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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6



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  #501  
Old April 1st, 2012, 1:31 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Merrylore View Post
IMHO, the very fact that Snape even used "half-blood" in his nickname suggests to me - and i think Harry as well -that the person who would select such a name isn't a Pure Blood Supremacist, because he'd not want that label to refer to himself.
I believe that he used Half-Blood in its capacity as "better" than Muggleborn rather than as "lesser" than pureblood. Since he wasn't a pureblood, he couldn't very well name himself the 'Pureblood Prince', could he? IMO, he prided himself on whatever amount of magical blood he had. We see that even the ultimate blood supremacist, Voldemort, acknowledges his half-blood status when marking Harry rather than Neville as his equal. Therefore, acknowledging your half-blood status is not a sign of not believing in blood supremacy, IMO.

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Could you please show me where in canon it says that Snape hates his father and is ashamed of his muggle origins? We do see his father yelling at his mother, and his mother appears to be afraid, but isn't it also possible that he doesn't respect his mother for never standing up to Tobias? I also see Severus as having been neglected to an extent, based on his mismatched clothes. This could also perhaps be due to indifference on Eileen's part, or maybe her focus was elsewhere. Neither strike me personally as particularly good parents.
It's not stated explicitly that he hates his dad and is ashamed of him but that's the impression I got from his attitude in TPT. I'm sorry, I should have added an "IMO". I agree with you that he probably didn't hold any great love for either of his parents in their capacity as his parents. However, he was proud of the magical blood that his mother passed on and, by extension, his maternal bloodline.

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IMHO, Severus would have dropped Lily the very moment they entered Hogwarts if he had an issue with her muggleborn background. He had been sorted into Slytherin, and the first person who greeted him when he was sorted into the house was Prefect Lucius Malfoy. Instead, Severus chose to call Lily his best friend, despite the opinions of some of the students in his own house. I can't see someone who believed in Pure Blood Supremacy doing that.
I think everyone has agreed by now that Lily was Snape's exception, not the rule. He met Lily at a time when he was lonely and very emotionally vulnerable. To him, she was the only bright thing in his life at that point. He looked upon her as a heaven-sent entity more than as a human girl, which is why he allowed Lily's blood status to go ignored. By teaching her about the wizarding world, he could bring some amount of control and power to his life (I don't mean this in a sinister way; it's simple human psychology). This deep attachment to Lily was formed before he met his Slytherin friends. Therefore, it stood the test of time. And, it is this which is his ultimate redeeming quality, IMO.

As for calling her his best friend...I somehow doubt it was a publicly acknowledged fact like James-Sirius and Harry-Ron were. His statement in TPT about them being best friends felt more like he was seeking reassurance from her because, inside, he could already feel her drifting away.


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  #502  
Old April 1st, 2012, 1:58 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
I believe that he used Half-Blood in its capacity as "better" than Muggleborn rather than as "lesser" than pureblood. Since he wasn't a pureblood, he couldn't very well name himself the 'Pureblood Prince', could he?
No, but he could have called himself "The Prince" or "Partly Princely." If he were embarrassed about his muggleborn half, i don't believe he would have mentioned "half-blood" whatsoever. He would have simply nick named himself something else, IMHO.

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We see that even the ultimate blood supremacist, Voldemort, acknowledges his half-blood status when marking Harry rather than Neville as his equal. Therefore, acknowledging your half-blood status is not a sign of not believing in blood supremacy, IMO.
I'm not aware that Voldemort ever openly acknowledged his half-blood status.

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However, he was proud of the magical blood that his mother passed on and, by extension, his maternal bloodline.
I agree that he was very proud to be a wizard, and proud of his abilities.

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I think everyone has agreed by now that Lily was Snape's exception, not the rule. He met Lily at a time when he was lonely and very emotionally vulnerable. To him, she was the only bright thing in his life at that point. He looked upon her as a heaven-sent entity more than as a human girl, which is why he allowed Lily's blood status to go ignored. By teaching her about the wizarding world, he could bring some amount of control and power to his life (I don't mean this in a sinister way; it's simple human psychology). This deep attachment to Lily was formed before he met his Slytherin friends. Therefore, it stood the test of time. And, it is this which is his ultimate redeeming quality, IMO.

