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  #61  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:24 am
Platinum  Undisclosed.gif Platinum is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

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Originally Posted by Super_Man View Post
why did the elder wand voldemort was using the first time "kill" harry, but the 2nd time, it didnt, it backfired?
My theory...

It killed Harry the first time (if he was dead at all...) because Harry wanted to be killed. The wand recognized its master's wishes... probably helped that a piece of Voldemort's soul was inside Harry.

The second time, the wand didn't backfire. Harry's curse struck Voldemort's curse in mid-air, the wand recognized its master's will to live and reflected the Killing Curse back at Voldemort to save its master.

That's my take on it, anyway.... LOL


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  #62  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:29 am
Trevelyan  Male.gif Trevelyan is offline
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Elder's Wand and Harry's Wand?

how did Harry know that the elder's wand was capable of repairing his own broken one? Anyone know?


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  #63  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:43 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by Metalhead View Post
I got the feeling that the Elder Wand wasn't a wand at all. It was more the magical essence of a wand. Therefor, wands don't have to change hands. When a person defeats the Elder Wand, it's magical essence joins their wand. So, when Draco disamred Dumbledore, his wand recieved the essence. From that point on, you don't see Draco in any wand fights. When Harry took Draco's wand by force, he became the master of the essence. As such, a spell made by the essence(Disarming spell) is the only magic(besides Lily's unique sacrifice) to block or rebound an unforgivable.
I don't agree with the explanation because as you say the essence joins their own wand, and yet you see them using the Elder wand rather than their own wand. When Harry became the true owner of the wand, his own wand (which was Draco's wand) hadn't become the Elder wand. Harry used the Elder wand itself to rejoin his broken wand thereby proving that the power of the wand didn't transfer, like you are saying.


  #64  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:46 am
ladyblack23  Female.gif ladyblack23 is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

Every one master has defeated the one before. Including Grindlewald.

"Then the intruder shot a Stunning Spell from his wand and jumped ...." DH UK kids version page 230. Grindlewald stunned Gregorovich, thus filling the requirements of "defeating" him.

Then DD defeated Grindlewald in battle.

Then Draco disarmed and thus "defeated" Dumbledore, becoming the master, but never actually possessing the wand. (heres were it gets tricky as Voldemort presumes that Snape becomes the master here)

Then Harry, in successfully defeating Draco in Malfoy Manor, won ownership of the wand.

There you go. No plot hole.....unless I'm mistken.

But I see why theres confusion. The whole elder wand is really confusing.

I really like your theory, Platinum. Definately helps it all make sense.


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  #65  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:55 am
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

I think that the first time, the Elder wand didn't realize that the ownership has changed to Harry yet. But on the second time, the Elder wand saw that Draco's wand's allegiance had already been won over, meaning that Draco was satisfactorily defeated in the eyes of his wand, so the Elder wand took it that Draco was defeated by Harry and hence took Harry as its new master.

Maybe wands do have personalities and such, just that we do not know.


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  #66  
Old July 24th, 2007, 11:34 am
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Re: Elder's Wand and Harry's Wand?

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Originally Posted by Trevelyan View Post
how did Harry know that the elder's wand was capable of repairing his own broken one? Anyone know?
I'm not sure he did know for certain, but he knew the elder wand was very powerful so it was worth giving it a try.


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  #67  
Old July 24th, 2007, 11:41 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
When Harry had disarmed Draco and had become the rightful owner of the wand, the wand could no longer function against him and hence the "Expelliarmus" spell forced Voldemort's AK to work against him, thereby killing him.
Harry was disarmed by Lupin in PoA. Why didn't his wand switch loyalties?


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  #68  
Old July 24th, 2007, 11:47 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Harry was disarmed by Lupin in PoA. Why didn't his wand switch loyalties?
Because firstly there was no harm intended, secondly the wand chooses the wizard - basically, the wand doesn't think that the rival wizard is strong enough to persuade it to change sides.


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  #69  
Old July 24th, 2007, 11:52 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by resol612 View Post
Because firstly there was no harm intended, secondly the wand chooses the wizard - basically, the wand doesn't think that the rival wizard is strong enough to persuade it to change sides.
Draco never would have killed Dumbledore, even he acknowledged that.

Are you suggesting Draco is stronger than Dumbledore?


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Lunch was six dollars and thirty-one cents at the Lamplighter Inn, that's on Highway Two near Lewis Fork.
That was a tuna fish sandwich on whole wheat, slice of cherry pie, and a cup of coffee.
Damn good food. Diane, if you ever get up this way that cherry pie is worth a stop.

  #70  
Old July 24th, 2007, 11:52 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Harry was disarmed by Lupin in PoA. Why didn't his wand switch loyalties?
In PoA the wand was still Owned by Dumbledore. It changed owners when Draco Disarmed Dumbledore in HBP. Then it changed owners when Harry disarmed Draco in DH (Malfoy Manor). When Lupin had disarmed Harry in PoA, Harry wasn't the master of the wand.


  #71  
Old July 24th, 2007, 11:54 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
In PoA the wand was still Owned by Dumbledore. It changed owners when Draco Disarmed Dumbledore in HBP. Then it changed owners when Harry disarmed Draco in DH (Malfoy Manor). When Lupin had disarmed Harry in PoA, Harry wasn't the master of the wand.
Eh? What is true of the Elder Wand is, presumably, true of all wands. If JKR is trying to argue that disarming someone causes their wand to switch loyalties, then Harry's wand should have switched loyalties to Lupin in PoA. It didn't.


