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Why does Voldemort trust Snape?



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 27th, 2007, 11:29 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

I am in line with the belief that Voldemort is not capable of trust. Trust is Dumbledore's gift.

I believe Voldemort uses Snape to garner information. But I don't believe we have anything in canon that says Voldy "trusts" Snape- or anyone at all for that matter.

Furthermore, Voldy doesn't need to trust Snape to get what he wants. I wouldn't be surprised at all if -at the end of the day- Voldemort revealed to Snape that he's seen through him the entire time and was only allowing Snape to believe he "blocked" him out - because he was using Snape as a means to an end.
.....
However if he does rely on Snape for any particular reason that sets him apart from the other DEs - And Snape has "Fooled" him. It maybe that Snape came back to LV with nothing to "protect" as it were. Unlike the other DEs, Snape had a a safe place to hide from Voldy in his job at Hogwarts and had nothing to gain by leaving it. And for all appearances-Snape had no family connections to protect, (unlike Lucius) or reasons to fear retribution against anyone other than himself. But he came back any way. Perhaps- Voldemort saw something -useful- in that act alone?

When Snape stepped into Voldy's path he risked his life. Perhaps Snape "spun" his dislike for Harry , saying that his hatred of Potter was even worth risking his life to Voldemort, rather than spend the rest of his safe life "tolerating Potter"- or something to that effect.



Last edited by Bscorp; May 27th, 2007 at 11:49 pm.
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  #42  
Old May 28th, 2007, 6:29 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I am in line with the belief that Voldemort is not capable of trust. Trust is Dumbledore's gift.

I believe Voldemort uses Snape to garner information. But I don't believe we have anything in canon that says Voldy "trusts" Snape- or anyone at all for that matter.

Furthermore, Voldy doesn't need to trust Snape to get what he wants. I wouldn't be surprised at all if -at the end of the day- Voldemort revealed to Snape that he's seen through him the entire time and was only allowing Snape to believe he "blocked" him out - because he was using Snape as a means to an end.
I agree completely

We are never given any proof that Voldemort actually trusts Severus. All we have is Severus's word; and its been written so that we aren't sure whether he's lying or telling the truth, so his word has been cast into shadow. Then we have that commment from Voldemort in the graveyard scene from GoF, where he mentions that there is someone who he believes has left him forever and who he will kill for that betrayal. Now, the only option for who that person is, based on the evidence we have, is Severus.

Now, obviously he hasn't been killed.....yet..... but the fact remains that Severus's loyalties has been put into question by Voldemort himself. Now, Voldemort may have wanted to kill him when he returned; but he also wants to gain information. And really, the only person in his ranks that is in the position to gain any, is Severus; which would be inducement enough for him to keep him alive... at least until he runs out of uses for him.

But lets not forget, just because he allowed him to live, doesn't mean he trusts him. It's as the saying goes: keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. That is basically what it appears Voldemort is doing. And, by doing that, he is able to feed Severus false information about what he's planning; and if he learns that the Order has gone along with that intelligence, then he will know for sure that Severus is attempting to play him for a fool.

Voldemort may be a madman, but he's no fool; and neither is Severus, for that matter.


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  #43  
Old May 28th, 2007, 11:57 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Quote:
I am in line with the belief that Voldemort is not capable of trust. Trust is Dumbledore's gift.
Quote:
Voldemort may be a madman, but he's no fool; and neither is Severus, for that matter.
Totally agree on these two!

Trust is a positive attitude, which Voldemort lacks the heart for. Remember Dumbledore who says that Voldemort will choose his horcruxes over the Elixer of Life, because he does not want to rely on external aspects. I believe that horcruxes is both the ideal escape and the maximum of risk Voldemort is willing to take in order to secure his immortality.

I think Voldemort will unwrap his evil plans in book 7 by testing Snape. He does not trust him in my eyes, so he will promote him and give him a so-called royal chance to once and for all prove his loyalty. He will give him the rank of lieutenant ro something, his 'little prince' and Snape will have to show that he too is capable of torturing others, to shw Voldemort that he too has no pity. And a nice test-subject is Harry, who else? Wouldn't that be a nice ending: Harry captured, Snape must torture him, but because he is still on the good side, he will not be able to follow Lord Evil's plans and fight against the Great Bully himself, together with Harry?

I think it won't happen, I like the idea though. Voldemort will test Snape his loyalty, though he will never give him trust and Harry and Snape will have to trust each other... ghegege.


