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Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #1  
Old July 22nd, 2007, 9:29 pm
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Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

The relationship of Dumbledore and Grindelwald is intricately complex on multiple levels. It has now been revealed by Jo that Dumbledore did indeed love Grindelwald.

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?
Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?

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  #2  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:07 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

I really think Ariana's death was the only thing that stopped Dumbledore seeing through his plans with Grindelwald. It separated them physically and in Dumbledore's mind emotionally as they were to blame for his sister's death. Without that, I think Dumbledore would not have been the Dumbledore we knew.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 12:26 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
No, it would not have. Even if Ariana had not died, a duel still would have taken place among Albus, Aberforth, and Gellert. Grindelwald began to duel Aberforth because of his disagreement, and I do not think that Albus's desire to act "For the Greater Good" would have overpowered his love for his family. He still loved Aberforth and Ariana - he was simply bored with having to be the leader of the family. The duel, not Ariana's death, brought understanding to Albus about what he was doing and Grindelwald's true character.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
I would assume that Albus would have changed dramatically if his relationship with Grindelwald flourished. However, as I have already stated, I doubt the friendship would ever have lasted, even without the duel. Eventually Albus would realize Grindelwald's Dark intentions, and whatever Albus said about the Greater Good would not convince him to succumb to Dark magic.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
I think a combination of both. I think, as Albus stated, that Grindelwald had time to think of his actions in Nurmengard, and he felt guilty for what he did, remembering what Albus had become. This guilt was, therefore, tied to thoughts of Albus, and he knew that he still cared for him. However, I also believe that Grindelwald had no desire for the Elder wand to get in Voldemort's hands - whether because he did not want Voldemort to rise to power for his own, Good reasons, or whether he did not want another Dark wizard to challenge his name in history, I do not know.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 7:40 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

1)Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
Maybe but not for long due to Grindelwald's anti-Muggle views..

2) Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
Yes..he could have dabbled in the dark arts and participate in anti-Muggle activities

3) Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
i guess it is an act of friendship of his lost friend


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Old July 24th, 2007, 7:50 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?

I truly doubt it. It tore them apart and it made them go their seperate ways. Even if it didn't ruin their friendships, I truly believe that after Grindelwald would start putting his plans to action, Dumbledore would realize that he would not want to go through with helping him. I think he would feel too guilty and as if he wasn't doing the right thing.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?

Absolutely. He would not be the Dumbledore we know and love but much much worse. Perhaps as bad as Voldemort. If they went through with their plans, it would poison and de-humanize Dumbledore.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?

Both, I think. Obviously, after a long time to think about what he did, he felt remorse but it also had to do with the fact that he saw what a good man Dumledore became and it made him want to be a better person and a better friend.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 7:22 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

I have one question...

How was Dumbledore able to defeat Grindelwald even though he had The Elder Wand?


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Old July 24th, 2007, 7:35 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

First of all, I have to say this took me completely by suprise. There's no way I could have seen it coming.

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
No. Even before her death, Albus, Grindelwald, and Aberforth were already having a huge argument and duel. Even if it hadn't ended in Ariana's death, I feel like Albus would have realized that his total estrangement from his brother was not something he wanted.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
Definitely. You heard all the stuff, both from Aberforth and Rita Skeeter, about how they were planning all of this "For the Greater Good" of wizardkind. For one, I don't think that if Ariana hadn't died, he would have ever become the "champion of Mudbloods and commoners." He might have eventually realized what horrible things he was doing and broken off the friendship with Grindelwald, but I doubt he would have done a total 180 without his sister's death.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
I'm not sure. I want to say both, but we don't really know enough about Grindelwald's personality to know if he was actually a friend of Albus, or if he didn't feel any affection for the guy he had planned so much with, and the guy who had later brought him to his downfall.

However, something tells me that by the time Albus defeated him, Albus had been out of his company and among the real world long enough to learn compassion and sympathy, and it was for this reason that although he defeated his friend and took the Elder Wand, he didn't kill him, and didn't hand him over to the Ministry where he'd be locked up in Azkaban with a thousand dementors. Instead, he left him in his own prison, where he had fifty years to think about his misdeeds - with his power, and with his friends. I'd say both.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 9:41 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

I was surprised that there was a relationship between Grindy and DD prior to the duel. However, it explains a lot, especially why Dumbledore never went for the MoM post. It also explains why Grindy never went for Britain - he knew well DD's abilities, and didn't want to hasten the eventual battle.

I don't think the friendship would have survived even if DD's sister hadn't died. DD seemed to be idealistic in his writing, and as soon as he saw what Grindy wanted to do "for the greater good" he would have left. But the pursuit of the Hallows and other superiority things affected DD tremendously - he lived almost his entire life trying to "undo" the damage to himself he caused.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 9:53 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place? If the whole incident of that fateful day hadn't taken place then yes their friendship would have continued till the day when another similar incident took place. I mean their friendship would never have been a life long one because of the ambitions of Grindelwald.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
He would have been like his young self till the day he would be friends with Grindelwald, once their friendship would have severed (which would have happened if it hadn't happened that day).

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
It was more out of guilt.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 10:06 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

I actually loved the motif of this friendship. On the structural level, it is a very nice allusion to Philosopher's Stone, when we first find out about Dumbledore defeating Grindelwald. On the other nad, it does explain a lot about Dumbledore's attitude and his unceasing battle against the Dark Arts. He had not only idelological, but also personal reasons to fear and fight them, being once almost-tempted.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 10:11 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
Hmm…I’ll go with ‘no’ for now. I think (or hope) that Albus would have sensed the danger and the wrong in what he and Grindelwald were


Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
Oh yes. Had he not realised the wrong path they were headed down, I think Albus may have taken things too far.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
Probably more of guilt. I don’t think Grindelwald missed his old friend that much, considering he was so concerned with becoming Master of Death.


