Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

My 'Napoleon Theory'



 
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old May 15th, 2007, 12:08 am
YellowPoofBall's Avatar
YellowPoofBall  Undisclosed.gif YellowPoofBall is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4179 days
Posts: 905
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

I understand people saying that Arthur is not the leader-type, because I sort of felt that way too. But then I read GoF again, and the way he jumps into action during the World Cup when the DEs have got the Muggle family all up in the air showed me that he is not just another weirdo and does have the capacity to lead successfully.


__________________
Boioioioioioinggggg
Sponsored Links
  #62  
Old May 15th, 2007, 1:32 am
PunkRockGirli's Avatar
PunkRockGirli  Female.gif PunkRockGirli is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4858 days
Location: ...in the quiet of shadow
Age: 28
Posts: 602
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbProfNeville View Post
I think you have it backwards - Arthur is the most like Dumbledore of any Order member remaining. Dumbledore who believed all creatures and species - magical and muggle - could live as equals (or so seemed his beliefs to me). Other wizards have a distinctly superior attitude over their muggle counterparts, which puts them at odds with Dumbledore's teachings. Many others look down on House Elves, Goblins or Centaurs - species for which Dumbledore held mutual respect and admiration. That Arthur Weasley can see Muggles as people worth learning about and knowing is very telling - he wouldn't just be saving the wizarding world, but we Muggles as well. The collective conscious of the Order is that Voldemort has to be stopped - and the way to stop him is through Love and unity, working together despite diferences. Who better to pick up Dumbledore's banner than the biggest blood traitor in the books - a pure-blood with no House Elves who shows no regard to difference in species of magical ability?

And who better? The werewolf, the half-giant, the criminal, the crazy ex-auror? Perhaps Kingsley or Tonks - who would possibly lose their jobs if word got out of their association with The Order. Arthur is a likely choice from where I stand - a patient but firm patriarch (much like Albus). He's got the brave Gryffindor herritage, and the vested interest of his family and their membership in the Order to consider (heck, he's practically the leader already just by virtue of fathering half the members!) And other than Hagrid and possibly Lupin, he's the one Harry can look to for help (but not too much since he's got to face this alone). Despite being a little odd at times, when crunch time comes we've seen him come through. And we've seen him handle at least one situation better than Albus! He was able to tell Harry something he needed to know (the Sirius info in PoA) when all around him thought ignorance was better. It took Dumbledore a few years to be able to get past that belief and tell Harry the information he was holding back with (about the prophecy and everything else), something he admitted was a huge mistake.

Understand, please, that this theory doesen't necessarilly propose Arthur defeats Voldemort. It just means he may lead the forces that defeat him. The difference is subtle, but important if it's to be believed. And the aftermath might suggest a future for Arthur as a Minister of Magic in years to come.

I understand where you are coming from. I have one good question for you. What leadership skills does Arthur have that other members of the Order do not? I believe that while he might try to be a good role model for Harry and the gang he is really just a nice guy. I mean I dont have anything against Arthur- I just do not believe that he is the best person for the job of leading the Order against Voldemort. I think that his sons would even bear this task in a more responsible way. I say this beceause Arthur is reckless and is willing to risk his neck for causes that he carres about. I do not see his character fullfulling any greater role than a father, a husband, and a comic releaf when we need it.


__________________
morgan rachelle
  #63  
Old May 15th, 2007, 2:14 am
HerbProfNeville's Avatar
HerbProfNeville  Male.gif HerbProfNeville is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4190 days
Location: Mortal Peril
Age: 40
Posts: 402
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunkRockGirli View Post
I understand where you are coming from. I have one good question for you. What leadership skills does Arthur have that other members of the Order do not? I believe that while he might try to be a good role model for Harry and the gang he is really just a nice guy. I mean I dont have anything against Arthur- I just do not believe that he is the best person for the job of leading the Order against Voldemort. I think that his sons would even bear this task in a more responsible way. I say this beceause Arthur is reckless and is willing to risk his neck for causes that he carres about. I do not see his character fullfulling any greater role than a father, a husband, and a comic releaf when we need it.
Well, he shows his leadership ability as a parent - keeping the twins and other kids in check without having to resort to Molly's method of exploding on them. He maintains his cool with them instead. Ron says the only time he flipped out was over the twins trying to trick him into making an unbreakable vow. And the only other time we've seen him slip up is in COS when he decked Lucius Malfoy.