I'm sorry - "everyone" agrees? I think Snape joined the DEs, not because of his belief in blood supremacy, but because he felt powerless most of his life and was looking for a group which appeared to respect him, and offered him a place in their world and a way to have some feelings of power. He was also attracted to the Dark Arts, and they offered that as well. Once Lily ended their friendship, i think he turned a blind eye to their attitudes towards muggle borns until Lily was targeted.

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As for calling her his best friend...I somehow doubt it was a publicly acknowledged fact like James-Sirius and Harry-Ron were. His statement in TPT about them being best friends felt more like he was seeking reassurance from her because, inside, he could already feel her drifting away.
I do see it as being publicly acknowledged. Lily doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would hide their friendship, and Severus did remain at the common room door after SWM and refused to leave until he spoke to her, which was a very public display, i think. During SWM, James appeared to know the two of them were friends. It doesn't seem to have been a secret, IMHO.


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  #503  
Old April 1st, 2012, 3:35 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Merrylore View Post
I'm not aware that Voldemort ever openly acknowledged his half-blood status.
The first thing he spoke about after being "reincarnated" in GoF was his Muggle father. But, yes, I suppose he didn't gush on about it daily. However, neither did Snape. HBP was not a commonly known nickname schoolwide as Lupin didn't seem to know anything about it.

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I'm sorry - "everyone" agrees?
I didn't say everyone agrees that Snape is a blood supremacist. I simply meant that it is a widely agreed upon fact that Lily was the exception while he held other Muggles and Muggleborns in contempt or indifference - meaning, he doesn't care about/actively supports the maltreatment of other Muggleborns and Muggles, as long as it's not Lily. This, I think, can be evidenced by his behavior toward Mary MacDonald and Petunia, respectively. Therefore, my point here was that using his friendship with Lily as evidence that he wasn't a blood supremacist, isn't valid IMO.

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I think Snape joined the DEs, not because of his belief in blood supremacy, but because he felt powerless most of his life and was looking for a group which appeared to respect him, and offered him a place in their world and a way to have some feelings of power. He was also attracted to the Dark Arts, and they offered that as well.
If he had such a need for power and respect, he could easily have gained all that by joining the Order. As for his interest in the Dark Arts...a purely academic interest is one thing and actually practicing it is another. I think a lot of motive and will is needed to traverse from the first to the latter. Plus, the Order members seem to have good knowledge of the Dark Arts too. In order to fight them, they must have studied them. They just didn't use the Dark Arts. If Snape's motives for joining the DEs was simply because of his need for power and knowledge of the Dark Arts, I think the Order would have been a good bargain too. Therefore, while I agree that some of it was to do with the reasons you stated, I do think a contempt towards Muggles and Muggleborns was a factor too. Of course, by this, I am not saying he was as fundamental as Voldy or Belltrix.

Quote:
I do see it as being publicly acknowledged. Lily doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would hide their friendship, and Severus did remain at the common room door after SWM and refused to leave until he spoke to her, which was a very public display, i think. During SWM, James appeared to know the two of them were friends. It doesn't seem to have been a secret, IMHO.
We're talking about them being best friends here, not just friends. Perhaps people knew that they knew each other and hung out sometimes, but it didn't strike me as at the James-Sirius/Harry-Ron "best friend" level.


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  #504  
Old April 1st, 2012, 7:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
I didn't say everyone agrees that Snape is a blood supremacist. I simply meant that it is a widely agreed upon fact that Lily was the exception while he held other Muggles and Muggleborns in contempt or indifference - meaning, he doesn't care about/actively supports the maltreatment of other Muggleborns and Muggles, as long as it's not Lily. This, I think, can be evidenced by his behavior toward Mary MacDonald and Petunia, respectively. Therefore, my point here was that using his friendship with Lily as evidence that he wasn't a blood supremacist, isn't valid IMO.
What exactly was Severus's behavior towards Mary MacDonald? All I can recall was his remark that whatever happened to her was a laugh (and we don't know otherwise) and wasn't any worse than what Potter and his gang were up to.


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  #505  
Old April 1st, 2012, 9:10 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Reminder, y'all! If there's one thing we should all agree upon is that we shouldn't make assumptions about what is widely agreed upon. Please present your opinions as such etc etc.