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Lunch was six dollars and thirty-one cents at the Lamplighter Inn, that's on Highway Two near Lewis Fork.
That was a tuna fish sandwich on whole wheat, slice of cherry pie, and a cup of coffee.
Damn good food. Diane, if you ever get up this way that cherry pie is worth a stop.

  #72  
Old July 24th, 2007, 11:57 am
adityashah1989  Undisclosed.gif adityashah1989 is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I have come to the conclusion that if anybody kills the previous master, steals from the previous master or disarms the previous master(expelliarmus) then he becomes the owner of the elder wand.

I agree with killing and stealing but the disarming part is a little lame. Its like if someone disarms the owner which is so very easily he or she becomes the owner.


  #73  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:05 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Eh? What is true of the Elder Wand is, presumably, true of all wands. If JKR is trying to argue that disarming someone causes their wand to switch loyalties, then Harry's wand should have switched loyalties to Lupin in PoA. It didn't.
Sorry I misunderstood you then. Alright, Lupin disarmed Harry but didn't intend to take his wand, or conquer him. He was just disarming Harry, but Harry disarmed Malfoy and took his wand by force, thereby conquering him, thus his wand changed Loyalty and became Harry's.

As for the Elder wand, Draco had conquered Dumbledore when he disarmed him, thus he was the new owner. And when Harry disarmed Draco by force, he conquered over him and thus the Elder wand along with Draco's other wand became loyal to Harry.


  #74  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:09 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

I'm sorry, mysterious, but I don't buy it. JKR is trying to frustrate me. Lupin took Harry's wand after he disarmed him in PoA -- he intended to ensure that Harry couldn't use it. The only difference between that scenario and the one at Malfoy Manor is that Harry disappeared with Dobby.


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Lunch was six dollars and thirty-one cents at the Lamplighter Inn, that's on Highway Two near Lewis Fork.
That was a tuna fish sandwich on whole wheat, slice of cherry pie, and a cup of coffee.
Damn good food. Diane, if you ever get up this way that cherry pie is worth a stop.

  #75  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:16 pm
miss_magical  Female.gif miss_magical is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I thought Harry was the rightful owner.
Because he was a decendent of the Percevells, so Harry was the only one who could tame it.

But it also said if you kill the master of the Elder wand then the one who killed will become the wands new master. So Snape killed Dumbledore, So it's Snapes Wand. But then Voldemort became aware of the complications&&he had to kill Snape to become the master, but all of the totally missing the point that Harry is the true master because he is a decendent of the Percevells.


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  #76  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:27 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Lupin took Harry's wand after he disarmed him in PoA -- he intended to ensure that Harry couldn't use it. The only difference between that scenario and the one at Malfoy Manor is that Harry disappeared with Dobby.
Oh, no, thats not the difference, the difference is that Lupin returned Harry's wand back to him whilst Harry didn't do the same with Draco's wand. Harry intended on keeping his new wand, whilst Lupin didn't, he returned it back to the previous owners their wands.


  #77  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:31 pm
Blackcatsmeow  Undisclosed.gif Blackcatsmeow is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I think it is a bit of plot hole. Another seem that seems fishy is that you never hear about this wand once before DH. (Do you?)

I mean it is an undefeatable wand you think there would be a random essay about it or something in at least one of the book. But poof there it is in DH for the first time. I think DH in general showed the stength of JKR's writting, but in places it also showed where she had some room to grow.


  #78  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:50 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by miss_magical View Post
I thought Harry was the rightful owner.
But it also said if you kill the master of the Elder wand then the one who killed will become the wands new master. So Snape killed Dumbledore, So it's Snapes Wand. But then Voldemort became aware of the complications&&he had to kill Snape to become the master, but all of the totally missing the point that Harry is the true master because he is a decendent of the Percevells.

I think that this confusion is caused by the tale of the three brothers. In the tale (if I remember correctly, book at home, me at work) the first brother has the wand stolen from him while he sleeps, the thief then decides to slit his throat 'for good measure'. The wand was the thiefs from the moment he took it from it's unsuspecting master, however in killing him (and probably bragging about doing so) the legend became that you must kill the master to take possession of the wand.

Snape was never the master of the wand. Draco disarmed Dumbledore and became the wands new master. Snape killed a defenseless old man (albeit on his orders), not the master of the Elder wand. When Harry disarmed Draco at Malfoy Manor, the EW's master was defeated and thus the wand recognised Harry as it's true master when Voldemort forced it into battle with him.


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  #79  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:58 pm
CE49  Undisclosed.gif CE49 is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

The one thing I don't understand about this book is what Dumbledore's original plan for the Elder Wand was after his death. Why did he intend for it to come into Snape's possession? Surely that's dangerous, as proven when Voldemort thinks that Snape is the master of the wand, because that's the easiest route to Voldemort getting his hand on the wand. What have I missed!?


  #80  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:04 pm
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

all this stuff makes it look like the wand's got artificial intelligence
i assume that stuning gregorovitch did account for having defeated him, but only for the sake of the credibility of the rest of it.
also does that mean, that everytime a person successfully uses expelliarmus against another person they become the master of the other person's wand? in which case, harry has been using expelliarmus on god knows how many people, all those wands now belong to him? they wont work properly for their initial masters?
i wuld say, that you need to really 'defeat' a person in combat...meaning they should be at your disposal at the end. but even by that line of thought, numerous times so many characters have been at the disposal of others and have been saved and recollected their wands...so the wands still dont work properly for them?
the more i think about it, the more it all seems to have loopholes....


 
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