Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Stone > Legilimency Studies

Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old October 21st, 2007, 9:00 pm
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 5294 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,039
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I hope that Grindelwald's refusal to help Voldemort was due to remorse and his old feelings of friendship/love for Dumbledore.


Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #42  
Old October 21st, 2007, 9:26 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4620 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I would like to think that GG did feel remorse and more for the man whom he had let down so badly all those years ago and tried to stop Voldemort from breaking DD's tomb.

Jo did not say that DD's love was unrequited and so I would like to think it was resiprocated by GG.

While DD did find his responsibilities cumbersome, he would not have thrown them away and when Ariana died, GG knew that DD would change and he would most likely come down and hard on most of his plans. DD's eyes now would be a lot more open and his deductions harsh and his stance firm and uncomprmising.

It all began and ended with the death of his sister for him; that was the turning point and while I feel DD would not have become an equal to GG he would have gone a long way with his lover and he would have created a solid enough mess that would take more than a lifetime to undo.

GG running away also showed that he knew DD would change and not only that but he would also demand GG change too, and GG was not prepared to do so. So he threw away all that they shared and broke DD's heart in the process and made him the icon we know today.

But DD defeating GG even when GG had the Elder wand shows us that GG did have feeling, maybe buried under layers of darkness but still there or maybe DD was more skilled and more determined to redeem himself of that day when Ariana was killed.


Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old October 21st, 2007, 10:09 pm
wandrider  Male.gif wandrider is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4516 days
Location: Hunting Snorkack with Luna ;-)
Posts: 401
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But DD defeating GG even when GG had the Elder wand shows us that GG did have feeling, maybe buried under layers of darkness but still there or maybe DD was more skilled and more determined to redeem himself of that day when Ariana was killed.
Wow, I think you hit the Elder Wand mark right-on here. The power and force of the curse is given by its caster. I think you're exactly right to suggest GG didn't have his heart in it to kill DD.

Here's some canon to support this idea too:

But the importance of some of Dumbledore’s achievements cannot, I venture, be denied. What of his famous defeat of Grindelwald?
“Oh, now, I’m glad you mentioned Grindelwald,” says Skeeter with a tantalizing smile. “I’m afraid those who go dewy eyed over Dumbledore’s spectacular victory must brace themselves for a bombshell— or perhaps a Dungbomb. Very dirty business indeed. All I’ll say is, don’t be so sure that there really was the spectacular duel of legend.
After they’ve read my book, people may be forced to conclude that Grindelwald simply conjured a white handkerchief from the end of his wand and came quietly!”

This also implies Rita knew more about their relationship, imo, then she talks straight away implying Harry had a weird relationship with DD too.

The homosexual connotations are there from a Rita POV.

Besides, GG mocked & taunted Voldemort daring his death knowing DD's connection to the Wand. GG died for Dumbledore in the end, though DD had already passed "On".

I wonder if GG knew DD was dead?


Luna blessings...


__________________


He closed Lily's green eyes and only felt the burning love of all... is well, their shining star.






Dumbledore . . . Personally, I've Never Had Much Time for Heroes

It's not your choices Severus, it's your hair . . . Not! so! A l b u s . . . It's your b e a r d.



SigPic Wizardry done by Kala-Way
Luna Blessings for You & Yours & Everyone!
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old October 21st, 2007, 10:19 pm
Beatifically's Avatar
Beatifically  Female.gif Beatifically is offline
Elvendork
 
Joined: 4584 days
Location: Central Perk
Age: 27
Posts: 2,183
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
I wonder if GG knew DD was dead?
I think he did. He seemed aware of Voldemort and that he had risen to power again. If Voldemort's regime reached his ears in Nurmengard. And Harry seemed to think that Grindelwald wanted to protect the wand so Voldemort wouldn't break into Dumbledore's tomb, and I'd like to think that as well.


__________________

CoS and Pottermore sorted
You will never do anything in this world without courage.
It is the greatest quality of the mind next to honor.

