikes Lily. And Petunia only dislikes her through jealousy, not because Lily wronged her on a personal level. Even the times we see her acting less than perfect, mostly regarding Snape, there is a serious argument to be made that Snape reaped what he sowed in regards to Lily. Her actions while not "nice" could certainly be viewed as more than justified.

Lily is meant to be seen as the exact opposite of Voldemort. The one that Harry struggles to emulate but ends up more like James. And that's okay.

Likewise to the above, this is all opinion and debatable.

Also, I don't see Lily's goodness as driving the whole narrative, although it does drive parts of it, but it's all connected and all the pieces matter, IMO. For instance, if Harry hadn't decided to fight Voldemort, things would have turned out very differently, and nothing Lily did guaranteed what kind of choice Harry would make, and she wasn't the only one responsible for him being alive. If Snape hadn't decided to continue to love Lily, things would have turned out very differently (Snape wouldn't have asked Voldemort to spare her, so she wouldn't have been given a choice, which is what allowed her sacrifice to work a powerful ancient magic).

Furthermore, Lily didn't seem to be a close friend of Lupin's till after she started dating James, and I don't see how her friendship with him drove the narrative any more than the others' friendship with him did. Also, there were plenty of other people in the Order, including James, so I don't see how her membership in the Order drove the narrative any more than James's or another person's. And it's ultimately up to Snape what his reason for living is, Lily had no control over that. She inspired him, yes, but he had to make the choice to live for her.

And Lily's flaws did drive part of the narrative (her narrative, at least), IMO. One might say that she trusted Snape for too long, which led to more heartache for her. And while Petunia was breaking away for reasons of jealousy, Lily reading that private letter to Dumbledore helped drive a wedge between her and her sister even more, IMO.

And Petunia wasn't the only one to dislike Lily (Vernon didn't like her either, for one). And the true believer pure-blood supremacist crowd didn't like her, either. With the DEs in general, Lily was a Muggle-born and on the chop. Voldemort wanted to turn her and James because they were powerful, not because they were good. And although JKR said that Lily was popular, like Ginny, that doesn't make her a Saint on pedestal. Ginny wasn't a Saint on a pedestal, after all. We just don't get to see as much of Lily, but I think there's enough there to get that Lily is not meant to be a mere archetype and is meant to be a person. And it's not like there aren't very good people in real life, so why shouldn't there be very good people in fiction?

Also, according to Dumbledore, and I agree, aside from looks, Harry was more like Lily, than James. (And Slughorn seemed to think Harry was more like Lily than James, too, not that he's as good a judge of character as Dumbledore.) I do think JKR was trying to tell us something in having those characters point out Harry's greater similarity to Lily, but it wasn't that either Harry or Lily were perfect or Saints on a pedestal, only that they were both good people.

ETA: Although I'd say that Lily was justified in walking away from Snape after he said he didn't need her help while hurling a racial slur at her, I'd say that she wasn't justified in calling him Snivellus and insulting his underpants, seeing as two wrongs don't make a right (even though Snape's racial slur was even worse than Lily's personal insults to him). Definitely, not a Saintly move for Lily to pull, on that account, IMO. A Saint would turn the other cheek, there, IMO. A Saint would likely call Snape out on his wrongness, but wouldn't pile more wrongness on top of it, even if it's less wrongness, IMO.

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Thing is, I don't Lily is meant to be analyzed in such a way. She was never really a whole character unto herself, Lily was always more of an archetype than anything else. She was basically the "Ideal". The Ideal Mom, the Ideal friend, the Ideal Witch. The person whose basically raised on a pedestal by the narrative to be a Saint more or less.

We're not meant to see her as a character with real flaws or anything.

Ideal Mom? - because she died? Gosh, talk about a positive message concerning the motherhood.

Ideal Friend? - Maybe, but certainly not to Snape. SWM clearly shows the flirtation with James was far more interesting for her than helping her supposed best friend. And I don't remember any other close friend of hers.

Ideal Witch? - hm, she was good in Charms. And in Potions. Just a good student.

But you are right, she is just not "real".

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

Ideal Friend? - Maybe, but certainly not to Snape. SWM clearly shows the flirtation with James was far more interesting for her than helping her supposed best friend. And I don't remember any other close friend of hers.

