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Zacharias Smith: Descendent of Helga Hufflepuff?



 
 
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  #61  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 12:22 am
Ixidor  Undisclosed.gif Ixidor is offline
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Never thought about Luna, but I guess that would make sense as her purpose to the plot hasn't really been revealed even though she is a very big character


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  #62  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:45 am
bluebelle  Undisclosed.gif bluebelle is offline
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Um .... I'm not sure what to make of Luna. At first she didn't seem that important, more like a filler character for comic relief or an outlet/prompt for Harry to contemplate his own emotions. However, she has been in and out of all of the last three books. The little starter hint in GOF. Then she really came in during the next book, and while playing a big part and developing into a great character, I completely agree with Ixidor, it wasn't absolutely clear why she HAD to be there to advance the plot. Couldn't the book still have worked without Luna? By that I mean, not that she didn't do some important interesting stuff, but why did it have to be her character specifically that did it - why not a more established character. It seemed to imply (to me at least) that JKR gave a relative unknown character a lot of page time to develop as a character, for us to get to know them. Maybe this was for an arbitary reason, i.e. just that she likes Luna as a character. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of revelation related to Luna or her family. It certainly is an interesting point about her mother's death. It would be interesting to know whether Luna actually saw her mother dying, or just the body (especially if we are going to theorise on if Voldemort was involved).

Luna does have a few things going for her. Her mother seemed like a very talented witch (as Luna herself has said) which would be a Ravenclaw trait. Furthermore, I believe that her mother was an inventor, which definitely seems to be in the footsteps of Rowena Ravenclaw who designed the floor plan of Hogwarts with all the moving stairs etc. Rowena is also remembered for her "creativity" which both Luna and her parents seem to have in buckets (Quibbler anyone ...)

Also Luna doesn't get rattled. It could be argued that she is calmly wise (maybe in a Dumbledore kind of way) not letting her emotions overcome her in dangerous situations but keeping a clear perspective - an old head on young shoulders. Luna has a very unique emotional / psychological set-up. But I have the feeling that her dreamy unconventionalness and the impression she gives of being a bit disconnected to what's going on around her (i.e. in a world of her own) leads to an underestimation of how clever she is and how events are affecting her emotions too. She seems to see and express things in a different way, the other characters don't seem to really understand her well, so probably don't appreciate her talents as much as she deserves (as has happened with a lot of the greatest minds in history!)

Another point is that Luna does show great courage at various stages (although she hardly shows any fear at all so it's hard to know if this is really courage). SHe also seems quite Hufflepuffish in her regard to other students, she certainly seems to treat everyone equally and doesn't really go into House rivally as her Gryffindor hat shows. AFter all in the Quidditch this book it was really between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw - a hardcore Ravenclaw loyalist may not have been supporting Gryffindor quite to overtly. The point here though, is perhaps she is a truly great Ravenclaw to make it into Ravenclaw when she seems to also have virtues which would endear her to other houses. If this is the case I would expect her intelligence far outstrips her other virtues, or perhaps she just value intelligence and wisdom the most, and chose to follow that path.


On the other hand, I just somehow don't get the feeling the Luna is quite right. I have always pictured Rowena in my head as quite savvy and astute which I don't get from Luna. I can't help thinking that her role might still be more minor, but it's interesting to think it over ...

Sorry this has been a bit long, I got side-tracked on Luna but I do have another post more related to my original post which i'll type when I get time.


  #63  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 11:44 am
Venus_77  Female.gif Venus_77 is offline
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Well that's clever! And very convenient! This is how Smith will return to 'the good side'. By being angry at Voldemort for using their heirlooms for a bad cause. Zacharias Smith isan't excatly evil, just annoying. Do you think he's bad enough to be a Dark Wizard?


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  #64  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 11:46 am
claret101  Female.gif claret101 is offline
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No, I've never seen anything to suggest he's a DE. Being a bit annoying doesn't make you evil.


  #65  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 12:23 pm
bluebelle  Undisclosed.gif bluebelle is offline
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Back to the original thought. My original post was really asking the question:

Where might Voldemort have looked for items (to be turned into Horcruxes) which belonged once to the original founders?

Presumably the people you'd expect to have such items or maybe know about them, would be the descendants of the founders, who might have such heirlooms or alternatively would probably know a lot about their own family history.

Consequentially, if we, or Harry, could trace the original descendants that is a possible starting point to understand what objects Voldemort may have obtained (i.e. what objects were used for Horcruxes). Alternatively of course, Harry may obtain information about Horcruxes through people in the know, although considering that Voldemort seems particularly secretive about his Horcruxes, it is doubtful that there is a lot of information in the open. I think rather there will have to be a certain amount of deduction to find these Horcrux items, both in terms of what items to look for and where to find them.

