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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4



 
 
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  #261  
Old August 21st, 2011, 5:52 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Except we know that anybody (or any thing) could kill Harry except for Voldemort. So yes, he was safe within 4 Privet from death by Voldemort, but only him; death eaters or an accident could have easily done him in.
Oh, I disagree. If Death Eaters were able to reach him at Privet Drive, the whole plot pretty much collapses in on itself. If Voldemort was willing to use a servant to escort Harry out of Hogwarts, there would be no reason for him not to use a servant to escort him out of Privet Drive if they were capable of doing it.

No, it certainly seems as though anyone working for Voldemort was unable to reach Harry there.


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  #262  
Old August 21st, 2011, 7:27 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Oh, I disagree. If Death Eaters were able to reach him at Privet Drive, the whole plot pretty much collapses in on itself. If Voldemort was willing to use a servant to escort Harry out of Hogwarts, there would be no reason for him not to use a servant to escort him out of Privet Drive if they were capable of doing it.

No, it certainly seems as though anyone working for Voldemort was unable to reach Harry there.
No one still alive who worked for Voldemort who wasn't already in Azkaban was willing to try anything until after GOF. They all thought Voldemort was dead, and there was no upside for them to do so. Lucius made an attempt to reopen the Chamber of Secrets, but really had no idea how that would work, and it wasn't a direct attack on Harry. Lucius did have chances to kill Harry outside 4 Privet but didn't.

Once Voldemort returned, he made it clear to the DE's that he alone would kill Harry. Voldemort was also still afraid of Dumbledore; with those 2 circumstances, Voldemort actually made it safer for Harry to survive until Voldemort chose to make a move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebreeze
As far as the prophecy is concerned we could go back and forth all day over what the wording really means, 'Either must die at the hands of the other' has always sounded to me to be little more than intent - one of the two will try to force upon both of them a situation where one must kill the other, and never took that to mean Harry could only die at the hand's of Voldemort or vice-versa. Some people take Dumbledore's reluctance to fire a spell that would kill Voldemort at the end of the fifth book as proof Harry must do it, but that's not right. Ignoring his horcruxes, Dumbledore full well could've killed Voldemort there. (I do wonder why he didn't try, though - sending him back to life as Vapormort would surely have been something to go for even if Dumbledore knew he couldn't outright kill him. I'm sure there's an obvious reason to shoot that down but I can't think of it).
I agree with your interpretation of the prophecy. As far as why Dumbledore didn't try to kill Voldy....in addition to the horcrux problem you already noted, Dumbledore thought that when Voldemort used Harry's blood to gain a body in GOF, that Harry now had a better chance to survive an AK from Voldemort, but still destroy the soul-piece -- and not have to deal with the difficulty of tracking Vapormort II, as you point out in your other post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwendolen
Now I'm confused. If either MUST die at the hands of the other, doesn't that mean neither one of them could die unless the other one kills them? Or maybe I just remembered the prophecy wrong.

Anyway, the Privet Drive charm kept Voldemort and the Death Eaters out, so they couldn't harm or kill Harry, or the Dursleys, so it didn't matter if they knew where he was and what he looked like.
On page 836 of OOTP (US hardcover edition), Dumbledore explains to Harry how he extended Lily's blood protection with a charm based on the fact that 4 Privet is a place where Lily's blood dwells -- Petunia's home. He says that there Voldemort can't kill or harm Harry. It doesn't say that Harry can't be harmed or killed by any other means, simply that Voldemort can't get to him while he's there. The fact that all the DE's who survived were in Azkaban, or otherwise unwilling to harm Harry (Lucius for example), made the DE's an unlikely risk until Voldemort returned.