I think she was a better friend to Snape than he was to her. As a minority myself, I would have reacted just as Lily did had my "best friend" hurled the N-Word at me. The friendship would have ended the moment that word came out of his mouth. Full stop.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by sailorlum

And once more, seeing as JKR said that none of her characters were without flaw, it seems that JKR did not intend for her readers to come away from the text at the end thinking any of them were a Saint on a pedestal.

I fully agree. None of them are flawless.

ETA: Although I'd say that Lily was justified in walking away from Snape after he said he didn't need her help while hurling a racial slur at her, I'd say that she wasn't justified in calling him Snivellus and insulting his underpants, seeing as two wrongs don't make a right (even though Snape's racial slur was even worse than Lily's personal insults to him). Definitely, not a Saintly move for Lily to pull, on that account, IMO. A Saint would turn the other cheek, there, IMO. A Saint would likely call Snape out on his wrongness, but wouldn't pile more wrongness on top of it, even if it's less wrongness, IMO.

An insulting nickname is nowhere near being on a par with a racist slur. Especially not at a time when Muggleborns were being murdered by those who considered them "mudbloods". IMO, Lily showed remarkable restraint in only verbally responding to racist abuse. From Lily's perspective, she was probably feeling hurt, angry, devastated, foolish, betrayed. She reacted like an ordinary human being who was feeling hurt and betrayed, not like a saint. IMO, expecting a saintly response from Lily isn't fair unless saintly behaviour is expected from all other characters.

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

Ideal Mom? - because she died? Gosh, talk about a positive message concerning the motherhood.

Not because she died -because she died to save her child. Because she chose to die protecting her beloved child rather than take an offer to live and watch him be murdered which was abominable to her. IMO, that is a positive message. Her child was the most important person in the world to her.

Ideal Friend? - Maybe, but certainly not to Snape. SWM clearly shows the flirtation with James was far more interesting for her than helping her supposed best friend. And I don't remember any other close friend of hers.

She intervened and tried to protect Snape, until he hurled racial abuse at her. Lily refused to be a doormat. She refused to have people in her life who racially abused her. I don't think that makes her a bad friend. I think it makes her a person who has self-respect. I think it makes her a person who finally realised that they need to get away from people who are hurting them, away from toxic relationships.
I don't think she was flirting - she was expressing disgust with James' behaviour and threatening to hex him.

Ideal Witch? - hm, she was good in Charms. And in Potions. Just a good student.

"Just a good student" doesn't explain why Voldemort was willing to make an exception to the fanatical bigotry of his criminal organisation to have her join. He wanted Lily to join, despite her blood status. Suggests she was rather more than a good student.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I think she was a better friend to Snape than he was to her. As a minority myself, I would have reacted just as Lily did had my "best friend" hurled the N-Word at me. The friendship would have ended the moment that word came out of his mouth. Full stop.

I agree. I actually think Lily showed restraint in not hexing him in that scene. Considering Hermione physically attacked Ron with a spell after he kissed another girl, I can't imagine the harm Hermione would have inflicted on a friend who hung around DEs and then racially abused her.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I fully agree. None of them are flawless.

None of them are flawless, BUT an ideal doesn't have to be flawless. It is up to the person who looks up to said person as to whether or not they are admired and respected. Lily's flaws do not drive the story. Her GOOD qualities drive the story. Her ability to forgive, her ability to treat people kindly, her ability to be observant, her morals, her toughness, her brains, her beauty...these are the things that everyone mentions about her. Not that she didn't have flaws, because everyone does, but her flaws are not what sets her apart...



An insulting nickname is nowhere near being on a par with a racist slur. Especially not at a time when Muggleborns were being murdered by those who considered them "mudbloods". IMO, Lily showed remarkable restraint in only verbally responding to racist abuse. From Lily's perspective, she was probably feeling hurt, angry, devastated, foolish, betrayed. She reacted like an ordinary human being who was feeling hurt and betrayed, not like a saint. IMO, expecting a saintly response from Lily isn't fair unless saintly behaviour is expected from all other characters.

This was a racial slur, on top of lack of appreciation, on top of Snape's disregard for her opinions and feelings prior to that...Snape uttered the straw that broke the camel's back..



