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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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We're not meant to see her as a character with real flaws or anything. |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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#63
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
AU = Alternate Universe
"What if?" scenarios create them. My sig describes an example of one. ![]() ETA: Quote:
And I see flaws in her in the text. The flaws I see are 1) woobieying/making excuses for Snape a bit (before he lays down the final straw), and 2) she can be a bit rash in her judgements sometimes (like when she assumes Snape must have dropped the tree on Petunia on purpose, probably because she has such good control of her powers, IMO), and 3) she can have a temper and not always take the high ground, like when she throws the letter Petunia wrote to Dumbledore asking to go to Hogwarts in her face (and she snooped in Petunia's room and sneaked a look at the letter with Snape), or when she calls Snape "Snivellus" and insults him about his underpants after he calls her Mudblood. Lily's a very good person, I think, but she's no saint and she's not perfect.
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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking. Last edited by sailorlum; April 28th, 2014 at 2:01 am. Reason: added ETA (response to ShadowSonic), added something to the last paragraph |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
Well, compared to the massive "Broken Pedestal" thing that happens to James Potter, Lily is still treated as a Saint by the narrative. Even in HBP all Slughorn has to say about her is Saintly stuff.
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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Lily is meant to be seen as the exact opposite of Voldemort. The one that Harry struggles to emulate but ends up more like James. And that's okay.
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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I agree that both Lily and James were put on a pedestal before OotP, and that James's pedestal got quite broken, but Lily did get some fleshing out of character that made her more than a Saint on a pedestal, even in OotP, and especially in DH, IMO. Also, Slughorn wasn't presenting her as a Saint, just as a student who was one of his absolute favorites (and he said she was cheeky, which he was clearly amused by, but not everyone likes cheek, and I wouldn't call it Saintly even though I like some good cheek myself, at times), and it's not like Slughorn is presented in the text as having perfect judgement on goodness (this is the guy who thought it was okay to tell Tom Riddle about Horcruxes, for heaven's sake, and he wanted all the Blacks in his Slug Club, even though most of them were pure-blood supremacists). And it's not like there are going to be a lot of people on the good side who are going to be eager to focus on the flaws of Harry's dead parents when speaking to Harry. The whole reason Harry's parents got put on a pedestal, in the first place, was because most of the characters were focusing on their best qualities around poor orphaned Harry, IMO. They weren't eager to talk of James's bullying days or of Lily's former friendship with Snape (which was well intentioned but ended badly, not that it didn't do any good, but it wasn't all down to Lily, since she can't control whether Snape would one day finally get his priorities straight and do a Heel Face Turn). Granted, I think it does say something that so many of the "team good" characters had plenty of good things to say about Lily, but I don't think that eliminates her humanity or reduces her to a mere archetype, after all is said and done. It's just testimony to her being a good person, IMO. Without seeing her in action in OotP and in DH, she may have remained on a pedestal, but I think those books gave her enough fleshing out to see that she was a regular person, like everyone else, albeit still a very good person. And once more, seeing as JKR said that none of her characters were without flaw, it seems that JKR did not intend for her readers to come away from the text at the end thinking any of them were a Saint on a pedestal. Quote:
Also, I don't see Lily's goodness as driving the whole narrative, although it does drive parts of it, but it's all connected and all the pieces matter, IMO. For instance, if Harry hadn't decided to fight Voldemort, things would have turned out very differently, and nothing Lily did guaranteed what kind of choice Harry would make, and she wasn't the only one responsible for him being alive. If Snape hadn't decided to continue to love Lily, things would have turned out very differently (Snape wouldn't have asked Voldemort to spare her, so she wouldn't have been given a choice, which is what allowed her sacrifice to work a powerful ancient magic). Furthermore, Lily didn't seem to be a close friend of Lupin's till after she started dating James, and I don't see how her friendship with him drove the narrative any more than the others' friendship with him did. Also, there were plenty of other people in the Order, including James, so I don't see how her membership in the Order drove the narrative any more than James's or another person's. And it's ultimately up to Snape what his reason for living is, Lily had no control over that. She inspired him, yes, but he had to make the choice to live for her. And Lily's flaws did drive part of the narrative (her narrative, at least), IMO. One might say that she trusted Snape for too long, which led to more heartache for her. And while Petunia was breaking away for reasons of jealousy, Lily reading that private letter to Dumbledore helped drive a wedge between her and her sister even more, IMO. And Petunia wasn't the only one to dislike Lily (Vernon didn't like her either, for one). And the true believer pure-blood supremacist crowd didn't like her, either. With the DEs in general, Lily was a Muggle-born and on the chop. Voldemort wanted to turn her and James because they were powerful, not because they were good. And although JKR said that Lily was popular, like Ginny, that