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  #506  
Old April 1st, 2012, 12:55 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
The first thing he spoke about after being "reincarnated" in GoF was his Muggle father. But, yes, I suppose he didn't gush on about it daily.However, neither did Snape. HBP was not a commonly known nickname schoolwide as Lupin didn't seem to know anything about it.
Only two people heard his call Tom is "muggle father" - Harry and Wormtail. He planned to kill Harry once he summoned his DE's. Wormtail wouldn't dare discuss it, I don't think. Plus, he had absolute contempt for for his father, to the point where he changed his name. Personally, i don't see this being a topic of conversation people would be having with Voldemort if they wanted to continue to live. Snape, on the other hand, when he chose his own nickname, acknowledged his muggle heritage. I don't think it matters whether or nor Snape's nickname were widely known - it's how he saw himself, and a sign he felt comfortable with it or he would not have used it, IMHO. He would have called himself something else.

Quote:
I didn't say everyone agrees that Snape is a blood supremacist. I simply meant that it is a widely agreed upon fact that Lily was the exception while he held other Muggles and Muggleborns in contempt or indifference - meaning, he doesn't care about/actively supports the maltreatment of other Muggleborns and Muggles, as long as it's not Lily. This, I think, can be evidenced by his behavior toward Mary MacDonald and Petunia, respectively. Therefore, my point here was that using his friendship with Lily as evidence that he wasn't a blood supremacist, isn't valid IMO.
We only know 3 things about Mary MacDonald:
1) Mulciber hexed her. We don't know why.
2) She was a Gryffindor
3) She told Lily Severus was waiting for Lily outside the common room door

IMHO, this tells us nothing about Snape's opinion about blood status. And I agree - he didn't like Petunia. Petunia didn't appear to like magic whatsoever, while Severus did.

Quote:
If he had such a need for power and respect, he could easily have gained all that by joining the Order.
The Order? He would have seen that as a path to having respect? I'm sorry - I think he would have held the exact opposite opinion. To Severus, at the time, The Order would have been represented by people he did not get along with.

Quote:
We're talking about them being best friends here, not just friends. Perhaps people knew that they knew each other and hung out sometimes, but it didn't strike me as at the James-Sirius/Harry-Ron "best friend" level.
Lily acknowledged they were "best friends." Severus seemed to believe they were, and it appears to me that the subject had been brought up before, and the reason Severus brings it up again is because he senses Lily moving away from him and their friendship.


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  #507  
Old April 1st, 2012, 2:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
I believe that he used Half-Blood in its capacity as "better" than Muggleborn rather than as "lesser" than pureblood. Since he wasn't a pureblood, he couldn't very well name himself the 'Pureblood Prince', could he? IMO, he prided himself on whatever amount of magical blood he had. We see that even the ultimate blood supremacist, Voldemort, acknowledges his half-blood status when marking Harry rather than Neville as his equal. Therefore, acknowledging your half-blood status is not a sign of not believing in blood supremacy, IMO.
I find the name "Half-Blood Prince" rather ironic. Harry thinks Snape is trying to be just like Voldemort, but then it turns out that Snape was actually writing down his blood-status, which was risky for a Slytherin, and Prince was his mother's name, which I believe is sentimental instead of merely magical. JMO

I think what's important in terms of the story is that Harry, Snape, Dumbledore, and Tom Riddle are all Half-Bloods. They each have to deal with it in their own ways, but Tom Riddle is the only one who completely denounces his Muggle side. Voldemort only hangs around the Riddle house because it's near the graveyard where he wants to lure Harry. Snape kept his father's name as well as his father's house.

In OotP during the Ministry battle, Bellatrix calls Harry a "filthy Half-Blood," and is apparently shocked when he tells her that Voldemort is also a Half-Blood. I took her attitude towards Half-Blood status as the general Pureblood view, since that is what she represents almost more than any other character. She shows just as much contempt for Snape in HBP and it's clear she doesn't trust him. JMO


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  #508  
Old April 1st, 2012, 3:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

As to his treatment of Petunia, it was the same way she treated him, making disparaging remarks about his clothes, where he lived, etc. Just sayin'.


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  #509  
Old April 1st, 2012, 3:46 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
What exactly was Severus's behavior towards Mary MacDonald? All I can recall was his remark that whatever happened to her was a laugh (and we don't know otherwise) and wasn't any worse than what Potter and his gang were up to.
So it comes down to what I said, doesn't it? That he either doesn't care about/actively supports (since we don't have the scene, we can't tell which) the mistreatment of Muggleborns as long as it's not Lily.

