Boardwalk Empire

[MasterOfDeath]

I really can't believe there isn't already a thread for this show. This show really doesn't get enough press. This is easily my favorite show of all time. I'm not even really a TV person but this show gripped me since the first episode and it's only gotten better. I'm a big fan. Hopefully there are more fans on COS that will come out now.

This thread is intended for discussion and debate on the critically acclaimed third highest rated HBO Show Boardwalk Empire which has completed two seasons with season 3 coming out this Fall.

If you're going to bring up spoilers, please use spoiler tags. Many people have not watched this show yet and I wouldn't want to spoil them.

So are there any other Boardwalk Empire fans on COS?

Here are some discussion questions to get things moving:

1. What is your general impression of the show and how much of it have you seen?

2. Do you have a favorite episode/season? (or if you can't remember episodes, favorite scene)

3. Who is your favorite character and why?

4. Who is your least favorite character and why?

5. What do you think about Nucky Thompson? Is he grey or completely dark?

6. Do you think there is a "good" character(s) on the show?

7. Do you have any problems with the show?

8. What do you think about the 20's music?

9. How would you rate the production design?

10. Which plots are you most interested in?

[alwaysme]

Best gangster drama around. Absolutely love the show. Looking forward to season 3. Should be starting back up in September. Not really in the mood to answer all the questions lol. My favorite character is Nucky. I think Steve Buscemi is a fabulous actor. Van Alden is a close second. Michael Shannon's portrayal is so creepy.

[SnapesBane]

It should be noted that this show would not be where it is without The Sopranos. I saw the pilot and enjoyed it quite a bit, bu that was likely because of Scorsese's involvement. I haven't gotten around to viewing the rest of the series, though.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by alwaysme

Best gangster drama around. Absolutely love the show. Looking forward to season 3. Should be starting back up in September. Not really in the mood to answer all the questions lol. My favorite character is Nucky. I think Steve Buscemi is a fabulous actor. Van Alden is a close second. Michael Shannon's portrayal is so creepy.

I agree! It's one of the best shows around, period IMO. It's not a typical gangster show, it's more historical and political and deals with many other things as well. Social issues, sexism, racism, psychology, etc. Few movies and almost no shows have ever explored this era in-depth. I love how it seamlessly blends fiction with history. Everything about the show is first-class. From the acting to the scripting to the production design to the music. It's a must-see show for everyone.

Nucky is definitely one of my favorite characters as well. You never know with him. He pulls you in and seems like a nice guy..but then you begin to doubt and pull back...only to reconsider once again and get pulled right back in. He keeps you on your feet. Definitely not an obvious villain for me. Very complex character. A grey character who gets darker as the show unfolds but always very charming and likeable. Steve Beushemi's performance is so layered and so real and so complicated yet so consistent and believable. He deserved to win the Grammy for best actor.

Van Alden is another interesting character, I agree. Micheal Shannon does such a good job. It's a very fine line to walk. The character would easily slip into being cartoonish but he JUST touches upon that without going fully into it. Especially as the series unfolds, he becomes complex enough to be a psychological plausible and realistic character and not just a caricature. Always kinda creepy though but you begin to see why he is who he is near the end of season 2.

Don't worry about the questions. I put them there in-case people needed something to get the discussion going.

It should be noted that this show would not be where it is without The Sopranos. I saw the pilot and enjoyed it quite a bit, bu that was likely because of Scorsese's involvement. I haven't gotten around to viewing the rest of the series, though.

I think every show on HBO deserves it's existence to Sopranos. There's no doubt it was a successful and very influential show. One of the writers, Terrence Winter is the one who created the show Boardwalk Empire based on Nelson Johnson's fantastic non-fiction book about the history of Atlantic City (that I recommend to all BE fans) and they use many of the actors.

