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Snape and Voldemort, the same person?



 
 
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  #41  
Old October 11th, 2005, 3:01 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhhgrt
This is obviously from the infamous Emmerson Melissa interview. She wouldn't have made such a distinction between them if they were they same.
That's not necessarily true. Remember in HBP, many times Harry says or thinks that the Half-Blood-Prince is a much better teacher than Snape, making a destinction between them. Well they turned out to be the same person, didn't they?

And also, as I have said before, the theory isn't about Voldemort and Snape being the same person (I'm sorry I made the title misleading), but about Voldemort posessing or impersonating Snape at some points, like when he kills Dumbledore (not trying to be rude, just clearing things up). It wouldn't destroy the difference between Snape/Harry and Voldemort/Harry, because they wouldn't always be together, just sometimes.


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  #42  
Old October 11th, 2005, 4:31 pm
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Nice idea, but no, no way. Not possible...


  #43  
Old October 11th, 2005, 8:19 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Originally Posted by MoonCrystal
Nice idea, but no, no way. Not possible...
Well do you have evidence. It may not be that likely, but there are lots of unlikely hings that happen in the books.


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  #44  
Old October 11th, 2005, 8:22 pm
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No, dear. It is you who need to produce evidence - from canon - to support your theory.

That's what happens when some-one advances a theory: that's the starting point.

And it has to be something from canon; not something the poster "feels" or thinks would be nice/cool.


  #45  
Old October 11th, 2005, 8:31 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Originally Posted by Queen_Beruth
No, dear. It is you who need to produce evidence - from canon - to support your theory.

That's what happens when some-one advances a theory: that's the starting point.

And it has to be something from canon; not something the poster "feels" or thinks would be nice/cool.
As I have posted before, I do have at least one piece of canon (canon, not something I feel would be cool). Snape and Voldemort are never in one scene together. Another is that when Snape kills Dumbledore he has hatred and revulsion on his face, whereas the Snape that made the unbreakable Vow seemed a little reluctant (his hand twitched). I think people need to have disproving evidence before they say "that's not possible".


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  #46  
Old October 11th, 2005, 8:36 pm
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Hi GinnyRules,

I posted something yesterday that I feel disproves the Snape/Voldy being the same person theory. In the scene in Spinner's End, Bella and Narcissa's conversation with Snape indicates that they have seen him and Voldemort together in the same place. Someone else added that Draco also says Snape is LV's favorite-which indicates that HE has seen them together. True, we don't see them together, but we do have evidence that they do appear at the same place together.

I don't think we can assume that they are the same person simply because we don't see them together. Do you have any other canon that would suggest this? I'd be happy to listen.


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  #47  
Old October 11th, 2005, 8:36 pm
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I know you are young - so I'll go easy.

That two people are not shown together proves nothing, else some-one could argue that Filch=Voldemort, Vernon=Voldemort, or whatever. Only four chapters in six books are not shown from Harry's point of view, so apart from - for example - the Riddle House scene, we see only what Harry sees, whether he is at Hogwarts or Surrey or London. He hardly goes anywhere else.

Snape did indeed have hatred and revulsion etched on his face when doing what he did to DD; Harry too, felt hatred and revulsion when doing what he did to DD in the cave.


  #48  
Old October 11th, 2005, 8:57 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Originally Posted by Weasleytwin
Hi GinnyRules,

I posted something yesterday that I feel disproves the Snape/Voldy being the same person theory. In the scene in Spinner's End, Bella and Narcissa's conversation with Snape indicates that they have seen him and Voldemort together in the same place. Someone else added that Draco also says Snape is LV's favorite-which indicates that HE has seen them together. True, we don't see them together, but we do have evidence that they do appear at the same place together.

I don't think we can assume that they are the same person simply because we don't see them together. Do you have any other canon that would suggest this? I'd be happy to listen.
Sorry, I didn't see your earlier post.

Many people have already said that they can't be the same person and I apologise again for creating a misleading title. What I really mean is that perhaps Voldemort posessed or impersonated Snape at some point during the books, like when he killed Dumbledore.

Do I have more canon? Not that much but I'm trying to come up with more. There may be a small bit of evidence, which is that in Spinner's end Snape's hand twitched when he said he would kill Dumbledore, and he nesitated, but at the end of the book he shows no hesitation whatsoever and has hatred and revuldion etched in his face. This is not solid canon though, so I'll try to find more.

And please don't say you'll go easy because I'm young, Queen_Beruth, that's very annoying and condescending. I won't start a big argument over the age thing, because I've done that on another thread before and it didn't lead to anything constructive. But I will say this, you can go as hard as you want. You couldn't really say that Voldy=Filch or Vernon, because he wouldn't have any reason for posessing them. He would however, have many reasons to do so with Snape. For example, as I have already stated, I believe Voldemort created Snape as the man who needed a second chance because he knew Dumbledore would fall for it. And then, once Snape had Dumbledore's trust, he went and impersonated him so he could do things himself, because he's an independant guy.


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  #49  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:03 pm
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Oh, ok GinnyRules...that's probably more likely.

I would hazard a guess that DD has probably put enchantments on the school to prevent LV from entering, even if he is in disguise as somebody else. Also, why risk his own neck when he has minions-like Snape-to do his dirty work?


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  #50  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:17 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasleytwin
Oh, ok GinnyRules...that's probably more likely.

I would hazard a guess that DD has probably put enchantments on the school to prevent LV from entering, even if he is in disguise as somebody else. Also, why risk his own neck when he has minions-like Snape-to do his dirty work?
because, as DD said, he has never had any real friends. All the DE's say they are his most trusted follower, but he doesn't really trust anybody. Also, maybe he thought Snape would chicken out or something, and didn't want to risk it.