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Old July 26th, 2007, 9:51 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

You know what the weirdest thing is? I liked this dude from the moment he was introduced. Grindlewald was cool. But of course not his bad deeds. But in the end he was redeemed. Then again I like anti-heros in general.


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Old July 26th, 2007, 11:49 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
I think it just very well might have survived. I think they definitely would have been friends a lot longer than they were for those few months. I think that Ariana's death was a huge, brutal wake-up call for Dumbledore. He didn't want to see Grindelwald for what he really was. Ariana's death really forced him to open his eyes and accept what he saw. It's quite possible their friendship and Dumbledore's continued refusal to see Grindelwald for what he really was might have last a very, very long time had Ariana not been killed.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
Yes, I think he definitely would have. I would like to think that Dumbledore would have at least regretted or felt uneasy about the things he did toward the end of his life though.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
I really don't know. Grindelwald is still quite mysterious; we don't really know very much about his personality.


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Old July 26th, 2007, 11:59 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Quote:
Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
I don't think it was either. I think it was defiance of Voldemort himself, and didn't really have anything to do with Dumbledore or any sort of guilt feeling.

We really don't have much to go on, but Grindelwald seems like a very strong personality. The wand boosted his power. And the Elder wand attracts the sort of person who would kill to get that kind of power, and ultimately would do anything for power. I think he still saw the wand as his and didn't want to give it up to anyone, Voldemort especially.


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Old August 6th, 2007, 10:26 pm
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Grindelwald and Voldemort: Character comparisons

Lets compare the similarities and differences between Lord Voldemort and Gellert Grindelwald from the point they were young Hogwarts graduates to evil tyrants.

I think the main difference is that Grindelwald thought that what he was doing was good for wizard kind, for 'the greater good'. But with Riddle, by the time he had graduated from Hogwarts he was already killing and making Horcruxes. So, for Grindelwald, he was, in some twisted way, doing what he thought was better for wizard kind. Voldemort just wanted immortality.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 1:37 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
Maybe--I can actually see them being friends, although I would think they would not be close friends as the years went by. Remember, they had a lot in common--both intellligent, energetic, visionary men (albeit with a less-than-respectable vision, as it turned out), who wanted to make a name for themselves and improve the lot of magical people. Yes, Grindelwald was a bad guy, but that may have been blunted if he had maintained a friendship with Albus, so he may have ended up somewhat prejudiced, but not a truly dark wizard. Also remember, Albus had no real reason to like muggles when he was young, considering what "they" did to his sister--the muggle world and muggleborns are lucky that Albus didn't take that event and allow it to color his future impressions of muggles as cruel, abusive beasts who deserved what bad fortune they got. I can easily see a young Albus continuing to have cordial relations with Grindelwald over the years, not agreeing always, but not overtly antagonistic.
Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
Yes, as above, I imagine he would be a lot less tolerant of muggles and muggleborns, although his decades of experience would hopefully keep him decent. He would, I imagine, have been a lot more power-seeking if he had stayed in Grindelwald's camp over time.
Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
I suspect it's mainly remorse at what he'd done, so I guess I'm going with the guilt option.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 1:43 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Everybody in this thread seems to think that Dumbledore may have become evil if he had stayed friends with Grindelwald. What about the opposite? Could Grindelwald have become a member of the OOTP later in life and perhaps even a teacher at Hogwarts? Would Voldemort ahve been defeated sooner if Grindelwald was a member of the OOTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubairi View Post
Lets compare the similarities and differences between Lord Voldemort and Gellert Grindelwald from the point they were young Hogwarts graduates to evil tyrants.

I think the main difference is that Grindelwald thought that what he was doing was good for wizard kind, for 'the greater good'. But with Riddle, by the time he had graduated from Hogwarts he was already killing and making Horcruxes. So, for Grindelwald, he was, in some twisted way, doing what he thought was better for wizard kind. Voldemort just wanted immortality.
Wasn't Grindelwald a Durmstrang student?

I agree on that. Voldemort never would have hid the secret of the elder wand like Grindelwald did if the positions were reversed


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Old August 7th, 2007, 1:55 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
Dumbledore said that he ignored the signs that Grindelwald was not a man to associate himself with. Dumbledore probably would've ended their friendship once Grindelwald's true colors were something he could no longer ignore.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
I'm firm on the idea that Dumbledore would've ended his friendship with Grindelwald once he realized what Grindelwald was planning to do. He would not be the same person we know him as, but I believe he would end up fighting against Voldemort even if his friendship flourished for a while.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
I believe spending time in Nurmengard alone may have caused him to feel some form of remorse for his actions.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 2:25 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_NYY View Post
Everybody in this thread seems to think that Dumbledore may have become evil if he had stayed friends with Grindelwald. What about the opposite? Could Grindelwald have become a member of the OOTP later in life and perhaps even a teacher at Hogwarts? Would Voldemort ahve been defeated sooner if Grindelwald was a member of the OOTP?



Wasn't Grindelwald a Durmstrang student?
Grindelwald was a Durmstrang student who, if I recall correctly, was kicked out. He already was notorious as a kid.

I doubt Grindy would have become a "good guy" under DD's influence. I think they would have parted ways as soon as Grindy did his first murder for the greater good. It took years in the prison of his own making for him to begin showing remorse.


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Old August 7th, 2007, 3:26 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
No way. Dumbledore knew of his dark deeds before, he just kept trying to persuade himself otherwise. Sooner or later he would come to his senses.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
Yes. He was never influenced by Grindelwald's evil ways but he would still like power.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
I think it was both. He had a lot of time to think these things over in Nurmengand.


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