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How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?



 
 
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Old June 5th, 2007, 5:15 pm
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How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

I came across something in HBP yesterday, and while it might not be important at all to the overall plot, it's still bugging me because it just doesn't add up.

When Dumbledore is telling Harry his speculations on what Voldemort's Horcruxes might be, he says:

HBP, p. 506, US"I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.

"As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux."


I assumed the old Muggle man was Frank Bryce, the caretaker at the Riddle house, and so I was wondering how Dumbledore came to know of his murder. Harry saw it in a dream, but I don't remember if he ever told Dumbledore this. He does, however, tell Dumbledore at the end of GoF that an old man came out of the wand with his parents, and Cedric Diggory and Bertha Jorkins. Only this brings us to another problem...

Voldemort didn't use Nagini to kill Frank Bryce; he used Avada Kedavra.

GoF, p. 15, USAnd then the chair was facing Frank, and he saw what was sitting in it. His walking stick fell to the floor with a clatter. He opened his mouth and let out a scream. He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor.


Nagini wasn't the murder weapon, her role in the whole thing was limited to delivering intel:

GoF, p. 13, US"Nagini has interesting news, Wormtail," it said.

"In-indeed, My Lord?" said Wormtail.

"Indeed, yes," said the voice. "According to Nagini, there is an old Muggle standing right outside this room, listening to every word we say."


And then there's at least a page of dialogue before Frank kicks it.

So, is Frank Bryce the old Muggle man Dumbledore was talking about? If so, why would he think Voldemort used Nagini to kill him? Or is there some other old Muggle man Voldemort actually did use the snake to kill in the interim? If so, who is he, and might he be in any way important to the plot?

And, come to think of it (though this might be a topic for another thread), when did Voldemort acquire Nagini anyway? Did he have her before his downfall? Was she with him all those years in the forests of Albania, and then what would he have done with her while he was living on the back of Quirrell's head?

Any thoughts on this or the old Muggle man welcome.


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Old June 5th, 2007, 5:20 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

he knew about the murder due to the muggle newspapers, he says so in GoF. He probably didn't know very much, but found out as much as possible. I would guess he may have visited there when he found out how close it was to the gaunts home.


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Old June 5th, 2007, 5:24 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

I think he meant that he used Nagini's information of the old man being outside. If Nagini hadn't been there, Frank Bryce would have run away as Wormtail approached the door.


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Old June 5th, 2007, 5:31 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

GoF, The Pensieve, Pages 601 and 602, American, HB"And there was a third disappearancec, one which the Ministry, I regret to say, do not consider of any importance, for it concerns a Muggle. His name was Frank Bryce, he lived in the village where Voldemort's father grew up, and he has not been seen since last August. You see, I read the Muggle newspapers, unlike most of my Ministry friends."

Thus, Dumbledore found out about Frank through the Muggle newspapers (and, most likely, Bob Ogden's memory secured the importance of this murder).

I would assume the old Muggle man is Frank Bryce, but Dumbledore's wording is slightly confusing. Nagini did not kill Frank, but she did alert Voldemort of Frank, which is 'using' her to kill, in a way. Now, how Dumbledore knew this, we cannot be certain. However, he says he had been in touch with Sirius, and Harry had told Sirius the dream. Thus, Dumbledore probably heard about it from Sirius.


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Last edited by MrSleepyHead; June 5th, 2007 at 5:43 pm.
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Old June 5th, 2007, 5:34 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alyssareiner
he knew about the murder due to the muggle newspapers, he says so in GoF.
Do you remember the page number or what chapter this was in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJFinch
I think he meant that he used Nagini's information of the old man being outside.
But how would he have known this?


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Old June 5th, 2007, 5:36 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Well, Harry told Sirius the dream, and Sirius told Dumbledore. DD says that Harry isn't the only person to be in contact with Sirius, and he knew about the dream. And at the point of his dream, Harry didn't know about the AK curse. Frank was screaming to loudly to hear it, if I recall correctly.