And we do know otherwise. Lily states that the episode had to do with using Dark Magic on Mary who was, presumably, a Muggleborn (otherwise I don't see why a group of budding DEs would victimize her).

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Originally Posted by Merrylore View Post
Only two people heard his call Tom is "muggle father" - Harry and Wormtail. He planned to kill Harry once he summoned his DE's. Wormtail wouldn't dare discuss it, I don't think. Plus, he had absolute contempt for for his father, to the point where he changed his name. Personally, i don't see this being a topic of conversation people would be having with Voldemort if they wanted to continue to live.
I've already stated that I don't think Snape was anywhere near as extreme as Voldemort. However, I do believe that Snape believed magical blood was superior to non-magical blood. The following excerpt is one example:

The Prince's Tale, DH“Tuney h–hates me. Because we saw that letter from Dumbledore.”
“So what?”
She threw him a look of deep dislike.
“So she’s my sister!”
“She’s only a—” He caught himself quickly; Lily, too busy trying to wipe her eyes without being noticed, did not hear him.

IMO, what he stopped himself from saying was that Petunia was "only a Muggle". This shows that even before he'd come under the influence of his Slytherin friends, he was set against non-magical blood. If his dislike of Petunia rose from any other reason, he could easily have stated so. However, he stops because he realizes that stating her Muggle heritage would be an insult to Lily too and would probably antagonize Lily (whom he had pacified previously by saying it didn't matter that she was a Muggleborn).

Quote:
The Order? He would have seen that as a path to having respect? I'm sorry - I think he would have held the exact opposite opinion. To Severus, at the time, The Order would have been represented by people he did not get along with.
James and Sirius weren't symbols of the Order. There are a lot more people in the Order whom Snape had never even met and who would probably have accorded him with respect had he joined their ranks. Besides, Snape probably didn't even know during their school years that that was what James and Sirius intended to do after graduation. IMO, if Snape truly believed that Muggles and Muggleborns weren't inferior to people with magical blood, he could have ignored these two people, joined the right side of the war and gained the respect and power he craved.

Quote:
Lily acknowledged they were "best friends." Severus seemed to believe they were, and it appears to me that the subject had been brought up before, and the reason Severus brings it up again is because he senses Lily moving away from him and their friendship.
To me, it felt like Snape was always the one with more invested in that friendship. Even before they started Hogwarts, the camaraderie between them appeared skewed to me. Snape is the one who smiles when Lily says his name, he's the one who fervently tries to pacify her fears (whereas we don't see such fervor when Lily tries to comfort Snape about his mom and dad), she's the one whose concentration drifts away from their conversation. To me, all these small things added up to the feeling that Snape held her more precious than she did him. That is not to say that she didn't love him as a friend, because even JKR says that she did and from her efforts to keep him on the good side, I believe so too. But, once they reached Hogwarts, I felt that she continued their friendship more because of the loyalty she felt toward him for being her first magical friend than because of any real chumminess between them. I say this because, based simply on their personalities, I don't see Lily being drawn toward Snape in the capacity of best friend.

As for her acknowledging him as her "best friend", honestly, what was she supposed to reply? "No, Sev, you're not my best friend, you're just one of my friends"? The only way you can get out of such a situation without hurting any feelings is by answering in the affirmative.

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I think what's important in terms of the story is that Harry, Snape, Dumbledore, and Tom Riddle are all Half-Bloods. They each have to deal with it in their own ways, but Tom Riddle is the only one who completely denounces his Muggle side. Voldemort only hangs around the Riddle house because it's near the graveyard where he wants to lure Harry. Snape kept his father's name as well as his father's house.

In OotP during the Ministry battle, Bellatrix calls Harry a "filthy Half-Blood," and is apparently shocked when he tells her that Voldemort is also a Half-Blood. I took her attitude towards Half-Blood status as the general Pureblood view, since that is what she represents almost more than any other character. She shows just as much contempt for Snape in HBP and it's clear she doesn't trust him. JMO
I agree that the journey of these half-bloods is important to the story. And, I've already established my belief that Snape wasn't as extreme as Voldemort or Bellatrix. I would say Snape falls between Voldemort and Harry in this comparison of half-bloods.


