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The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 17th, 2007, 11:58 am
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic01
Is there anything in canon to say that LV is actually aware that in attacking Harry as a baby, he made Harry his equal?
I thought not. At least not at the time. I think Dumbledore makes it clear in HBP when he said this:

HBP, UK Edition, pg 476 "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says is only significant because Voldemort made it so. I told you this at the end of last year. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him - and in doing so he made you ther person who would be most dangerous to him!"


If Voldemort knew what he was doing, I don't think he would have attempted it. As Dumbledore goes onto say later, Voldemort leapt into action after hearing the prophecy. He did so because he was afraid that there may finally be someone who would rise up against him. His fear of death was the thing that spurred him into trying to kill Harry. Had he not been so afraid, he never would have attacked the Potters and Harry would not have been marked as Voldemort's equal.

However, Voldemort was aware much later as, in GoF, Voldemort himself admits his mistake:

GoF, Uk Edition, pg 566"His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice....this is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it...but not matter. I can touch him now."

Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him and thought his head would burst with the pain.

Voldemort laughed softly in his ear, then took the finger away and continued adressing the Death Eaters, "I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it."


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  #42  
Old May 17th, 2007, 1:13 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

He is still not aware that Harry is his equal after GOF. He only realises he made a mistake in trying to kill him after his mother gave her life for him and so protected him with an old magic...he still does not realise the significance of his actions that night or what he created because he is still unaware of the full nature of the prophecy.


  #43  
Old May 17th, 2007, 1:26 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

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Originally Posted by coolhandluke View Post
He is still not aware that Harry is his equal after GOF. He only realises he made a mistake in trying to kill him after his mother gave her life for him and so protected him with an old magic...he still does not realise the significance of his actions that night or what he created because he is still unaware of the full nature of the prophecy.
Okay, but he was more aware after OotP when he realised they could tap into each other's minds.


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  #44  
Old May 17th, 2007, 1:26 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

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Originally Posted by IMissPadfoot View Post
Also, as for not being able to control Nagini...I was thinking. After the attack on Arthur at the Ministry, when Harry goes to tell Dumbledore about it, he feels the urge to attack him as if he is still in the mind of Nagini. Does the fact that Harry managed to stop himself mean that, if he could have realised what was going on in the dream, he could have prevented the attack on Arthur? It's not as simple as controlling Nagini by Parseltongue, because of course, Nagini wouldn't obey. But if Harry and Voldemort could slip in and out of each others minds, and Voldemort can posess Nagini, doesn't it stand to reason that Harry could also posess Nagini?
I don't think that Harry would be able to possess Nagini. I don't think he knows how to possess people or creatures. Voldemort said that after he was vaporized at Godric's Hollow the one power left to him was the power to possess things. He said he had a special affinity with snakes. So Voldemort possessed Nagini in order to attack Arthur. Harry was able to "see" the snake attack because he was inside Voldemort's head. I don't think Harry had any control of what Voldemort was doing, nor any control of Nagini. He is just accessing what Voldemort is feeling. And the urge to attack Dumbledore is what Voldemort would feel, so that is why Harry felt it.


  #45  
Old May 17th, 2007, 1:34 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

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Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
I don't think that Harry would be able to possess Nagini. I don't think he knows how to possess people or creatures. Voldemort said that after he was vaporized at Godric's Hollow the one power left to him was the power to possess things. He said he had a special affinity with snakes. So Voldemort possessed Nagini in order to attack Arthur. Harry was able to "see" the snake attack because he was inside Voldemort's head. I don't think Harry had any control of what Voldemort was doing, nor any control of Nagini. He is just accessing what Voldemort is feeling. And the urge to attack Dumbledore is what Voldemort would feel, so that is why Harry felt it.
Hmm, I suppose this is true. It's a shame though. It would have been very interesting if Harry were able to take over control of Nagini!


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  #46  
Old May 17th, 2007, 1:49 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

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Originally Posted by HMN View Post
This is a really good question. It should be able to work both ways - that Harry (if he was skilled at legilimency and/or occlumency) should be able to plant a vision in Voldemort's mind. Which, by the way, would be brilliant! But I think Harry would have to have the desire to tap into Voldemort's mind, which I don't believe he does.