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  #44  
Old June 5th, 2007, 4:18 pm
Kalinsias  Undisclosed.gif Kalinsias is offline
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

I believe that DD's trust is based on knowledge that Snape does love someone, but I believe that person to be Lily Potter. Several things lead me to this:
  • The memory that Harry sees in the pensieve is more than just an embarrassment for Snape as he is levitated by Sirius. In fact, in Snape's twisted way of thinking, he might have wanted Harry to see that part, since it showed a less than honorable side of James Potter. The part that made it such a bad memory for Snape is how he treated Lily. He lashed out at her in pride and hurt the only person he cared about.
  • Slughorn makes very clear that Lily was a Potions prodigy. It is likely that Snape, himself very knowledgeable about Potions (as evidenced by the HBP's book), spent a lot of time studying alongside Lily. That would be ample opportunity for a loner/introvert such as the young Snape to develop a huge, unrequited crush on her. The fact that she is so energetic and lively makes this even more likely. It is even possible that some of the notes in the Potions book are his transcriptions of her ideas.
  • We know one thing that Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa at Spinner's End was false: when he stated that he thought Harry might be another dark wizard whom the Death Eaters could rally around. Not so. Remember the first time Harry sees Snape in PS/SS - in the Great Hall. Harry sees Snape gazing at him and from the look on Snape's face, Harry knows that Snape loathes him. Snape tells Bellatrix and Narcissa that he was curious about Harry and attempted to see if Harry was exceptional, but in reality, he hates him from Day 1...from the first time he lays eyes on Harry.
  • Which leads to the next point. Lily's eyes are said to be her most striking feature. It is how Harry recognizes Lily in Snape's memory. Harry has Lily's eyes, but James's face. So he is, in reality, a living reminder that a person Snape hates (James), got the girl he loved (Lily). Everytime he looks at Harry, he is reminded.
  • One important thing about DD's trust in Snape is when Snape is accused of being a Death Eater (at one of DD's trial memories in GoF, I think). DD states that Snape was indeed a Death Eater, but prior to Lord Voldemort's fall, turned against him and became a spy. I believe that Snape reported the prophecy to Voldemort and, when he found out which child Voldemort had chosen to pursue (Harry), that was what turned him. His realization that he had essentially ensured Lily's doom was more than he could take. Love overcame lust for power, which is a central theme for these books. And such a course of events would be a rock-solid reason for DD to trust Snape all the way to the end. It could also be that this is why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily - knowing that it would cost him Snape's loyalty (I can think of no other plausible reason that Voldemort would hesitate at all in this, Lily being muggle-born). Which would lend credence to the idea that Voldemort knew (or at least, knows now) that Snape is a spy and is just using him as best he can.
Works for me. And in case the above didn't make it clear, I believe DD was correct to trust Snape. On the top of the Astronomy tower, just before Snape killed DD, they gazed at each other. I'm thinking that there was some serious Legilimancy going on there, and Snape's next action was at DD's instruction, though I am really interested to find out what DD said to him.

After that, all the way out, Snape could be lobbing jeers and insults about how stupid they all were to trust him, which would be at least somewhat in character for him. If nothing else, he could have stopped Harry with a silent Petrificus Totalus. Instead, he is still teaching Harry. Still instructing him on what skills he'd better be mastering if he wants to stand a chance against Voldemort. The one exception is when Harry continues to call him a coward. Be honest...if you had been operating as a spy against a person as dangerous as Voldemort, risking that for 2 whole years (since Voldemort's return at the end of GoF), how would you take being called a coward? Give a moment's thought to what would likely happen to Snape if he was found out. Death would be the least of his worries. If I am right, the last thing Snape can be is a coward.

Like I said, works for me.


  #45  
Old June 5th, 2007, 4:58 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I am in line with the belief that Voldemort is not capable of trust. Trust is Dumbledore's gift.

I believe Voldemort uses Snape to garner information. But I don't believe we have anything in canon that says Voldy "trusts" Snape- or anyone at all for that matter.

Furthermore, Voldy doesn't need to trust Snape to get what he wants. I wouldn't be surprised at all if -at the end of the day- Voldemort revealed to Snape that he's seen through him the entire time and was only allowing Snape to believe he "blocked" him out - because he was using Snape as a means to an end.
I suspect this as well.

LV would have to be very very foolish if he didn't suspect Snape. LV was pretty angry at his DEs in the graveyard in GoF for their lack of loyalty during his exile - so that might be a sign that he's going to be more cautious this time around. I've always wondered if Snape brought something really good to the table post-GoF in order to get LV to welcome him back into the fold: information on DD and Hogwarts is helpful, yes, but I wouldn't want to approach LV with that alone. And I suspect that LV might have orchestrated the entire UV just to lure Snape into choosing a side.

Like Bscorp says: LV can still get information from Snape. An effective double agent has to offer accurate information sometimes to keep up the act. Snape isn't completely useless to LV.


