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New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2



 
 
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  #81  
Old July 27th, 2006, 4:13 pm
Rain_Darkwood  Male.gif Rain_Darkwood is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

McGonagall may not have been in the original order, but I see no reason why that means she can't lead. And after all, there is at least one indication that she WAS in fact in the original order - on the night Harry's parents died, McGonagall immediately set about on surveillance for Dumbledore at the Dursley residence. Sounds like order work to me. She seems to be an intelligence officer for the order, which means she probably took ehr orders directly from Dumbledore - and we certainly don't know EXACTLY whom was in every order meeting. It's all about who's capable, not who's been there longest, that's absurd. Skill-wise, MacGonagall is a great wizard, there are hints of that all over the series. She's also very intelligent and tactful. She took over Dumbledore's position as transfiguration teacher as well; transfiguration is a very difficult subject and she's a master of it.

Skill-wise, McGonagall is my choice with Lupin and Arthur Weasley next.
Leadership-wise, McGonagall is my top choice with Arthur Weasley and Moody next.
For traditional inheritance of leadership, McGonagall is again my top choice with Harry next.


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  #82  
Old July 27th, 2006, 4:28 pm
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

I would probably have to say Lupin could probably take charge or Moody, nobody will be able to have as much influence or take on as much responsibilities as Dumbledore did but they could probably keep things under control. I dont really see McGonagal taking on Head Mistress and head of the OotP aswell.

Man do we really need Dumbledore. Nobody can do as much as he did


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  #83  
Old July 27th, 2006, 4:30 pm
valhalla valhalla is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Moody would be my pick. he knows the way dark wizards thinks. then in order i would choose: molly, remus, arthur and charlie.


  #84  
Old July 27th, 2006, 10:26 pm
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain_Darkwood
McGonagall may not have been in the original order, but I see no reason why that means she can't lead. And after all, there is at least one indication that she WAS in fact in the original order - on the night Harry's parents died, McGonagall immediately set about on surveillance for Dumbledore at the Dursley residence. Sounds like order work to me. She seems to be an intelligence officer for the order, which means she probably took ehr orders directly from Dumbledore - and we certainly don't know EXACTLY whom was in every order meeting. It's all about who's capable, not who's been there longest, that's absurd. Skill-wise, MacGonagall is a great wizard, there are hints of that all over the series. She's also very intelligent and tactful. She took over Dumbledore's position as transfiguration teacher as well; transfiguration is a very difficult subject and she's a master of it.

Skill-wise, McGonagall is my choice with Lupin and Arthur Weasley next.
Leadership-wise, McGonagall is my top choice with Arthur Weasley and Moody next.
For traditional inheritance of leadership, McGonagall is again my top choice with Harry next.
Actually, McGonagall DOES NOT go to the Dursleys' on Dumbledore's orders. Here's the quote:
Quote:
"You'd be stiff if you'd been sitting on a brick wall all day," said Professor McGonagall.
"All day? When you could have been celebrating?"
Obviously, if he tells her that she could have been celebrating, she was not there on his orders. She went to find Dumbledore, not to spy on the Dursleys.

No, of course it's not just about who's been there the longest, but who's the most experienced in the kind of work the Order does is directly related to who's been there the longest, and experience is important in a case like this. Think about it this way: in an army, the General is probably one of the most experienced people. The same holds true for the Order, since it is basically an army. We've only seen McGonagall in one fight. Lupin and Moody, however, are experienced in much more dangerous roles than Hogwarts Transfiguration teacher. They're both in Harry's guard and at the Ministry in OotP. Moody was an Auror; he was paid to fight Death Eaters. Lupin was Dumbledore's spy on Greyback. They both know how to handle dangerous situations. We don't really know if McGonagall has that kind of experience, and it would appear that she doesn't: she's in her late 60's or early 70's if I remember corectly and she's been teaching for 40 years. So she's ben teaching pretty much all her life. Not exactly dangerous. So basically, Lupin and Moody are much more experienced in the stuff that matters when fighting a war than McGonagall is.

McGonagall is undoubtedly a good leader, but without an understanding of what those under her are doing, whether it be fighting off Death Eaters or spying, she cannot advise them in how to handle a situation. If I'm right about her lack of experience, then, no matter how good a leader she is, se cannot run the Order well. Moody and Lupin are much better qualified in this respect. And Moody's complete and utter lack of tact does not improve his chances. I therefore still think that Lupin is the best choice. He's experienced and is a good leader (you'll note that all his students, with the obvious exception of Draco Malfoy, respect him within a week).

