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In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage



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  #21  
Old September 20th, 2006, 8:00 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

That was a very nice editorial. One of the problems is that there really are not a lot of Slytherins for us to talk about. Here is what JK Rowling said about them on July 16, 2005
Quote:
ES: Why is Slytherin house still -
JKR: Still allowed!
[All laugh]
ES: Yes! I mean, it's such a stigma.
JKR: But they're not all bad. They literally are not all bad. [Pause] Well, the deeper answer, the non-flippant answer, would be that you have to embrace all of a person, you have to take them with their flaws, and everyone's got them. It's the same way with the student body. If only they could achieve perfect unity, you would have an absolute unstoppable force, and I suppose it's that craving for unity and wholeness that means that they keep that quarter of the school that maybe does not encapsulate the most generous and noble qualities, in the hope, in the very Dumbledore-esque hope that they will achieve union, and they will achieve harmony. Harmony is the word.
ES: Couldn't -
JKR: Couldn't they just shoot them all? NO, Emerson, they really couldn't!
[All laugh]
ES: Couldn't they just put them into the other three houses, and maybe it wouldn't be a perfect fit for all of them, but a close enough fit that they would get by and wouldn't be in such a negative environment?
JKR: They could. But you must remember, I have thought about this -
ES: Even their common room is a gloomy dark room-
JKR: Well, I don't know, because I think the Slytherin common room has a spooky beauty.
ES: It's gotta be a bad idea to stick all the Death Eaters' kids together in one place.
[All crack up again ]
JKR: But they're not all - don't think I don't take your point, but - we, the reader, and I as the writer, because I'm leading you all there - you are seeing Slytherin house always from the perspective of Death Eaters' children. They are a small fraction of the total Slytherin population. I'm not saying all the other Slytherins are adorable, but they're certainly not Draco; they're certainly not, you know, Crabbe and Goyle. They're not all like that. That would be too brutal for words, wouldn't it?
ES: But there aren't a lot of Death Eater children in the other houses, are there?
JKR: You will have people connected with Death Eaters in the other houses, yeah, absolutely.
ES: Just in lesser numbers.
JKR: Probably. I hear you. It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water; hence the fact that their common room is under the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and balance, that you had four necessary components and by integrating them you would make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, as we know.


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  #22  
Old September 20th, 2006, 9:50 pm
fReEbYrD  Undisclosed.gif fReEbYrD is offline
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage



I'm just wondering if anyone else things that had Merope lived, Voldemort wold have grown up different? Definitely part of the reason that Voldy is so evil was because of his upbringing. If Merope was around to be a mother to him would it have done anything? I don't feel that she is capable of the love and nurturing a child requires, given that no one has ever expressed any towards her (ie. her father, her brother, Tom Riddle Sr. they never loved her).


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  #23  
Old September 20th, 2006, 10:03 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Quote:
Originally Posted by fReEbYrD View Post

I'm just wondering if anyone else things that had Merope lived, Voldemort wold have grown up different? Definitely part of the reason that Voldy is so evil was because of his upbringing. If Merope was around to be a mother to him would it have done anything? I don't feel that she is capable of the love and nurturing a child requires, given that no one has ever expressed any towards her (ie. her father, her brother, Tom Riddle Sr. they never loved her).
I think that a lot depends on what she would have done with her life once the baby was born. I think it is possible that she could have raised Tom somewhat normally, if she stayed away from her crazy father and brother. She may have been an abusive mother, though, having known that kind of treatment all her life. Merope must have been capable of love, if she loved Tom Sr enough to give him a love potion. So, I think Tom Jr would have been better off with her than in an orphanage. He probably would have turned out like Snape!


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  #24  
Old September 20th, 2006, 10:17 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Quote:
But Regulus... I have to wonder about him. Sirius said he was "soft" and "an idiot" (OotP), and then this soft idiot goes out and tries to take on Voldemort? The pieces don't seem to fit. But maybe Sirius had a slightly distorted view of his brother. Hmmm....
Sirius misjudged Wormtail and Kreacher; he may well have misjudged Regulus too.


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  #25  
Old September 20th, 2006, 10:28 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

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Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
Merope must have been capable of love, if she loved Tom Sr enough to give him a love potion.
But is that love or infatuation? How would she know what love is, I guess is what my point is. I mean, she only knew Tom Sr. by watching him at his house, or around town, so can what she have be truly love?


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  #26  
Old September 21st, 2006, 2:12 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Great job! This topic has been on my mind a great deal. It's about time someone made an editorial on it!

I particularly liked the section about Merope. You made a good case for her bravery. It took a lot of strength already for her to go on like that, to continue hoping, and, above all, to love after all she had been through.