Back to Nagini - I think Harry will be able to communicate with Nagini, but not so sure about being able to control her. I just can't really justify how Harry saw all those scenes involving Voldemort from a 3rd party perspective. If he wasn't seeing them as Voldemort, then who was he seeing them as?
That 3rd party perspective thing was bugging me too. But maybe the visions took on a different format in the earlier days... in that the connection between them was fluctuating, and rather than seeing Voldemort's events in real-time, he saw them as memories transferred over. Like the way my laptop's email service updates with a completed email, but only when it's connected to the internet. Now we know that when you view memories in the penseive, you see them as a third-party perspective...

Oh, but I kinda run into problems with the parts when Harry's scar hurts. Silly me. Because, that seems to be an instantaneous reaction to Voldemort using an unforgiveable. (since the only vision Harry had in which he could keep watching after Voldemort used an unforgiveable was the fake one with Sirius)

Then maybe it's more that he simply couldn't remember that he saw it from Voldemort's point of view... and his memory of the dreams only recorded the events that happened in them... Argh, but that doesn't work either; at the start of GoF he says he saw the thing in the chair, and could remember that he was horrified by it.

Ok, when I started typing I had a sort of clear idea of how to answer, but now, I realise I'm just as stumped about it as you =/


Back to the topic (kinda)... notice something fishy about the only two Ancient Runes that are talked about in the series? Ehwaz (partnership) and Eiwaz (defence)? Hermoine mentions them when she's over-anxious about her exam results and remarks that she mixed them up... and I had a theory for a while that Harry's scar is in the shape of Ehwaz, which equals his "partnership" with the Dark Lord in that the two of them have a link between them. But when I got around to actually having a look at that rune I found that it wasn't the right shape; it looked like an M. BUT have a lookit THIS! http://www.mystic-mouse.co.uk/Runes/Eihwaz.htm Eihwaz (which takes its name from the Yew tree... hmmm) looks _just_ like a three-sectioned lightningbolt! Rotate it a little and it would be nigh identical to Harry's scar (the lightningbolt symbol displayed on JKR's official website)! I'm not sure if anyone's picked up on it before... but I have to say, this is thrilling

So the little story goes that Hermoine - wrongly - thought that the rune for partnership was the rune for defence... I'm trying to see if I can find anything it could have foreshadowed, but other than the obvious, "Harry trusted his scar but it turned out to be wrong", I haven't had much luck.

Ehwaz/partnership fits the scar's functions more accurately than Eihwaz/protection, though I guess if you say that Voldemort transferred powers to Harry that allowed him to escape dangerous situations, Eihwaz/protection can be made to fit the scar too.

*rubs hands* I'm still suprised I actually found the right shape...


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Last edited by Pacmanite; May 17th, 2007 at 2:11 pm.
  #47  
Old May 17th, 2007, 5:34 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMissPadfoot View Post
Well, no. Who would want to, right? But I do think the possiblity is there.
So funny. Thanks!

Quote:
Do you mean the scenes in GoF? Or in OotP?
GoF where he is an outsider. I can see it if Harry can see these things through Nagini's eyes without realizing it - perhaps there was a lingering connection with the most recent Horcrux made with Bertha Jorkins death (pure speculation)
Quote:
Also, as for not being able to control Nagini...I was thinking. After the attack on Arthur at the Ministry, when Harry goes to tell Dumbledore about it, he feels the urge to attack him as if he is still in the mind of Nagini. Does the fact that Harry managed to stop himself mean that, if he could have realised what was going on in the dream, he could have prevented the attack on Arthur? It's not as simple as controlling Nagini by Parseltongue, because of course, Nagini wouldn't obey. But if Harry and Voldemort could slip in and out of each others minds, and Voldemort can posess Nagini, doesn't it stand to reason that Harry could also posess Nagini?
I think as SusanBones111 says that Harry doesn't know how to posess others, so I don't think we'll see him posessing Nagini. I think it is also explained in OotP that Harry sees through Nagini's eyes because Voldemort was posessing the snake at the time - which is why Harry FEELS the anger of LV. I think maybe if he, Harry, was aware of what was going on with the snake he could have changed course. I don't know, is could be like the imperius curse that he was able to throw off where he is aware of being controlled but has that second voice in his ear telling him not to listen? Oooh maybe the bond between them is similar to the Imperius curse that is only powerful when Harry's mind is weak????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacmanite View Post
That 3rd party perspective thing was bugging me too. But maybe the visions took on a different format in the earlier days... in that the connection between them was fluctuating, and rather than seeing Voldemort's events in real-time, he saw them as memories transferred over.