- Aristotle

Specialises in awesome picspams.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old October 21st, 2007, 10:32 pm
Lucretia's Avatar
Lucretia  Female.gif Lucretia is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 5309 days
Location: south jersey/bryn mawr, pa
Age: 28
Posts: 318
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I'm curious...when JKR said Dumbledore was "let down"...does she mean the love was unrequited, or there was a relationship and Dumbledore was disappointed when he realized GG wasn't as good as he thought? I prefer to think there was a relationship (and that GG felt remorse later in life because of his love). That's what I assumed, but I saw someone mention that Dumbledore wasn't loved back. So what's the general consensus on that?


__________________
can't believe how strange it is
to be anything at all
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old October 21st, 2007, 10:39 pm
Adia  Female.gif Adia is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 5402 days
Posts: 4
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucretia View Post
I'm curious...when JKR said Dumbledore was "let down"...does she mean the love was unrequited, or there was a relationship and Dumbledore was disappointed when he realized GG wasn't as good as he thought? I prefer to think there was a relationship (and that GG felt remorse later in life because of his love). That's what I assumed, but I saw someone mention that Dumbledore wasn't loved back. So what's the general consensus on that?
JKR's actual statement doesn't say anything about Albus' love for Gellert being unrequited or not. I think it is just journalists not reading through what she said properly!

I also like to assume that there was some sort of relationship, too . I think JKR just meant "let down" in the sense that he refused to accept that Gellert had gone so dark after he ran away from Godric's Hollow.


Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old October 21st, 2007, 10:59 pm
kingwidgit's Avatar
kingwidgit  Female.gif kingwidgit is offline
Secret Keeper
 
Joined: 5452 days
Location: Rockin' the cradle...
Age: 49
Posts: 4,948
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucretia View Post
I'm curious...when JKR said Dumbledore was "let down"...does she mean the love was unrequited, or there was a relationship and Dumbledore was disappointed when he realized GG wasn't as good as he thought? I prefer to think there was a relationship (and that GG felt remorse later in life because of his love). That's what I assumed, but I saw someone mention that Dumbledore wasn't loved back. So what's the general consensus on that?
According to this news report:
  • 'One fan asked whether Albus Dumbledore, the head of the famed Hogwarts School of Wizardry and Witchcraft, had ever loved anyone. Rowling smiled. "Dumbledore is gay, actually," replied Rowling as the audience erupted in surprise. She added that, in her mind, Dumbledore had an unrequited love affair with Gellert Grindelwald, Voldemort's predecessor who appears in the seventh book. '

The rest of her comments, from a different reporting source, said:
  • "Dumbledore fell in love with Grindelwald, and that added to his horror when Grindelwald showed himself to be what he was. To an extent, do we say it excused Dumbledore a little more because falling in love can blind us to an extent? But, he met someone as brilliant as he was, and rather like Bellatrix he was very drawn to this brilliant person, and horribly, terribly let down by him."

This is in line with canon:
DH, King's Cross"Oh, I had a few scruples. I assuaged my conscience with empty words."
***
"Did I know, in my heart of hearts, what Gellert Grindelwald was? I think I did, but I closed my eyes."
***
"The Resurrection Stone---to him, though I pretended not to know it, it meant an army of Inferi!"
***
"Grindelwald lost control. That which I always sensed in him, though I pretended not to know, now sprang into terrible being."
***
"Well, Grindelwald fled, as any but I could have predicted."


__________________
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:05 am
Eliya  Female.gif Eliya is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 5293 days
Location: beyond the veil
Posts: 120
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?
Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?
I don't think that their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana didn't die. I think first or last but Dumbledore would see that Gellert wasn't such a good person as he saw him. Ariana's death made this moment to come earlier and opened Dumbledore's eyes about the true indentity of Gellert.

Also I think Gellert was of these kind of people, who don't need to love or to be loved (like Voldemort for example). And I believe Grindelwald never shared Dumbledore's feelings who was for him as some sort of a puppet because of the love Dumbledore felt towards him, I'm not sure Grindelwald did really appreciate this friendship.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?
I think it was mostly guilt, maybe also an act of friendship. I believe he didn't have any friends when he had fled after Ariana's death. So probably he remembered these times and felt guilt.


