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Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #21  
Old August 7th, 2007, 3:38 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

I'm not convinced that DD would have remained evil if he had stayed with Grindy.... I definetely think that it's unquestionable that his turn-around happened at the moment of Ariana's death, but who's to say he wouldn't have backed out at some point anyway? DD never showed himself to be inherently evil (that we know of in cannon), just talented. Grindy had already demonstrated his evil ways by the time he met DD.


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  #22  
Old August 7th, 2007, 3:45 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?

I doubt it, if you read carefully the letter, there isn't much of ambition in Dumbloder's writing, he only wants to prove his power, dose not want to hurt. I think he knew Grindelwald liked the dark arts and was way more ambitious about a non-muggle community. So i think they would eventually separte.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?

Maybe, and maybe not. I see Gellert as a man who like do things out of strength more than reasonable words. But i think Dumbledore would have known the they had different intersts.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?

Both, I think. Such a long time in that cell, maybe he continued mailing Dumbledore, who knows. I think he would have been devastated when Dumbledore died, and didn't want to give away the wearabouts of the elder wand to a such powerful wizard.


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  #23  
Old August 7th, 2007, 7:48 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
I think that even if she didn't die, after many more months of friendship, Grindelwald's dark side would become more and more apparent and Dumbledore would realize he could not help Grindelwald. Either that or he could of somehow convinced Grindelwald to be less evil, unlikely though.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
The loss of his sister was one of the moments in his life that defined his character. If their friendship flourished he would have turned out different, how different? who knows.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
After spending all those years locked up by himself, I believe that he learned from his mistakes and in his last action he saw how wrong dark wizards like himself are and wanted to prevent VD from succeeding.


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  #24  
Old August 7th, 2007, 9:57 am
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendra View Post
The relationship of Dumbledore and Grindelwald is intricately complex on multiple levels.

Would their friendship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship had flourished?
Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship to his lost friend, or just guilt?
Ariana:

I think their friendship would have survived until Grindelwald proceeded to put his all-conquering plans to work. Dumbledore was hungry for power, but was apparently opposed to Grindelwald's tendency toward violence, and even felt guilt while collaborating with him. Ariana was a catalyst to ending their relationship, rather than a show-stopper.

Dumbledore:

Dumbledore was misguided by Grindelwald, I think. Eventually I'm sure his conscience would have told him to stop the friendship and put his foot down against his "friend". In his letter, Dumbledore predicts that they will eventually clash on the amount of violence to be used in their conquest. From this I think Dumbledore was never a violent person, whereas Grindelwald had a natural inclination toward blood-thirstiness.

Grindelwald:

HIs defiance against Voldemort was probably due to one of two things: his guilt for past crimes committed by his hand, and his knowledge that Voldemort's rise to power would probably come to naught. I felt that Grindelwald had an air of someone who considered Voldemort foolish and naive, as though he knew Voldemort was bound to fail.


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  #25  
Old August 8th, 2007, 10:25 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

I think that it would have been much more difficult for Dumbledore to see the error in his thinking had Ariana not died and had he stayed friends with Grindelwald. As he is in the books, we see that Dumbledore has learned control over his search for power, but that he knows that he is still vulnerable and keeps himself out of what he knows would be dangerous situations. I think this shows that he may have been evil (in a sense) and continued on the path he had been on had he remained friends with Grindelwald.


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  #26  
Old August 8th, 2007, 10:35 pm
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Re: The friendship of Grindelwald and Dumbledore

1. I think their friendship would have survived had Ariana's death not taken place because Grindelwald wouldn't have left in such a hurry. Albus would not have felt guilty and forsaken his old ways. He and Grindelwald would have no reason not to continue with their plan to enslave muggles and establish a ruling wizard class.

