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Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2



 
 
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  #61  
Old January 10th, 2007, 4:44 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by HesHPfan View Post
It might be possible to use the pensieve again, that possibility is discussed at this thread: Can Harry still use Dumbledore's Pensieve?

It's said somewhere that the portraits can only use catch prases often used by the person. However we have seen portraits giving messages, that feels as a contridiction... maybe there are various levels of magical paintings. If there are, it's likely Dumbledore will have a version which could possibly give advice? [I know this is all based on speculation]
If there are various levels of the paintings than obviously DD will have a high level. We know that Phineas was definitely a high level because he showed emotion and other intelligent things that show a high level of interaction. I would say that Phineas represents the highest level of interaction that a portrait can have. And most of the other portraits just sleep and give the occasional grunt. (ithink there are two other portraits that go to st.mungos and the ministry??)


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  #62  
Old January 10th, 2007, 10:48 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

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rigdoctorbri:
Of course we have seen Dumbledore's portrait...on the backs of many Chocolate Frog Trading Cards. Remember when Harry and Ron first meet and Harry discovers Chocolate Frogs? He said, "He's gone!", to which Ron replied, "Well you can't expect him to hang around all day!"
Yeah, I said "Well if there is we haven't seen it. The only other place we've seen of picture of DD is on the back of the chocolate frog cards.


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  #63  
Old January 10th, 2007, 11:01 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

There seems to be three levels of these magical pictures/paintings.

level 1- Chocolate Frog cards: lowest level of interaction, seem to just sit around, sleep, and leave their image.

level 2- Weasley family photo, old order picture: More interactive, like the old order picture, can move more animately and react to people who talk to them (but can't talk).

level 3- Phineas, fat lady: Can talk, have intelligent reactions and emotions, enter other's portraits, and as of now have always been paintings, not pictures.

We know that headmaster/mistress paintings are level 3's, so it can be assumed that everything Phineas or the fat lady has done can be done by dumbledore's portrait. So there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on the portraits personality, memories, or ideas because Phineas expresses his (assumed) original ideas. I doubt that dumbledore will suddenly tell everything just because harry asks, regardless that he has a portrait now.


  #64  
Old January 11th, 2007, 12:14 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

i think if harry cant communicate to dumbledore in at least one of those ways hes in big trouble. i dont think jkr wouldve killed him off without a loophole. i think that the portrait of dumbledore in the heads office will be essential...but that also means that harry does have to return to hogwarts at some point. i dont know if harry had realised at the end of hbp that he could communicate with dumbledore through the portrait.


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  #65  
Old January 11th, 2007, 12:19 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pensive View Post
There seems to be three levels of these magical pictures/paintings.

level 1- Chocolate Frog cards: lowest level of interaction, seem to just sit around, sleep, and leave their image.

level 2- Weasley family photo, old order picture: More interactive, like the old order picture, can move more animately and react to people who talk to them (but can't talk).

level 3- Phineas, fat lady: Can talk, have intelligent reactions and emotions, enter other's portraits, and as of now have always been paintings, not pictures.

We know that headmaster/mistress paintings are level 3's, so it can be assumed that everything Phineas or the fat lady has done can be done by dumbledore's portrait. So there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on the portraits personality, memories, or ideas because Phineas expresses his (assumed) original ideas. I doubt that dumbledore will suddenly tell everything just because harry asks, regardless that he has a portrait now.

I think a more general grouping is paintings and photo's. Photo's, although they move magically, don't seem to have the essence of the person within them, as the paintings do. The photo's are more likely to have a jinx or charm on them that animate the picture, where as paintings, I believe, have stronger magic that comes from the witch or wizard themselves. I think there's a bit of a link between the ghosts and the paintings, in the way they are both a 'print' of the person's life that lives on after their death. As DD sees death as 'the next big adventure' I do wonder how much of himself he left imprinted in the painting.


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  #66  
Old January 11th, 2007, 12:47 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by HesHPfan View Post
It's said somewhere that the portraits can only use catch prases often used by the person. However we have seen portraits giving messages, that feels as a contridiction... maybe there are various levels of magical paintings. If there are, it's likely Dumbledore will have a version which could possibly give advice? [I know this is all based on speculation]
We did see that the portraits did quite a lot, Dumbledore used them quite effectively, but I don't think that advice was ever given from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Araminta View Post
i think if harry cant communicate to dumbledore in at least one of those ways hes in big trouble. i dont think jkr wouldve killed him off without a loophole. i think that the portrait of dumbledore in the heads office will be essential...but that also means that harry does have to return to hogwarts at some point. i dont know if harry had realised at the end of hbp that he could communicate with dumbledore through the portrait.
JK has already said that they are only a shadow of the person when they were alive and can only really say things that they have said when they were alive. It could be that this is all that is needed.
I don't think that Harry is going to be able to walk up to the portrait, like he did when Dumbledore was alive, put a question to it and get an answer.
However if he is talking, it could be that the portrait could repeat something that Dumbledore said when he was alive, and this could jangle Harry's memory.
Just a thought.


