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SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 23rd, 2007, 6:47 pm
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SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

We all now, of course, that Hermione founded this society in Book 4. Hermione has'nt succeeded yet to make a big change.BUT--the question is...DO house-elves really want to be freed? Do they wish to be independent? Will they be slaves forever?

WILL HERMIONE MAKE A STAND IN THE MINISTRY OF MAGIC?


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  #2  
Old January 23rd, 2007, 7:10 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

House elves are the way they are because they do not know how to be any other way.

It reminds me of the movie, Shawshank Redemption. In the movie they discuss being "Institutionalized". For one to be placed in an institution does not mean you are institutionalized. To be institutionalized the way of life for that institution (Whatever that may be) must become part of you. Brooks Hadlen was in Shawshank prison for over 50 years. He had mose or less forgotten what it was like to be free. His routine was set for decades, and he knew no other way of life.

Once he was parolled, he could not adapt to life outside. He actually wanted to go commit a crime just so they would send him back. It was not that he was a bad person, on the contrary, he was a decent man.

The house elves have been living the life of servants and slaves for (presumably) centuries or more. They are born, raised, live, and eventually die within it, with little exception. They fiercely protect their families even if the magical bonds do not compell them to do so. They generally take on the identity of their families. Case in point: Kreacher. He has the same general philosophies about the world as most of the Blacks. He even resents Sirius's rebellion from the family norm.

This all being said, no, I don't think that House elves (as a whole) will ever willingly wish for freedom, nor will they ever come to appreciate Hermione's ideals. Even Dobby does not seem to approve of Hermione's group. He knows what the general house elf thought line is.

That is, unless there is a blanket emancipation of all house elves. Again, on this point I refer to history.

In the middle of the American Civil War, President Lincoln emancipated all slaves. Though many were elated to be free, many nust did not know how to adjust to freedom. It took a few generations for them to have slavery evicted from their mindsets. Here we are about 140+ years later, and there are still prejudices, certain levels of unequality, and a select few people who would like to see those dark days return. Progress has been slow, but it has not stagnated.

If emancipation occurs, then yes, Hermione's group, S.P.E.W. will be a valuable organization.


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Old January 23rd, 2007, 8:06 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilmer_harry02 View Post
.BUT--the question is...DO house-elves really want to be freed? Do they wish to be independent? Will they be slaves forever?
These questions have been addressed in very different ways in the following threads:

Enslavement & Discrimination in the Wizarding World: Thoughts and Critiques a general approach to the evident problems in wizarding society

Would you join SPEW? a thread discussing personal opinions

Hermione, the house elves, and JK's History influence. approaches the topic by looking at real history and politics

Hope this helped.


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Old January 23rd, 2007, 8:46 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

It is morally wrong of Hermione to try and enforce one species moral beliefs unto another species. Just because from Hermione (humans) point of view that house elves are enslaved, doesn't mean they view it the same way. 99% of the wizarding world seems to recognize and understand this. Hermione is just trying to force her moral view on others.

So no I hope she doesn't succeed on her ideal's of spew. Evil and tyranny usually always start off cloaked or disguised as good intentions. As the old saying goes, "God save us from those with good intentions."


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Old January 23rd, 2007, 9:19 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

I don't think Hermione will ever succeed with S.P.E.W. THe house-elves will never agree with her and demand freedom and she can't convince her fellow wizards to agree with her. Besides, is forcing freedom on them any better than forcing slavery? Look at the War in Iraq. At least from media portrayal, it doesn't seem that the Iraqis really appreciate the U.S. forcing democracy upon them. Even the Americans don't appreciate it. While Hermione isn't Bush, and I would never compare her to him (nu-CLE-ar), her cause will not work just like Bush's doesn't.


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Old January 23rd, 2007, 11:50 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

I don't think they will ever want to be freed (except for Dobby, of course.) It seems that the majority of them find it disgraceful to even just hear Dobby talk of being paid and freedom.


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Old January 23rd, 2007, 11:54 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

That is only because they do not know any better. The wrong has become the norm.


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Old January 24th, 2007, 12:58 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

It's not so much that her ideal's are wrong--- it's just that---- well it's part of who they are---- even the house-elves at Hogwarts have to no desire for freedom... Case in point--- Dobby ended up being the only one who would dare set foot in Gryffindore--- because the other house-elves were mortified at the idea of being set free... to the point of insult. Also, look at poor winky--- she looked/looks at like her life is over. For them it's like being thrown out of their family. I would have to say that I doubt that most house-elves are treated as poorly as Dobby. I mean--- really.... they don't really seem to want freedom--- she should leave them alone.


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Old January 24th, 2007, 1:59 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

visitorspass,

Please see a post I set above...it will explain further what I was talking about. I do not think Hermione is off the mark.


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Old January 24th, 2007, 2:12 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

I don't think SPEW will ever be fully realized, because I think (in the main) that the House Elves like their position in life. I think she may segue into other similar campaigns, involving creatures that actually want more rights and freedoms, and she might be successful in that endeavor.