2. Dumbledore would definitely have been a different man if their friendship had survived. In his youth, he was a powerhungry skilled young man who was wrapped up in his great ability and very, very proud. He resembled young Tom Riddle in many ways. Dumbledore admits himself that he wasn't always the best person but that he changed his ways after Ariana died. Had this not happened, and he and Grindelwald continued their friendship, I think they would have become partners and possibly taken over the magical world. Dumbledore admits that power was always his weakness and without anything restraining him (Ariana's death) and with someone adding fuel to the fire (Grindelwald), he would have become immersed in the power much like Voldemort and Grindelwald did.

3. I think that in the end, after spending most of his life rotting away in Nurmengard, Grindelwald realized his errors and knew that Albus had been right. I think his defiance was both an act of friendship and guilt. He remembered his old friend Albus and wanted to make things right. Also, he felt guilty for his actions and saw that Voldemort had become what he had almost become. This was a terrible realization and I'd like to think that Grindelwald's attitude was for Dumbledore.


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  #27  
Old October 20th, 2007, 8:00 pm
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Re: The relationship between Grindelwald and Dumbledore

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
I think their friendship would have, however I do not think they would have had a relationship. We do not know if Grindelwald was gay or not, and I do not think he was. I think he found a friend in Dumbledore, a friend that understood him from an intellectual standpoint. However, this was what I thought Dumbledore had found as well, before Jo told us otherwise. I still stick by what I said, I do not think Dumbledore would have been friends or lovers with Grindelwald for very long, because I refuse to believe that Dumbledore would believe in the same "Greater Good" that Grindelwald believed in.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?
If they has stayed friends, we would never have seen the Dumbledore we saw in the books. He would have been the dark wizard instead of the great one.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?
Probably just guilt. After years of being locked in his own prison I find it hard to believe that Grindelwald hadn't come to the conclusion that what he did was wrong. I don't think Grindelwald wanted Voldemort to succeed, Why? There could be a number of reasons.


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  #28  
Old October 21st, 2007, 12:08 am
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How Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggpaco123 View Post
I have one question...

How was Dumbledore able to defeat Grindelwald even though he had The Elder Wand?
Grindelwald probably didn't excpect to see Dumbledore, or the meeting made feelings and memories turn up that was very unexpected. He probably didn't fight to kill and then Dumbledore was a more skilled wizard.
During his entire life Dumbledore fought against the bad (not always evil) and had become a master of spells to hurt and stop but not kill his opponents.
Grindelwald always tried to hurt lethaly or kill his opponents and he obviously dind't want to kill one of his best friends ever and therefore he was less skilled.

I don't think Gellert Grindelwald (G.G) would have become one the "good guys" seeing as he was already searching for the Hallows before he met Dumbledore (he carved the mark into a wall at Durmstrang). I got the impression that it was Dumbledore who followed G.G's lead and not the opposite. When G.G left Godrics Hollow Dumbledore dropped most of his thought about "the greater good".

I think that the love he had for G.G might have made him see things in a different light than what he really thought.
As for the question of Voldemort and G.G it's clear that Voldemort only and always thought of himself. He never had a friend to share his veiws with and he never needed it. Voldemorts way in life was never to die, to alone defeat everything.
G.G wanted ALL wizards to be above muggles. It's not good in anyway but it made him able to feel "better" than Voldemort I think.
So when Voldemort wanted the wand he (G.G) understood that Voldemort could never use it properly.
He might as well during all those years in prison have though alot about the friend who put him there, all for the greater good. But his one thought turned against him.
G.G could have felt remorse to Dumbledore, that he left. Maybe he loved him, who knows what was said between the two of them?

I don't think Gellert Grindelwald (G.G) would have become one the "good guys" seeing as he was already searching for the Hallows before he met Dumbledore (he carved the mark into a wall at Durmstrang). I got the impression that it was Dumbledore who followed G.G's lead and not the opposite. When G.G left Godrics Hollow Dumbledore dropped most of his thought about "the greater good".