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  #67  
Old January 11th, 2007, 12:51 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pensive View Post
There seems to be three levels of these magical pictures/paintings.

level 1- Chocolate Frog cards: lowest level of interaction, seem to just sit around, sleep, and leave their image.

level 2- Weasley family photo, old order picture: More interactive, like the old order picture, can move more animately and react to people who talk to them (but can't talk).

level 3- Phineas, fat lady: Can talk, have intelligent reactions and emotions, enter other's portraits, and as of now have always been paintings, not pictures.

We know that headmaster/mistress paintings are level 3's, so it can be assumed that everything Phineas or the fat lady has done can be done by dumbledore's portrait. So there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on the portraits personality, memories, or ideas because Phineas expresses his (assumed) original ideas. I doubt that dumbledore will suddenly tell everything just because harry asks, regardless that he has a portrait now.
That is a great way to categorize the three levels. However, there is a difference between the Portraits of the Heads and Paintings like the Fat Lady or Sir Cadogan. The portraits are pics of real people... Where as the other various paintings around the castle that can talk and move and interact are fictional pictures.


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  #68  
Old January 11th, 2007, 1:04 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuer_lisse
there cant be wizards who are "Artists" because what do they do? paint a portrait of someone and then it automatically appears when they die?
You are just thinking of the headmaster/headmistress portraits. There are thousands of other portraits, and how do they get made? By a flick of a wand? Somehow, I doubt that even magic can be as precise as a human hand (remember, Dumbledore admits that music is beyond wizards' powers control, so why can't art/paintings?), so some wizards may become artists (like Dean Thomas, for instance, who has always been good with a quill).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuer_lisse
That is a great way to categorize the three levels. However, there is a difference between the Portraits of the Heads and Paintings like the Fat Lady or Sir Cadogan. The portraits are pics of real people... Where as the other various paintings around the castle that can talk and move and interact are fictional pictures.
That is a mere assumption. For all we know Sir Cadogan was a wizard who dreamed of being a knight back in medieval times. Also, the Fat Lady could easily be Hepzibah Smith (easily, as in it is a possibility - we do not have any evidence, so let us not get on that topic), and all of the other portraits could be deceased people, or atleast they may have been inspired by real people.


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  #69  
Old January 11th, 2007, 6:00 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

I don't see why Dumbledore's Portrait should be the only one that doesn't speak... all the other headmater/mistress' portraits do!

In fact... it seems that ALL portraits (not pictures or cards) in the magical world can interact. Perhaps the only reason that DD was 'sleeping' in his portrait when we see it in HBP is because he was just killed.

It would be interesting to know if there were any other portraits of Dumbledore.. like Phineas who could travel between his portrait in the DD's office and Grimauld (sp.?) place.


  #70  
Old January 11th, 2007, 6:14 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

D.D. is a famous. Therefore he should be able to run around to all sorts of his other paintings. This might be very important.


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  #71  
Old January 11th, 2007, 6:44 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

of course his portrait can speak.... but, that's not the question. the question is what is going to be able to tell harry? obviously, it can't tell him everything he needs to know, or the book would be a 5 pages long. but, if DD has multiple paintings (which i'm sure he will) maybe he can use these to gather information that can help harry. as far as things he knew when he was alive, i think DD already told harry everything he knows that would be important. when he told harry his theory about the other horcruxes, he would have given him any other relevant information because he knew that ultimately it would become harry's responsibility. so even if the painting does have DD's memories, i don't think it will have anything new to tell harry.


  #72  
Old January 11th, 2007, 11:05 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by herm_own_ninny View Post
if DD has multiple paintings (which i'm sure he will) maybe he can use these to gather information that can help harry.
This would be fair as this is certainly how Dumbledore got some of his information.
I wonder where the other portraits would be? Not in the Ministry, I bet!


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  #73  
Old January 11th, 2007, 2:47 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by herm_own_ninny View Post
of course his portrait can speak.... but, that's not the question. the question is what is going to be able to tell harry? obviously, it can't tell him everything he needs to know, or the book would be a 5 pages long. but, if DD has multiple paintings (which i'm sure he will) maybe he can use these to gather information that can help harry. as far as things he knew when he was alive, i think DD already told harry everything he knows that would be important. when he told harry his theory about the other horcruxes, he would have given him any other relevant information because he knew that ultimately it would become harry's responsibility. so even if the painting does have DD's memories, i don't think it will have anything new to tell harry.
Harry most certainly does not know everything DD new aobut the horcrux theory. Harry doesnt even know how to destroy one once he finds it. Im sure DD portrait will have plenty of info to offer harry


  #74  
Old January 11th, 2007, 2:53 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Why wouldn't it be able to speak? imo DD's portrait will play a huge role in DH. also imo portrait DD will tell Harry why he was killed by Snape and make Harry and the rest of the OOTP realize that Snape is not a bad guy he was just doing as was told.