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Old June 5th, 2007, 5:56 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Thanks for finding that quote, MrSleepyHead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead
Now, how Dumbledore knew this, we cannot be certain. However, he says he had been in touch with Sirius, and Harry had told Sirius the dream. Thus, Dumbledore probably heard about it from Sirius.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padfoots_godson
Well, Harry told Sirius the dream, and Sirius told Dumbledore. DD says that Harry isn't the only person to be in contact with Sirius, and he knew about the dream.
But Harry didn't tell Sirius what happened in the dream ... did he? All I can find are the letter he wrote, saying his scar had hurt ... and then Sirius wrote back saying he was flying north. They met in the cave and discussed the Crouchs and some other stuff, but I don't see any details about the dream there either. Unless I'm missing something. Does anyone remember if it ever says or suggests anywhere that Harry told Sirius the contents of the dream?


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Old June 5th, 2007, 6:02 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

This question has bothered me to no end for quite some time. I can't remember, but I think my current conclusion was that Snape had gotten the information from Wormtail and relayed it to Dumbledore. Or what if Dumbledore just yanked it out of Harry's head during a conversation, a class, or while Harry was sleeping or something?


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Old June 5th, 2007, 6:05 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capella_black
But Harry didn't tell Sirius what happened in the dream ... did he? All I can find are the letter he wrote, saying his scar had hurt ... and then Sirius wrote back saying he was flying north. They met in the cave and discussed the Crouchs and some other stuff, but I don't see any details about the dream there either. Unless I'm missing something. Does anyone remember if it ever says or suggests anywhere that Harry told Sirius the contents of the dream?
Ah, quite right. I was recalling Harry debating whether he should tell about the dream:
GoF, The Scar, Page 25, American, HBYes, thought Harry, that looked all right. There was no point putting in the dream; he didn't want it to look as though he was too worried.

I, also, cannot find if he ever told anyone about the dream he had in Privet Drive. Therefore, perhaps Dumbledore used Legilimency? However, since Dumbledore stated this in HBP, he might have talked to Harry or used Legilimency on him to see why his scar hurt. Dumbledore, at least, knew Harry's scar hurt in Privet Drive:
GoF, The Pensieve, Page 602, American, HB"Now, has your scar hurt at any other time this year, excepting the time it woke you up over the summer?"

Dumbledore may have assumed that it was a dream (like the one Harry just told him about) that caused the scar to hurt. Here is what happens after Harry says "No":
GoF, The Pensieve, Page 602, American, HBDumbledore got up and began walking up and down behind his desk. Every now and then, he placed his wand tip to his temple, removed another shining silver thought, and added it to the Pensieve.....
Dumbledore stopped pacing and looked at Harry.

This could be a sign that Dumbledore used Legilimency on Harry to recover the dream.


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Old June 5th, 2007, 6:08 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Wait, Harry never told Sirius about the dream, he said he didn't want to sound to worried. The only ones he told was Ron and Hermione after they returned from the World Cup. Even Dumbledore didn't know of the dream.


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Old June 5th, 2007, 7:09 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Dumbledore, I believe, takes a particular interest in what happens in Little Hangleton, what with it being the ec-residence of Tom Riddle Sr, and the place where he was laid to rest. His suspicions about Horcruxes probably almost fully established by now, he knows that Voldemort has a "thing" about places in his life. He probably also takes an interest in other places of interest in Voldemort's mind. Also, he states that he read it in a Muggle Newspaper, which is probably true, a local newspaper, for it doesn't seem prolific enough to be national news...if the Hangleton area has a local Newspaper, Dumbledore almost definitely subscribed to it...