With that said, I prefer Boardwalk Empire 100%. I find the characters more complex, the context more epic and interesting, the energy stronger and the themes more varied. It also explores many different character's perspectives and not just the main character's. Nucky is a much more complex and unique character than Tony Soprano and to me more memorable and interesting IMO. Take the pilot alone for example. Nucky has an innocent man murdered to use as a patsy. Absolutely horrible...but we can get behind it and don't mind because this guy was an abusive drunk who consistently beat on his wife and kids. Even beat his wife when she was pregnant. It allows there to be more layers and almost every action in BE has two sides to it. It's still wrong but you can root for it as well on some level.


Boardwalk Empire is also more historical, political and IMO deeper. I recommend you watch the rest of the show. The pilot was amazing but the rest of the show gets even deeper into the characters and situations. The pilot was more of a movie (and a quality one at that).

[halfbreedlover]

I am also a great BE fan. From the very first episode, I found myself pulled into the world of 1920s gangsters and the golden age of Atlantic City. The series covers a world that is long gone, and yet one we can still relate to. To me, that is what sets it apart from The Sopranos- that element of escapism, because BE takes place in a world very different from ours and fully immerses you in it. That might be a shallow reason to like a series, but I can't help it. I really found myself forgetting where I was or what time it was when watching BE- that doesn't happen very often for me, and for me that is the mark of quality.

As MasterOfDeath said, the characters are complex. You can spend hours and hours arguing about their motives and futures.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by halfbreedlover

I am also a great BE fan. From the very first episode, I found myself pulled into the world of 1920s gangsters and the golden age of Atlantic City. The series covers a world that is long gone, and yet one we can still relate to. To me, that is what sets it apart from The Sopranos- that element of escapism, because BE takes place in a world very different from ours and fully immerses you in it. That might be a shallow reason to like a series, but I can't help it. I really found myself forgetting where I was or what time it was when watching BE- that doesn't happen very often for me, and for me that is the mark of quality.

As MasterOfDeath said, the characters are complex. You can spend hours and hours arguing about their motives and futures.

I agree. I tried to watch The Sopranos, but I just couldn't get into it - too much spoonfeeding with the story points so there really wasn't any mystery to it. I prefer stories that make you think about what's going on instead of telling you everything. I like a good puzzle to figure out. That's where Boardwalk Empire stands out in the "gangster" genre I think. There is a lot of complexity to the story and they don't just tell you what's going on so there's some mystery to it as well.

I also like the historical aspect of the show and I think it really presents a good picture of what it would have been like to live in that era. They use fictional elements mixed in with historical events and I think that helps the viewer become immersed in that world. I love that they're showing how Prohibition really caused more problems than it solved.

I've watched the first two seasons and I don't really have a favorite character overall - I enjoy how the characters interact with each other and how all those connections play out and impact the overall story. The biggest flaw with the show at this point is that there are too many characters being focused on and that detracts from the whole to a certain extent. I think the Chicago and New York story lines could have been dropped - I found myself losing interest in all of that because there was just too much going on. Making those characters tertiary and focusing only on how they connected to Nucky would have been a better choice I think.

Still, it's a great show and I think there is a lot of potential for it to get better as they go on.

[SnapesBane]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I agree. I tried to watch The Sopranos, but I just couldn't get into it - too much spoonfeeding with the story points so there really wasn't any mystery to it.

Can you give edxamples and how many episodes did you watch? I see a lot of blanket statements about The Sopranos when very few episodes have been wtched.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by SnapesBane

Can you give edxamples and how many episodes did you watch? I see a lot of blanket statements about The Sopranos when very few episodes have been wtched.

I think she means spoonfed in the sense that Tony talks to his therapist and tells her and the audience exactly and everything he is thinking and feeling and the therapist pieces the hints and clues together herself and basically tells the audience his psychological problems while with BE, there is just as much psychological depth but it's not completely spelled out for the audience. The viewer is left to piece it together and figure it out and analyze it themselves. BE also explores a whole range of psychological issues. From child abuse to war time PTSD to the effects of child molestation, to rape victim mentality to exploring sociopaths and psychopathy but it's never blatantly told to the audience, it's realistically presented.