He takes the lead in a few situations when Albus is absent. He takes Harry to his hearing (albeit on the way to work for him). He and Molly host holiday meals at the Burrow for the Order members where he doles out advise. He rushes into the fray during the aftermath of the World Cup somewhat taking charge of several situations going on there (thanks YellowPoofBall). He's got quite a stake in the Order with 6 of his 9 family members now involved properly, and Ron and Ginny tangentially (not to mention like-a-son and multi-family-member savior Harry) . There's a lot to suggest he's a very much like Dumbledore - the goofyness aside, he's continually away working; not caught up in the wizardry but fascinated by the non-magical world; he has the respect of most respectable wizards; he's get patience and rationality, though perhaps in lesser degrees than did Dumbledore - the list goes on. Besides all that, he's uniquely positioned among Order members with Ministry connections and, except for the reputation as a blood-traitor and an old inquiry about a flying car, an unblemished public image.

Bottom line is, he comes through when he's needed. And I think he is needed to lead the Order. No other member has the leadership qualities you're looking for either (except perhaps Snape, but I'm not getting into that here). If you're thinking of others, I'd like to hear why. The fact that Arthur has demonstrated what I'd call sufficient leadership ability, coupled with those other aspects that position him so readilly to be effective are what seal it for me.

Something else occurred to me today - this could set him up to maybe take revenge on Nagini for the attack in the ministry during OotP. That would certainly be a significant blow against Voldemort.


  #64  
Old May 19th, 2007, 3:37 am
Daelin  Male.gif Daelin is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 4761 days
Location: Where God Goes for a Laugh
Age: 58
Posts: 1,117
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

This talk about Napoleon got me to thinking about Villeneuve, the hapless admiral who was badgered by Napoleon into taking on Nelson at Trafalgar, and it occurred to me that Lucius Malfoy is not too far from Villeneuve in behavior and judgment.

And it also occurs to me that Lucius Malfoy was always wary of Arthur Weasley, as if he sensed deeper qualities to Arthur than most people noticed.

And finally, I had this mental image of Harry facing down Voldemort, Morty making a comment along the lines of 'you and what army?' and Arthur showing up with a group to deal with the last of the Death Eaters, werewolves, and whatnot of evil.

Yes, I rather like this theory. Harry is the hero, but Arthur as a general seems a very good fit.

Well done, good job on this idea.


__________________
Severus prepared Harry for war.

And drill sergeants do not hug.
  #65  
Old May 19th, 2007, 11:36 am
spurs_dan21  Undisclosed.gif spurs_dan21 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4174 days
Posts: 10
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

excellent point about villeneuve i like it, i was writing a book myself (spare time thing really) and it really is the best way to develop a plot; take historical ideas and just fiddle with them a lot until you get a new story, the only things that remain are the parallels.


  #66  
Old May 20th, 2007, 12:45 am
Snape_Redemptor  Undisclosed.gif Snape_Redemptor is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4306 days
Location: In Memory
Posts: 198
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

This is terrific thinking. I think it does hang together very well for Arthur leading the Order in its ultimately victorious campaign against Voldemort. And here I was, thinking we'd mined the books until there was no literative parallel to find. Ha! That'll teach me.


__________________
Dark and difficult times lay ahead. Soon we must all make the choice between what is right and what is easy.
--Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore
  #67  
Old May 20th, 2007, 1:06 am
LikeLuna's Avatar
LikeLuna  Female.gif LikeLuna is offline
Winning Teamster
 
Joined: 4545 days
Location: Online, probably.
Age: 26
Posts: 711
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

This is really interesting. I don't think that Arthur will be THE ONE to conquer Voldemort, but this does indicate that he is likely to play an important role. Perhaps he will become the new "leader" of the Order.


__________________

They're changing guard at Buckingham Palace -
Christopher Robin went down with Alice.
We looked for the King but he never came.
"Well, God take care of him, all the same,"
Says Alice.

  #68  
Old May 20th, 2007, 3:09 am
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 5047 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs_dan21 View Post
the famous Duke of Wellington, the defeater of Napoleon, was infact named Arthur Wesley.

Now to draw parallels between Napoleon and Voldemort is not overly difficult (a shame because i do like Napoleon). They both have French names, Napoleon being his 'French' name, changed from his original Corsican. We know Voldemort to be a 'half-blood' with a muggle father. Napoleon too wasnt entirely French, being born in Corsica, infact i am even told by a friend he was referred to as 'half-blood' at times in his youth.

Both Napoleon and Voldemort fell from power, only to rise again did they not? Napoleon escaped the inescapable exile on Elba, and seized power almost immediately, while Voldemort escaped the inescapable death, rising swiftly to become as feared as before.

But mainly Wellington's name interests me. Arthur Wesley is almost too similar to Arthur Weasley for Jo to have put it there, here hints and clues always being so cryptic in the past, one only needs to know a little of Waterloo to perhaps 'crack this nut'. I dont know if i predict Arthur Weasley will defeat Voldemort in the end, but i will certainly watch this space.
It is an interesting set of parallels you have pointed out. The comparison between Napolean and Vodemort is pretty straightforward. Arthur Wesley being the name of the Duke of Wellington is very interesting. Arthur is also the name of the King, whether real or fictional, has been debated. The Weasley name, though, could be a play on the word, weasle, which Percy might be considered to be.