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Old June 5th, 2007, 9:33 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyogoetophile
This question has bothered me to no end for quite some time. I can't remember, but I think my current conclusion was that Snape had gotten the information from Wormtail and relayed it to Dumbledore.
Huh. That's certainly a possibility. And it's good to know I'm not the only crazy person who notices stuff like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyogoetophile
Or what if Dumbledore just yanked it out of Harry's head during a conversation, a class, or while Harry was sleeping or something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead
This could be a sign that Dumbledore used Legilimency on Harry to recover the dream.
Maybe, but it seems very un-Dumbledorish to me. He'd have to know there was a dream, first off, and then why go borrowing information from Harry's head without his permission? Surely Harry would have told him the details if he'd asked. Besides, can't Harry always tell when Snape is Legilimencing him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlubalybub
Dumbledore, I believe, takes a particular interest in what happens in Little Hangleton, what with it being the ec-residence of Tom Riddle Sr, and the place where he was laid to rest. His suspicions about Horcruxes probably almost fully established by now, he knows that Voldemort has a "thing" about places in his life. He probably also takes an interest in other places of interest in Voldemort's mind. Also, he states that he read it in a Muggle Newspaper, which is probably true, a local newspaper, for it doesn't seem prolific enough to be national news...if the Hangleton area has a local Newspaper, Dumbledore almost definitely subscribed to it...
True, but that still wouldn't tell him anything about whether Voldemort used Nagini to kill the man. Anyway, the quote MrSleepyHead posted a few posts back suggests that Bryce was only deemed "missing" so I don't know if Dumbledore would have been able to draw any information about how Bryce was murdered. The natural — and correct, in this case — assumption would be that he used Avada Kedavra.


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  #13  
Old June 5th, 2007, 9:42 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

I suposed he just got the info from the newspapers. But this is interesting.

I dont think Dumbledore would have intruded on Harry's mind without permision.

Hang on he could have taken the memory ffrom Frank himself. Can you take memorys from the dead? I dont suppose so but some canon evidence would be nice.


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Old June 5th, 2007, 11:03 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Time, and time and time again when I read about how much Dumbledore knew, (about a whole variety of things -- on many different threads) and WHEN he knew it, and HOW he knew it, I start to get really worried. Sometimes, just sometimes, my faith in Dumbledore wobbles. Why was he so secretive?


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Old June 5th, 2007, 11:35 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Nice research capella...I hadn't noticed that inconsistancy beforehand. My best guesses are that either Harry told DD about the dream and we were never told (as readers), or the Legilimancy approach. Assuming that Legilimancy can be done both silently and without the "recepiant" knowing, then I would guess that's the case. DD strikes me as skilled enough to be able to Legilimans without the target knowing.


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Old June 6th, 2007, 12:22 am
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Dumbledore said Frank Bryce was reported missing in the Muggle newspaper. If you read carefully between the lines in GoF, Frank Bryce was apparently fed to Nagini after he was killed.

Dumbledore also knew that Frank was the Riddle caretaker, and that he had been accused of killing the Riddles (even though Dumbledore knew the truth.) It's not that hard to figure out given the facts - especially since Dumbledore already knew Voldemort was still alive.


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Old June 6th, 2007, 1:12 am
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise
My best guesses are that either Harry told DD about the dream and we were never told (as readers), or the Legilimancy approach. Assuming that Legilimancy can be done both silently and without the "recepiant" knowing, then I would guess that's the case. DD strikes me as skilled enough to be able to Legilimans without the target knowing.
Even then, he would've seen the green flash and known it was the Killing Curse that did Frank Bryce in, not Nagini. Maybe I'm getting too hung up on semantics here, but Dumbledore could have said, "After an interval of some years, however, he killed an old Muggle man in Nagini's presence, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux."

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKasparRollins
If you read carefully between the lines in GoF, Frank Bryce was apparently fed to Nagini after he was killed.
Which lines are these? And is there a way Dumbledore could have known this? Like, part of another dream Harry actually did tell him about or something?


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Old June 6th, 2007, 1:46 am
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capella_black
Maybe, but it seems very un-Dumbledorish to me. He'd have to know there was a dream, first off, and then why go borrowing information from Harry's head without his permission? Surely Harry would have told him the details if he'd asked. Besides, can't Harry always tell when Snape is Legilimencing him?
Like I said earlier, Dumbledore may have assumed it was a dream. Harry had just come in, complaining about his scar hurting, after having a dream. At Privet Drive, he also complained of his scar hurting, and Voldemort was no where near. Thus, Dumbledore could put two and two together (he had a dream at Privet Drive, which caused his scar to hurt).