But this is the Boardwalk Empire thread. I agree Halfbreedlover and Meesha1971, the show is very immersive. It's a fantasy without being one. As you said, Halfbreedlover, it's another world but one that really happened, just one that few people still alive today can remember. This show got me into 1900's and 20's music even! It's one of the most comprehensive and effective look backs at this era. As with the movie Titanic (1997), the fictional drama element helps you become more intimate with the historical context and events. It's not a documentary but it's the most realistic form of fiction you're gonna get. It really does feel epic and operatic and very exciting. It's also educational. I learned so many historical facts from watching this show.

I can understand the problem you have, Meesha, about there being too many characters. On first viewing it is a little overwhelming and might be one of the reasons why this show didn't catch on with that many people. There's just too much going on but that just makes it so re-watchable to me. I don't agree they should cut down the Chicago and New York stories. I love those stories and the characters there. Al Capone is amazing in this show, very brutal and thuggish and exciting to watch but with a lot of depth as well, specifically related to his maturation and his relationship to his deaf son. I also enjoy Arnold Rosthien. So cold and menacing. Polite and nice and proper but yet deadly and calculating. Fantastic performance. Lucky Luciano as a young man is hot-headed and impulsive and a little bumbling but I like that. It shows the gangsters when they were just beginning and learning and makes them more assessable. It's going to be rewarding to see them grow into the crime legends they became.

I'll throw a discussion question out there. What do you all think of Nucky? Complete villain or an exercise in grey morality?

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

But this is the Boardwalk Empire thread. I agree Halfbreedlover and Meesha1971, the show is very immersive. It's a fantasy without being one. As you said, Halfbreedlover, it's another world but one that really happened, just one that few people still alive today can remember. This show got me into 1900's and 20's music even! It's one of the most comprehensive and effective look backs at this era. As with the movie Titanic (1997), the fictional drama element helps you become more intimate with the historical context and events. It's not a documentary but it's the most realistic form of fiction you're gonna get. It really does feel epic and operatic and very exciting. It's also educational. I learned so many historical facts from watching this show.

I think the historical element makes it more fascinating because a lot of these things actually happened. It's interesting to get an idea of what it might have been like to live in that era.

I can understand the problem you have, Meesha, about there being too many characters. On first viewing it is a little overwhelming and might be one of the reasons why this show didn't catch on with that many people. There's just too much going on but that just makes it so re-watchable to me. I don't agree they should cut down the Chicago and New York stories. I love those stories and the characters there. Al Capone is amazing in this show, very brutal and thuggish and exciting to watch but with a lot of depth as well, specifically related to his maturation and his relationship to his deaf son. I also enjoy Arnold Rosthien. So cold and menacing. Polite and nice and proper but yet deadly and calculating. Fantastic performance. Lucky Luciano as a young man is hot-headed and impulsive and a little bumbling but I like that. It shows the gangsters when they were just beginning and learning and makes them more assessable. It's going to be rewarding to see them grow into the crime legends they became.

I generally don't re-watch TV series once I'm done - and on the rare occasions I have, it's been years later so that wouldn't change anything for me. It's a good show with an interesting story, but I think it would be better if they streamlined it more because a lot of people aren't going to re-watch it - and many won't stick with it because there's so much going on and it's difficult to keep up with it all. The characters in and of themselves would be interesting because of their history, but I think they get lost in the show because there's just so much going on all at once. I actually don't remember who Arnold Rosthien was now. Ultimately, I chose to focus on the main story with Nucky and Jimmy. Personal preference I guess.

I'll throw a discussion question out there. What do you all think of Nucky? Complete villain or an exercise in grey morality?

Nucky is intriguing, but I see him as mostly villain. He's very Machiavellian I think. Very good at manipulating people by telling them what they want to hear.