None the less, I like the idea of Arthur taking a leadership role in DH. I like the idea of him heading the Order of the Phoenix. He owes Harry a lot for saving his life, Ginny's life, and Ron's life. I don't think he will defeat Voldemort directly, but I would love it if he played a key role. There is a big hole now that Dumbledore is gone.


__________________


avatar artwork by Ruth Sanderson
  #69  
Old May 28th, 2007, 3:34 am
Rowena  Undisclosed.gif Rowena is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4456 days
Posts: 92
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

you are very observant.


__________________
It's the one thing that I've known
Once I put my coat on
I'm coming out in this all wrong
She's standing outside holding me
Saying oh please
I'm in love
I'm in love
  #70  
Old May 29th, 2007, 1:17 am
PunkRockGirli's Avatar
PunkRockGirli  Female.gif PunkRockGirli is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4858 days
Location: ...in the quiet of shadow
Age: 28
Posts: 602
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
It is an interesting set of parallels you have pointed out. The comparison between Napolean and Vodemort is pretty straightforward. Arthur Wesley being the name of the Duke of Wellington is very interesting. Arthur is also the name of the King, whether real or fictional, has been debated. The Weasley name, though, could be a play on the word, weasle, which Percy might be considered to be.

None the less, I like the idea of Arthur taking a leadership role in DH. I like the idea of him heading the Order of the Phoenix. He owes Harry a lot for saving his life, Ginny's life, and Ron's life. I don't think he will defeat Voldemort directly, but I would love it if he played a key role. There is a big hole now that Dumbledore is gone.
Most historians agree that King Arthur of legend is fictional, however a person who was ultimatly just awesome may have existed. I think that it is a bit of a stretch to connect Arthur Weasley to this role because his name isn't who his character is. I think it would be interesting for him to be more important, however I also believe that he is realy jusut the friendly parent. I never thought that he was a strong leader- Molly is more of that than he is.
Also I think that the Dumbledore mentor figure had to leave so Harry could take over his journey and complete the task, therefore there will be no other mentor achetype as there is no need to fill that role- it was already fullfilled.


__________________
morgan rachelle
  #71  
Old May 29th, 2007, 2:28 am
HerbProfNeville's Avatar
HerbProfNeville  Male.gif HerbProfNeville is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4190 days
Location: Mortal Peril
Age: 40
Posts: 402
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunkRockGirli View Post
Most historians agree that King Arthur of legend is fictional, however a person who was ultimatly just awesome may have existed. I think that it is a bit of a stretch to connect Arthur Weasley to this role because his name isn't who his character is. I think it would be interesting for him to be more important, however I also believe that he is realy jusut the friendly parent. I never thought that he was a strong leader- Molly is more of that than he is.
Also I think that the Dumbledore mentor figure had to leave so Harry could take over his journey and complete the task, therefore there will be no other mentor achetype as there is no need to fill that role- it was already fullfilled.
Molly doesn't lead - she yells and get angry until she get her way. Wether it's yelling at the twins or Ron for causing problems, or losing her temper with Fleur or Dung she lacks something of the benevolent, patient, organized leadership that the Order requires. Mr. Weasley has always been the kind, gentle and patient leader of his family - even in the role of disciplinarian. He's lost his temper twice thus far - once with the twins over an unbreakable vow they almost made Ron make, and once when he decked Lucius Malfoy in Flourish and Blotts. He doesn't have to mentor Harry and no one's expecting him to replace Dumbledore. But the Order will need a focused and capable leader and Arthur looks like he could be just that.


  #72  
Old May 29th, 2007, 5:22 am
PunkRockGirli's Avatar
PunkRockGirli  Female.gif PunkRockGirli is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4858 days
Location: ...in the quiet of shadow
Age: 28
Posts: 602
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbProfNeville View Post
Molly doesn't lead - she yells and get angry until she get her way. Wether it's yelling at the twins or Ron for causing problems, or losing her temper with Fleur or Dung she lacks something of the benevolent, patient, organized leadership that the Order requires. Mr. Weasley has always been the kind, gentle and patient leader of his family - even in the role of disciplinarian. He's lost his temper twice thus far - once with the twins over an unbreakable vow they almost made Ron make, and once when he decked Lucius Malfoy in Flourish and Blotts. He doesn't have to mentor Harry and no one's expecting him to replace Dumbledore. But the Order will need a focused and capable leader and Arthur looks like he could be just that.

Arthur also lacks the ability to pick something and stick with it. He is a coward in many regards as we have seen with him and his wife, and the way that he handles the family dispute with the Malfoys. He allows himself to be walked all over (especially at the ministry) and in that he lacks the assertive side of leadership that the order also needs.


