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Snape and Voldemort, the same person?



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 10th, 2005, 9:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GinnyRules
Do you mean that you don't think Snape and Voldemort were born from the same parents and are only one person? I totally agree with you. I can see how the thread title would lead you to think that (silly me. I wrote Snape and Voldie, The same person?). What I really meant is that it might be possible that sometimes Voldemort took polyjuice potion or posessed Snape.
Oh well, now that is a totally different thing. Sorry I misunderstood.

I'll have to think about that some more because it is certainly possible. However, I would think the possession theory is more likely than polyjuice potion. The polyjuice potion has already been done.

The possession is certainly possible, but I would wonder what motive LV would have for possessing Snape. Would you mind clarifying the reasons you think LV might do so for me? Thanks!


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  #22  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:04 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric
I doubt it because why wouldn't Voldemort/Snape just kill harry
Maybe because he knew Dumbledore was watching and he didn't want to give himself away. I doubt Snape/Voldie would have been able to kill Harry with Dumbledore around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xayla
Oh well, now that is a totally different thing. Sorry I misunderstood.

I'll have to think about that some more because it is certainly possible. However, I would think the possession theory is more likely than polyjuice potion. The polyjuice potion has already been done.

The possession is certainly possible, but I would wonder what motive LV would have for possessing Snape. Would you mind clarifying the reasons you think LV might do so for me? Thanks!
One of the reasons might be that Voldemort wanted to do things himself (that is totally his personality), but he needed to be somebody else to do it so he created Snape as a man who needed a second chance because he knew Dumbledore had to see the best in Snape. Why he needed to be somebody else? Because Lord Voldemort could not really be a hogwarts teacher who'se in the order.

And don't be sorry you misunderstood, it was my fault for messing up the title.


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  #23  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:05 pm
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No.Interesting,but no.

Harrys scar hurt because Quirrel(who had Voldemort in the back of his head)was talking with Snape.

Keep in mind that when we first meet Snape,Voldemort is in nothing more than the form of a spirit,and I'm confident that Polyjuice Potion won't work on a spirit.We also never see alot of characters in the same scenes,but that doesn't necessarily mean aything.


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  #24  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:14 pm
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Also remember that Harry saw VM reborn (in fact was a potion ingredient for the rebirth).

You know - I STILL wonder how different things might have turned out if VM hadn't been looking at Harry at the feast that night. Harry's scar hurts leads to him looking up with a pained expression leads to Snape thinking "Wow!, not only does he look like James, but he's apparently disgusted to find me here - arrogant Potter!"


  #25  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Keep in mind that when we first meet Snape,Voldemort is in nothing more than the form of a spirit,and I'm confident that Polyjuice Potion won't work on a spirit.
But Voldemort wasn't necessarily posessing Snape at first. My guess is that if he did it was after his rebirth. I thought at first that he had been posessing/impersonating Snape all along, but that's obviously been proved impossible.


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  #26  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:17 pm
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Hmmm....I don't know GinnyRules. I think we would have seen a completely different character if Snape was going in & out of being possessed. So far, I think we see a farily consistent person throughout the series when Snape is in a scene. I would think that there would be discrepancies in behavior, but that's just my opinion.


  #27  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:19 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
Also remember that Harry saw VM reborn (in fact was a potion ingredient for the rebirth).
Voldemor would not have been posessing Snape as soon as he was reborn, because Snape wasn't there. Nobody knows what happened after Snape went back to LV, but Voldy may have explained his plan of posessing him and that's when it happened.


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  #28  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:21 pm
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Hmmm....I don't know GinnyRules. I think we would have seen a completely different character if Snape was going in & out of being possessed. So far, I think we see a farily consistent person throughout the series when Snape is in a scene. I would think that there would be discrepancies in behavior, but that's just my opinion.
Yeah you would notice Mean Snape, Snape Staring at Harry like he wanted to Kill him Snape, Mean Snape, Snape Staring at Harry like he wanted to Kill him Snape, lol ok well what i mean is that you would see mood swings of Snape....


  #29  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xayla
Hmmm....I don't know GinnyRules. I think we would have seen a completely different character if Snape was going in & out of being possessed. So far, I think we see a farily consistent person throughout the series when Snape is in a scene. I would think that there would be discrepancies in behavior, but that's just my opinion.
Yeah that's true. Voldemort would probably have had trouble being around Harry and acing normal. Good point. However Snape wasn't necessarily going constantly in and out of being posessed. There may have just been one change. Later I might go and search for some point where there is a slight change in Snape's character, but right now somebody from my family is hogging my book.


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  #30  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:31 pm
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I suppose one of the best proofs would be the end of bk6. Snape is blocking all of Harry's spells with ease. I can guess that he must be using Snape's wand then because there wasn't a 'brother wands' problem - but mainly - if the 'flight of the prince' was VM instead of Snape why not kill Harry then? 'That' Snape wasn't having any trouble with him. And was in fact, telling him what he was doing wrong. VM the duelling instructor!

It's an interesting supposition - but you need to come up with some canon.


  #31  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:47 pm
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I think Hwyla's offered proof against this.

If Voldy's Polyjuicing to be Snape, then he has to have the real Snape under his control all the time so he can continue to make the potion with a hair or something in it (as Crouch Jr. did with Moody in GoF). Even if this weren't true, he couldn't let Snape go because even if Snape wanted to cover for Voldemort, he wouldn't remember conversations and events that Voldy-Snape was present for--and I don't think he'd want to cover for Voldemort. That means Voldemort would have to be Snape from whenever he began impersonating him down to the present--teaching classes and everything. That seems hugely unlikely.