Not because she died -because she died to save her child. Because she chose to die protecting her beloved child rather than take an offer to live and watch him be murdered which was abominable to her. IMO, that is a positive message. Her child was the most important person in the world to her.

As a mother myself my children know that I will die for them. No questions. I think, though, she was a real role model for Harry. Or she would have been had she lived.



She intervened and tried to protect Snape, until he hurled racial abuse at her. Lily refused to be a doormat. She refused to have people in her life who racially abused her. I don't think that makes her a bad friend. I think it makes her a person who has self-respect. I think it makes her a person who finally realised that they need to get away from people who are hurting them, away from toxic relationships.
I don't think she was flirting - she was expressing disgust with James' behaviour and threatening to hex him.

Also let's remember this was not the first time that Snape and James had gotten into it with one another and she still stepped in when she thought it was getting out of hand. This incident also featured not one but TWO of Snape's own spells. James used Snape's levicorpus and Snape used sectumsempra. Had Snape not been devising ways to humiliate people James would never have been able to use it against him. And sectumsempra is just dark magic. Snape was shown is his underwear, James actually lost blood.



"Just a good student" doesn't explain why Voldemort was willing to make an exception to the fanatical bigotry of his criminal organisation to have her join. He wanted Lily to join, despite her blood status. Suggests she was rather more than a good student.

I agree.



I agree. I actually think Lily showed restraint in not hexing him in that scene. Considering Hermione physically attacked Ron with a spell after he kissed another girl, I can't imagine the harm Hermione would have inflicted on a friend who hung around DEs and then racially abused her.

I don't think she had to retrain herself. By then she was officially over Snape as far as a friedship goes. Why waste her breath on him anymore?

[sailorlum]

I agree with FurryDice here and would like to reiterate that all that good stuff about Lily that makes her very good and admirable and inspiring and whatnot, doesn't reduce her to a mere archetypal Ideal/Saint on a pedestal (it doesn't eliminate her humanity or make her unreal, since there are very good, talented, people out there in real life, at the very least I've met some), even though she may be a realistic ideal in a reader's opinion, IMO.

Also, yeah, I really don't see how Lily's reaction to James in SWM can be considered flirting. Even if one went with the theory that Lily had an actual crush on James (I think she saw some attractive qualities about him, but that she wasn't attracted to him, due to his deal breaking behavior and the fact that she didn't even like him enough to be friends), but I see "Lily had some kind of a crush on James" as a possible interp (although not a necessary interp), considering that they do wind up together and esp. if one is inclined to ship Lily/James as an OTP, but that still wouldn't make what happened in SWM be flirting, IMO. I can see where one who goes with that theory might see unresolved sexual tension (UST for short) between them, but UST does not mean that every interaction is flirting, especially when the interaction in question is one party expressing disgust with the other party and seriously threatening to hex them. It's not like Lily was being playful in her attitude, and using a teasing voice and a wink or something. She was seriously ticked off, IMO. It's like Hermione sending the birds after Ron in HBP (even though she was in love with Ron, that was clearly not flirting), IMO.

(PS: There should have been a "much worse" after "even though Snape's racial slur was even worse than Lily's personal insults to him", because some anvils need to be dropped, I agree. Even though I think it should go without saying that my "even worse" includes "not on par"/"nowhere near on par", considering all I've said up to this point, but it doesn't hurt to drop that anvil again.)

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

I don't think she had to retrain herself. By then she was officially over Snape as far as a friedship goes. Why waste her breath on him anymore?

Well, if she figured the friendship was totally dead, then she'd have even less reason for restraint, IMO, if her temptation was revenge, which it seemed to be since she bothered to insult him at all. It seemed like she was going for the worst thing she could think of (that didn't make her complicit in pure-blood supremacy, like outing him over his half-blood status, assuming he was passing), even though what insults she did hurl at him were not nearly on par with the racial slur, IMO.

And I'm not so sure the friendship was really officially totally dead to Lily until Lily came down to talk to Snape, and he revealed that all he wanted to apologize for was calling her a Mudblood. I think she may have had a glimmer of hope that he was going to turn around, when she first came down, because although she said she only came down because Mary said he was going to sleep there all night, she could have just let him sleep there all night and then just walk on by in the morning, so I think she might have hoped that his willingness to sleep there all night was a sign of remorse for more than just calling her Mudblood. Although the friendship being officially dead in her eyes immediately after the slur slinging is a definite possibility, I think. I think I would have seen the friendship as kaput, at that point, but I think I would have lost patience with Snape even sooner, so IDK, IDK.