__________________
morgan rachelle
  #73  
Old May 29th, 2007, 8:09 am
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 4946 days
Location: Er... in front of a computer?
Posts: 3,755
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunkRockGirli View Post
Arthur also lacks the ability to pick something and stick with it. He is a coward in many regards as we have seen with him and his wife, and the way that he handles the family dispute with the Malfoys. He allows himself to be walked all over (especially at the ministry) and in that he lacks the assertive side of leadership that the order also needs.
That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Arthur doesn't let himself be walked all over, otherwise Lucius's bill to allow Muggle hunting would have gone through and Arthur never would have blocked it. Nor would Arthur have raided Lucius's house when he heard about the cellar and it's cache of dark artifacts. (Nor, come to think of it, would he have openly attacked Lucius in public for insulting his family if he were cowardly and allowed Lucius to walk all over him.)

Can you provide any canon of him failing to stick to something he's begun or of him behaving in a cowardly manner?

He had been treated poorly at the Ministry due to discrimination, because he was a blood traitor. However, when Fudge (who was basically a tool for Lucius) was replaced, Arthur was promoted and is now being treated far more fairly in accordance with his actual abilities.

I also see no problem with him asserting his authority when he needs to. Molly always defers to him when he knows it's important, and he is respected by the other Order members. He simply is rather like Dumbledore, and doesn't order when he can instead rely on others to use their own good sense, and will simply provide advice at these times. This is exactly how he dealt with Harry- advising instead of ordering- again similar to Dumbledore's method.

I see his methods to be very similar to Dumbledore's, and see him as a likely possible leader for the Order in DH.



Last edited by Hinoema; May 29th, 2007 at 8:12 am.
  #74  
Old May 30th, 2007, 1:36 am
YellowPoofBall's Avatar
YellowPoofBall  Undisclosed.gif YellowPoofBall is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4179 days
Posts: 905
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

That seems a bit harsh to me too. Arthur being yelled at by Molly seems to me to be more comic relief than anything. Now that I've gotten over my initial assessment of Arthur as goofy, I can see that he is much more often serious. I think many people are misled, as I was, by the scenes in which Arthur was portrayed as unknowledgeable, always in regard to Muggle ways. In terms of magic and wizardry, Arthur is by no means bumbling.


__________________
Boioioioioioinggggg
  #75  
Old May 30th, 2007, 11:30 pm
potatoesrock  Female.gif potatoesrock is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4373 days
Location: In your basement!
Age: 26
Posts: 147
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

I like the parallel you've made between Arthur Weasley and Arthur Wesley, but I don't think that he'll defeat Voldemort. The prophecy said that 'Neither can live while the other survives', which means that either Harry or Voldemort will have to kill each other in the end.

I do think that Arthur will prove himself useful though! Interesting discovery...


__________________
R.I.P. ROBERT JORDAN



Lord of the Rings fan with a weird sense of humor? Read my fanfic!
  #76  
Old May 31st, 2007, 12:51 am
HerbProfNeville's Avatar
HerbProfNeville  Male.gif HerbProfNeville is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4190 days
Location: Mortal Peril
Age: 40
Posts: 402
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

Quote:
Originally Posted by potatoesrock View Post
I like the parallel you've made between Arthur Weasley and Arthur Wesley, but I don't think that he'll defeat Voldemort. The prophecy said that 'Neither can live while the other survives', which means that either Harry or Voldemort will have to kill each other in the end.

I do think that Arthur will prove himself useful though! Interesting discovery...
Actually the parts of the prophecy that identify Harry as the one who will likely defeat Voldemort are "the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord approaches"..."He will mark him as his equal"..."The one who has the power to defeat the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies" and other bits like that. "Neither can live...", just means one has to die but doesn't really specify who will do the defeating. Either way, I agree - Harry will do the defeating of Voldemort - or vise versa. But the two forces that will meet in this endgame battle will be Voldemort's Death Eaters and The Order of the Pheonix. Harry is in league with the Order, but not what one might consider the General of it were it an army. He's been identified as a weapon, but not a commanding officer. It amounts to the same as the Wellington vs. Napoleon battle at Waterloo - Wellington didn't deliver a finishing blow to Voldemort personally - but the allied forces he lead did defeat the forces of Napoleon.


  #77  
Old June 4th, 2007, 6:07 am
lilyseyes  Female.gif lilyseyes is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4193 days
Location: Land of boots & hats
Age: 46
Posts: 108
Re: My 'Napoleon Theory'

This really is an amazing thread..honestly. I do hope and can see Arthur becoming head of the Order. And No I dont see him actually dealing Voldemort a deathblow, but he would be useful as the Order with all his contacts at the MoM. (maybe even including Percy).


__________________
Heros come in ALL sizes.
Love From, Lilyseyes
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:47 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright its respective owners.