Ok, when I started typing I had a sort of clear idea of how to answer, but now, I realise I'm just as stumped about it as you =/
I know - my head hurts just thinking about it. I like the explaination that the earlier visions could have taken on a different form, maybe more of a knowing and awareness then an active participant. However I do think the visions are real time, which relates to the scar hurting (which you bring up).


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  #48  
Old May 17th, 2007, 6:01 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMN
I think maybe if he, Harry, was aware of what was going on with the snake he could have changed course. I don't know, is could be like the imperius curse that he was able to throw off where he is aware of being controlled but has that second voice in his ear telling him not to listen?
Well...you see that is the train of thought I was hopping on, you just explained it far better. If Harry could get into the mind of Voldemort...could he have changed Nagini's route and stopped the attack on Arthur? Just as he was able to stop himself being Imperiused - could he also have used his power the opposite way to effect Nagini?


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  #49  
Old May 18th, 2007, 10:51 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

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Originally Posted by IMissPadfoot View Post
Well...you see that is the train of thought I was hopping on, you just explained it far better. If Harry could get into the mind of Voldemort...could he have changed Nagini's route and stopped the attack on Arthur? Just as he was able to stop himself being Imperiused - could he also have used his power the opposite way to effect Nagini?
I just finished re-reading GoF so I had Imperio on the brain. So, I looked it up in the Lexicon and here's what it says...
hp-lexicon.orgimpero" L. order, govern, command
One of the Unforgivable Curses, this spell causes the victim to be completely under the command of the caster, who can make the victim do anything the caster wishes.
So I was hoping that there would be something hidden in the defintion that would provide a connection. Order, govern, command. The connection between Harry and Voldemort hasn't really shown that one can Order or Command the other to DO anything - however, in OotP when Harry starts feeling LV's emotions, it is sort of like LV's emotions are governing over Harry's - they poke through without Harry wanting them to or seeking them out.


So, back to the snake, I think Harry may not have been able to outright control Nagini, but perhaps have his presence show enough where Voldemort would have had to leave the snake. Would that have been good for Arthur - NO - but I think if LV felt Harry's presence in the Snake LV wouldn't have been able to continue to possess her. However, as much pain Harry finds when LV possesed him during the battle in the MoM I don't know if Harry would have been able to tolerate it either.

So, where am I going with this? I think there is still some magic of the spell (rebounded AK) left in that scar - and if Avada Kedavra means
"let the thing be destroyed" and the opposite could mean "let the thing be kept together". I have to think about the more and add some later.


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  #50  
Old May 19th, 2007, 12:04 am
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Harry was able to resist the imperius curse becasue it was a foriegn spell trying to impose it's will on Harry. Harry is able to resist the curse because he has strenght of charcater and a pure heart.

The situation with Nagin and his vision of Arthu's attack is different. He was unknowingly seeing through Voldemort's eyes as he possesed Nagini. Voldmeort was controlling Nagini directly, not Harry. Harry isn't able to exert control over Voldmeort becasue, one, he doesn't know how, and two he doesn't even know exactly how he's seing what he's seing. since he was caught unwise in this situation, he wasn't able to stop himself from attacking Arthur. Also I don't think Harry could have stopped Nagini from attacking Arthur, even if he tried. Voldmeort is a much better parstlemouth, Nagini is loyal to Voldmeort and (At least Dumbledore believes) Nagini is a horcrux. So Voldmeort's control over Nagin is almost absolute.

Hoped that clarified things for you!