If the way to find out the history of the founders and their possessions is through their descendants (as oppose to looking in books at the library etc.) then we might see Harry teaming up with some different people - a.k.a Zacharias Smith.

I just get the feeling that Voldemort goes in for the powerful symbolism (7 magical number, possessions of the founders) and he might have thought a powerful, symbolic Horcrux would be:

An item of a Hogwarts founder
Based on the murder of one of their descendants
Placed in a location connected to the founder

For example, why have we heard on a couple of occasions about where the founders come from: glen, valley, fen and moor (I think!). Why is this important in the slightest. There are a lot of other things which are surely more important to say about their lives. Maybe this piece of information will have a use in book 7 when looking for where these Horcruxes might be. Plus with Harry not going back to Hogwarts, he'll definitely have the opportunity to move around more.

I don't have the book but a very interesting page for me is in the chapter 'a sluggish memory' after they have exited the first memory of Voldemort meeting his uncle. Dumbledore says that having retrieved the memory he was in the process of clearing the uncle's name but unfortunately the uncle died just after before he could manage it. Doesn't this seem a little coincidental? That he happened to die, just as someone was about to prove his innocence and obtain his freedom?

My guess (JKR's a mix of so much subtelty and redherrings it's hard to be anything more than a guess as this stage) is that Voldemort killed him. However, this is a definite 'if' because even though Voldemort is the only real person I can think of who would have anything to gain from killing him, it still wouldn't necessarily mean he would do it himself. Plus Dumbledore stated that he believes Riddle didn't kill anyone between the Riddles and Hepzibah. This means we're looking at sometime after Hepzibah and before the Potters. Afterall, by the time Harry is in the wizarding world Voldemort is the last descendant of Slytherin, meaning Morphin is already dead. The other importance of this timing is that it would have to be a bit later (i.e. beyond Hepzibah's death) to involve our R.A.B - (Regulus Black). Voldemort is considerably older than Regulus so this death would have had to happen a little later.

However, if we go with the theory. Voldemort kills his Uncle, second last descendant of Slytherin, creates a Horcrux through that murder using Slytherin's item - the locket, and then leaves it in a cave. Alright, so a cave hardly points definitively to the fens, but the fens is a a watery place stretching up to the North Norfolk Coast which has caves. Admitedly the coincidence here would be that Tom Riddle was taken on an orphanage trip to the homeplace of his ancestor, but it's hardly beyond the realms of possiblity as the Norfolk Coast is a popular holiday destination in the South.

If this whole complex stuff holds true there could possibly be another parallel - Zacharias Smith might be the last in the Hufflepuff line after Hepzibah, Luna could be last in Ravenclaw after her mother, Harry could be the last after his father ?? Not necessarily these people, but you get what i'm saying, that whoever is left could be in the same position as Voldemort, the last in the line. I'm pretty sure this point is utter rubbish, but it's worth mentioning.

I have one final question which is fairly unrelated to the above.
If we assume that the horcruxes run as follows:
1) Ring - Riddles murdered
2) Diary ? - Moaning Myrtle ???
3) Cup - Hepzibah Smith
4) Locket - Morphin
5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant
6) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant
7) Nagini - ordinary muggle.

It's quite a mix for a start! A couple of them are pure-blood muggles which makes for a mixed blood collection for a start! But the question I have is the Diary. Who did he kill for the Diary? He didn't actually kill Myrtle - the Snake did, does it matter that he directed it? He's still not the person who made the direct action. Plus Dumbledore seemed to think that there were no murders between the Riddles and Hepzibah. So the Diary must have actually come much later on. I'm a little puzzled on when he made it and who he killed.

A further point to zoozoo, I'm not sure whether Harry is a Grffindor heir. In fact I'm pretty much not sure on any of this, given JKR's style it is always hard to go beyond speculation. However, I thought it might kick up some intersting discussion points.
I believe that people think Harry could be because of stuff like: shooting red and gold sparks out of his wand, parent's living in Godrics Hollow, pulling out Gryffindor's sword out of the hat, etc. etc. It's so hard with JKR to draw any firm conclusions. She is subtle and has many red herrings. So like with most theories, I guess it's your call whether you feel any resonance with this evidence or believe it to be circumstantial / fulfilling another purpose in the books.