Quote:
Originally posted by hcnbedbugs:
I would probably have to say Lupin could probably take charge or Moody, nobody will be able to have as much influence or take on as much responsibilities as Dumbledore did but they could probably keep things under control. I dont really see McGonagal taking on Head Mistress and head of the OotP aswell.
Well said


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  #85  
Old July 27th, 2006, 11:07 pm
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peg
Lupin was Dumbledore's spy on Greyback.

Moody and Lupin are much better qualified in this respect. And Moody's complete and utter lack of tact does not improve his chances. I therefore still think that Lupin is the best choice.
The only reason Lupin was Dumbledore's spy on Greyback is because he is a werewolf. If Lupin wasn't a werewolf than he wouldn't be spying on Greyback. If, say, Dedalus Diggle was a werewolf - he would probably be spying on Greyback.

Moody's complete and utter lack of tact? We've seen him a very small amount (the Advanced Guard, some random times at Grimmauld Place, and the Department of Mysteries) so we cannot really judge. Also, he seemed to care a lot about those with him (he didn't want Harry to lose a buttock, he wanted to make sure everyone didn't get seen by the Muggles while flying). Moody is probably not the sensitive, caring person that Lupin is, but he definitely cares about what happens to those in the Order/those he knows well. Also, it seemed to me that Moody was the leader of the Advanced Guard. He was the one in charge of everyone, and he was the one giving directions. Lupin was there so that Harry knew that it wasn't a trick. I'm sure that Lupin would be a good leader, but I think Dumbledore would let Moody handle everything above Lupin. Also, Moody is a more reliable wizard to have as the leader. Lupin is good for a long time, but around the full moon he starts getting ill and then he turns into a werewolf. The Order cannot have a leader they cannot rely on for 5 days each month.


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  #86  
Old July 28th, 2006, 1:13 am
Rain_Darkwood  Male.gif Rain_Darkwood is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

A good point. And also, Lupin simply isn't a leadership type. He's fine leading a classroom of kids as a teacher, but he simply isn't outspoken enough. He doesn't get passionate about things during arguments and such. His opinion is always highly valued by his peers, but they simply do not go to him to solve their problems. He is too far on the fringes of what's going on to suddenly be thrust into the middle as a leader.

Moody would be better. Though he is regarded by his peers in the order as paranoid, so I simply cannot see him as being "elected" to the leader's position.

I can admit that McGonagall probably wouldn't be "elected" as a leader as well, for her lack of experience (though I say the army analogy was pretty meaningless, as the order is a small tactical group as opposed to a large body of soldiers) though I stand by my claim that if given the choice myself, I would choose McGonagall.


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  #87  
Old July 28th, 2006, 9:36 am
Idril87  Female.gif Idril87 is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Oh...I didn't think about this point...It should be someone with some experiences...Lupin or McGonagall or Moody...but what if he would be Harry? He's the one who knows more about Voldemort...he faced him so many times...and he must search the Horcruxes...but, maybe he's too busy...


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  #88  
Old July 28th, 2006, 11:23 am
Rain_Darkwood  Male.gif Rain_Darkwood is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

None of the adult members would follow Harry. Doesn't matter if he's literally come of age, he just wouldn't be able to lead them at all. I understand, everyone likes the concept of the protagonist becoming a big leader and all, but frankly it isn't gonna happen and shouldn't. Harry becoming leader of the OoTP would not be entertaining to read, in my humble opinion.


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  #89  
Old July 28th, 2006, 12:07 pm
Googlers Googlers is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Interesting things been discussed here. BUt the thing we must first look at is Dumbledore:

He was a genius among his peers! People wanted him to be minister (I think the reason he declined was precisely because he was leader of the order). He was extremely powerful - the only one he ever feared and whatnot.

Now, who can possibly match that kind of CV/Resumé? I don't think anyone really can, unless you count Voldemort himself. They were the two greatest of their times, IMO. Perhaps it should be RAB, but I don't think that's currently possible.