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  #46  
Old June 5th, 2007, 5:13 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Just had a thought: DD was inclined to trust people; Voldy is inclined to distrust people and then kill them. Therefore it would take stronger reasoning to make Voldy trust you than it would to make DD trust you. If we assume that Snape has used his best, wittiest, strongest reasoning on both sides, it stands to reason that he had stronger arguments to be trusted by Voldy. In other words Voldy is right in trusting him?

But I'm not commiting - I'll wait 'till July!


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  #47  
Old June 5th, 2007, 5:17 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

snape has played his role with voldemort well and is evil enough not to look suspicious. Plus, things he has done definently point to alligence with voldemort.


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  #48  
Old June 5th, 2007, 8:10 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinsias View Post
I believe that DD's trust is based on knowledge that Snape does love someone, but I believe that person to be Lily Potter. Several things lead me to this:
  • The memory that Harry sees in the pensieve is more than just an embarrassment for Snape as he is levitated by Sirius. In fact, in Snape's twisted way of thinking, he might have wanted Harry to see that part, since it showed a less than honorable side of James Potter. The part that made it such a bad memory for Snape is how he treated Lily. He lashed out at her in pride and hurt the only person he cared about.
  • Slughorn makes very clear that Lily was a Potions prodigy. It is likely that Snape, himself very knowledgeable about Potions (as evidenced by the HBP's book), spent a lot of time studying alongside Lily. That would be ample opportunity for a loner/introvert such as the young Snape to develop a huge, unrequited crush on her. The fact that she is so energetic and lively makes this even more likely. It is even possible that some of the notes in the Potions book are his transcriptions of her ideas.
  • We know one thing that Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa at Spinner's End was false: when he stated that he thought Harry might be another dark wizard whom the Death Eaters could rally around. Not so. Remember the first time Harry sees Snape in PS/SS - in the Great Hall. Harry sees Snape gazing at him and from the look on Snape's face, Harry knows that Snape loathes him. Snape tells Bellatrix and Narcissa that he was curious about Harry and attempted to see if Harry was exceptional, but in reality, he hates him from Day 1...from the first time he lays eyes on Harry.
  • Which leads to the next point. Lily's eyes are said to be her most striking feature. It is how Harry recognizes Lily in Snape's memory. Harry has Lily's eyes, but James's face. So he is, in reality, a living reminder that a person Snape hates (James), got the girl he loved (Lily). Everytime he looks at Harry, he is reminded.
  • One important thing about DD's trust in Snape is when Snape is accused of being a Death Eater (at one of DD's trial memories in GoF, I think). DD states that Snape was indeed a Death Eater, but prior to Lord Voldemort's fall, turned against him and became a spy. I believe that Snape reported the prophecy to Voldemort and, when he found out which child Voldemort had chosen to pursue (Harry), that was what turned him. His realization that he had essentially ensured Lily's doom was more than he could take. Love overcame lust for power, which is a central theme for these books. And such a course of events would be a rock-solid reason for DD to trust Snape all the way to the end. It could also be that this is why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily - knowing that it would cost him Snape's loyalty (I can think of no other plausible reason that Voldemort would hesitate at all in this, Lily being muggle-born). Which would lend credence to the idea that Voldemort knew (or at least, knows now) that Snape is a spy and is just using him as best he can.
Works for me. And in case the above didn't make it clear, I believe DD was correct to trust Snape. On the top of the Astronomy tower, just before Snape killed DD, they gazed at each other. I'm thinking that there was some serious Legilimancy going on there, and Snape's next action was at DD's instruction, though I am really interested to find out what DD said to him.

After that, all the way out, Snape could be lobbing jeers and insults about how stupid they all were to trust him, which would be at least somewhat in character for him. If nothing else, he could have stopped Harry with a silent Petrificus Totalus. Instead, he is still teaching Harry. Still instructing him on what skills he'd better be mastering if he wants to stand a chance against Voldemort. The one exception is when Harry continues to call him a coward. Be honest...if you had been operating as a spy against a person as dangerous as Voldemort, risking that for 2 whole years (since Voldemort's return at the end of GoF), how would you take being called a coward? Give a moment's thought to what would likely happen to Snape if he was found out. Death would be the least of his worries. If I am right, the last thing Snape can be is a coward.

Like I said, works for me.






I have been operating on the same explanation of Snape as well. I totally agree with you about his worst memory being about how he treated Lily. I have been thinking that for awhile too. I agree that Snape has some issues but like you said here he is being a spy and having to do crazy difficult things and this punk kid is calling you a coward. Who wouldn't get a little mad?

I don't think Voldie trusts Snape at all. Trust isn't his thing. He is using him as a means to an end. Snape knows he is being used, he knows how the game is played and when the time comes to get out he will or he will be the one to help Harry probably dying to do it. Just as Lily sacrificed herself for Harry.