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  #510  
Old April 1st, 2012, 4:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
Lily states that the episode had to do with using Dark Magic on Mary who was, presumably, a Muggleborn (otherwise I don't see why a group of budding DEs would victimize her).
I don't believe we have enough information. Most of the people Severus had issues with did not appear to be muggleborn. Mulciber may have targeted her for being a Gryffindor, or they may have some sort of past history we aren't aware of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
I've already stated that I don't think Snape was anywhere near as extreme as Voldemort. However, I do believe that Snape believed magical blood was superior to non-magical blood. The following excerpt is one example:

The Prince's Tale, DH“Tuney h–hates me. Because we saw that letter from Dumbledore.”
“So what?”
She threw him a look of deep dislike.
“So she’s my sister!”
“She’s only a—” He caught himself quickly; Lily, too busy trying to wipe her eyes without being noticed, did not hear him.

IMO, what he stopped himself from saying was that Petunia was "only a Muggle". This shows that even before he'd come under the influence of his Slytherin friends, he was set against non-magical blood. If his dislike of Petunia rose from any other reason, he could easily have stated so. However, he stops because he realizes that stating her Muggle heritage would be an insult to Lily too and would probably antagonize Lily (whom he had pacified previously by saying it didn't matter that she was a Muggleborn).
Severus almost called Petunia a "Muggle" - which I think would have upset Lily because Petunia was her sister. I also believe most in the wizarding world saw themselves as superior to muggles. This does not mean that most saw themselves as superior to muggleborn wizards and witches.

Quote:
James and Sirius weren't symbols of the Order. There are a lot more people in the Order whom Snape had never even met and who would probably have accorded him with respect had he joined their ranks. Besides, Snape probably didn't even know during their school years that that was what James and Sirius intended to do after graduation. IMO, if Snape truly believed that Muggles and Muggleborns weren't inferior to people with magical blood, he could have ignored these two people, joined the right side of the war and gained the respect and power he craved.
Most of us judge organizations by people we know who identify with those organizations. Avery and Mulciber were identified as "budding Death Eaters" and I'd think people would see their behavior as examples of how DEs behave. I think it's fair to say that James and Sirius saw themselves as "budding Order members" and Severus would have associated the Order with them, and since he did not have a positive relationship with them he would have believed he would not have a positive influence on the Order. Instead, he chose people and groups who offered him the power and respect he wanted, and turned a blind eye to what those organizations represented, IMHO.

I don't usually consider JKR's chats and interviews as cannon, but since you mentioned her, I'd like to add what she said during a Bloombury Live Chat:

Quote:
Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.
IMHO, if Severus correctly saw the DEs as being blood supremacists, he would have understood Lily's aversion.

Quote:
To me, it felt like Snape was always the one with more invested in that friendship. Even before they started Hogwarts, the camaraderie between them appeared skewed to me. Snape is the one who smiles when Lily says his name, he's the one who fervently tries to pacify her fears (whereas we don't see such fervor when Lily tries to comfort Snape about his mom and dad), she's the one whose concentration drifts away from their conversation. To me, all these small things added up to the feeling that Snape held her more precious than she did him. That is not to say that she didn't love him as a friend, because even JKR says that she did and from her efforts to keep him on the good side, I believe so too. But, once they reached Hogwarts, I felt that she continued their friendship more because of the loyalty she felt toward him for being her first magical friend than because of any real chumminess between them. I say this because, based simply on their personalities, I don't see Lily being drawn toward Snape in the capacity of best friend.

As for her acknowledging him as her "best friend", honestly, what was she supposed to reply? "No, Sev, you're not my best friend, you're just one of my friends"? The only way you can get out of such a situation without hurting any feelings is by answering in the affirmative.
Ah, but JKR also says this, from the Bloombury Live Chat:

Quote:
Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape

J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.
The way I read this is that, had Severus given up Dark Magic, he could have been romantically involved with Lily. This sounds to me like Lily didn't spend time with Severus at Hogwarts to try to "keep him on the good side," and in fact they could have had something even more than the friendship they had.

Here's the link to the full Bloombury Live Chat:

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/...ury-chat.html/


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  #511  
Old April 1st, 2012, 5:28 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil
I say this because, based simply on their personalities, I don't see Lily being drawn toward Snape in the capacity of best friend.
I'm not sure if this is really the case. I think that close friendships can be built on all sorts of foundations, not just compatible personalities, but common interests and experiences. We skip over a great deal of the friendship between Severus and Lily, and consequently, we don't know what was really the keystone of the friendship-- it could be that in spite of their different personalities (and I would argue that young Sev has not nearly as abrasive a personality as his older counterpart) they shared so many days together having fun that each became an important part of the other's life.