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  #75  
Old January 11th, 2007, 3:26 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

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Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
I wonder where the other portraits would be? Not in the Ministry, I bet!
Dumbledore's relations with the Ministry of Magic were not that great when he died. But since he was head of the Wizengamot, had been decorated a lot and was Supreme Mugwump of the International Confideration of Wizards, it's almost impossible to imagine that they can refuse to house a painting of such an important wizard. But if Scrimgeour is bitter, he probably would do anything in his power to prevent it.

It has been suggested that Aberforth might have a portrait.


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  #76  
Old January 12th, 2007, 3:26 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
You are just thinking of the headmaster/headmistress portraits. There are thousands of other portraits, and how do they get made? By a flick of a wand? Somehow, I doubt that even magic can be as precise as a human hand (remember, Dumbledore admits that music is beyond wizards' powers control, so why can't art/paintings?), so some wizards may become artists (like Dean Thomas, for instance, who has always been good with a quill).

That is a mere assumption. For all we know Sir Cadogan was a wizard who dreamed of being a knight back in medieval times. Also, the Fat Lady could easily be Hepzibah Smith (easily, as in it is a possibility - we do not have any evidence, so let us not get on that topic), and all of the other portraits could be deceased people, or atleast they may have been inspired by real people.

It is also an assumption that they were real people... do you think that there were really a bunch of hogs in mud (a picture in hogwarts) and they were brought to life by an "artist", mabye the hogs can grunt with you when they try to talk to you...?


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  #77  
Old January 12th, 2007, 9:17 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

I think the portrait will be important and can not only recall memories but also form their own opinions on subjects.

The pensieve gives me concern. I could be important to Harry, but just in terms of security it must be addressed. A ton of very important memories are located in there that I'm sure V would love to get his hands on, including the full prophecy.

It would have been great if DD just became a ghost. But I guess you have to be afraid of dying.

There are so many things that bothered me at the end of HBP.

1) Can DD really have been THAT wrong about Snape? There has got to be something more there. Even in the hospital wing professor Mcgonagall said that DD always said he had an iron clad reason for trusting Snape. Harry thought it was because Snape was "sorry" about telling V about the prophecy. It couldn't be that trivial.

I refuse to believe that even without a wand and even weakened, DD couldn't have taken Malfoy. He already sensed the hesitation in him. He could have taken Malfoy, got his wand back and been ready to fight when the Death Eaters showed up. Or he would have had time to just hop back on the broomstick and get off the tower. Personally, I think it might have been PLANNED!

[pure speculation here:] What if Dumbledore WANTED TO DIE. What if Snape really was acting on Dumbledore's orders in even making the unbreakable vow? Remember the arguement in the forest between DD and Snape? DD argued "you said you would do it!" What if he was talking about Snape having to kill Dumbledore? Is there some ancient magic that we don't know about, something that Dumbledore knew would be essential in helping Harry reach that final stage of being able to face Voldemort? Does giving up his life somehow provide another layer of protection for Harry?

2) Where the heck was Slughorn during the fighting?

3) They (mostly Harry) stunned a bunch of the Death Eaters as he was chasing after Snape. What happened to them? The Ministery didn't show up until later. Wouldn't the spells have worn off? Didn't one of them just trip over her brother? There seems to be a lot of blanks here.

4) I understand that Harry has this renewed resolve to find the Horcruxes, avenge the death of those he loves and destroy Voldemort. But I'm sorry to say that he DOES seem a little arrogant.

Forget about defeating Voldemort for a second. He couldn't even beat Snape (in fact couldn't even land a single spell). He has never been good at Occlumency which we just realized will be essential to defeating Snape since he knows the spells Harry is going to use before Harry says them.

Harry needed Snape's book to be decent at potions. He doesn't have the desire to study like Hermione does. Voldemort was gone for YEARS honing and improving his skills after leaving Hogwarts. Snape was inventing his own spells in school and continued to expand his knowledge of the Dark Arts for many years. Even DD's power didn't come out of nowhere. It took years of practice. He isn't even as powerful as Prof. Mcgonagall, or Moody, more less Voldemort.