__________________
One may have a blazing hearth in one’s soul, and yet no one ever comes to sit by it. -Vincent van Gogh

Sirius is alive. In my heart.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 11:42 am
mexicant's Avatar
mexicant  Female.gif mexicant is offline
Jessica and lanifiel's Lackey
 
Joined: 4713 days
Location: perpetual disillusionment
Age: 34
Posts: 1,974
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwidgit View Post
According to this news report:
  • 'One fan asked whether Albus Dumbledore, the head of the famed Hogwarts School of Wizardry and Witchcraft, had ever loved anyone. Rowling smiled. "Dumbledore is gay, actually," replied Rowling as the audience erupted in surprise. She added that, in her mind, Dumbledore had an unrequited love affair with Gellert Grindelwald, Voldemort's predecessor who appears in the seventh book. '

The rest of her comments, from a different reporting source, said:
  • "Dumbledore fell in love with Grindelwald, and that added to his horror when Grindelwald showed himself to be what he was. To an extent, do we say it excused Dumbledore a little more because falling in love can blind us to an extent? But, he met someone as brilliant as he was, and rather like Bellatrix he was very drawn to this brilliant person, and horribly, terribly let down by him."

This is in line with canon:
DH, King's Cross"Oh, I had a few scruples. I assuaged my conscience with empty words."
***
"Did I know, in my heart of hearts, what Gellert Grindelwald was? I think I did, but I closed my eyes."
***
"The Resurrection Stone---to him, though I pretended not to know it, it meant an army of Inferi!"
***
"Grindelwald lost control. That which I always sensed in him, though I pretended not to know, now sprang into terrible being."
***
"Well, Grindelwald fled, as any but I could have predicted."
I'm inclined to go with your second reference as it seems to be a direct quote versus someone's memory of what was said. In the quote there is nothing about love being unrequited and I think that it is likely the reporter got his facts mixed up.
That is what I'm choosing to believe, anyway.


__________________
"if we can hold on, we can fix what is wrong
buy a little time for this head of mine
haven for us..."


Let's play nice, my pets. ~ Why I can't rub things in. ~ Search Engine - You're Doing It Right! ~ Questions? Ask here, but remember: Search Engine!

avatar created by Moriath
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 5:20 pm
HMN's Avatar
HMN  Female.gif HMN is offline
Assistant to Minister Longbottom
 
Joined: 5253 days
Location: in denial
Posts: 2,163
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

JKR clarifies this a bit at a press conference in Toronto today...
StarJo continued on to say:
The plot is what it is,” said Rowling. “(Dumbledore) did have, as I say, this rather tragic infatuation but that was a key part of the ending of the story so there it is. Why would I put the key part of my ending of my story in Book One?” Rowling said Tuesday she found it “freeing” to out Dumbledore, adding that the passages about him will mean different things to different readers.
“I think a child will see a friendship and I think a sensitive adult may well understand that it was an infatuation,” she said.
Full article



__________________
is totally awesome!
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old October 24th, 2007, 3:22 am
Starrlight  Female.gif Starrlight is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 5997 days
Location: DADA Class
Posts: 274
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I didn't like Deathly Hallows, I was disappointed, and now I like it even less. Supposedly she was making Dumbledore more human, revealing faults. Well--I thought the fault was that he was tempted by power in his youth. This revelation completely undercuts that. She's saying, he was infatuated, he was blinded to Grindelwald's evil. So really he wasn't tempted because we all have a dark side, he was just blinded by love. If Grindelwald had been a woman, using this explanation would be just as disappointing. Blinded by love, how trite.


Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old October 25th, 2007, 11:29 am
Quickquill  Female.gif Quickquill is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4712 days
Location: Beersheva, Israel
Posts: 231
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Perhaps Albus and Gellert 's friendship would have lasted longer if Ariana hadn't been killed. As to whether Albus Dumbledore would have been a different person, well, he was already plotting with Grindlewald and justifying it by saying it was for "the greater good". If their relationship had continued, it's likely Dumbledore would have gotten in deeper; possibly to the point of no return. As he pointed out, The attractions of power had a corrupting influence on him.