I think that the love he had for G.G might have made him see things in a different light than what he really thought.
As for the question of Voldemort and G.G it's clear that Voldemort only and always thought of himself. He never had a friend to share his veiws with and he never needed it. Voldemorts way in life was never to die, to alone defeat everything.
G.G wanted ALL wizards to be above muggles. It's not good in anyway but it made him able to feel "better" than Voldemort I think.
So when Voldemort wanted the wand he (G.G) understood that Voldemort could never use it properly.
He might as well during all those years in prison have though alot about the friend who put him there, all for the greater good. But his one thought turned against him.
G.G could have felt remorse to Dumbledore, that he left. Maybe he loved him, who knows what was said between the two of them?

I don't think Gellert Grindelwald (G.G) would have become one the "good guys" seeing as he was already searching for the Hallows before he met Dumbledore (he carved the mark into a wall at Durmstrang). I got the impression that it was Dumbledore who followed G.G's lead and not the opposite. When G.G left Godrics Hollow Dumbledore dropped most of his thought about "the greater good".

I think that the love he had for G.G might have made him see things in a different light than what he really thought.
As for the question of Voldemort and G.G it's clear that Voldemort only and always thought of himself. He never had a friend to share his veiws with and he never needed it. Voldemorts way in life was never to die, to alone defeat everything.
G.G wanted ALL wizards to be above muggles. It's not good in anyway but it made him able to feel "better" than Voldemort I think.
So when Voldemort wanted the wand he (G.G) understood that Voldemort could never use it properly.
He might as well during all those years in prison have though alot about the friend who put him there, all for the greater good. But his one thought turned against him.
G.G could have felt remorse to Dumbledore, that he left. Maybe he loved him, who knows what was said between the two of them?


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  #29  
Old October 21st, 2007, 2:55 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I was, even more than surprised, relieved when I heard the news about Dumbledore's homosexuality. I had finished Deathly Hallows with a relatively negative feeling toward Dumbledore, especially regarding what he wrote in his letter to Grindelwald about taking over the Muggle population. I couldn't help think that it was his own darn fault that Ariana died, whether he dealt the killing blow or not (and surely he felt this way too.) This new information absolved Dumbledore a bit for me. Not only did it deepen the anguish he must have felt upon Ariana's death, but it really showed how strong he was -- his love for Grindelwald caused arguably the worst event in his life. And yet, he still championed love's power for good throughout it, which is just such a beautiful notion...

I personally have no idea why Jo didn't include this in the book, even if subtly. I would have been content in having far less time to brood over my newfound dislike of Dumbledore. Even if it does upset people who believe that homosexuality is immoral, I think the the integrity of the plot and the truth in the art are more important.



Last edited by Evin290; October 22nd, 2007 at 2:16 am. Reason: Fixed, thanks. :)
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  #30  
Old October 21st, 2007, 2:59 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

1. Perhaps, I'm not completely sure. If Dumbledore snapped out of it, as I'm sure he would've, probably not, but you never know Dumbledore. I mean, I don't think anyone thought he was gay until now.
2. Friendship, no. I'm sure Dumbledore would've snapped out of it. However, I think if they pursued a relationship, and it stuck, the wizardin world would be a very, VERY different place.
3. Yes, I think Grindelwald did it because he felt guilty, both for his general actions, and for defying the trust of his friend.


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  #31  
Old October 21st, 2007, 4:39 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?

Dumbledore was in love with Gellert. In love. Love can be blind and if his love was returned then yes, it would've lived and Dumbldore would not have been this great character that he is. He accepted and understood for example Snape. If Ariana hadn't died Dumbledore wouldn't have got this humongous wake up call and seen all the evill that GG actually was impriting in his mind!

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?


Without doubt. But how? I think that Dumbledore would have been attractet to the dark side. He himself said that he was attracted, very indeed. But it was his lost of sister, brother and now as we can see, lover, that made him see it. See what he was doing and see that it was very wrong. And I think that they wouldn't have let the relationship florish. You know, it was like in the 1880's or something. Being gay was like worse than being aš double rapist and murdere. It was just forbidden. By law and is still tabu in some countries. Why would the wizarding community be diffrent from the muggle? Being gay=> very bad boy. Look what happened to Oscar Wilde! awww

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?