Also, while using Legilimency on Harry without his consent may seem somewhat un-Dumbledore-ish, he may have been so eager for this information that he knew Harry could not provide enough details. He wanted to see the scene. Now, why he didn't ask Harry permission, I do not know - like I said, he could possibly have been too eager to get the information.

And, yes, Harry can usually tell when someone is using Legilimency on him (Snape especially, but even Dumbledore). He always had the feeling that Dumbledore was X-raying him. However, Dumbledore is powerful enough to hide his Legilimency-ing, and, look at my previous post to show when and where he could have done it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capella_black
Anyway, the quote MrSleepyHead posted a few posts back suggests that Bryce was only deemed "missing" so I don't know if Dumbledore would have been able to draw any information about how Bryce was murdered. The natural and correct, in this case assumption would be that he used Avada Kedavra.
I always like having my name bolded - it makes me feel important. As for this, Dumbledore listed three disappearances: Bertha Jorkins, Barty Crouch (Sr.), and Frank Bryce. All of these disappearances were, in fact, deaths. Also, it is like Dumbledore to inquire further. In the Little Hangleton newspaper, he may have read: 'Riddle gardener's death mystifies local police', just like with the Riddles. Therefore, Dumbledore could easily draw from that headline that Frank was killed by a wizard - and by Avada Kedavra. Or else, even if Frank was never discovered, Dumbledore could have journeyed to Little Hangleton, seen the 'crime scene', and understood by that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKasparRollins
Dumbledore said Frank Bryce was reported missing in the Muggle newspaper. If you read carefully between the lines in GoF, Frank Bryce was apparently fed to Nagini after he was killed.
For once I am in agreement with capella_black (). I do not understand how one can gather this. However, it is incredibly intriguing. Could you perhaps list your reasons?

However, even if Voldemort fed Frank to Nagini, how does that classify as using Nagini to kill Frank? Frank would already have been dead...
[quote=capella_black]Even then, he would've seen the green flash and known it was the Killing Curse that did Frank Bryce in, not Nagini. Maybe I'm getting too hung up on semantics here, but Dumbledore could have said, "After an interval of some years, however, he killed an old Muggle man in Nagini's presence, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux."[/fieldset]
I believe that you are forgetting that Nagini, as I stated before, did have a hand (well...a...scale) in Frank's murder:
GoF, The Riddle House, Page 13, American, HB"Nagini has interesting news, Wormtail...According to Nagini, there is an old Muggle standing right outside this room, listening to every word we say."

They then let Frank in, and kill him. Thus, without Nagini's message to Voldemort that Frank was outside, Frank would never have been killed. And that is what I think Dumbledore met when he said Nagini was used to kill Frank.


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Old June 7th, 2007, 2:14 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

I wonder if it points towards Dumbeldore over-estimating the importance of Nagini. We saw clearly that she wasn't used to kill Frank Bryce, yet Dumbledore is assuming she did. He then goes on to assume that Nagini is a horcrux.

The first 'error' could be a hint that the hrocrux assumption is also wrong.

It's clear that Dumbledore discovered the disappearence through the muggle papers and correctly assumed that any muggle encountering Voldemort would be killed. His assumptions beyond that seem to go astray however, which links with his claim that his mistakes are more significant.

There doesn't seem to be any way he could get more information about the incident - I don't see wormtail leaking the details and the dream wasn't clear enough.


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Old June 7th, 2007, 7:06 pm
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Re: How and What Did Dumbledore Know About Frank Bryce's Murder?

This may be way off, but I remember thinking when I read GoF that it says that someone owned the Riddle house and kept it for "tax purposes" but no one knew what that would be, I always suspected DD of buying the house and allowing Frank to continue to work as he kind of got the short end of the stick with Voldemort killing off the riddles. That way he helped Frank out and had an excellent way of keeping an eye on the Riddle house b/c he knew Voldemort would come back


 
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