As to how Albus Dumbledore was able to defeat Gellert Grindlewald despite his possession of the Elder wand, I would put it down to Grindelwald's reluctance to kill his friend. After all, they had not parted company because they ceased to like each other, Grindelwald fled because he thought he would be accused of Ariana's death. Nobody really knew whose spell was responsible, but all three felt guilty. Albus and Gellert still loved and respected each other as wizards and people. That was why Albus kept his distance from Grindlewald despite Grindlewald's crimes until he couldn't ignore them any longer. He wasn't keen on fighting his friend. That was why he used minimal force and merely defeated and imprisoned Grindlewald in his own prison.

I think Grindlewald's defiance of Voldemort was multifaceted. 1) Yes his past friendship with Albus Dumbledore had something to do with it. He may or may not have heard that Dumbledore was dead. If not, he would have wanted to protect him. If he knew of Dumbledore's death, he might have wanted to prevent the desecration of his grave.
2) He knew how dangerous the Elder wand could be in the wrong hands, and Vlodemort was quite dangerous enough already. Grindlewald saw no reason to help him .
3) Grindlewald had nothing to lose. He was already in prison, and already at the end of his life. He could afford to resist Voldemort. What was the worst Voldemort could do to him? Kill him? He was ready to die.



Last edited by Quickquill; October 25th, 2007 at 11:31 am.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old October 25th, 2007, 2:39 pm
LoveWeasleys's Avatar
LoveWeasleys  Female.gif LoveWeasleys is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 4600 days
Location: The Water Gardens
Age: 35
Posts: 2,487
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by mexicant View Post
I'm inclined to go with your second reference as it seems to be a direct quote versus someone's memory of what was said. In the quote there is nothing about love being unrequited and I think that it is likely the reporter got his facts mixed up.
That is what I'm choosing to believe, anyway.
I am chosing to the believe that as well. I think the that the love was returned, which would make Grindelwald taking off right after Ariana was killed that much more tragic and heartbreaking for Dumbledore. I think it also explains why Grindelwald never invaded Brition and why Dumbledore took 5 years to face him. That is how see the relationship and what happened afterwards, but I understand that since it isn't in the book others have the right to view it differently.


Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old October 25th, 2007, 2:49 pm
mariebeth83's Avatar
mariebeth83  Female.gif mariebeth83 is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4484 days
Location: The place where I'm happiest..
Age: 36
Posts: 901
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place?

I would like to think that it wouldn't have survived in a way, because I believe that in essence Dumbledore was a good person who was swayed by his love for Grindevald and because of this, embraced Grindewalds beliefs and opinions.

I would think that it would have lasted longer, but that eventually Dumbledore would have rethought his beliefs and realised that while he did love Grindewald, he couldn't support him.

Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished?

It's entirely probable that he would have been a totally different person to the man he eventually became.

Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt?

I would like to think that it was, that he did love Dumbledore, because I want Dumbledore's love for Grindewald to have been reciprocated.


__________________

Because of Edward Cullen...I'm staying single until I find a vampire
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old October 26th, 2007, 12:45 am
Lunabell14  Female.gif Lunabell14 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4506 days
Posts: 30
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Does anyone happen to know if Dumbledore and Grindlewald actually had a relationship or was it an unrequitted love?


__________________
Give her Hell from us, Peeves!

RIP Fred.


Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old October 26th, 2007, 1:19 am
artemis1964  Female.gif artemis1964 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4426 days
Posts: 22
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Before I answer I want to state that all people read books as it relates to what they know in their own lives. What I may hold true and see one way may not be what you see, but it does not mean either of us are wrong.


Would their friendship/relationship have survived if Ariana's death hadn't taken place? Dumbledore was upset with the muggles for their treatment of his sister, what it caused for his Father, what it lead to concerning his Sister, and the death of his Mother. It has also caused him to miss out on things. Into his life came a handsome, intelligent, person, who swept him off his feet, seducing him with promises of righting, wrongs, fixing the world, learning more about magic, flattering him about his knowledge, mastery, and his intelligence. I don't believe what caused the rift between Grindelwald and Albus was Ariana's death but actually happened before that, when Grindlewald attacked them both. It was that instant, not what followed, that allowed Albus to see the lack of compassion, and empathy within who he thought was his perfect companion. I think at that moment that Albus knew that he projected compassion and empathy unto Grindlewald, because if he had any of it he would never have tried to harm his family. Grindlewald was not the person, he had thought and felt his was, so the relationship was over before the actual death of Ariana, even if the comprehension of it by Albus might have taken awhile.