But a better objection is that there's no real point to Voldemort doing this. What does it accomplish? We never see Snape doing anything that seems out of his league; he's a powerful wizard. He doesn't have to be Voldemort in order to kill Dumbledore (no one seems to think Snape was incapable of AK) unless you believe that Snape is good, which you don't.


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Last edited by Shewoman; October 10th, 2005 at 10:49 pm.
  #32  
Old October 10th, 2005, 10:57 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
It's an interesting supposition - but you need to come up with some canon.
Yeah I do, don't I. Well let's see, I'll try to come up with some now.

We never see Snape and Voldemort at the same time. He's not there when all the DE's try to get the prophecy, and that may be because Dumbledore and Harry would have noticed, but Dumbledore wasn't there for a long time, so he could very well have gone to fight with the Order and sabotaged their chances. If Harry had noticed and told Dumbledore, Dumbledore probably wouldn't have taken him seriously because Harry kept trying to find reasons to be angry with Snape.
So here's my take on the prophecy scene: Snape/Voldy told Dumbledore he couldn't help the Order because Voldemort would notice (or Dumbledore figured that part out for himself), and then he either waited for the effects of the polyjuice potion to wear off or Voldy stopped posessing him and took back his actual form before going to the ministry.

I have to get of the computer now but I will try to find more canon (that whole thing wasn't canon, but the part where you don't see Snape and Voldy in the same scene ever is).


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  #33  
Old October 10th, 2005, 11:26 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric
Yeah you would notice Mean Snape, Snape Staring at Harry like he wanted to Kill him Snape, Mean Snape, Snape Staring at Harry like he wanted to Kill him Snape, lol ok well what i mean is that you would see mood swings of Snape....

I hadn't thought about it in quite that way.


  #34  
Old October 11th, 2005, 12:05 am
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Outside of diaries/Pensieves of Riddle, I think we actually see Voldemort only three times after Godric's Hollow: at the end of PS/QS as Quirrellmort (and we do see Quirrell and Snape together at various points in the book), at the end of GoF when he gets his body back and tries to kill Harry, and at the end of OotP upstairs in the lobby of the MoM. The fact that Snape isn't in those few scenes isn't much evidence; neither is Fred, Bella, Dean, Rita, Arthur, Hermione, McGonagall, Bill, Lupin, Filch, Petunia, George, Molly, Dung, Draco, Hagrid, Ron, Vernon, Ginny, Trelawney, Binns, Sinistra, Lockhart, Neville, Dobby, Cho, Sirius . . . . Any or all of those absences (including Snape's) may be significant, but since there are so many people not seen with Voldemort, I think additional proof would be needed--like someone acting badly out of character or not remembering a conversation we know they were in.


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Last edited by Shewoman; October 11th, 2005 at 12:12 am.
  #35  
Old October 11th, 2005, 12:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhhgrt
Snape and Voldie being the same has all the likelihood of Harry and Hermione becominf a couple.
Ho, ho, ho.

But I too disagree with this theory, one because I believe Snape to be on the good side, two because Harry's scar hurt due to Quirrelmort, and three because there are many holes (a couple being Harry's scar would hurt a lot more often and in every potions class wouldn't it? And Voldemort was barely even human for 14 years...he was a slimy fetus like thing...).


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  #36  
Old October 11th, 2005, 12:23 am
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I don't really understand how Snape and Voldemort could be the same person. True, the scene where Quirrell and Snape are talking is the only scene in which they are both present, but just because they don't appear together doesn't mean they're the same person. If they were the same person, then Voldemort never lost his body-since Snape was around all throughout the first 4 books. If Snape was Voldemort, he would have killed Harry and Dumbledore long ago.

Plus, I think the scene in Spinners End between Bella and Snape indicates that she or Narcissa has seen them both in the same place. Maybe I'm wrong about that.


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  #37  
Old October 11th, 2005, 12:34 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasleytwin
Plus, I think the scene in Spinners End between Bella and Snape indicates that she or Narcissa has seen them both in the same place. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
That's right. Narcissa says that LV trusts Snape, and later in the book Draco mentions Snape being LV's favorite. Unless Draco and Narcissa are delusional (like H---no, I won't say it), then this puts a huge hole in the theory.


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  #38  
Old October 11th, 2005, 1:14 am
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Ok, for one thing:
Quote:
MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?

ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

ES: Yes!

MA: Yes!

ES: Like certain shippers we know!

[All laugh]

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.
This is obviously from the infamous Emmerson Melissa interview. She wouldn't have made such a distinction between them if they were they same.
Also, they are both amazing characters each with different issues with Harry. If they were he same, that would be pretty much wiping out the distinctions between these two as well as their things with Harry.


  #39  
Old October 11th, 2005, 1:38 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
I suppose one of the best proofs would be the end of bk6. Snape is blocking all of Harry's spells with ease. I can guess that he must be using Snape's wand then because there wasn't a 'brother wands' problem - but mainly - if the 'flight of the prince' was VM instead of Snape why not kill Harry then? 'That' Snape wasn't having any trouble with him. And was in fact, telling him what he was doing wrong. VM the duelling instructor!

It's an interesting supposition - but you need to come up with some canon.
I agree. I did think that there could be a person in the text who was two characters. Many of them crossed my mind, particularly Snape and Dumbledore, but alas there are many scenes where both characters are in it, so it can't be possible. It would go along well with the polyjuice idea.


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  #40  
Old October 11th, 2005, 1:15 pm
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Snape has poked his fingers into Harry's chest, and he has taken the Marauders Map from him (when he did this, before Voldemort came back to life) wouldn't it have hurt his hands like they hurt Quirells?

Plus, Harry saw Snape and Quirell together in the Forbidden Forest.


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