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Old January 24th, 2007, 2:35 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

I don't think the house-elves will every become fully free for all the reason that have been said. They are used to that way of life and to be free from the family is looked on more like being disowned than actual freedom. Maybe there should be more laws to protect house-elves like Dobby, maybe she could become that Creature/Goblin Liasion Officer person, that would be going beyond her S.P.E.W and she could enforce protective laws for creatures such as house-elves. But house-elves will never want to be totally free.


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Old January 24th, 2007, 2:42 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

I think she'll try but she will be more focused on other things in Book 7. (I mean, DH... I'm still not used to this! ) SPEW will fall behind the Horcrux hunt which is obviously a higher priority. After that she may try to revive SPEW, she's quite stubborn, but I think she'll eventually realise the elves don't want to be freed... maybe then she'll only try to free the ones that want to be freed


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Old January 24th, 2007, 7:49 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
That is only because they do not know any better. The wrong has become the norm.

it is only "wrong" when you use a modern world humans moral filter to decide what is right and wrong.

As an example, lets stick with the same species, Humans. Lets say an expedition sets out to explore an unknown part of say Africa. While exploring they find a tribe of people who are living the same way they have for hundreds of years. There is no currency. They don't get vacation days or time off. Each person has an assigned job, Hunters, Gathers, cooks, weavers, etc. All this is done to ensure the royal family who they view as holy, doesn't have to lift a finger and lives in comfort. Everyone does their assigned jobs without pay or complaint and everyone is happy and content with their lot in life.

Now comes the "advanced" humans. They instantly try and "help" their savage and uneducated brothers. And try and force their view of how society should work. Telling them they should not do anything for free, they must get paid, and get vacation days etc. They don't have to "serve" or be slaves to their King and his family.

Now, would you consider them morally right to enforce their view of how society should work unto another society? Just because they think their way of life is better and how all Humans should live? Every society of humans on earth has a different outlook on how life should be lived. None is more valid then the other, as long as those living that way are content and happy with the system they made and are living under.

Forcing your moral beliefs and way of life unto others, is no different then a tyrant taking over a country and forcing the people to live how He/She thinks they should be living.

Now take into account that house elves are NOT human. So not only are their moral values different then Humans. But the way the view the world, life, and their purpose in living would be totally different then another species(Humans) view. So why would you try and force a modern Humans moral and social values unto another species?

For all Hermione knows the current system the elves live by could have been set up and agreed apon by the elves of old because that is what they wanted. It is obviously how they still want to live. She has just unilaterally decided that according to how she views things, the house elves are wrong and are being exploited. And even against the house elves wishes, she is still trying to force her view of how they should live on them. To the point she trys to trick and deceive them into doing as she wants.

And you think she is right (or has the right) to do this? Her actions are no different then any tyrant trying to force their view of how things should work unto others who don't agree with her. So short of pulling a LV and trying to physicall force the house elves to live how she thinks they should, Spew is bound to fail. For the simple reason, the house elves are happy and content with how they live and don't want to change.



Last edited by Nickoli; January 24th, 2007 at 8:02 pm.
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Old January 24th, 2007, 8:08 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

She has also only ever seen house elves from not so good wizarding families. Perhaps she will establish a house elf rescue program for house elfs who are unhappy with their current wizarding family, or a house elf placement program. I could go on for a while.


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Old January 24th, 2007, 8:17 pm
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannah View Post
She has also only ever seen house elves from not so good wizarding families. Perhaps she will establish a house elf rescue program for house elfs who are unhappy with their current wizarding family, or a house elf placement program. I could go on for a while.
She has seen all the elves who work at Hogwarts. And would you really want someone who try's to trick and deceive others into accepting how she thinks they should live, when they don't agree with her, in a position of power to decide the fate of others? On that fact alone, I would never vote for or support anyone who resorts to such tactics, into a postion of authority over others. Justice is blind and death for a reason. Hermione doesn't follow logic or the law, she is deciding things from emotion and her own moral filter. I would never want anyone who ignores the law and decides things based on how they think things should be, regardless of others opions of views, in a position of authority. It is bad enough when someone like that takes control(lv) without giving them the power to do it.



Last edited by Nickoli; January 24th, 2007 at 8:23 pm.
  #16  
Old January 25th, 2007, 4:59 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickoli View Post
it is only "wrong" when you use a modern world humans moral filter to decide what is right and wrong.

As an example, lets stick with the same species, Humans. Lets say an expedition sets out to explore an unknown part of say Africa. While exploring they find a tribe of people who are living the same way they have for hundreds of years. There is no currency. They don't get vacation days or time off. Each person has an assigned job, Hunters, Gathers, cooks, weavers, etc. All this is done to ensure the royal family who they view as holy, doesn't have to lift a finger and lives in comfort. Everyone does their assigned jobs without pay or complaint and everyone is happy and content with their lot in life.