The part of the prophecy that refers to "either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives", is explained by Dumbledore to Harry in HBP pages 509-512. Voldemort only ever heard the very first part of the prophecy -- born as the seventh month dies to those who already defied him three times. It was Voldemort's actions which fulfilled the prophecy -- marking Harry as an equal. But he could have just as easily chosen Neville instead, showing that the prophecy isn't necessarily predictive. Dumbledore posits that if Voldemort had not heard of any of the prophecy at all, things would have been very different, and says not all prophecies in the DOM are fulfilled. Think of the prophecy more like a probability that became real after Voldemort chose to act. If Snape doesn't hear the prophecy, Voldy never knows, Lily & James aren't killed, etc. etc. etc.


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Last edited by HedwigOwl; August 21st, 2011 at 7:30 am. Reason: typo
  #263  
Old August 21st, 2011, 9:28 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Dumbledore posits that if Voldemort had not heard of any of the prophecy at all, things would have been very different, and says not all prophecies in the DOM are fulfilled. Think of the prophecy more like a probability that became real after Voldemort chose to act. If Snape doesn't hear the prophecy, Voldy never knows, Lily & James aren't killed, etc. etc. etc.
That made sense, but I don't think Dumbledore was saying that the prophecy wasn't significant. He did not think divination could be taught, but he did believe it was real magic. The Ministry also believed in it, as they had a hall of prophecies kept under strict security.

The prophecy could have been fulfilled in many different ways, it could have been Neville who fulfilled it, or any other male born in late July, past or future. Harry or Voldemort could walk away from it so it never came true.

If Voldemort didn't act on the prophecy, he wouldn't have marked anyone as an equal, that person wouldn't have gained the power that the Dark Lord knows not, and the one who could vanquish the Dark Lord would never have come into existence.

If the chosen one didn't act on the prophecy, the prophecy wouldn't come true, and there would be no-one who could vanquish the Dark Lord.

Harry could have chosen to walk away and not confront Voldemort, but if the prophecy was real it meant Voldemort would only die if the terms of the prophecy were fulfilled.


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  #264  
Old August 21st, 2011, 10:02 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I think any male child had to be born after the Prophecy was made for the Prophecy says "The one with the Power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... ". Also that male child had to be born to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort, so I guess that would narrow the list of male children who could be probables for the Prophecy.


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  #265  
Old August 21st, 2011, 6:04 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by inthebreeze View Post
I remember writing a post about that last point on here once, how weird it was upon reflection that Dumbledore sent Hagrid to pick up the Philosopher's Stone when he had Harry with him. A load of people shouted me down and pulled the usual 'Dumbledore trusts Hagrid with his life' line to justify Dumbledore's decision, as though having faith in Hagrid's intentions made it alright sending a wandless teenager who's known he's a wizard for all of 24 hours with Hagrid, a man with a second-year's education and an umbrella concealing a wand that for all we know is broken in half when he knew a dark wizard was going after the Stone. So yes, not exactly constant vigilance.
A thought that came to my mind while reading this was it would look suspicious if Hagrid went to the bank just to get the stone, but going there with Harry people would assume he's just getting Harry's money. They wouldn't suspect he had the stone or anything like that.


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  #266  
Old August 21st, 2011, 11:24 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
No one still alive who worked for Voldemort who wasn't already in Azkaban was willing to try anything until after GOF. They all thought Voldemort was dead, and there was no upside for them to do so. Lucius made an attempt to reopen the Chamber of Secrets, but really had no idea how that would work, and it wasn't a direct attack on Harry. Lucius did have chances to kill Harry outside 4 Privet but didn't.

Once Voldemort returned, he made it clear to the DE's that he alone would kill Harry. Voldemort was also still afraid of Dumbledore; with those 2 circumstances, Voldemort actually made it safer for Harry to survive until Voldemort chose to make a move.
I still disagree. There is a big distinction between being the one to kill Harry Potter and being the one to capture him. Voldemort shows that he is willing to have other people bring Harry Potter to him with his plot in GoF, and again with having his people stationed outside of 12 Grimmauld Place, ready to capture him if they could.


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  #267  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 1:34 am
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Re: How did people know about his scar?