What we do know is that Lily held onto his friendship for about 6 years, and by the end was still doing so in spite of all the complaints she lists during their break-up scene. She claims to have made excuses and turned a blind eye on his behavior, something I don't think most people would do for any ordinary friend. While I agree that he needed her more than she needed him, I think Lily did need him to some extent. She just happened to have more friends, connections, and opportunities, and so wasn't quite as needy as he was, IMO.


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  #512  
Old April 1st, 2012, 6:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Severus almost called Petunia a "Muggle" - which I think would have upset Lily because Petunia was her sister. I also believe most in the wizarding world saw themselves as superior to muggles. This does not mean that most saw themselves as superior to muggleborn wizards and witches.
There's a difference between viewing them as a blissfully ignorant lot and being antagonistic toward them. For instance, while the Weasleys have a slightly condescending attitude towards Muggles because of the first reason, I doubt they would ever tell Hermione not to care what her parents think of her because they are "only Muggles." In CoS, Mr. Weasley makes friends with Hermione's parents. In GoF, he actually shows respect towards the Durlseys and would have shown so toward any affection that might have been present between Harry and the Dursleys. In fact, he is shown to be angrily surprised at the lack of filial affection between them. This shows that he does not think being a Muggle renders your opinions and emotions valueless (as Snape seems to suggest in the excerpt from my previous post by (almost) stating that Petunia’s opinion of Lily isn’t of value because she is only a Muggle.)
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The way I read this is that, had Severus given up Dark Magic, he could have been romantically involved with Lily. This sounds to me like Lily didn't spend time with Severus at Hogwarts to try to "keep him on the good side," and in fact they could have had something even more than the friendship they had.
She states that she might have loved him romantically had he not been attracted to the Dark Arts, not that she would have. To me, JKR's trying to say that the first and most obvious obstacle to the potential development of their relationship was his Dark Arts-obsession and DE membership. They never crossed this obstacle so we never see any other obstacles. But I don’t want to turn this into a ‘Should-Lily-have-chosen-Snape’ discussion, so I won’t go further into that.
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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
What we do know is that Lily held onto his friendship for about 6 years, and by the end was still doing so in spite of all the complaints she lists during their break-up scene. She claims to have made excuses and turned a blind eye on his behavior, something I don't think most people would do for any ordinary friend.
Not for an ordinary friend, perhaps, but for an old friend I think she would have. I know I would. He was her first friend in this new magical world, the one who introduced her to it all – of course, she would have a deep feeling of loyalty and even a sort of indebtedness towards him, therefore making her cut him a lot of slack. However, had he not been her first friend in the wizarding world, I really don’t see this friendship taking place or even if it somehow does, I don’t see her working so hard to save it.


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  #513  
Old April 1st, 2012, 9:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
I believe that he used Half-Blood in its capacity as "better" than Muggleborn rather than as "lesser" than pureblood. Since he wasn't a pureblood, he couldn't very well name himself the 'Pureblood Prince', could he? IMO, he prided himself on whatever amount of magical blood he had. We see that even the ultimate blood supremacist, Voldemort, acknowledges his half-blood status when marking Harry rather than Neville as his equal. Therefore, acknowledging your half-blood status is not a sign of not believing in blood supremacy, IMO.
Sorry to drag up this issue again but I think the choice of calling himself the "Half-Blood Prince" was pretty masterful because its meaning is so ambiguous (as we are all proving by arguing over its meaning)

To Purebloods he's showing that he values magical blood by putting on display that he is a halfblood and not a muggleborn. Death Eaters seem particularly offended by Muggleborns, first of all, Pureblood traitors seconds of all and Half Bloods kind of fall in the middle as "half blood" itself if rather ambiguous (it means, basically, that you're not a pureblood, that somewhere in your lineage your blood has been "tainted")

To Muggleborns or anti-Pureblood-Ideologists (such as James who don't buy into the pureblood is best mantra) "Half Blood Prince" can be interpreted to mean that he is proud of the fact that he's not pureblood or that he has muggle or muggleborn blood in him. Lily, for instance, might have seen this nickname (if she knew about it) as Snape showing that he's willing to admit that he's not a pureblood or that he is in some way proud of his muggle/muggleborn blood.