[Moriath]

I'm thrilled that this discussion has been so peaceful and constructive for so long! However, I would appreciate if there were not many more AU/what if scenarios in future posts. This is Legilimency Studies after all.

[sailorlum]

Oops, perhaps I should have moved the AU/what if discussion over to the General 'What if...?' thread, which I just noticed today after poking around to see if there was an "AU/what if" thread that I'd totally forgotten about. Whoops! Sorry bout that! *^.^* I'll bookmark it so I remember, should the situation come up again.

Yay for peaceful and constructive discussion in the Lily thread, though!

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I think she was a better friend to Snape than he was to her. As a minority myself, I would have reacted just as Lily did had my "best friend" hurled the N-Word at me. The friendship would have ended the moment that word came out of his mouth. Full stop.

If any of my friends was in the situation Snape was, I would hex James into a slimy slug in 5 seconds, instead of babbling with the bully. But of course. Lily know better. Luckily, Snape gave her an ideal pretext to end the friendship she didn't need anymore.

And I'm sorry, I will insist, calling a mother "ideal" because she died is something the bother me deeply, even if she died protecting her child. Heroical, yes, ideal, no.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

If any of my friends was in the situation Snape was, I would hex James into a slimy slug in 5 seconds, instead of babbling with the bully. But of course. Lily know better. Luckily, Snape gave her an ideal pretext to end the friendship she didn't need anymore.

I've always thought that Snape was highly unpopular on the Hogwarts campus, with the exception of Lily and his wannabe death eater pals in Slytherin. Thus it would seem that Lily put up with a lot just to maintain their friendship. "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you," she told him when she ended it.

She stuck by him for five years which, in my opinion, was a lot longer than he deserved.

[sailorlum]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

If any of my friends was in the situation Snape was, I would hex James into a slimy slug in 5 seconds, instead of babbling with the bully. But of course. Lily know better. Luckily, Snape gave her an ideal pretext to end the friendship she didn't need anymore.

I think Lily was trying to convince James to call off the attack by shaming him about his bullying*, first, since he had Sirius backing him up and thus they outnumbered her and if she was taken down while Snape was incapacitated then he'd really be at their mercy and she could get hurt, too. If Lily could convince James (and Sirius) to knock it off with words, then that would be safer for both her and Snape. Perhaps if it was just James vs. Snape, then Lily may well have hexed James and been done with it, but if she took down James immediately, then it would leave an opening for Sirius to take her down, and Sirius could continue attacking Snape unopposed. I think Lily made the smart play (I'd have tried arguing and threatening and telling off, which I'd hardly call "babbling", first, before breaking out the weaponry/fists of fury, myself). And James and Sirius did stop attacking Snape while Lily was doing the arguing and threatening and telling off, and if Snape hadn't leveled an unnecessary counter attack**, then maybe it would have ended right then, and Lily would have walked off with Snape after she made it clear to James that she couldn't be bought with blackmail (his offer to never lay a wand on Snape again if she went out with him). And I don't blame Lily for wanting to set James straight on that, and she had time to do it since Snape was no longer under attack at that time. And I think Lily was clearly taking Snape's side (before he laid down the final straw with a racial slur and bit the helping hand with it, no less), since she didn't stop to criticize him for using a spell that drew blood on James (although I'd wager she'd want to talk about it being too dangerous, later). And when push came to shove and Sirius incapacitated Snape again (after James let Snape go a second time at Lily's demand), Lily did get out her wand as a last warning to them (I've no doubt she would have done her best to incapacitate both James and Sirius, if that warning didn't work), and James released Snape. And if Snape hadn't decided to lash out at her with a racial slur when he was mocked for needing her help, then I've no doubt that Lily would have left with Snape in the end and that would have been the end of that particular incident.

*(I don't think Lily was counting on lasting reform but I think she had hope that James could be shamed in the moment)

**I think the smart play for Snape would have been to take a defensive posture and prepare to use Protego while sidling/moving over to Lily's position, while James and Sirius were distracted by Lily, so that Snape could then stand together with Lily (instead of leaving James and Sirius between them, which would leave Snape and Lily vulnerable to friendly fire/crossfire, which may be another reason Lily didn't just start out with a hex, lest she miss or James dodge or deflect and it hit Snape or an innocent bystander).