And that is assuming he even gets that far. He said himself that he was lucky and has been saved each time he has faced Voldemort. Even finding the "fake" Horcrux nearly killed DD and Harry. But now suddenly he thinks he can do all of this alone?!! It might be brave and noble but it is also foolish. Voldemort has an army, Harry should be building the same. He should take over control of the Order and combine it with the D.A. and maybe he'll have a fighting chance. Ron and Hermione will be by his side but only because they refused to accept No for an answer. He wanted to do it all alone.

Heck, at the very least he should be smart about it and go to Moody, Mcgonagall, and Slughorn and say "Teach me everything you know to prepare me for my final battle". I mean, what's the rush (other than the fact that there is only one more book)?

This raw emotion and complete irrational thinking is the one thing that drives me absolutely CRAZY about Harry. Why can't he "plan" and "prepare" for once? Can't he ever calm down and think logically? I know he is still a kid, but I just wish he wouldn't always act like one.


5) Does it bother anybody that Harry really has no problems using the unforgiveable curses? DD was powerful but he didn't use them. Is Harry really as "pure" as people make him out to be? Would he use AK if given the chance? I have no doubt that he would (and will).

I'm not going to deny the genius of JKR so I'm sure it will all work out but I really hope the conclusion is remotely believable.



Last edited by rtiger; January 12th, 2007 at 10:15 pm. Reason: #1 explained further
  #78  
Old January 12th, 2007, 9:35 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Exactly, what is the rush? He could spend all the time in the world getting educated by his teachers so that he is fully prepared to fight with LV, but of course that wont happen, he is just gonna go running off right away...


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  #79  
Old January 13th, 2007, 2:24 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

Quote:
rtiger:
1) Can DD really have been THAT wrong about Snape? There has got to be something more there. Even in the hospital wing professor Mcgonagall said that DD always said he had an iron clad reason for trusting Snape. Harry thought it was because Snape was "sorry" about telling V about the prophecy. It couldn't be that trivial.
Yeah, Dumbledore's not that stupid. I mean, if Voldemort just walked up and said he was sorry, DD wouldn't believe them. And, when Voldemort wanted a job, and just said that he wanted to work at Hogwarts, DD didn't believe him then. So why is Snape any different? If DD's death was planned, then why did he look so miserable when Snape killed him? Was it just for show? Personally, I hope it wasn't, it just doesn't seem right that way.

Quote:
2) Where the heck was Slughorn during the fighting?
Probably hiding somewhere, I forget, was he even at the funeral? Maybe he ran away when the death eaters came and when to hide somewhere. Unless he ran away with them, which I doubt, but maybe they forced him to go with them or something.

Quote:
3) They (mostly Harry) stunned a bunch of the Death Eaters as he was chasing after Snape. What happened to them? The Ministery didn't show up until later. Wouldn't the spells have worn off? Didn't one of them just trip over her brother? There seems to be a lot of blanks here.
Yeah, some people think that the seventh book will start right after the funeral. That would explain why we don't know what happened to the death eaters.

Quote:
4) I understand that Harry has this renewed resolve to find the Horcruxes, avenge the death of those he loves and destroy Voldemort. But I'm sorry to say that he DOES seem a little arrogant.
Yeah, but I think that he will think twice this time before rushing into things after what happened at the Ministry in OOTP. Maybe on the way, he will work on silent spells. I think Herminone has done it, so she can help him with that. He definitly won't be able to destroy all of the Horcruxes and Voldemort the way he is know. He needs to prepare more.

Quote:
5) Does it bother anybody that Harry really has no problems using the unforgiveable curses? DD was powerful but he didn't use them. Is Harry really as "pure" as people make him out to be? Would he use AK if given the chance? I have no doubt that he would (and will).
I think that he was just stressed out after what happened. And he was full of so much rage at Bellatrix for killing Sirius. Though I hope that he doesn't have anger issues, he seemed to lose his temper a lot in OOTP, That's not a good thing for facing Voldemort. If there's one thing that DD has shown, it's that you cannot lose control of yourself when facing Voldemort. If anything, you need to make him lose control.


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Old January 13th, 2007, 2:33 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Portrait : Can it speak? Will it be able to help Harry? v2

1) There must be a better reason than just Snape showing remorse for his actions...

2) Slughorn may be lost to the Order forever if he split once things heated up. He is either long gone or in deep trouble with the Order.

3) It seems as if Hogwarts wasnt really under Order control at the end of HBP so they probably escaped; I dont think they are mentioned anywhere!?

4)He is on the verge of just running off and fighting, i think that his friends and teachers will knock some sense into him and make sure he is more prepared. He has too be arrogant, he is in the biggest mystery ever...

5) The last link with your dead parents has just been killed... wouldn't you be angry with those who were responsible of robbing that from you?

OotP was a big book for harry, he learned a lot


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