Now comes the "advanced" humans. They instantly try and "help" their savage and uneducated brothers. And try and force their view of how society should work. Telling them they should not do anything for free, they must get paid, and get vacation days etc. They don't have to "serve" or be slaves to their King and his family.

Now, would you consider them morally right to enforce their view of how society should work unto another society? Just because they think their way of life is better and how all Humans should live? Every society of humans on earth has a different outlook on how life should be lived. None is more valid then the other, as long as those living that way are content and happy with the system they made and are living under.

Forcing your moral beliefs and way of life unto others, is no different then a tyrant taking over a country and forcing the people to live how He/She thinks they should be living.

Now take into account that house elves are NOT human. So not only are their moral values different then Humans. But the way the view the world, life, and their purpose in living would be totally different then another species(Humans) view. So why would you try and force a modern Humans moral and social values unto another species?

For all Hermione knows the current system the elves live by could have been set up and agreed apon by the elves of old because that is what they wanted. It is obviously how they still want to live. She has just unilaterally decided that according to how she views things, the house elves are wrong and are being exploited. And even against the house elves wishes, she is still trying to force her view of how they should live on them. To the point she trys to trick and deceive them into doing as she wants.

And you think she is right (or has the right) to do this? Her actions are no different then any tyrant trying to force their view of how things should work unto others who don't agree with her. So short of pulling a LV and trying to physicall force the house elves to live how she thinks they should, Spew is bound to fail. For the simple reason, the house elves are happy and content with how they live and don't want to change.

Nikoli,

There is a difference between service to the King, and forced servitude or slavery. Regardless of what society one is in, slavery is wrong. It is the practice of forcing one to do for another through threat of force or injury.

If a masochist decides that it is right to ram pins through his pectoral muscles and be hoisted into the air, then that is his/her choice. He likes the pain. If a person likes being forced to iron their hands, bang their heads against the wall, get kicked out the door, etc...that must be because it has been done to them for so long that it is normal to do so.

Let us take our friends who live in Seattle, WA. Seattle is the kind of town I would never choose for a home. Why? Because the sun never shines. It rains all the time. Clouds are the norm. It is so cloudy and rainy up there that I would be in a constant state of depression.

For the person who has been born, raised, and lived their lives under the clouds, if the sun does come out, they look to the Heavens and ask God what they did wrong, and how can they make it better. They don't know any better. (YES, I know it is an extremely wrong depiction of Seattle, but it is just because I don't like Seattle.)

How about this...back in the 1970's Patty Hearst, heiress to the William Randolph Hearst family fortune, was abducted, kept prisoner by a radical militia group called The SLA, and several months later she had been brainwashed and, toting a machine gun, robbed a bank with them. It was determined she had what was known as Stockholm Syndrome. She was exonerated (though many still think she should have been convicted) of wrong doing, and underwent treatment.

In this case, had Patty not been abducted she would never have robbed the bank. In the case of the house elves, had they never been placed in bondage, they would not be so willing to enjoy slavery.


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Last edited by rigdoctorbri; January 25th, 2007 at 5:06 am.
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Old January 25th, 2007, 5:18 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

I agree with those who say it wont happen, they seem like its an insult to be free and it terrifies them, now if she limited it to house elfs that a mistreated like Dobby then it might be better, though it still might be ineffective


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Old January 25th, 2007, 5:21 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

Sort of like Battered Elf Sociological Team or BEST


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Old January 25th, 2007, 5:54 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

She will not succeed with her current approach. With her current approach, she is just as bad or worse than everyone else as she does not respect them and is forcing her will on them with no proper plan. However, I think Hermione is a smart girl and will find the right way eventually. I think she'll take it to the Ministry or try to open up some sort of society that actually has good ideals and measures that can be respected and not the underhanded and devious means she's currently trying to use. However, until she starts to respect them, she'll get nowhere.

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Old January 25th, 2007, 8:00 am
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Re: SPEW--Will Hermione succeed on her ideals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilmer_harry02 View Post
We all now, of course, that Hermione founded this society in Book 4. Hermione has'nt succeeded yet to make a big change.BUT--the question is...DO house-elves really want to be freed? Do they wish to be independent? Will they be slaves forever?

WILL HERMIONE MAKE A STAND IN THE MINISTRY OF MAGIC?
I don't think that house elves reallly do want to be freed, because I remember Dobby saying in the Chamber of Secrets that he preferred to be busy because Harry had offered to him to be set free. I believe that house elves do want to be independent. Winky would be a very good example, because she has always had to stand up foe herself because Barty Crouch had been rather cruel to her and had left her in the MOM boxes to fend foe herself as well as save his seat. She wanted to work in the kitchens by herself and not really talk to the other elves because she had been working very hard when she had been Barty's house elf, so she didn't really want to be set free either. I don't think that they will be slaves forever because house elves have always enjoyed working because they do have several freedoms whever they are not needed. I don't think that Hermione will make a stand for the MOM because she has sort-of let the idea go away now, because the story centres around Harry now and the final duel with Lord Voldemort.


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