The last point I want to make is that I still think that going back and reviewing all of the deaths mentioned could be useful(particularly the one's mentioned just in passing such as when Mad-eye was showing Harry the picture of the original order). I don't think that Voldemort (unlike some of his more psycopathic followers) kills just for the heck of it. I think it's mostly a calculated act for him - especially given how much he seems to scorn emotion and feeling. I think that anyone Voldemort has killed was strategically important to his plans.

ANyway, really, enough for now ...


  #66  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 12:49 pm
SquibOnline  Male.gif SquibOnline is offline
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Could be, but I wouldn't put a bet on it


  #67  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 8:48 pm
Tawy  Undisclosed.gif Tawy is offline
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Quote:
I have one final question which is fairly unrelated to the above.
If we assume that the horcruxes run as follows:
1) Ring - Riddles murdered
2) Diary ? - Moaning Myrtle ???
3) Cup - Hepzibah Smith
4) Locket - Morphin
5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant
6) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant
7) Nagini - ordinary muggle.
Just wanted to say that you got one Horcrux too much in there =P There are 6 horcruxes and the 7th part of his soul is in his body :o


  #68  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 9:44 pm
Emmadesheres  Female.gif Emmadesheres is offline
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I read things like that:

1) Peverell's Ring - Riddles
2) Heir of Slytherin's Diary - (Moaning Myrtle) ???
3) Hufflepuff's Cup - Hepzibah Smith
4) Slytherin's Locket - Morfin (clever guess, bluebelle)

We have problems for the others:
5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant
6) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant (Harry Potter)

or

5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant / 5) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant (not Harry Potter)
6) ??? - The One (Harry Potter who is not a descendant of a founder)


But the last murder failed, so, thirteen years later:
6) Heir of Slytherin's Pet (Nagini) - ordinary muggle. (I think Lord Thingy wants to change this one because it isn't class at all, but I don't know if it's possible)

And finally,
7) Lord Voldemort--Vapormort--Ugly Baby--Lord Thingy--You-Know-Who--Tom Marvolo Riddle--etc.

A theory is that Harry himself or just his scar could be a Horcrux, but I don't think it's very likely (Harry would have to destroy himself before killing Voldemort, wouldn't he?)


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Last edited by Emmadesheres; July 22nd, 2005 at 9:47 pm.
  #69  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 9:49 pm
elbuffo  Male.gif elbuffo is offline
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on the thought of the horcruxes, what could be the one from ravenclaw or gryfindor. could it be a tiara

Quote:
The potions book is in there now. So Harry can get back in. Interesting that Mrs. Weasley mentions a family heirloom tiara and Harry just happened to put one on the statue to mark where the potions book is... I thought a tiara seemed notable in both of those instances....
mrs weasly says they might persuade her gradmother. we don't know her ancestry or her maiden name. could this be one of the horcruxes. maybe voldy had the horcruxe and wanted to hide it under dd's nose. he would be paceing thinking i need a place to hide this and opens the room of requirment.

please post your thoughts to my theorie.

qoute from Runnels


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  #70  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:05 pm
Emmadesheres  Female.gif Emmadesheres is offline
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Quote:
we don't know her ancestry or her maiden name.
JKR said on her site that Molly's maiden name was Prewett, and that she was the sister of the Prewetts brothers who were murdered in the first war.

Yes, the mysterious item could be the tiara. But it would be Ravenclaw's, cause only women have tiaras (I can't imagine Godric Gryffindor with a tiara, why not Snape with a vulture-hat?). We don't know if the Prewetts (Molly and her brothers Gideon and Fabian) were Gryffindors or Ravenclawes (is that correct?), but I'd rather have Luna as the Heir of Ravenclaw (so the tiara would be the one in the Room of Requirement).

I wonder what was the item for Harry's murder.


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  #71  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:16 pm
Mama_Molly  Female.gif Mama_Molly is offline
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Maybe it's Luna's cork bottle necklace!


  #72  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:20 pm
afterblue  Undisclosed.gif afterblue is offline
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I keep thinking of Zach's haughty looking dad and Zach who is himself kinda....proud. Haughty because they are direct descendants of a founder of Hogwarts, or just haughty.


  #73  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:23 pm
Mama_Molly  Female.gif Mama_Molly is offline
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Haughty is often an act of self preservation . . .


  #74  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:39 pm
Pureblue  Male.gif Pureblue is offline
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ok...