Quote:
I fear that Snape will have to make an ultimate sacrifice, though. Can I admit I hope he is the character that won a reprieve?
I hope so too. He deserves a break after everything he's done. Just a nice long lifetime without having to wear a mask both literally and metaphorically...

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After all, what would the world be without Severus Snape?
When I read that, I raised my head and hands to the sky and said "AMEN!"
You think I might just be a Snape fan?


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  #27  
Old September 21st, 2006, 11:49 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Brilliant, first article I read in a long time, Brilliant idea!!...and pretty true!
I don't agree with whoever said they are not good traits, they are but there different ways of saying the traits a trait, like in the article, thers Stand By Your Friends and the one you mentioned etc......theres a difference, but its still the trait!...I am a Hufflepuff!! PROUDLY!


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Last edited by HarryFan; September 21st, 2006 at 11:52 am.
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  #28  
Old September 21st, 2006, 7:26 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Great article! I'm glad that someone decided to write about Slytherin house and not degenerate into the simple stereotyping that I see in many places. (ie. They're in Slytherin, so they muist be evil! This person can't be in Slytherin, since they're all evil! This person is brave, so of course they're good etc, etc.) I don't quite fully agree with the arguments you used, but I do agree with the point you're making!

I also agree with the person here who said bravery isn't just a trait of 'good' people. The characteristics that JK gives the houses aren't good or evil in themselves- it's how you use what you have. Bella definitely comes off as a brave person to me. I can see her doing anything for Volde, or not even breaking a sweat if faced with a few dragons (though the last one probably has less to do with bravery, and more to do with insanity ). Ambition, cunning, etc. AREN'T bad traits.

And the person who said Harry had Slyth traits- I agree too. I think the idea that Harry was only decided for Slyth house just based on the assumption that Volde was a part of him (and that's what the hat saw) is an example of thinking that Slyth house and it's traits are all bad, and hence Harry can't really have been part of it. Even Albus thinks he has some of the traits (bolding mine):

Quote:
"Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift, Parseltongue - resourcefulness - determination -- a certain disregard for rules," he added, his mustache quivering again.


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Last edited by cinnamonluvr; September 21st, 2006 at 7:28 pm.
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  #29  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 12:36 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Well written, but I'm afraid I have to disagree. I don't even know where to start.
Courage; the ability to overcome fear or despair: bravery,valor
I feel none of these characters have shown any of these qualities(except maybe Snape, but that's hard to say until we know his motives). All these characters actions are in a direct result of a personal fear, which is the antithosis of bravery.
Slughorn; He may not be a bad guy, but he basically stands by and does nothing during the course of past and present wars. He may eventually have, with cohersion given up the memory Dumbledore needed, but that is a far cry from what help he would be capable of giving the Order.
Draco; Again not fully evil and he does have a chance to turn it around. But not commiting murder, does not in my eyes make him brave. I believe he fears the consequences of commiting this murder and for all his talk of how he believes muggleborns should be killed, he is just not able to walk the walk. He definatly cares about his family, but would he lay his lfe on the line for them? I just see no evidence to support that he would.
Merope Gaunt; This is the one that really got my blood boiling. What we have here is a women so consumed by the fear of living a life without love, she decides to just give up. In turn denying her only child the very same thing. As a mother myself, I could not imagine purposely doing that to my child. As for lifting the love spell off Tom Riddle, that only proves that she understood that artificial love is not the same as real love and therefore not what she really longed for.
So, just as a side note I'm not saying Slytherins are not capable of bravery, but the examples given just did not make the grade for me.


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  #30  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 1:36 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

I can certainly concede that your readings of all three of the characters you mentioned are perfectly valid alternatives to my own reading. Certainly fear did keep ol' Sluggie from revealing that memory, no question about it.

As for Draco, I think I've conceded before the possibility that it was fear, and not courage, motivating him. I like to think it was courage, but I may be quite wrong. (As I've also said before, I've never liked the little ferret.)

As for Merope, sorry to offend your maternal sensibilities. I never meant to argue that her choice to die instead of raising her son was brave, far from it--I think it's her tragic flaw. The bravery there was in choosing not to be angry or bitter toward her father or Tom Jr.--not something her son was able to achieve.

As for your views on the love potion, again, your views are perfectly valid. Certainly Dumbledore's reading that she was so besotted, she'd thought Tom would love her, or yours: she got greedy and wanted "the real thing" are both valid possibilities. I like to think, though, Merope, who "could not bear to continue enslaving him by magical means...made the choice to stop giving him the potion" (HBP Brit Version, 203), did so because not only did she love him, but somewhere she knew that "enslaving him" was wrong, and that by stopping she was doing the right thing. It's not courage on-par with Lily Evans, but you can't not call that courage, especially for poor, as you say, fearful Merope. Still, your reading (she did it because she wanted real love--over-confidence and greed) may be correct, and it that case, I'd agree that courage was not a factor.