Furthermore, if Lily had wanted to end the friendship with Snape earlier, then she would have had plenty of excuse for doing so, for her own safety (seeing as Snape was hanging around with DE wannabees, and the DEs were a violent pure-blood supremacist terrorist group, and Lily was a Muggle-born, no less) and as far as her friends and a great deal of the school were apparently concerned, since Snape appeared to be unpopular outside of the DE wannabe crowd and none of Lily's other friends understood why she even talked to him. I think that if Lily cared about public opinion, and/or was more careful about her safety, she'd have ditched Snape long ago. Lily was apparently willing to put up with a lot to remain friends with Snape, IMO, which indicates to me that she definitely valued their friendship. It was only when Snape attacked her directly that she was forced to admit how far gone Snape was and that she was no longer safe with him, and had to break it off, IMO.

Seriously, I don't see any indication in the text that Lily ended her friendship with Snape over a pretext, especially since no pretext was needed.

Also, I don't think Lily saw herself as ever needing Snape, but rather viewed it as a want. Lily didn't seem so codependent, IMO, seeing as she seemed to have a healthy amount of self esteem, as evidenced by her being willing to go against her sister and talk with Snape and later make friends with him, and as evidenced by her being willing to stand up to Snape when she thought he was wrong and to James and Sirius when she thought they were wrong.

In other words, if Lily had never liked Snape, I don't think she'd have made friends with him for any reason. And if she'd simply stopped liking Snape, and she wanted to drop him, she wouldn't need a pretext for dropping him, she could just drop him.

And is it really so hard to imagine that a Muggle-born, and Lily specifically, would find being called Mudblood to be a genuine final straw friendship deal breaker?

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

And I'm sorry, I will insist, calling a mother "ideal" because she died is something the bother me deeply, even if she died protecting her child. Heroical, yes, ideal, no.

Do you have a problem with it, even if "ideal" is merely being defined by the person using it as "admirable, respectable, and looked up to personally by the person calling them ideal" (as opposed to "ideal" meaning "flawless")?

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

If any of my friends was in the situation Snape was, I would hex James into a slimy slug in 5 seconds, instead of babbling with the bully. But of course. Lily know better.

And if one of my friends was hanging around with budding terrorists, and refusing to listen to my concerns about their criminality, I would drop them like a hot potato. Lily chose to persist in trying to get Snape to listen to reason, even though Snape saw no problem in the evil of the DEs.

Luckily, Snape gave her an ideal pretext to end the friendship she didn't need anymore.

Racist abuse is hardly a pretext. It's completely unacceptable, and was a betrayal of their friendship.

And I'm sorry, I will insist, calling a mother "ideal" because she died is something the bother me deeply, even if she died protecting her child. Heroical, yes, ideal, no.

Considering the horrific situation Lily was placed in by criminal elements, she made the right choice, the loving choice. She chose to protect her child above all else. She was not referred to as ideal because she died, but because she made the right choice in a terrible situation. Ideally, Lily and her family would never have been in that situation in the first place.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I've always thought that Snape was highly unpopular on the Hogwarts campus, with the exception of Lily and his wannabe death eater pals in Slytherin. Thus it would seem that Lily put up with a lot just to maintain their friendship. "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you," she told him when she ended it.

She stuck by him for five years which, in my opinion, was a lot longer than he deserved.

I agree. Lily stood by someone who didn't respect her, who was going down a dark and criminal path. She tried to make him see the problems with what he was doing and the thugs he was befriending. She put up with this disrespect until he went too far and she saw that she was hitting her head against a brick wall in trying to persuade him that the DE ideas and crimes were wicked. Lily walked away from a toxic friendship, when she realised that no friendship, no relationship is worth being on the receiving end of racist abuse.