I remember someone, I think it was the patron of the Hospital wing, saying that nobody could have taken McGonnegal like that (with those stunners), when she was younger, which implies she has some power. She's strict, hard and gets the job done. Remember in first year Harry had the opinion upon first seeing her that she would be someone you wouldn't want to cross ... they crossed her when they killed Dumbleodre!

It would be interesting if the Order believed Snape's innocence, and he became the leader. He was truested a LOT by Dumbledore (and I don't think he's a bad guy! Or that if he is, he'll turn back in the next book, for read). I don't think it could happen though! They wouldn't make him Secret Keeper (Assuming the leader is the keeper), it's too risky!

Moody would be another alternative. I don't know if I could see him being it though. He's rather eccentric. Well, so was Dumbledore, but Not in the same paranoid way. He was great though! A survivor, and a veteran of many battles with the Death Eaters, and that's what the order needs. But do they need it as their leader? Or would it be more apt to have someone like him as a fighter amoungst the ranks?

Who else? Perhaps Mr. Weasley. I don't know if I could see him being a good leader. A good follower, yes. He's very following and loyal, but I don't know if he has it in himself to lead. He doesn't have the ... thing in him to be that kind of person, who would put people out on the front to battle. He, perhaps, would, but it would change him.

I don't think any of the other Weasleies (haha), would/could be the leader.

Harry ... Hmmm, I don't know. I don't think so, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was.

Dumbledore's brother ... I don't think we have seen enough of him for him to become leader. If he does, it's on account of his brother's fame, but I don't think that's a good enough reason. He likes goats though. And that's pretty much all we know about him. He has a pub, he (possibly, Dumbleodre doesn't know), can't read ... the latter being the best skill for a leader!

Lupin, in my opinion, is probably the best choice! He knows his stuff, is a strong battler, and has suffered, both through werewolves, and Voldemort (Siriius, Lily, James etc. These were all good friends of his).

However, Dumbledore was a very organised person! He probably left a list of people to follow in his footsteps in the case of his death.


  #90  
Old July 28th, 2006, 10:55 pm
kaelys kaelys is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

I don't think there will be an Order of the Phoenix. I think it died with Dumbledore.

Dumbledore was the real leader of the Anti-LV movement, and now that he is gone it has fallen to Harry. AD was more like a general; issuing orders and planing stategy. Harry is part of that strategy.

But Harry isn't going to defeat LV the way that AD would. He'll fight the young man's fight, and by going after the horcruxes he'll take the fight to LV.

At this point, just like the ministry, the Order is irrelevent. Without it's true leader, Dumbledore, it can only function to divert LV's attention.

Which isn't to say that the members of the Order wont play an important role. I suspect they will. But The Order itself wont function as we know it.


  #91  
Old July 29th, 2006, 12:24 am
GodricGreyback GodricGreyback is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaelys
I don't think there will be an Order of the Phoenix. I think it died with Dumbledore.

Dumbledore was the real leader of the Anti-LV movement, and now that he is gone it has fallen to Harry. AD was more like a general; issuing orders and planing stategy. Harry is part of that strategy.

But Harry isn't going to defeat LV the way that AD would. He'll fight the young man's fight, and by going after the horcruxes he'll take the fight to LV.

At this point, just like the ministry, the Order is irrelevent. Without it's true leader, Dumbledore, it can only function to divert LV's attention.

Which isn't to say that the members of the Order wont play an important role. I suspect they will. But The Order itself wont function as we know it.
Do you realy think that the rest of the Order is just going to give up now that Voldemort's aggresion will escalate and fufilling the Order's tasks will become even more difficult (because Dumbledore's gone).

There is no way that Harry will be the new leader of anything or anyone significant. He will be burdened to much trying to locate the horcruxes.

I don't know where you get the idea that the Order is irrelevent. It is still intact (even with the significant blow of Dumbledore's death). And if you really think that Harry's going to defeat Voldemort by himself (that's if he can get past Dementors, Death Eaters, Giants, and any other creatures or enchantments protecting Voldemort), than you've got another thing coming to you.


But back on topic, I think that the new leader of the Order will be Madeye Moody. He has the most experience out of all of them and his "constant vigilance" and ability to concentrate on nothing else than the order's objectives and tasks will be a great asset if he becomes the leader.