I don't really know what to say to Dumbledore's enchantments. I'm just not sure if that's possible, or else they would have done that with Sirius and saved themselves the trouble of having Dementors around.


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  #51  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:19 pm
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Wouldn't he have just killed Harry while he was at it?


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  #52  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:23 pm
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Originally posted by GinnyRules
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhhgrt
Quote:
This is obviously from the infamous Emmerson Melissa interview. She wouldn't have made such a distinction between them if they were they same.

That's not necessarily true. Remember in HBP, many times Harry says or thinks that the Half-Blood-Prince is a much better teacher than Snape, making a destinction between them. Well they turned out to be the same person, didn't they?

And also, as I have said before, the theory isn't about Voldemort and Snape being the same person (I'm sorry I made the title misleading), but about Voldemort posessing or impersonating Snape at some points, like when he kills Dumbledore (not trying to be rude, just clearing things up). It wouldn't destroy the difference between Snape/Harry and Voldemort/Harry, because they wouldn't always be together, just sometimes.
Yeah, but the point of saying that the HBP was a better teacher than Snape was so that we could remember reading that and sense the irony there. Not everything has a dep, dark meaning ya know. I really don't think you have any way to back this up. While you might like it, you have to ask yourself: Why would Voldemort want to possess/ impersonate his most trusted advisor? Wy would JKR put that in as a plot twist? What sense does it make in comparison to the rest of the series? Answer those questions please. And answers that make sense, not long winded essays that make no sense. If you can't answer those questions in under three sentences, then I dont find your theory credible.


  #53  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:34 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasleytwin
Wouldn't he have just killed Harry while he was at it?
Maybe, but he might have realised that wouldn't work for a number of reasons. First of all, he had tried that so many times and it had never worked. Also, he may have known that somebody would stop him.


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  #54  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:36 pm
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Quote:
I believe Voldemort created Snape as the man who needed a second chance because he knew Dumbledore would fall for it. And then, once Snape had Dumbledore's trust, he went and impersonated him so he could do things himself, because he's an independant guy.
What does this mean? When and how did Voldemort create Snape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinnyRules
Maybe, but he might have realised that wouldn't work for a number of reasons. First of all, he had tried that so many times and it had never worked. Also, he may have known that somebody would stop him.
Weak.


  #55  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:37 pm
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Ha! GinnyRules, you didn't answer my post, meaning you can't answer those questions, and therefore your theory is not credible. I win! Until proven otherwise.


  #56  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasleytwin
Wouldn't he have just killed Harry while he was at it?
No, and it's for the same reason that the Snape we know kept Harry alive all six years. Voldemort, if he were impersonating Snape, wouldn't want to lose Dumbledore's trust anymore than Snape did.

Still, I don't think any amount of "subtle hints" from canon (from the past six books), which would be pretty easy to randomly pick out, could convince me of this theory. It would be way too sloppy and elaborate a plot device.

I like to think that everything we've seen of Snape is actually Snape. He's complicated enough as it is.


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  #57  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:44 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucretia
No, and it's for the same reason that the Snape we know kept Harry alive all six years. Voldemort, if he were impersonating Snape, wouldn't want to lose Dumbledore's trust anymore than Snape did.
I think he'd be showing his true colors if he killed Harry. If he killed DD as Snape, why would he worry about killing Harry as Snape?


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  #58  
Old October 11th, 2005, 9:59 pm
GinnyRules  Female.gif GinnyRules is offline
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Originally Posted by rhhgrt
Ha! GinnyRules, you didn't answer my post, meaning you can't answer those questions, and therefore your theory is not credible. I win! Until proven otherwise.
I'm so sorry, I went to get a snack and didn't see your post. I'll try to answer your questions as short as I can.

1:Voldemort might want to impersonate his most trusted advisor because he had Dumbledore's trust and Voldy is an independant guy convinced that he is better than everybody else. (1 sentence)

2:JKR might introduce that plot twist because it's a way to show if Snape is evil (which I believe he is). (1 sentence)

3I don't really understand your third question, but I'll do my best to answer) It makes sense in comparison to the rest of the series because it would go with the fact that Dumbledore trusts some people too much. (1 sentence)

There you go. I answered your three questions in three simple sentences. And if you check my earlier posts you will see that I provide a few pieces of canon. Keep in mind that if I don't answer it's not necessarily because I can't but because I'm busy.


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  #59  
Old October 11th, 2005, 10:01 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasleytwin
I think he'd be showing his true colors if he killed Harry. If he killed DD as Snape, why would he worry about killing Harry as Snape?
Well, that's all very debatable---but he took the Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore. Whether or not this was part of a plan with Dumbledore, there was still no backing out.

Snape had to keep Harry alive so that he could remain in his position as a spy. That's why Voldemort wanted Draco to kill Dumbledore in the first place---so that Snape would be trusted by the Order for a longer time.

Now that Dumbledore is dead and everyone knows Snape killed him, Snape (or LV as Snape) would indeed not need to worry about killing Harry. However, he couldn't have done it in the past six books.


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  #60  
Old October 11th, 2005, 10:05 pm
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That's not necessarily true. Remember in HBP, many times Harry says or thinks that the Half-Blood-Prince is a much better teacher than Snape, making a destinction between them. Well they turned out to be the same person, didn't they?
But that was Harry's very biased point of view, not JK saing something in an interview.

Also Snape is seen around Hogwarts almost all the time e.g. in lessons, at meals, in detentions and LV presumably couldn't run a whole war if he was constantly at Hogwarts pretending to be Snape. how would the DE come to meetings and get their orders all the time?


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