doesn't make her a Saint on pedestal. Ginny wasn't a Saint on a pedestal, after all. We just don't get to see as much of Lily, but I think there's enough there to get that Lily is not meant to be a mere archetype and is meant to be a person. And it's not like there aren't very good people in real life, so why shouldn't there be very good people in fiction? Also, according to Dumbledore, and I agree, aside from looks, Harry was more like Lily, than James. (And Slughorn seemed to think Harry was more like Lily than James, too, not that he's as good a judge of character as Dumbledore.) I do think JKR was trying to tell us something in having those characters point out Harry's greater similarity to Lily, but it wasn't that either Harry or Lily were perfect or Saints on a pedestal, only that they were both good people. ETA: Although I'd say that Lily was justified in walking away from Snape after he said he didn't need her help while hurling a racial slur at her, I'd say that she wasn't justified in calling him Snivellus and insulting his underpants, seeing as two wrongs don't make a right (even though Snape's racial slur was even worse than Lily's personal insults to him). Definitely, not a Saintly move for Lily to pull, on that account, IMO. A Saint would turn the other cheek, there, IMO. A Saint would likely call Snape out on his wrongness, but wouldn't pile more wrongness on top of it, even if it's less wrongness, IMO.
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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking. Last edited by sailorlum; April 28th, 2014 at 10:40 pm. Reason: fixed a typo, added ETA |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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Ideal Mom? - because she died? Gosh, talk about a positive message concerning the motherhood. Ideal Friend? - Maybe, but certainly not to Snape. SWM clearly shows the flirtation with James was far more interesting for her than helping her supposed best friend. And I don't remember any other close friend of hers. Ideal Witch? - hm, she was good in Charms. And in Potions. Just a good student. But you are right, she is just not "real".
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
I think she was a better friend to Snape than he was to her. As a minority myself, I would have reacted just as Lily did had my "best friend" hurled the N-Word at me. The friendship would have ended the moment that word came out of his mouth. Full stop.
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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I don't think she was flirting - she was expressing disgust with James' behaviour and threatening to hex him. Quote:
I agree. I actually think Lily showed restraint in not hexing him in that scene. Considering Hermione physically attacked Ron with a spell after he kissed another girl, I can't imagine the harm Hermione would have inflicted on a friend who hung around DEs and then racially abused her.
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![]() Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632 "Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous "Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11. ![]() Last edited by FurryDice; April 30th, 2014 at 10:17 pm. |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
I agree with FurryDice here and would like to reiterate that all that good stuff about Lily that makes her very good and admirable and inspiring and whatnot, doesn't reduce her to a mere archetypal Ideal/Saint on a pedestal (it doesn't eliminate her humanity or make her unreal, since there are very good, talented, people out there in real life, at the very least I've met some), even though she may be a realistic ideal in a reader's opinion, IMO.
Also, yeah, I really don't see how Lily's reaction to James in SWM can be considered flirting. Even if one went with the theory that Lily had an actual crush on James (I think she saw some attractive qualities about him, but that she wasn't attracted to him, due to his deal breaking behavior and the fact that she didn't even like him enough to be friends), but I see "Lily had some kind of a crush on James" as a possible interp (although not a necessary interp), considering that they do wind up together and esp. if one is inclined to ship Lily/James as an OTP, but that still wouldn't make what happened in SWM be flirting, IMO. I can see where one who goes with that theory might see unresolved sexual tension (UST for short) between them, but UST does not mean that every interaction is flirting, especially when the interaction in question is one party expressing disgust with the other party and seriously threatening to hex them. It's not like Lily was being playful in her attitude, and using a teasing voice and a wink or something. She was seriously ticked off, IMO. It's like Hermione sending the birds after Ron in HBP (even though she was in love with Ron, that was clearly not flirting), IMO. (PS: There should have been a "much worse" after "even though Snape's racial slur was even worse than Lily's personal insults to him", because some anvils need to be dropped, I agree. Even though I think it should go without saying that my "even worse" includes "not on par"/"nowhere near on par", considering all I've said up to this point, but it doesn't hurt to drop that anvil again.) Quote:
And I'm not so sure the friendship was really officially totally dead to Lily until Lily came down to talk to Snape, and he revealed that all he wanted to apologize for was calling her a Mudblood. I think she may have had a glimmer of hope that he was going to turn around, when she first came down, because although she said she only came down because Mary said he was going to sleep there all night, she could have just let him sleep there all night and then just walk on by in the morning, so I think she might have hoped that his willingness to sleep there all night was a sign of remorse for more than just calling her Mudblood. Although the friendship being officially dead in her eyes immediately after the slur slinging is a definite possibility, I think. I think I would have seen the friendship as kaput, at that point, but I think I would have lost patience with Snape even sooner, so IDK, IDK.