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  #51  
Old May 21st, 2007, 4:19 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Scifanac View Post
Since he was caught unwise in this situation, he wasn't able to stop himself from attacking Arthur. Also I don't think Harry could have stopped Nagini from attacking Arthur, even if he tried. Voldmeort is a much better parstlemouth, Nagini is loyal to Voldmeort and (At least Dumbledore believes) Nagini is a horcrux. So Voldmeort's control over Nagin is almost absolute.
I realise that what Harry was seeing was actually through the eyes of Voldemort, as he was the one posessing Nagini - but if Harry could have realised that was in fact what was happening - is there any real reason why Harry couldn't have changed the outcome? If Voldemort could access Harry's thoughts and vice versa without the other realising, why couldn't Harry have also got into the mind of Nagini?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMN
The connection between Harry and Voldemort hasn't really shown that one can Order or Command the other to DO anything - however, in OotP when Harry starts feeling LV's emotions, it is sort of like LV's emotions are governing over Harry's - they poke through without Harry wanting them to or seeking them out
Well....in OotP Dumbledore said this:

OotP UK Edition, pg 729"I believed it could not be long before Voldemort attempted to force his way into your mind, to manipulate and misdirect your thoughts."


then a little further on...

OotP UK Edition pg 279"I feared the uses to which he would put you to, the possibility that he might try and possess you."

So, do you think there was the chance Voldemort could have made Harry do things? If not, I guess that completely shoots down my Nagini theory! Just curious as to what people think!


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  #52  
Old May 21st, 2007, 5:07 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

I do think he could have made him do things. What things, I don't know, but I can see LV doing that. What I am most curious about is how strong is this bond? Could they detect where each other are?


  #53  
Old May 21st, 2007, 5:49 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

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Originally Posted by IMissPadfoot View Post
I realise that what Harry was seeing was actually through the eyes of Voldemort, as he was the one posessing Nagini - but if Harry could have realised that was in fact what was happening - is there any real reason why Harry couldn't have changed the outcome? If Voldemort could access Harry's thoughts and vice versa without the other realising, why couldn't Harry have also got into the mind of Nagini?

Well....in OotP Dumbledore said this:

OotP UK Edition, pg 729"I believed it could not be long before Voldemort attempted to force his way into your mind, to manipulate and misdirect your thoughts."


then a little further on...

OotP UK Edition pg 279"I feared the uses to which he would put you to, the possibility that he might try and possess you."

So, do you think there was the chance Voldemort could have made Harry do things? If not, I guess that completely shoots down my Nagini theory! Just curious as to what people think!
Ooooh good quotes. Those quotes imply that Dumbledore had considered it a possibility that Voldemort would have been able to enter Harry's mind from afar and manipulate Harry's actions. Scary! Harry is right in OotP, Dumbledore did envision LV using him as a weapon. I just don't see how this can be a one way communication stream - the bond between Harry and Voldemort - that it should be able to work both ways. That Harry should be able to force his way into Voldemort's thoughts (which we do see glimpses of) to manipulate and misdirect Voldemort's thoughts.

However, I think with Nagini, Harry wouldn't be able to just jump right in and start being as one with Voldemort's soul (IF Nagini is a Horcrux). I think that bit of soul must be protected somehow. However, when Voldemort was possessing the snake, Harry may have been able to access Voldemort's thoughts and misdirected his actions away from Arthur. That is IF the bond is a 2 way street.


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  #54  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 4:13 am
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

"I feared the uses to which he would put you to, the possibility that he might try and possess you."

It's interesting that Voldemort possesses Quirrell by attaching himself when he was nothing but a disembodied soul to Quirrell and that Diary Voldemort possessed Ginny by 'pouring a little' of his soul into her. If possession involves putting at least some of your soul into your victim, I wonder how Voldemort could have possibly have possessed Harry whilst he was at Hogwarts and Voldemort was miles away?


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  #55  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 7:22 am
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Voldemort and Harry are connected through the curse that failed:

Quote:
'The Dark lord is at a considerable distance and the walls
and grounds of Hogwarts are guarded by many ancient spells and charms to ensure the bodily and mental safety of those who dwell within them,' said Snape. 'Time and space matter in magic Potter. Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency.'
'Well then, why do i have to learn Occlumency?'
Snape eyed Harry, tracing his mouth with one long, thin finger as he did so.
'The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter. The curse that failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection between you and the Dark Lord. The evidence sugests that at times, when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable - when you are asleep, for instance - you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions.'
Order of the phoenix chapter 24, page 469 - UK Edition
This hints that once Voldemort became aware of the connection that the spells and charms that protect Hogwarts would not stop Voldemort from misdirecting Harry's thoughts. In essence Voldemort could plant memories into Harry's mind that would push Harry into actions he would have otherwise not have taken. The best example of this is the false memory of Sirius Black being tortured in the ministry of magic that Voldemort planted into Harry's thoughts.