Both. He had a lot of time to think about it you know... 50 years is a long time. I think this scene in the book is now very important. as I see it now it is that Gellert was trying to protect him, maybe indicating long lost love. Who knows, maybe he didn't know that Dumbledore was dead by then, who knows. But he was protecting Dumbledore and the wand.. but mostly Dumbledore. I hope.


Well, this has been the most strange day... after my reaction of Dumbledore sudden gay'ness my sister tells me that she's gay! Just because I was so happy for Dumbledore and his gay'ness I think... Well, strange enough, I am pleased and happy for them (my sister and Dumbledore) for coming out of the closet the very same day... like totally awesome!

I think and hope that one of the major characters in history of literature, Albus Dumbledore, is gay will help people to come out of the closet. My sister did so, the very same day and I am so proud of her! You have to accept what you are and who you love and I think that is exactly what Dumbledore did. He accepted his love for Gellert Grindewald and accepted being gay. I hope that this will help people to be them selves, it doesn't matter if the person you love is a man or a woman. It does matter that you love him/her and is happy.



Last edited by irpa; October 21st, 2007 at 4:43 am. Reason: just... wanted to say some extra thingys:P
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  #32  
Old October 21st, 2007, 5:20 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Dumbledore being gay totally surpised me!
When I read it I was just thinking about all the brokeback mounain/harry potter movies parodies on youtube that are going to crop up more often.
And I think we might see a few more dd/gg fanfics now...
rather than all those ones about lupin/sirius. i don't like those fanfics, lol...they're both straight, ******!

But still, I've got a question-were they actually together or was it only dumbles?


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  #33  
Old October 21st, 2007, 5:21 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?

I don't think it would have -- unless Dumbledore could have convinced Grindelwald to take a more moderate path. In King's Cross (DH), Dumbledore tells Harry that deep down he always knew that Grindelwald was the person in the violent duel at their home, but he didn't want to admit it. Sometimes love makes us blind, at least for a while. Even if Ariana had survived, I think that Dumbledore and Grindelwald would have to part ways because their principles were different.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?

I don't think so. Dumbledore would have eventually become the person he did anyway -- Dumbledore learned some things sooner than he would have because of Grindelwald's actions and Ariana's death. But I believe Dumbledore would have become the same person we see in the series.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?

My view is that it was an act of friendship/love for Dumbledore, both because he knew Dumbledore would have wanted to stop Voldemort getting the wand, and also because gaining the wand would mean the desecration of Dumbledore's tomb (as Harry so intuitively surmised).


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  #34  
Old October 21st, 2007, 7:15 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?

No. I think because I have the very strong feeling that it was one sided. Granted there is the possibilty that GG was gay as well but that doesnt mean he loved DD or was even interested in him in that fashion.

Even if they were involved, it could not have been true love in any respect because if it were GG would never had made any step to pull DD away from sibilings who clearly needed him. Love is NOT selfish. GG was definitly selfish.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?

I think so. If he had stayed he may have become so caught up in the **** that GG was feeding him he would have truly and fully become the kind of person most of us would not like. He may have ended up being the kind of person who would say "Voldemort had the right idea". Thank God that didnt happen.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?

I think it was two things.
Guilt over his past actions and the realization that his punishment for them was just.

Also I have a feeling that GG was smug as ever, had learned his lesson, saw someone similar to him making the same mistakes, and decided to rub it in his face that he would not give into his plans willingly.


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  #35  
Old October 21st, 2007, 9:54 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
I am actually going to disagree with the majority here and say yes, I think so. It seemed to me that it was the shock of Grindelwald leaving immediately after her death shocked Albus more than the fight itself. The fight would have come about between the brothers regardless of Grindelwald and if he had ever come into the picture just because of the nature of the two boys and their polar opposite temperaments. I think it would have taken longer, but a fight would have broken out regardless. I've seen it with my own brothers.
So I think if Grindelwald had stuck around and been a friend/more to Albus after the death of his sister, their relationship would only have grown. And if Ariana hadn't died, I think they would have remained friends regardless of the three-way duel.
One reason I think this way is because Dumbledore was in love. It seems to me that people are either overlooking this fact or underestimating the power of love and what it does to people's choices.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?
Oh, most definitely. I think he would have retained his own beliefs in some part of himself, but I think he would have been led down a much darker path out of his love for Gellert.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?
I believe it was a last act of friendship/love for the man he once knew and possibly loved. I doubt either man ever found love again in their lives, and it seemed to me that it was his last act of protecting the person that he himself so irrevocably hurt.