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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking. |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
I'm thrilled that this discussion has been so peaceful and constructive for so long!
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
Oops, perhaps I should have moved the AU/what if discussion over to the General 'What if...?' thread, which I just noticed today after poking around to see if there was an "AU/what if" thread that I'd totally forgotten about. Whoops! Sorry bout that! *^.^* I'll bookmark it so I remember, should the situation come up again.
Yay for peaceful and constructive discussion in the Lily thread, though! ![]()
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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking. |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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And I'm sorry, I will insist, calling a mother "ideal" because she died is something the bother me deeply, even if she died protecting her child. Heroical, yes, ideal, no.
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![]() Severus Snape: More Enigma Than Riddle There is nothing wrong in being ambitious.
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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She stuck by him for five years which, in my opinion, was a lot longer than he deserved.
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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*(I don't think Lily was counting on lasting reform but I think she had hope that James could be shamed in the moment) **I think the smart play for Snape would have been to take a defensive posture and prepare to use Protego while sidling/moving over to Lily's position, while James and Sirius were distracted by Lily, so that Snape could then stand together with Lily (instead of leaving James and Sirius between them, which would leave Snape and Lily vulnerable to friendly fire/crossfire, which may be another reason Lily didn't just start out with a hex, lest she miss or James dodge or deflect and it hit Snape or an innocent bystander). Furthermore, if Lily had wanted to end the friendship with Snape earlier, then she would have had plenty of excuse for doing so, for her own safety (seeing as Snape was hanging around with DE wannabees, and the DEs were a violent pure-blood supremacist terrorist group, and Lily was a Muggle-born, no less) and as far as her friends and a great deal of the school were apparently concerned, since Snape appeared to be unpopular outside of the DE wannabe crowd and none of Lily's other friends understood why she even talked to him. I think that if Lily cared about public opinion, and/or was more careful about her safety, she'd have ditched Snape long ago. Lily was apparently willing to put up with a lot to remain friends with Snape, IMO, which indicates to me that she definitely valued their friendship. It was only when Snape attacked her directly that she was forced to admit how far gone Snape was and that she was no longer safe with him, and had to break it off, IMO. Seriously, I don't see any indication in the text that Lily ended her friendship with Snape over a pretext, especially since no pretext was needed. Also, I don't think Lily saw herself as ever needing Snape, but rather viewed it as a want. Lily didn't seem so codependent, IMO, seeing as she seemed to have a healthy amount of self esteem, as evidenced by her being willing to go against her sister and talk with Snape and later make friends with him, and as evidenced by her being willing to stand up to Snape when she thought he was wrong and to James and Sirius when she thought they were wrong. In other words, if Lily had never liked Snape, I don't think she'd have made friends with him for any reason. And if she'd simply stopped liking Snape, and she wanted to drop him, she wouldn't need a pretext for dropping him, she could just drop him. And is it really so hard to imagine that a Muggle-born, and Lily specifically, would find being called Mudblood to be a genuine final straw friendship deal breaker? Do you have a problem with it, even if "ideal" is merely being defined by the person using it as "admirable, respectable, and looked up to personally by the person calling them ideal" (as opposed to "ideal" meaning "flawless")?
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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking. |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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![]() Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632 "Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous "Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11. ![]() Last edited by FurryDice; May 5th, 2014 at 5:06 pm. |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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And of course, we know Mulciber & Co. finally became Death Eaters, but at school, what real difference was between them and the Marauders? All of them were merrily hexing people they didn't like. Surely, that was Snape's point of view.
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![]() Severus Snape: More Enigma Than Riddle There is nothing wrong in being ambitious.
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
Can all of you cut back on the emotive language? (e.g. "tortured", "terrorists" etc)?
And a reminder that "Who started it/who was worse - Snape or the Marauders?" is (a) a banned topic in LS and (b) not relevant to this thread. No-one's actually gone there yet, but you're getting perilously close. Move away, guys. Last edited by Melaszka; May 5th, 2014 at 11:41 pm. |
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3
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I think she finally listened to her friends and dumped him . I wonder if she had started thinking about going out with James around that time ?
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