[MasterOfDeath]

Nucky Thomson truly is a complex character. He was born and raised in Atlantic City and was as much a product of the culture of corruption that surrounded the power structure of the town and permeated the city itself as Jimmy and his mother, Gillian were. He was a young ambitious man in a city with corrupt and illegal leanings. Nucky did not start or create the political machine that controlled Atlantic County but he was very good at running it and was a more effective leader of it then the man who did create it was, the Commodore. Nucky had such an innate knowledge and grasp on human nature and an understanding of how people's mind worked and he was able to use that insight to manipulate people into supporting him and like him and ensured their loyalty to him. Nucky inherited this system from the Commodore and sharped it and perfected and ran it more effectively but he didn't start it. He was abused by his father and through his influence was beaten by kids who had robbed his baseball mitt. This feeling of powerlessness through his youth would have instilled in him a real need and desire for power to compensate and make him feel secure and he was born into Atlantic City so through his father's brutality and the state of the city, Nucky was fine-tuned to become the man he does. He would want people to respect him and even love him because he had been so consistently humiliated, undermined and unfavored by his father who favored his brother over him. Looking for another father figure besides his own, Nucky would have turned to the Commodor who would have took him under his wing and groomed him to eventually be his successor. The Commodore does say Nucky was like a son to him and Nucky would want to appease him and do everything he could for him as he'd be so happy to have a father who saw potential in him and respected him, he'd even pimp a 13 year old girl he wanted out to him.

In episode 8 of season 2, we glimpse through Nucky's dreams what running and controlling the city represents to him and why it's so important to him. In the dream, he takes the elevator up to his office in the Ritz hotel where he lived and worked out of and people of the town are there expecting him and waiting on him for help and favors. This is symbolic of the city depending on him and him leading them and ruling the city. What's interesting is right next to these people on a chair, firmly placed as if a king on a throne is a baseball mitt. This symbolizes the mitt that was stolen from him by bullies and that he failed to get back after his father marched him down to them and they beat him up. By ruling the city and having all this power, to him it's essentially his way of getting back his baseball mitt, his pride and his respect and his dignity. He's "proving" to his father, to everyone and to himself that he is adequate and not someone who can be bullied anymore. By controlling all the territory of the city he's reclaiming the power denied to him when he was small and vulnerable and disadvantaged. By trying to have everything, by taking everything he wants, he's overcompensating for the times his father burned him with a hot poker when he dared to reach for the first slice of cake on his birthday.

In the dream, we hear a baby crying in the background and this I think represents his son who died. Nucky did not give his family the time and attention they deserved and needed because he was so focused on his ambition and need to run and control the city.

Nucky wouldn't be such an effective manipulator if he wasn't sensitive to some extent and knew human nature not just from an academic perspective but from a human experience one. To me, Nucky is a sensitive man who was hardened by the world (his father, being mentored and advised by the Commodore, his wife and son's untimely deaths) into this cold, distant manipulator who is able to use the very feelings he used to (or still feels) to understand the feelings of others and manipulate them to his own ends.

It's hard to define Nucky for me. On the one hand he's a deceptive, charming, duplicitous, Machiavellian villain and on the other hand, he's a fragile, sensitive, broken, miserable bullied little boy haplessly striving for the power and respect he never had.

He is a villain but one that is closer to grey for me personally. I do go back and forth though.

[alwaysme]

Nucky is a grey character for me too. I do think by the end of season 2 we do see a bit more of his villain side.

Although...

Spoiler: show

When he kills Jimmy I wasn't shocked. I was sad to see the character go but it was definitely a form of payback. Jimmy became very ruthless and had pretty much double crossed everyone.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by alwaysme

Nucky is a grey character for me too. I do think by the end of season 2 we do see a bit more of his villain side.

Although...

Spoiler: show

When he kills Jimmy I wasn't shocked. I was sad to see the character go but it was definitely a form of payback. Jimmy became very ruthless and had pretty much double crossed everyone.

Spoiler: show

At first, it's shocking but then if you think about it, Jimmy had betrayed Nucky several times right from episode 1 of season 1 where Jimmy intercepts a shipment Nucky sold to Rosthien and caused most of Nucky's problems in season 1 through that. Then he betrayed Nucky in season 2 and even tried to have him killed, walking up to him before the assassin came. Nucky looks conflicted to me about doing it but if he didn't, he'd look very weak in the gangster world and that isn't good.