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Originally Posted by Delos View Post
Also, how did everyone know what happened so fast? How did everyone know by the very next day that Voldemort was defeated? I mean, you go to the Godric's Hollow and see Lily and James dead. Wouldn't you just assume that he had killed them and left. It just seems a little odd how quickly word about Voldemort's defeat. And it's strange how readily everyone excepted the idea of a super powered baby blew him up.
The book states that there were numerous reports of people breaking out of a trancelike state that day, i.e. no longer imperioused. Presumably, there might have been other spells that suddenly no longer held. This could only happen if Voldemort had died or lost much of his powers.

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
No one still alive who worked for Voldemort who wasn't already in Azkaban was willing to try anything until after GOF. They all thought Voldemort was dead, and there was no upside for them to do so. Lucius made an attempt to reopen the Chamber of Secrets, but really had no idea how that would work, and it wasn't a direct attack on Harry. Lucius did have chances to kill Harry outside 4 Privet but didn't.
At the time Dumbledore placed Harry at Privet Drive, Bellatrix, Rodolphus, and Barty Crouch Jr were still at large for several days or weeks afterwards. They targetted the Longbottoms, and certainly would have tried to target Harry next were they not captured.

Dumbledore states in the Lost Prophecy chapter that his priority was to keep Harry safe from Death Eaters still at large, so it sounds like Privet Drive protection extended to all of Voldemort's followers.


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  #268  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 4:45 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I'm reading DH and I have some questions.

1- Harry seems to be 'trapped' at #4 Privet and they have to use dangerous measures to get him out. Why does he go back to Privet after his sixth year? Why not go directly to the Burrow? Of course they would still need to send someone to help the Dursleys.

2- How did Harry get back to the Dursleys' from Hogwarts? Did he have MoM protection because it had not yet fallen?


Questions about using 7 Harrys to get him away from #4 Privet:

3- The point of getting Harry to the safe house is for him to use a portkey back to the Burrow. Why doesn't someone bring a portkey directly to Harry at the Dursleys'?


4- Why can't Harry disapparate from the Dursleys'? I realise he has the Trace on him. So this brings more questions.

A- If Harry or someone else in the house uses magic, it sets of the Trace. Will this allow Voldemort/Death Eaters/Imperiused MoM officials to enter the house? If so, how? Does the charm on the house break because of this?

B- Does it really matter if the Trace is set off? Harry will be gone instantly anyway. Or does the Trace allow the MoM to know Harry's destination exactly? If so, how does this work? Would apparating at the Burrow set of the Trace? But how could they know it's Harry using magic? The Trace seems to work by geography - underage Ginny is there as well, and there are other of age wizards there.


5- Why don't they move Harry in Muggle transportation like a car? Would the Death Eaters really be able to find him if he did this?

It seems like they are taking unnessacery risk.


Also, questions relating to Snape.

6- It is clear Voldemort knows when Harry's is being moved because of Snape. Who is his source they speak of in chapter 1?

7- Doesn't Snape turn out being a good guy in the end? Why would he allow Voldemort access to Harry?

Responses are much appreciated


  #269  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 5:02 am
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Re: How did people know about his scar?

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Originally Posted by LordGrindelwald View Post
At the time Dumbledore placed Harry at Privet Drive, Bellatrix, Rodolphus, and Barty Crouch Jr were still at large for several days or weeks afterwards. They targetted the Longbottoms, and certainly would have tried to target Harry next were they not captured.

Dumbledore states in the Lost Prophecy chapter that his priority was to keep Harry safe from Death Eaters still at large, so it sounds like Privet Drive protection extended to all of Voldemort's followers.
That's logical; but I don't find Dumbledore saying that in the book relative to the prophecy; he only refers to Voldemort (page 836, HBP US hardcover edition).

He does mention the DE's being a danger, but his explanation about the blood protection is very specific to Voldemort. Perhaps it's an inconsistency.


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  #270  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 5:06 am
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Re: How did people know about his scar?

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
That's logical; but I don't find Dumbledore saying that in the book relative to the prophecy; he only refers to Voldemort (page 836, HBP US hardcover edition).