As for possession ? Nagini is easy to answer. If she is a Horcrux then part of Voldemort's soul is inside Nagini, so it would be very easy for him to possess her from distance. Voldemort possessed Harry from a very short distance away before he fled in mortal agony. This goes to the very nature of Harry's connection between himself and Voldemort. If Voldemort can possess Harry, could it work the other way in specific circumstances. I think that the final battle between Harry and Voldemort will come down to a battle of the mind, body and soul, in essence possession. If Harry can pin Voldemort down in a possession then Harry's power to love might come into play and thus cause Voldemort mortal agony (see horcruxes chapter half blood prince). Which would probably be enough to kill him (if all the horcruxes have been destroyed) and sever the connection between Harry and Voldemort. Death i think is the only way that the connection can be broken between Harry and Voldemort. In other words neither can live while the other survives. Whoever breaks the connection lives and the other dies.


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  #56  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 2:14 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

OotP Ch 24 The curse that failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection between you and the Dark Lord. The evidence sugests that at times, when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable - when you are asleep, for instance - you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions.'
Thank you for posting this quote. I think that it is a good definition of what the bond between Harry and Voldemort is. Harry can share the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. So far, that is all we have seen, Harry sharing Voldemort's thoughts. We don't have any indication that Voldemort shares Harry's thoughts. We haven't seen Voldemort make any decisions or take any actions based on Harry's thoughts and emotions.

JK Rowling says that Harry's emotions are too close to the surface for him to be able to perform Occulmency. If we assume that Harry will vanquish Voldemort in the end, then we have to hope that at the best, Harry's bond with Voldemort will be an advantage for him and a disadvantage for Voldemort.


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Old May 22nd, 2007, 3:16 pm
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

I think that LV will probably kill Harry because of the connection. LV can enter Harry's mind and manipulate him. Harry can either trust what he is seeing or disregard it. He probably will start thinking that his everyday thoughts are not his own... This will cause Harry to second guess even himself... <<<dizzy>>>


  #58  
Old May 23rd, 2007, 5:05 am
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin
Voldemort and Harry are connected through the curse that failed
Indeed. The question is why?

Quote:
As for possession ? Nagini is easy to answer. If she is a Horcrux then part of Voldemort's soul is inside Nagini, so it would be very easy for him to possess her from distance.
And so the explanation for why Dumbledore feared Voldemort would be able to possess Harry from distance is...?

Quote:
Originally posted SusanBones111
I think that it is a good definition of what the bond between Harry and Voldemort is. Harry can share the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions.
I think that's only a partial definition. The bond (as defined in the original thread that bore this title) also includes the transfer of some powers from Voldemort to Harry and the pain Harry feels. We should be looking for a 'unifying' theory that can explain all three elements.


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  #59  
Old May 23rd, 2007, 5:55 am
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Do you think Nagini could be controlled by Harry? I tend to think that she might be more susceptible to control by Harry. This could help in both finding her and in the final battle getting to her before getting tto LV. I suspect she might be controllable because Harry was seeing events during his dream through Nagini's eyes.


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  #60  
Old May 23rd, 2007, 9:58 am
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Re: The Bond between Harry & Voldemort v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
Do you think Nagini could be controlled by Harry? I tend to think that she might be more susceptible to control by Harry. This could help in both finding her and in the final battle getting to her before getting tto LV. I suspect she might be controllable because Harry was seeing events during his dream through Nagini's eyes.
*beams* Yay! Someone with my way of thinking. I totally think this is possible.

In regards to it being of any future help though, I'm not so sure. As Voldemort is now aware of the connection between himself and Harry, I would think he would be much more careful not to let Harry gain access to his thoughts again - unless it was an attempt to trap him again.


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