  #92  
Old July 29th, 2006, 12:37 am
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

the three top most people to get the post are Lupin, Minerva or Arthur Weasly


  #93  
Old July 29th, 2006, 12:43 am
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

I really don't think one will be assigned immeadiately. I do not think it is on the top of the to-do list as of yet. However if someone has to be appointed the new leader of the Order, I think possibly Harry will, only because he has to kill Voldemort anyway so why not. But Harry is still only 16 (will be 17 shortly after the beginning of Book 7), so I think that possibly Arthur, or Lupin will be put in charge, although I do not think they will really have to do much.


  #94  
Old July 29th, 2006, 12:43 am
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

When I think about it. I don't believe that Moody, McGonagall or Lupin have that ability to "think outside the box" that made Albus Dumbledore special, though Remus comes closest.

I think that Sirius might have made the perfect leader, but that won't happen. Next in the "unconventional sense" would be Tonks...with perhaps Kingsley Shacklebolt after her.

But I still have to come back to harry. Not as a day-to-day supervisor, but in providing leadership and direction. After all, Dumbledore was out on the road looking for Horcruxes, he wasn't doing those things.

As well, the adults are already following Harry's direction. Arthur Weasley searched the Malfoy house simply at Harry's suggestion. That's the kind of leadership that Harry would provide. After all, the Order's role will really be to support his efforts, and not merely in finding Horcruxes. There is far more to his mission than that.

They also know--whether they actually know--that Harry is the Chosen One. They, if anyone can, can see the connection between Harry and Dumbledore. If Scrimgeour knew about those private lessons, those trips, can the Order, via McGonagall, Snape and Flitwick, be completely blind? Whether they know the details at all, they will know that Harry must be supported at all costs.

And since Harry is the only one that knows the details, that makes him the de facto 'leader" of the Order of the Phoenix.

Gee, this is going to end up on the bottom of the page, isn't it?


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  #95  
Old July 30th, 2006, 1:43 am
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead
The only reason Lupin was Dumbledore's spy on Greyback is because he is a werewolf. If Lupin wasn't a werewolf than he wouldn't be spying on Greyback. If, say, Dedalus Diggle was a werewolf - he would probably be spying on Greyback.

Moody's complete and utter lack of tact? We've seen him a very small amount (the Advanced Guard, some random times at Grimmauld Place, and the Department of Mysteries) so we cannot really judge. Also, he seemed to care a lot about those with him (he didn't want Harry to lose a buttock, he wanted to make sure everyone didn't get seen by the Muggles while flying). Moody is probably not the sensitive, caring person that Lupin is, but he definitely cares about what happens to those in the Order/those he knows well. Also, it seemed to me that Moody was the leader of the Advanced Guard. He was the one in charge of everyone, and he was the one giving directions. Lupin was there so that Harry knew that it wasn't a trick. I'm sure that Lupin would be a good leader, but I think Dumbledore would let Moody handle everything above Lupin. Also, Moody is a more reliable wizard to have as the leader. Lupin is good for a long time, but around the full moon he starts getting ill and then he turns into a werewolf. The Order cannot have a leader they cannot rely on for 5 days each month.
I know he was only a spy because he happens to be a werewolf. I only brought that up because it shows that he has experience handling dangerous situations.

Yes, Moody is, quite frankly, tactless. Yes, he cares about his friends, but tact is not caring. It is manners, which Moody lacks. Moody doesn't care how many people he upsets. He pops out his magical eye quite frequently and doesn't appear to realize that it's really quite disgusting (or h doesn't really care). He's very blunt about everything (telling Harry how various people died at a party). These aren't habits that make people like you. In fact, they tend to offend people. Moody is not exactly much of a negotiator, which won't help the Order's relationship with the Ministry, and if Voldemort is to be defeated, the rest of the wizarding world must unite (that unity theme again), which won't happen if the Order and the Ministry go their separate ways. The Order needs a good diplomat in charge. Moody does not fit that role. Lupin does.

The full moon is only one night a month, not a week every month. Lupin only misses class once in PoA, remember. And Moody is hardly more reliable. He doesn't trust anyone, which is not good for a leader. He'd end up doing everyone else's jobs himself.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rain_Darkwood:
A good point. And also, Lupin simply isn't a leadership type. He's fine leading a classroom of kids as a teacher, but he simply isn't outspoken enough. He doesn't get passionate about things during arguments and such. His opinion is always highly valued by his peers, but they simply do not go to him to solve their problems. He is too far on the fringes of what's going on to suddenly be thrust into the middle as a leader.
Anyone who can effortlessly keep 30 or so kids under control can lead. Kids don't like to take orders, especially if they don't know why those orders are being given. Adults are less that way.