Each side of the war, in other words, would interpret Snape's nickname in the way they want to interpret its meaning. Had he chosen a name like "The Mostly Muggle Prince" or the "Proudly Partly Pure Prince" it would have been much more difficult for him to defend this name against the side it offends. I think Snape, from a very early age, was taught to walk the fine line between pleasing his witch mother and his muggle father which ends up manifesting itself in his ambiguous nickname and his masterful ability to play both sides.


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  #514  
Old April 1st, 2012, 9:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I think Snape, from a very early age, was taught to walk the fine line between pleasing his witch mother and his muggle father which ends up manifesting itself in his ambiguous nickname and his masterful ability to play both sides.
Personally, i don't think Snape meant for the nickname to become public knowledge at all, and to him, it described who he was - a half-blood whose mom had a really cool maiden name.


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  #515  
Old April 1st, 2012, 9:39 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
There's a difference between viewing them as a blissfully ignorant lot and being antagonistic toward them. For instance, while the Weasleys have a slightly condescending attitude towards Muggles because of the first reason, I doubt they would ever tell Hermione not to care what her parents think of her because they are "only Muggles." In CoS, Mr. Weasley makes friends with Hermione's parents. In GoF, he actually shows respect towards the Durlseys and would have shown so toward any affection that might have been present between Harry and the Dursleys. In fact, he is shown to be angrily surprised at the lack of filial affection between them. This shows that he does not think being a Muggle renders your opinions and emotions valueless (as Snape seems to suggest in the excerpt from my previous post by (almost) stating that Petunia’s opinion of Lily isn’t of value because she is only a Muggle.)
We only see Severus reacting to Petunia and not antagonizing her. She insults him in the first memory and he retaliates. She spies on him and Lily in the second memory, and he retaliates (and, at his age, the falling of the limb was most assuredly accidental magic, and, IMO, he lied because he didn’t want Lily to think he’d had anything to do with it because he was afraid she’d do exactly what she did, stick her nose in the air an stalk off, which seemed to be her favorite way of dismissing him). In the train station memory Petunia had called both Severus and Lily “freaks” and, I believe he is trying to lessen the hurtful impact that has on Lily by pointing out that it’s “only” a Muggle opinion. He knows his father's opinion of magic and dismisses it because he's just a Muggle and can't grasp the importance of having magical powers.

Growing up as a magical child in a Muggle world Severus may have soothed his own hurt feelings by telling himself that "they're only Muggles" when he was picked on by the Muggle children. Since we see how Harry was picked on by Dudley and his friends and by his other schoolmates, I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume that Severus had the same type of childhood growing up in a Muggle neighborhood.

Other than these scenes, we do not see any interaction between Severus and Muggles, so we really have no way to determine that he was “antagonistic” towards them or had any personal hatred toward them. And, it was Petunia’s opinion of them being “freaks” that Severus was dismissing, not Lily’s parents’, who were extremely proud of her being a witch.

In the “The Boy Who Lived,” Professor Minerva McGonagall uses terms like “…even the Muggles have noticed something’s going on,” and “Well, they’re not completely stupid,” to describe Muggles, which doesn’t exhibit a glowing opinion of them from someone who is considered a positive character in the books. So, a feeling of superiority over Muggles does seem to pretty much permeate the entire Wizarding World, and Severus is not the only one who seems to feel that way.

Quote:
Not for an ordinary friend, perhaps, but for an old friend I think she would have. I know I would. He was her first friend in this new magical world, the one who introduced her to it all – of course, she would have a deep feeling of loyalty and even a sort of indebtedness towards him, therefore making her cut him a lot of slack. However, had he not been her first friend in the wizarding world, I really don’t see this friendship taking place or even if it somehow does, I don’t see her working so hard to save it.
Maybe Lily might have eventually developed "romantic" feelings for Severus if the Dark Arts hadn't come between them, but I have always thought that Lily’s interest in Severus’ friendship was based mainly on her curiosity of and need for an explanation of her magical powers, and for an introduction into the Wizarding World. I think she began to lose interest in that friendship and didn’t know how to politely get out of it once she became established at Hogwarts. I think Severus considered Lily his “best friend,” after all, she was his only real friend. But, I’ve never thought that Lily considered him her “best friend” once she didn’t need him anymore – which I’d say started to happened sometime during her Fourth Year. Around that time and going into their Fifth Year (we’re not given an exact timeline in the memory) Severus senses her pulling away from him and asks if they’re still “best friends,” and she reassures him that they are.