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  #49  
Old June 5th, 2007, 9:18 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

yeah I think voldy is mad to trust Snape. No one should trust Snape, never trust a spy.

Just kidding Snape is obviously working for DD. I think Voldy just thinks he is sooooo useful that he doesn't want to loose him.


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  #50  
Old June 10th, 2007, 5:40 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinsias View Post
I believe that DD's trust is based on knowledge that Snape does love someone, but I believe that person to be Lily Potter.
If that is true, perhaps this is the form of bribery to which someone alluded at the beginning of this thread. Assuming that LV was aware of this unrequited love, could that be the form of his bribery? When LV told Lily to stand aside at Godric's Hollow - was he keeping her alive for Snape? Was Lily's death the final nail in the coffin (so to speak) that made Snape turn to the good side? It's indeed a stretch, I know...

But on the subject of LV trusting Snape: we have seen in the past that LV is quite narrow-minded (i.e. believing nothing is worse than death). He probably cannot fathom that someone with Snape's obvious talent would want to work for the "good" side, when LV allows a wizard to develop and explore their powers further than if they worked for Dumbledore.


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  #51  
Old June 10th, 2007, 6:44 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

I think it's very simple. I think Voldemort uses Legilimency on all his Death Eaters - he's very good at it, so he can probably do it undetected if he wants to. But Snape is a superb Occlumens - I don't think Voldemort knows exactly how good he is - and he lets Voldemort see enough to trust him and no more.


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  #52  
Old June 10th, 2007, 8:43 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

I think he has to. Snape was a vital part in his plans, especially in HBP.


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Old June 10th, 2007, 9:17 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
I think it's very simple. I think Voldemort uses Legilimency on all his Death Eaters - he's very good at it, so he can probably do it undetected if he wants to. But Snape is a superb Occlumens - I don't think Voldemort knows exactly how good he is - and he lets Voldemort see enough to trust him and no more.
Do you think it's as simple as that? I have a hard time thinking that Voldemort takes what he sees at face value - he must know that Snape is a good Occlumens. And as Snape is a double agent, I'm inclined to think he keeps a more watchful eye on Snape than on his lesser minions.


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Old June 10th, 2007, 9:23 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

he's arrogant enough to believe that nobody can fool him. he is the most powerful wizard and doesn't even consider someone might be playing him.


  #55  
Old June 10th, 2007, 10:09 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

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Originally Posted by pennylane View Post
Do you think it's as simple as that? I have a hard time thinking that Voldemort takes what he sees at face value - he must know that Snape is a good Occlumens. And as Snape is a double agent, I'm inclined to think he keeps a more watchful eye on Snape than on his lesser minions.
I think it's as simple as that. Like I said, I don't think Voldemort knows exactly how excellent an Occlumens Snape is, and he doesn't realise Snape is hiding stuff from him. But I really think Voldemort is likely to use legilimency on the DEs, and therefore Snape must be using occlumency against it.


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  #56  
Old June 10th, 2007, 10:44 pm
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

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Originally Posted by coolhandluke View Post
he's arrogant enough to believe that nobody can fool him. he is the most powerful wizard and doesn't even consider someone might be playing him.
I agree that Voldemort is arrogant, so arrogant that he might think that no one would dare to fool him. But he also doesn't trust anyone, even his Death Eaters. He would always be very wary of Snape.


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Old June 12th, 2007, 1:11 am
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Re: Why does Voldemort trust Snape?

Snape is the most powerfull Occlumens Alive

Voldemort trusts no one. He didn't trust Snape before Dumbledore was killed and he won't trust him after. To trust someone is to like them, and Voldemort will never like anyone- never have a friend. The only reason Snape is alive is because he is a superb Occlumens. I do think he is living on borrowed time- sometime, someplace, he is going to slip up under the constant scrutiny.

It's easy to see how he became a death eater- he had a lot of scores to settle, a lot of grudges. It's less easy to see why he made the sudden about-face. It had to be something that he cherished more than his own life, cause it means instant death if Voldemort ever finds out.

It involved the prophecy, which also involves the Potters. Snape would have never lifted a finger or wasted a thought if just James had perished. Would he have cared that much for a child? Remember Harry's intrusion into Snape's mind during an Occlumency session and the glimpse of Snape's own childhood. Perhaps he could not bear to see a child murdered. Perhaps he could not bear to see Lily's child murdered.

Snape was in love with Lily. He may have felt he wasn't worthy of her. Perhaps he was even angry with himself for feeling this way- calling her a mudblood would in a twisted way put the blame on her for not liking him. Why else did he go to Dumbledore about the prophecy? Why else turn traitor to Voldemort? Why else protect Harry while still hating him? Snape loved Lily. His treatment of Harry is a combination of his hatred for James, and for the memory of Lily it forces on him again.


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