Originally Posted by sailorlum

I think Lily was trying to convince James to call off the attack by shaming him about his bullying*, first, since he had Sirius backing him up and thus they outnumbered her and if she was taken down while Snape was incapacitated then he'd really be at their mercy and she could get hurt, too. If Lily could convince James (and Sirius) to knock it off with words, then that would be safer for both her and Snape. Perhaps if it was just James vs. Snape, then Lily may well have hexed James and been done with it, but if she took down James immediately, then it would leave an opening for Sirius to take her down, and Sirius could continue attacking Snape unopposed. I think Lily made the smart play (I'd have tried arguing and threatening and telling off, which I'd hardly call "babbling", first, before breaking out the weaponry/fists of fury, myself). And James and Sirius did stop attacking Snape while Lily was doing the arguing and threatening and telling off, and if Snape hadn't leveled an unnecessary counter attack**, then maybe it would have ended right then, and Lily would have walked off with Snape after she made it clear to James that she couldn't be bought with blackmail (his offer to never lay a wand on Snape again if she went out with him).

I agree. Lily's tactic was working - they had stopped. Hexing James into next week wouldn't stop Sirius, as you say. And it does seem that they were going to stop - the remark about "You were lucky Evans was here to help you" suggests that they were about to stop. Lily's method was working -and did work, on that occasion. What's wrong with resolving a situation without violence?

Furthermore, if Lily had wanted to end the friendship with Snape earlier, then she would have had plenty of excuse for doing so, for her own safety (seeing as Snape was hanging around with DE wannabees, and the DEs were a violent pure-blood supremacist terrorist group, and Lily was a Muggle-born, no less) and as far as her friends and a great deal of the school were apparently concerned, since Snape appeared to be unpopular outside of the DE wannabe crowd and none of Lily's other friends understood why she even talked to him.

I agree. Lily's own safety and self-respect would have been reason enough to end a friendship with a DE wannabe long before SWM. Instead, she fooled herself that she could persuade Snape to listen to reason. She thought she could convince him that a murderous hate group was not a good idea.

Seriously, I don't see any indication in the text that Lily ended her friendship with Snape over a pretext, especially since no pretext was needed.

Agree. I cannot understand how racist abuse can be a pretext.

And is it really so hard to imagine that a Muggle-born, and Lily specifically, would find being called Mudblood to be a genuine final straw friendship deal breaker?

I agree. Lily had self-respect and she did not want someone in her life who racially abused her. Lily walked away; she refused to stay and wait for the next time. IMO, She is an admirable role model for anyone in a toxic relationship.

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

And if one of my friends was hanging around with budding terrorists, and refusing to listen to my concerns about their criminality, I would drop them like a hot potato. Lily chose to persist in trying to get Snape to listen to reason, even though Snape saw no problem in the evil of the DEs.

I agree, she was absolutely right dropping someone she didn't like or respect anymore. But she didn't discover his unpleasant pals this precise day, right? And she didn't stop their friendship before. So, at the moment when James started torturing Snape, Lily and him technically still were "friends". That's why I think she didn't play that beutiful role flirting with "the biggest bully on the ground" instead of effectively helping her "friend" (and even making things worse). Yes, she walked away from a toxic realtionship, but she did it at the moment the other person had been severely bullied and publicly humiliated. You can have all the moral right in the world and still look quite bad...

And of course, we know Mulciber & Co. finally became Death Eaters, but at school, what real difference was between them and the Marauders? All of them were merrily hexing people they didn't like. Surely, that was Snape's point of view.

[Melaszka]

Can all of you cut back on the emotive language? (e.g. "tortured", "terrorists" etc)?

And a reminder that "Who started it/who was worse - Snape or the Marauders?" is (a) a banned topic in LS and (b) not relevant to this thread. No-one's actually gone there yet, but you're getting perilously close. Move away, guys.

[twinsrule26]

Originally Posted by Alastor

Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?

I feel that she was happy that she wasn't alone in being different from everyone else.

Originally Posted by Alastor

Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?

I feel that their wasn't any chance of patching things up between them after Petunia discovered tha she wasn't magical like Lily.

Originally Posted by Alastor

Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.

I think she had friends who were into opposing the rise of the Death Eaters and who bought into the Gryffindor Vs Slythern school rivalry .

Originally Posted by Alastor

According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?

To me is says that Lily was a careing open minded person who was willing to give people more than one chance.

Originally Posted by Alastor

Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?

I think she finally listened to her friends and dumped him . I wonder if she had started thinking about going out with James around that time ?