No, he isn't outspoken, but you'll note that he's the one who has the last word in Molly and Sirius's arguement over whether Harry should get answers to his questions in OotP. You don't need to be outspoken to be in control.

Actually, as a spy and one of 2 people to be present at both the Ministry in OotP and Hogwarts in HBP (in both battles we've seen), he's right in the middle of it all even more than Snape.

Quote:
Moody would be better. Though he is regarded by his peers in the order as paranoid, so I simply cannot see him as being "elected" to the leader's position.

I can admit that McGonagall probably wouldn't be "elected" as a leader as well, for her lack of experience (though I say the army analogy was pretty meaningless, as the order is a small tactical group as opposed to a large body of soldiers) though I stand by my claim that if given the choice myself, I would choose McGonagall.
Exactly. Moody's too paranoid to work with everyone effectively -coughDungcough- and McGonagall's inexperienced and too busy. That leaves Lupin.

And even in a small group, who do you go to when you're unsure what to do in a situation? The person who's experienced whatever it is before. SO who ends up leading? That person, since he is experienced and therefore knows what works (and doesn't work) when handling a situation. (Which, by the way, is why the General is usually one of the most experienced people in the army.)


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  #96  
Old July 31st, 2006, 3:19 am
LadyFal  Female.gif LadyFal is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgoRetla
But I still have to come back to harry. Not as a day-to-day supervisor, but in providing leadership and direction. After all, Dumbledore was out on the road looking for Horcruxes, he wasn't doing those things.

As well, the adults are already following Harry's direction. Arthur Weasley searched the Malfoy house simply at Harry's suggestion. That's the kind of leadership that Harry would provide. After all, the Order's role will really be to support his efforts, and not merely in finding Horcruxes. There is far more to his mission than that.

They also know--whether they actually know--that Harry is the Chosen One. They, if anyone can, can see the connection between Harry and Dumbledore. If Scrimgeour knew about those private lessons, those trips, can the Order, via McGonagall, Snape and Flitwick, be completely blind? Whether they know the details at all, they will know that Harry must be supported at all costs.

And since Harry is the only one that knows the details, that makes him the de facto 'leader" of the Order of the Phoenix.

Gee, this is going to end up on the bottom of the page, isn't it?
These are points I tried to make at one time. They didn't go over well, most can't get beyond Harry's age and the fact that, yes he does have the Horcrux hunt ahead of him. But you made a much clearer argument showing that Harry has to an extent already had some of his requests carried out by adult members of The Order.


  #97  
Old July 31st, 2006, 3:38 am
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

I think the new leader of the Order will not be McGonagall. She will have too much on her hands with being the headmistress, assuming she is going to be the headmistress, of Hogwarts. I think it could be Molly or Lupin, since neither of them a true jobs.

I think Lupin has a greater chance of becoming the leader, because there is little to no chance that he will be excepted into the wizarding community for a job because of his "condition". So I think it would make more sense for him to become the Leader than Molly.


  #98  
Old August 1st, 2006, 12:31 am
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

I don't think anyone will lead out for awhile. There will be some re-grouping. Lupin has too many physical difficulties to deal with and Moody is too quirky. Molly is too emotional but Aurthur would do a good job. I think, however, that after things settledown it will be McGonnagal who assumes leadership. She has been around Hogwarts for a very long time and it won't be that difficult becoming head mistress for someone as capable as her.

It won't happen right away, but I do think Minerva will take over eventually.


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  #99  
Old August 1st, 2006, 12:50 am
valhalla valhalla is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

it's funny, every year you hear Dumbledore say at the beginning of the school year: let the feast begin. but since he has died. i think in book 7 the order of the phoenix will hear: let the war begin.


  #100  
Old August 2nd, 2006, 1:45 am
MaireJay  Female.gif MaireJay is offline
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Re: New Leader of the Order of Phoenix? v2

hmmm. McGonagal, Lupin, or um maybe Moody. i dnno. its to hard to tell. maybe theyll just do like, a time thing. delegate responsabilities and so forth


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