1. Ring-Tom Riddle Sr.-Destroyed
2. Tom Riddle Jr.'s Diary-Moaning Myrtle-Destroyed (he was in his sixth year when he released the basilisk, and he was in sixth year when he asked Slughorn about the horcrux!)
3. Salazar Slytherin's Locket-Morphin Gaunt-Possibly at the Black House (R.A.B=Regulus A. Black?)
4. Helga Hufflepuff's Goblet-Hepzibah Smith-Possibly with Zacharias Smith, Possibly Hidden
5. Something of Rowena Ravenclaw's (tiara?)-Major Death before Potters (can anyone check HBP?)
6. Nagini-Ordinary Muggle-With Voldemort himself
7. Voldemort

So that's what we know. Can someone check OotP to see what Zacharias Smith's Patronus was and to see if anyone conjured a Raven or something Similar? Oh, and it can't be something of Gryffindor's because the Sword is at Hogwarts. Or at least it is most unlikely


  #75  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:42 pm
Aliabes  Female.gif Aliabes is offline
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I doubt very much Zacharias is another Mark Evans. ME was mentionned only once, whereas Smithy gets loads of screen time. Not to mention JK's nightmares must be haunted by the infamous Mark, and she must still fear retaliation by angry fans


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  #76  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 10:46 pm
afterblue  Undisclosed.gif afterblue is offline
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First let me point out one inconsistency in the sorting hat methodology. In the first songs, Hufflepuffs were said to be loyal and true and, humble and hardworking? But by the last song, Helga was the one who took all those who didn't get picked by the other three founders. So, I am not entirely sure what the hufflepuff qualities are. Sure, DD says that Cedric epitomized the best qualities of Hufflepuff and he was very humble, but aren't some people better examples of their house qualities than others? Is Cho really the epitome of intellect, is Neville the epitome of daring? (He is brave yes, but daring?). Conversely is the smartest person in the school a ravenclaw?

And why single out Zach? Think of Ernie who is pompous (can you be pompous *and humble?) and can trace his pureblood family up nine generations of wizards and witches? Think of Justin who made it a point to mention his name was down for Eton (perhaps the most prestigious muggle school in the Isles). Think of Hepzibah herself, who hardly seems humble herself. Nice enough, bessotted, but not humble.

If Hepzibah was not humble, why should her descendant? The Gaunts were not exactly ambitious even if they were obsessed with pureblood nonsense and could speak parceltongue. Personality is not entirely genetic. Thus, I won't let Zach's haughtiness keep me from considering him as a descendent of the sweet and accepting Helga. He was not the snitch in OOP which shows he has some sense of loyalty, and he may well be very hardworking, and if anything, if he is a direct descendent of Helga, a founder of the school that is possibly reason for his arrogance.


  #77  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 11:52 pm
papos_rane  Female.gif papos_rane is offline
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wow..i never thought of that ..good theory,very possible,now maybe zacharias has a reason to be nice to potter cuz hes gunna get the cup back,but then destroy it lol,which will make him hate harry even more..i wonder if he knows about the cup? or if hes related?


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  #78  
Old July 23rd, 2005, 12:22 am
VicarBook  Undisclosed.gif VicarBook is offline
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Woah that is an amazing connection. I'm sold (no sarcasm here either). I mean, I wouldn't doubt it a bit. I personally get the feeling that the founder of that line was apparently hmm more prolific at producing heirs. That feeling could be from her focus on being essentially a believer in the strength of family (what better way that having a direct family in addition to the take 'em all attitude of the House).

Vicar Book


  #79  
Old July 23rd, 2005, 12:23 am
pyromaniac  Male.gif pyromaniac is offline
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Might be. Very interesting


  #80  
Old July 23rd, 2005, 12:50 am
papos_rane  Female.gif papos_rane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pureblue
ok...

1. Ring-Tom Riddle Sr.-Destroyed
2. Tom Riddle Jr.'s Diary-Moaning Myrtle-Destroyed (he was in his sixth year when he released the basilisk, and he was in sixth year when he asked Slughorn about the horcrux!)
3. Salazar Slytherin's Locket-Morphin Gaunt-Possibly at the Black House (R.A.B=Regulus A. Black?)
4. Helga Hufflepuff's Goblet-Hepzibah Smith-Possibly with Zacharias Smith, Possibly Hidden
5. Something of Rowena Ravenclaw's (tiara?)-Major Death before Potters (can anyone check HBP?)
6. Nagini-Ordinary Muggle-With Voldemort himself
7. Voldemort

So that's what we know. Can someone check OotP to see what Zacharias Smith's Patronus was and to see if anyone conjured a Raven or something Similar? Oh, and it can't be something of Gryffindor's because the Sword is at Hogwarts. Or at least it is most unlikely

but zacharias DOES NOT HAVE THE CUP ! WHY WOULD VOLDEMORT STEAL IT AND PUT A PIECE OF HIS SOUL IN IT,AND RETURN IT?? uhmm no. he still has it somewhere


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