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  #36  
Old October 21st, 2007, 11:33 am
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I heard that Dumbledore's feelings for Grindlewand were not returned. Did Grindy even know? Was Grindy even gay himself?
I think Grindlewand's actions about not telling the truth to Voldy about the Elder Wand has nothing to do with his sexuality- he could have been heterosexual.
I feel sorry for DD- his character just keeps on getting more complicated. I would never have guessed and I would have been fine not knowing, not because i have anything against gays, maybe its because he was an old man (dead now) that makes it seem like "a little too much information".
I think JKR is trying to eliminate prejudice- she's already told us that its our actions that count over than what our blood heritage is, and now a character who everyone admires is gay.
I think everyone will be talking about this for a while.


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  #37  
Old October 21st, 2007, 4:15 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by mexicant View Post
I believe it was a last act of friendship/love for the man he once knew and possibly loved. I doubt either man ever found love again in their lives, and it seemed to me that it was his last act of protecting the person that he himself so irrevocably hurt.
I think Harry picked up on this as well. He mentioned at KC that Grindelwald may have defied Voldemort to "keep him from breaking into your tomb."

If that was the case, it might suggest that Grindelwald still retained feelings for Dumbledore.


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  #38  
Old October 21st, 2007, 6:27 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

What I'm confused about is whether Dumbledore's love for GG was reciprocated? I've read somewhere that it was unrequited - does anyone have a quote confirming/denying that?


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Old October 21st, 2007, 6:43 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendra View Post
What I'm confused about is whether Dumbledore's love for GG was reciprocated? I've read somewhere that it was unrequited - does anyone have a quote confirming/denying that?
I believe Jo didn't specify. She just said Dumbledore was in love with Grindelwald nd was terribly let down; and that his love was his great tragedy.


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  #40  
Old October 21st, 2007, 7:21 pm
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Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendra View Post
What I'm confused about is whether Dumbledore's love for GG was reciprocated? I've read somewhere that it was unrequited - does anyone have a quote confirming/denying that?
I'm sure it was mutual on some deep levels. Just reading DH shows how deeply involved these two were together, going to save the world, but JKR does compare DD as Bellatrix was to Voldemort. Meaning, DD had a blind love that was obsessive and intoxicating, which after it devastated his family and exposed his foolishness it abruptly ended with sobriety and abstinence, imo. It was his main fork in the road to becoming a sage & a Merlin to Harry.

Just as Snape was changed forever, so was DD by such a blow of tragic love. I think this is a very good reason why DD understood and trusted Snape. It's what shaped and changed both of their lives more than anything else till their deaths, imo.

Here is the word for word from JKR Friday night:

Did Dumbledore, who believed in the prevailing power of love, ever fall in love himself?

My truthful answer to you... I always thought of Dumbledore as gay. [ovation.] ... Dumbledore fell in love with Grindelwald, and that that added to his horror when Grindelwald showed himself to be what he was. To an extent, do we say it excused Dumbledore a little more because falling in love can blind us to an extent? But, he met someone as brilliant as he was, and rather like Bellatrix he was very drawn to this brilliant person, and horribly, terribly let down by him. Yeah, that's how i always saw Dumbledore. In fact, recently I was in a script read through for the sixth film, and they had Dumbledore saying a line to Harry early in the script saying I knew a girl once, whose hair... [laughter]. I had to write a little note in the margin and slide it along to the scriptwriter, "Dumbledore's gay!" [laughter] If I'd known it would make you so happy, I would have announced it years ago!


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