Thanks for reading! -Dezie



Last edited by DezieBlack; September 22nd, 2006 at 1:40 am. Reason: grammar faux pas, clarity issues
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  #31  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 11:16 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

I hope I didn't offend you, I really did enjoy your editorial. It got me thinking, it just got me thinking in the opposite direction. But, I think any one who writes an article that can stir me into writing more than one paragraph deserves kudos. I just ddidn't express that enough in my last post. So well done!


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  #32  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 3:54 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

I really like this editorial. You did a wonderful job, you should get a sticker! A very Snapey sticker!

I would say more, but it seems that it all has been said, I just want you to know that I really enjoyed this. (and it was one of the first that I really read through)


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  #33  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 5:03 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Beautiful editorial!


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Last edited by Dancing_Blade; September 23rd, 2006 at 5:35 am.
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  #34  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 6:32 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

To Burns (whom I'm very tempted to refer to as "Burnsie"),

I wasn't offended at all! I was flattered you took the time to reply. (Same holds for everyone.) And I always appreciate alternative points of view! Thank you for the lovely compliments on both posts.

To WimbleMimble,

Awesome name...and...now I really want a really Snapey sticker.

That made me giggle.

-Dezie


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  #35  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 9:17 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Well Dezie I liked your editorial and it got me thinking about impressions I first got when reading the books ages ago.

Hagrid once said to Harry there wasn't a bad wizard alive (or dead?) wasn't in Slytherin. Mind you as a former Gryffindor I'd say he was a bit biased. However although the majoity of the bad wizards were in Slytherin - Peter Pettigre being just one notable exception - I feel we don't know enough of many of the rest of those in Slytherin. We know enough about Crabbe and Goyle and also Marcus Flint, Pansy P and that Bullsrode creature to know they aren't the most likeable of people, however what about some of the others not even mentioned. These might be the ones who it was hope would be active in uniting all the houses of Hogwarts when under threat from Voldie et al. Perhaps there should be houses in Hogwarts for sporting rivallry only and not scholastic stuff and that classes should be a mixture of all four houses not just two at a time. Perhaps more socialisation between the houses should be introduced with one big common room instead of four smaller ones?

Poor Merope had the courage to stop giving Tom Riddle Sr. the love potion and then died of a broken heart when she knew her unrequieted love would always stay that way. Losing the will to live is not necessarily cowardly and maybe she thought her son who looked so much like his father would have a better life in a non-magical world. After all how was she to know the father would reject the son and place him in an orphanage where he would grow up a bitter twisted person. Constant rejection must affect one's personality after all - just look at Merope....

As for Snape I still think he saved Albus from what would have been a most horrible death at the hands of Fenrir and the other Deatheaters so in a way that was courageous as he must have known what everyone else would think of him after that. I also think Albus was dying anyway from all the poisons he had in his system from destroyng the ring and trying to retrieve the locket. Voldie's nasty revenge for anyone tryng to get to horcruxes.

Sughorn did give up his horcrux conversation memory even though he was a bit drunk . He still did know what he was doing and must have realised it could have nasty consquences for him in the future if Voldie gets to him. He also agreed to take over as head of Slytherin house after Snape fled and not run into hiding himself for self-preservation. That in my book is being courageous in a way.

Regulus our other Slytherin - if he is R.A.B. was also brave enough to do something about trying to stop Voldie. If he isn't he still had the courage to try and get out of being a DE which involves defying Voldie and that would take courage I reckon, as everyone who has done this in the past seems to have died haven't they.

I forgot about Draco who in short was brave (or should it be cowardly?) enough to lower his wand in the tower. It could also be construed he was brave enough and loved his parents enough to try and carry out Voldie's orders in the first place. However it could be doubtful if this was bravery or just cowardly - being too scared not to do these things or just out of love for his parents and respect for Albus or fear of being a killer and the consequences of being the killer of Albus in the first place????

I forgot about Draco who in short was brave (or should it be cowardly?) enough to lower his wand in the tower. It could also be construed he was brave enough and loved his parents enough to try and carry out Voldie's orders in the first place. However it could be doubtful if this was bravery or just cowardly - being too scared not to do these things or just out of love for his parents and respect for Albus or fear of being a killer and the consequences of being the killer of Albus in the first place????