He does mention the DE's being a danger, but his explanation about the blood protection is very specific to Voldemort. Perhaps it's an inconsistency.
I think it is more synecdoche than inconsistency. Dumbledore was a smart man, and a smart man wouldn't expect that protecting Harry from Voldemort's person was enough to keep him safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senators View Post
I'm reading DH and I have some questions.

1- Harry seems to be 'trapped' at #4 Privet and they have to use dangerous measures to get him out. Why does he go back to Privet after his sixth year? Why not go directly to the Burrow? Of course they would still need to send someone to help the Dursleys.
I think that the main reason is that it would give the DEs more opportunity to find him and begin the breaking down of his protections. I don't think they expected that they could keep Harry safe all summer without resorting to the Fidelius Charm, and I don't think they wanted to use that unless they absolutely had to, as it would be a hindrance to their lives both during and after the war.

Quote:
2- How did Harry get back to the Dursleys' from Hogwarts? Did he have MoM protection because it had not yet fallen?
The Ministry still had a decent grip on the community at that time- enough at least to see Harry home. Dumbledore's death was the start of its demise, though.

Quote:
3- The point of getting Harry to the safe house is for him to use a portkey back to the Burrow. Why doesn't someone bring a portkey directly to Harry at the Dursleys'?
Moody's explanation implies that this would not be possible. Possibly, one cannot move a portkey after it has been set. More likely, I feel, is that a charm was placed over the property to prevent portkeys leaving. I think that such a charm was likely in place at Hogwarts as well, as the anti-Apparition charm would be pretty redundant if it didn't exist.

Quote:
4- Why can't Harry disapparate from the Dursleys'? I realise he has the Trace on him. So this brings more questions.

A- If Harry or someone else in the house uses magic, it sets of the Trace. Will this allow Voldemort/Death Eaters/Imperiused MoM officials to enter the house? If so, how? Does the charm on the house break because of this?

B- Does it really matter if the Trace is set off? Harry will be gone instantly anyway. Or does the Trace allow the MoM to know Harry's destination exactly? If so, how does this work? Would apparating at the Burrow set of the Trace? But how could they know it's Harry using magic? The Trace seems to work by geography - underage Ginny is there as well, and there are other of age wizards there.
It is possible that if the Trace was activated by Apparition, it would show both Harry's departure and arrival, but I don't think that that is the likely solution. Moody's statements seem to indicate that it really was impossible for him to apparate, and that the Ministry were doing their level best to prevent him from moving, so I think it is much more likely that they had simply cast an anti-Apparition spell over the general area, just like what was over the Hogwarts grounds.

Quote:
5- Why don't they move Harry in Muggle transportation like a car? Would the Death Eaters really be able to find him if he did this?
Yes, and they would have next to no protection or manoeuvrability in that case.

Quote:
6- It is clear Voldemort knows when Harry's is being moved because of Snape. Who is his source they speak of in chapter 1?
If I remember correctly, and it is very possible that I don't, there was no actual source. Snape, as Dumbledore's idea, had confunded Mundungus to hatch the Seven Potters plan and the date of departure to the Order.

Quote:
7- Doesn't Snape turn out being a good guy in the end? Why would he allow Voldemort access to Harry?
In the Prince's Tale, I believe that Dumbledore tells him that he would do well to play his part in order to protect himself. Snape's survival was vital to Voldemort's plan because he needed to be around to tell Harry of his fate at the very end; thus, Dumbledore needed to make sure that Snape stayed on Voldemort's good side.

Responses are much appreciated[/quote]


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Last edited by willfitz; August 22nd, 2011 at 5:23 am.
  #271  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 6:39 pm
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Re: How did people know about his scar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by senators View Post
1- Harry seems to be 'trapped' at #4 Privet and they have to use dangerous measures to get him out. Why does he go back to Privet after his sixth year? Why not go directly to the Burrow? Of course they would still need to send someone to help the Dursleys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz View Post

I think that the main reason is that it would give the DEs more opportunity to find him and begin the breaking down of his protections. I don't think they expected that they could keep Harry safe all summer without resorting to the Fidelius Charm, and I don't think they wanted to use that unless they absolutely had to, as it would be a hindrance to their lives both during and after the war.
I believe he also needed to return to Privet Drive in order to take advantage of Lily's protection one more time. He needed to call Privet Drive 'home' for the summer so that he would be protected up until the day he officially left.