[rogue_bludger]

hey peoples, just found this thread and was a bit surprised but am so glad theres others on here that follow and love the show, for me BE is the best show on tv out at the moment, the set production, the acting, the writing and direction are all top class, i came across this show just before season one aired through lookin at Martin scorsese' profile on wikipedia, and when i found out he was attached to direct the pilot then serve as a producer and it was going to be a period drama based on nucky Johnsons life during the prohibition era in Atlantic city (id previously never heard of nucky but a bit research told me this was gonna be interesting character) i was hooked straight away and couldnt wait for this show to start, ive had a long running interest or abit of an obsession you could say with organised crime in America, especially during the prohibition era also characters like Meyer lansky and lucky luciano for a while now and love anything to do with it, so when i heard my favourite director had his name attached to this prohibition era show which would feature people like al capone, Meyer lansky and lucky luciano as well as Arnold rothstein it was like a dream come true, ive followed the show since day one and have watched both seasons to date, the one thing i love is the political twist to it, this is not your averag gangster shoot em up show and nuckys not your average gangster, Steve buscemi is absolutely immense, id like to edit this post in time and answer the questions from the first post, i cant be bothered right now but i look forward to hearing others thoughts on the show and to seeing season 3

[MasterOfDeath]

Cool to see more fans on COS! Season 3 is only 3 days away...I can't believe it! I've been waiting a year for this!!

What do you guys hope to see in Season 3?

[alwaysme]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Cool to see more fans on COS! Season 3 is only 3 days away...I can't believe it! I've been waiting a year for this!!

What do you guys hope to see in Season 3?

I am excited. Tonight's the night!

Spoiler: show

First, I'd like to see how Nucky responds to Margaret over the land deal. I have a feeling her Catholic guilt combined with Nucky's illegal activities will come to head this season.

More Al Capone and his rise. Also interesting to see what's in store for Van Alden now that he is on the run.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by alwaysme

I am excited. Tonight's the night!

Spoiler: show

First, I'd like to see how Nucky responds to Margaret over the land deal. I have a feeling her Catholic guilt combined with Nucky's illegal activities will come to head this season.

More Al Capone and his rise. Also interesting to see what's in store for Van Alden now that he is on the run.

Tonight IS the night!!

Spoiler: show

Season 3 takes place a year and a half after the end of season 2 so it will be interesting how they will show or allude to Nucky's intiial reaction to Margaret selling his land to the church.

It's gonna be amazing to see Capone rise! This has to be the most comprehensive depiction of his rise ever in fiction!

[rogue_bludger]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Cool to see more fans on COS! Season 3 is only 3 days away...I can't believe it! I've been waiting a year for this!!

What do you guys hope to see in Season 3?

same here, been waiting a long time for this and its finally arrived, really enjoyed the first episode i think it answered some lingering questions and cant wait for next week now.

Spoiler: show

One of The main things i hope to see from this season is the development of lansky and Luciano and of capone, anyone who is familiar with these characters will know that these 3 went all the way to the top of the organised crime ladder. So im really looking forward to seeing there development not just in this season but the whole series.

Im particularly interested in capone this season because his power really started to grow around 1923, 1924. Weve already seen johny torrio leave him in charge in this first episode so looking forward to seein more of him this season. Im also glad to see dean o'banion introduced this season again anyone familiar will know his importance, capone and o banion were at war around 1923, 1924 in Chicago and am looking forward to see how that develops. I think they set the mood perfectly in the first episode with these two characters and this story should make for some great tv.

I was also hoping to see how nucky went about his business after last seasons finale and after the first episode i think we can see hes now a full time gangster and mob boss. Something i was hoping to see, i loved the political edge to the story in the first two seasons and the political side is still there obviously but i wanted it to go more street this season and it looks like thats what were gonna get.