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Old September 26th, 2006, 5:23 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Belgarath, I agree with your thoughts on Slughorn, but some parts of your post really caught me off guard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath2 View Post
I really loved this editorial, I get so annoyed when people seem to think that the self-righteousness of Sirius and James is the only sort of courage in the world.
What? I'll level with you on Sirius (to an extent), but I completely disagree with your opinion of James. How was what he did self-righteous? He was an utter idiot (and I'm not going to defend bullying) as a teenager, but he's shown several times that he's essentially good at heart.

Quote:
She wasn't interested in stand alone glory like the Ravenclaws or the Gryffs.
...or Slytherins.

Quote:
At least this is what the Hufflepuffs seem to be like today, like a cliquey gang who are willing to give you their friendship and help, but will turn against you if they think you've hurt one of their members. Qualities that aren't the best really.
A large amount of students were like that in CoS towards Harry. It wasn't fair, but can you blame them? It's group mentality, safety in numbers and all. Not just Hufflepuffs. You seem to be against all Houses except Slytherin ^-^


On the editorial: like lots of other people, I wanted to disagree at first (especially the part about the Gryffindors being especially "flashy.") But I do like the Slytherins, and all that you said just struck a chord with me. I don't think there's anything wrong with being cunning (even though I'm about as cunning as a sock. A drunk one. With no eyes.) But anyway, well done! I wish I could write as well you do.


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  #37  
Old October 2nd, 2006, 2:23 am
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

heh, I wrote a couple of articles a lot like this one a while back. You stealing from me? It's always nice to see my house get the respect it deserves. And poor Merope. I felt so badly for her. Good ol' Sluggy, too. Nice job


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  #38  
Old November 29th, 2006, 11:26 pm
Anna_bella  Female.gif Anna_bella is offline
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

This article is a very good one.

It makes people think that in the end a person is either totally bad or good but a lot of grey!

Slytherin's is a strange house which is ruled by there emotions and soul even if they try and hidden them away like Snape and Voldemort.

They are ruled by them and that makes them very dangerous as they only think about their own feelings and not of others. This is tragic flaw in a brillant house.

I loved your article very much even if Slytherin have a quiet courage which is a mix of fear and twisted self -interest.

It does not mean they don't have the ability to be brave when it is need not in fool hardly and flashly dashing in way without thinking like some Griffindors we known!

Slytherin's make one think about what is courage and what is fear?
Very good!


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  #39  
Old January 2nd, 2007, 8:05 pm
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

I agree with Burns. While I don't believe that cowardice is a Slytherinisque trait, I also don't believe that its opposite, courage, is an outstandinlgy Slytherinisque trait. Sure, a Slytherin can be courageous, but the examples given in the article were not all that convincing. I think it is more likely that Draco restrained from Killind Dumbledore out of fear than out of courage; I believe that Slughorn was acting cowardly for keeping the memory to himself until the moment when he had lost his self-control; and so forth.

But I do agree that some Slytherins, like Snape and perhaps some of the Malfoys, appear to be remarkably courageous. So, being Slytherin doesn't mean being a coward. It doesn't mean being evil, either. It means being ambitious and dauntless; perhaps also making plans is a Slytherinisque thing to do. I think that optimism is a Slytherinisque trait. Slytherins can be many admirable things. Personally I don't believe that I belong in Slytherin because I have some flaws like being panicky and unplanned and not ambitious enough. It would be an honour to be a Slytherin, though.



Last edited by Thunderclouds; January 2nd, 2007 at 8:07 pm.
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  #40  
Old January 16th, 2007, 5:07 pm
Jay Potter  Female.gif Jay Potter is offline
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Re: In Defense of Slytherin: A Different Kind of Courage

Finally, someone to defend my house! I am a Slytherin, through and through. That doesn't mean I'm not intelligent or brave or helpful or whatever else quality you would like to insert. It just means I'm more ambitious, more cunning and manipulative.

And that's the crux here. Being Gryffindor doesn't mean you aren't cunning, being Hufflepuff doesn't mean you aren't smart, being Ravenclaw doesn't mean you aren't brave, and being Slytherin certainly doesn't mean you aren't loyal.

In fact, Snape is incredibly loyal; although of course, the jury it still out on whom he is loyal to... whether himself, Dumbledore or Voldemort.

The problem about the series is that it is from Harry's viewpoint. We meet characters who interact with Harry, and therefore see them as they would interact with him. Draco isn't a very nice person, granted, but what about more neutral Slytherin's, like Zabini or Nott or Greengrass? Harry is also prejudiced, and so naturally, they aren't chummy. He projects dislike immediately any Slytherin he encounters, and in return, they reply accordingly.


Simply human relations, really.


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