Would Dumbledore be a different man if their friendship/relationship had flourished? It is the bad things in our lifes which seem to have the most effect on us. You can only tell who someone is if you see them handle the bad times. We all handle good times well. Still I don't think the relationship would have lasted. Dumbledore would have eventually sensed the lack of compassion and empathy in his partner.


Did Grindelwald's defiance to Voldemort indicate an act of friendship/love to his lost friend/lover, or just guilt? I would hope that Grindelwald would have eventually found some humanity within himself and was protecting Dumbledore. Sadly and rarely do people who lack empathy ever find it. That is what serial killers so dangerous. They feel for themselves and their situations but none for the victim or the victims family. I would find it more likely that he did not want his name to be overshadowed by Riddles.


__________________

My 229lb mastiff service dog, and my 13lb turkish van service kitty with leg over her best friend's head. Both are rescue, and they are both laying on me.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old October 26th, 2007, 1:20 am
HPgreyhound  Male.gif HPgreyhound is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4717 days
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 65
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunabell14 View Post
Does anyone happen to know if Dumbledore and Grindlewald actually had a relationship or was it an unrequitted love?
I picture it as an unrequitted love.


__________________
"It's the unknown we fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more." -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old October 26th, 2007, 2:18 am
Lord Godric's Avatar
Lord Godric  Male.gif Lord Godric is offline
Squee-worthy
 
Joined: 5251 days
Posts: 4,524
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOVEWEASLEYS04 View Post
I am chosing to the believe that as well. I think the that the love was returned, which would make Grindelwald taking off right after Ariana was killed that much more tragic and heartbreaking for Dumbledore. I think it also explains why Grindelwald never invaded Brition and why Dumbledore took 5 years to face him. That is how see the relationship and what happened afterwards, but I understand that since it isn't in the book others have the right to view it differently.
But in 20/20 hindsight I can see that Dumbledore loved Grindelwald. He was as Jo put it infatuated with him. However, I don't see anything that shows Gellert returned Dumbledore's love. The canon that we have says he was afraid of Dumbledore, and that is why he didn't bring his reign of terror into England. I do think he stayed out of England because of Dumbledore, but I definitely think it was because of his presence, not because of his love for him. All signs point to the fact it was an obsession on Dumbledore's part and a friendship on Grindelwald's part.


Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old October 26th, 2007, 2:37 am
Jessica's Avatar
Jessica  Female.gif Jessica is offline
Mouse
 
Joined: 6113 days
Location: Between a rock & a hard place
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
All signs point to the fact it was an obsession on Dumbledore's part and a friendship on Grindelwald's part.
I can see Grindlewald suspecting the infatuation and using it to his advantage as well. He seems like the kind of person who would manipulate another person's feelings to get his own way.


__________________
Everyone loves Bas Döse, me especially.
They're the best band in the world.
I love them even more than Snape and cats.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old October 26th, 2007, 2:41 am
artemis1964  Female.gif artemis1964 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4426 days
Posts: 22
Re: Grindelwald and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunabell14
Does anyone happen to know if Dumbledore and Grindlewald actually had a relationship or was it an unrequitted love?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HPgreyhound View Post
I picture it as an unrequited love.
"Grindelwald’s aunt, Bathilda Bagshot, says of their meeting: “The boys took to each other at once.” " To me that is far from unrequitted. They were as much taken with each other's intelligence, logic, knowledge, mastery of magic, views on their world, as they were totally enchanted with each other. They worked hard studying the hallows, side by side enjoying each other viewpoints. That is as far from unrequited as possible.
Unrequited under Websters;not reciprocated or returned in kind

If they took to each other, wouldn't the relationship had to be "returned in kind"?


Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Stone > Legilimency Studies

Bookmarks

Tags
albus dumbledore, character analysis, gellert grindelwald


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:37 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.