As for Severus “use” of the Dark Arts, we never see him using them, even though he studied them. He did not perform whatever hex was put on Mary Macdonald, and, other than Lily’s statement (which we’re never told whether this was first hand knowledge or not), we are never told for sure it was Dark Magic.

And, Severus join the Order? The original Order seems to have been made up mainly of Gryffindors. It’s never pointed out that any other Houses are represented in that group. Did they invite anyone outside of Gryffindor House to join? Would they have let Severus in if he’d shown a desire to join? And, finally, with the group which had caused him so much misery during his school years, would he have wanted to join, even if he and Lily had remained friends and SWM hadn’t happened?


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  #516  
Old April 1st, 2012, 11:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
And, Severus join the Order? The original Order seems to have been made up mainly of Gryffindors. It’s never pointed out that any other Houses are represented in that group. Did they invite anyone outside of Gryffindor House to join? Would they have let Severus in if he’d shown a desire to join? And, finally, with the group which had caused him so much misery during his school years, would he have wanted to join, even if he and Lily had remained friends and SWM hadn’t happened?
I think joining the Order would never have been a possibility. There isn't a single Slytherin in the Order that we know about until after Snape joins.

You would think Dumbledore would have tried to recruit some Slytherins, and I guess he did with Slughorn. Both Dumbledore and Slughorn together probably could have convinced Snape to join the Order, but Slughorn was too scared of Tom Riddle by that point and wimped out.

Any way you look at it, Snape was blocked from joining the Order. The only way he could do it during the first war was as an undercover spy. The only reason he was trusted the second time was because Dumbledore vouched for him, and by then he had been teaching for years as well.


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  #517  
Old April 2nd, 2012, 2:18 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
As for Severus “use” of the Dark Arts, we never see him using them, even though he studied them. He did not perform whatever hex was put on Mary Macdonald, and, other than Lily’s statement (which we’re never told whether this was first hand knowledge or not), we are never told for sure it was Dark Magic.
IMO it could even have been something from Zonko's. After all, some of the twins' tricks were pretty dodgy and are only funny because they're popular Gryffs. [IMO]

Quote:
And, Severus join the Order? The original Order seems to have been made up mainly of Gryffindors. It’s never pointed out that any other Houses are represented in that group. Did they invite anyone outside of Gryffindor House to join? Would they have let Severus in if he’d shown a desire to join? And, finally, with the group which had caused him so much misery during his school years, would he have wanted to join, even if he and Lily had remained friends and SWM hadn’t happened?
And the man who's the leader of the Order apparently didn't care enough about him to punish the student who set him up to be bitten by a werewolf. Yeah, Severus was really going to want to join THAT group. Just my opinion, of course.


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  #518  
Old April 2nd, 2012, 4:25 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Personally, i don't think Snape meant for the nickname to become public knowledge at all, and to him, it described who he was - a half-blood whose mom had a really cool maiden name.
I can see that, but at the same time if anyone did find out about the nickname he could still defend it in whatever way would best placate the one asking him about it.

Also, if he wrote it in one of his textbooks how private was he really keeping it? He didn't seem to keep a very close eye on the book since he left it behind for anyone to find.


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  #519  
Old April 2nd, 2012, 6:07 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Also, if he wrote it in one of his textbooks how private was he really keeping it? He didn't seem to keep a very close eye on the book since he left it behind for anyone to find.
But, if no one knew it was Severus' nickname they wouldn't have known it was his book, anyway. There was nothing in it identifying him as the owner or Harry...or Hermione, especially...would have picked up on it.

I think it was kind of his little joke to himself. Having lived in the Muggle world he would have been aware of royalty (since there didn't seem to be any kings, queens, or princes in the Wizarding World, just a self-proclaimed "Lord"). So, I think he used the play on words, his mother's maiden name and his blood status, to create a name that made him someone a bit special, a Prince...a half-blood Prince. Someone unique and known only to him.


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  #520  
Old April 2nd, 2012, 10:49 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

I'd like to see more shades of grey in future posts.


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