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  #272  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 7:22 pm
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Re: How did people know about his scar?

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Originally Posted by Nnylarak View Post
I believe he also needed to return to Privet Drive in order to take advantage of Lily's protection one more time. He needed to call Privet Drive 'home' for the summer so that he would be protected up until the day he officially left.
I think that's right - if he'd said goodbye forever before the start of his last year at Hogwarts, the Privet Drive protection would have broken then. That would have left the Dursley's vulnerable as well as Harry, so it was better to extend the protection as long as possible.

There was no reason to take Hedwig with them. They could have have sent her to deliver a letter.


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  #273  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 8:04 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Abbsalah View Post
inthebreeze -- perhaps the only Parselmouths are direct descendants from Slytherin himself? It doesn't seem like the Gaunts went to Hogwarts, from the memory we got of them--at least not that generation. Perhaps that line, which is the only family of Parselmouths we know of in the books, stopped going to Hogwarts several generations back? I'm not positive this 100% explains it, but it might work.
What about Ron being able to speak it in the end? That's a big hole.


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  #274  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 8:28 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by tweak1 View Post
What about Ron being able to speak it in the end? That's a big hole.
That was explained. Ron heard Harry ask the locket to open in Parseltongue, so he imitated the sound for the Chamber of Secrets.


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  #275  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 8:46 pm
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Re: How did people know about his scar?

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Originally Posted by Gwendolen View Post
There was no reason to take Hedwig with them. They could have have sent her to deliver a letter.
I always thought that someone should address a letter to Voldemort, give it to Hedwig, and just follow her until they found him. Then get him.


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  #276  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 9:03 pm
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Re: How did people know about his scar?

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Originally Posted by ID824 View Post
I always thought that someone should address a letter to Voldemort, give it to Hedwig, and just follow her until they found him. Then get him.
Or Voldemort could send a letter to Harry, and that would be it for Harry.

I think owl magic must include anti following spells.


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  #277  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 9:30 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I think it's just anti-boring book spells.


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Old August 22nd, 2011, 9:54 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I'm re-reading HBP and up to the House of Gaunt chapter and I really can't buy Ron speaking Parceltongue anymore. In this chapter, it is noted that Bob Odgen, someone who cannot speak parceltongue can only hear a whole lot of hissing and spitting, he can't even make out words. How could Ron make out words when all non-parcelmouths can hear are hissing and spitting?

The only saving grace is they had the Cup horcrux and perhaps Ron was temporarily possessed by the piece of Riddle's soul.


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  #279  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 10:14 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath View Post
I'm re-reading HBP and up to the House of Gaunt chapter and I really can't buy Ron speaking Parceltongue anymore. In this chapter, it is noted that Bob Odgen, someone who cannot speak parceltongue can only hear a whole lot of hissing and spitting, he can't even make out words. How could Ron make out words when all non-parcelmouths can hear are hissing and spitting?

The only saving grace is they had the Cup horcrux and perhaps Ron was temporarily possessed by the piece of Riddle's soul.
This bothered me too, but there's nothing in the story, at least not that I remember, that states Ron knew what he was saying. He just did his best to mimic the same noises that Harry made. I would equate this to someone who can reproduce a cat's "meow" that sounds realistic. They don't know what they're saying, but that doesn't mean it doesn't sound like a cat.


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  #280  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 10:15 pm
inthebreeze  Male.gif inthebreeze is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I'll never buy that part of the book either. I've read countless arguments for Ron being able to speak it in DH and none of them have ever held any water whatsoever. It's simply a plot hole.


 
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