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Grindelwald & Dumbledore's Past v2



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 25th, 2005, 10:03 am
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Grindelwald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Reference: Version 1

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Quote:
Originally Posted by karatekid
1. I think Grindelwald had a Horcrux: hence Dumbledore banning it at Hogwarts- fearing another 'Grindelwald'- ; and suspecting Tom Riddle's use of them.

2. I believe Dumbledore's ' Underground Map Scar' is a curse scar . . .

3. I think Grindelwald was connected to Hitler; his downfall was in 1945, and JKR said that it wasn't coincidence.

4. I don't think Dumbledore killed him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindaluna
Or "Grand Willed", which reminds one of self-will run riot, that is Voldemort too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karatekid
Nice idea

I had another thiught: Grindlewald and Tom Riddle wer around together- maybe thats where LV learnt some dark magic? where ge disapeared to for ten years . . . .

Thoughts anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mia305
I don't think Dumbledore is the sort of person to make a Horcrux, after all, he thinks that "to the well organised mind death is but the next great adventure"
  



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  #2  
Old December 25th, 2005, 7:33 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Maybe Grindlewald was in "cahoots" () with Voldemort. If so, that's great for Harry because it's one less dark wizard to battle!

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  #3  
Old December 25th, 2005, 7:52 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

To make a horcrux it takes an act of cold-hearted murder. Dumbledore would hurt a fly. Catch my drift . Anyway there is always his portrait in the Headmisteres' room now. Harry can always talk to him there.


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  #4  
Old December 25th, 2005, 8:03 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Perhaps Harry will return to the portrait! That's what I thought he would do as soon as he realised Dumbledore's portrait was there. Hopefully Dumbledore will be able to give Harry some pointers that he used against Grindlewald that Harry may be able to use against Voldemort.


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  #5  
Old December 25th, 2005, 8:09 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

The two dark wizards are different. Grindewald didn't have horcruxs or Dumbledore would have been on to Voldemort much sonner.


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  #6  
Old December 27th, 2005, 6:00 am
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

runitsandrew, could you please change the thread title, it's actually Grindelwald not "Grindlewald".

It's more probable that he (Grindelwald not Dumbledore) had a Horcrux. Why else did Dumbledore ban them?

JKR has said that just like buildings can be made Unplottable, wizards can make themselves untraceable. Anyway, almost everyone was scared to reminesce about the man Voldemort, Dumbledore himself said that.


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  #7  
Old December 27th, 2005, 8:36 am
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Well, I've always thought that Horcruxes were banned simply because it's taboo and the last thing parents want is for their kids to come home after summer break talking about how they learned about Horcruxes in DADA class. I would imagine that if Grindelwald did have a Horcrux and Dumbledore would've had to go and play hero and destroy it that would make Dumbledore even stricter on the subject, though.

It is possible that Grindelwald did have one Horcrux, although I'm just the optimistic type, you know. We know that Voldemort was the first to make more than one so he definitely didn't have more than that, yet I can't help but wonder why he was the first. It seems as though it would've been kind of difficult for Grindelwald to find out specifically how to make them, though.

I would also like to remark that I don't think it's very easy to spot when a guy has made a Horcrux. I think that Tom's appearance diminished partially due to the Horcruxes and mostly because of the other experiments he was doing. When you just have one Horcrux I would imagine that you aren't really walking around with a big stamp on your face that says, "I HAVE A HORCRUX!"


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Last edited by blessed_dragon; December 27th, 2005 at 8:39 am.
  #8  
Old December 27th, 2005, 12:15 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Actually, I think that if someone makes one horcrux, they get the 'waxy sheen' to their skin and 'red glint' in their eyes- maybe permanently or just when emotions are running high . . .
When they've made more than 1 Horcrux, it becomes mopre obvious that they've dabbled in dark magic- I mean, tearing you soul apart must affect your appearance . . .


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and I always get confused, because in supermarkets they turn the lights off when they want you to leave, but in discos they turn them on.
and it's always sad to go, but it's never that sad, because there's only so many places you're guaranteed of getting a hug when you leave.
and then on the way home, it always seems like a good idea to go paddling in the fountain, and that's because it IS a good idea.
and we're just like, how rousseau depicts man in the state of nature:
we're undeveloped, we're ignorant, we're stupid, but we're happy

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  #9  
Old December 27th, 2005, 1:28 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

** is a great as well as a good wizard . He will never kill anyone. So i think that ** did not kill Grindlewald after he defeated him in duel. Instead he convverted Grindlewald into something good - A Pheonix - Fawkes( Remember he was a Transfiguration Pro.)


  #10  
Old December 27th, 2005, 5:27 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

i think horccruxes are a much bigger deal than we think them to be. there have to be some repercussions (sp?) of splitting your soul that we aren't (or can't) realize. it just seems like witches and wizards value their souls much more than we can.


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  #11  
Old December 27th, 2005, 6:16 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris3
** is a great as well as a good wizard . He will never kill anyone. So i think that ** did not kill Grindlewald after he defeated him in duel. Instead he convverted Grindlewald into something good - A Pheonix - Fawkes( Remember he was a Transfiguration Pro.)
There is a difference in killing someone in cold blood and killing them in a war or in self defense though. So in that regard, I do think Dumbledore probably did actually kill Grindelwald because it seemed to me like he was a Dark Wizard, probably trying to usurp power to rule over the Wizarding World much like Voldemort. I can't imagine there wouldn't have been a war against Grindelwald like there is a war against Voldemort. Thus I could see Dumbledore as the leading general, if you will, against Grindelwald. And so I could see the two generals of both sides squaring off, and Dumbledore killing Grindelwald in combat, similar to when Dumbledore was dueling Voldemort. So I do think that Dumbledore actually killed Grindelwald but the difference is that he didn't kill him in cold blood or with negative intentions- he likely killed Grindelwald in self-defense and in the defense of the wizarding world's way of life.


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  #12  
Old December 27th, 2005, 8:45 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

No, I don't think Dumbledore killed him, but he must have done something definitive


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and I always get confused, because in supermarkets they turn the lights off when they want you to leave, but in discos they turn them on.
and it's always sad to go, but it's never that sad, because there's only so many places you're guaranteed of getting a hug when you leave.
and then on the way home, it always seems like a good idea to go paddling in the fountain, and that's because it IS a good idea.
and we're just like, how rousseau depicts man in the state of nature:
we're undeveloped, we're ignorant, we're stupid, but we're happy

[los campesinos]
  #13  
Old December 27th, 2005, 8:58 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Quote:
Actually, I think that if someone makes one horcrux, they get the 'waxy sheen' to their skin and 'red glint' in their eyes- maybe permanently or just when emotions are running high . . .
When they've made more than 1 Horcrux, it becomes mopre obvious that they've dabbled in dark magic- I mean, tearing you soul apart must affect your appearance . . .
I'm still not sure if that's the case. Voldemort was gone for years and he himself has said that he's dabbled in a lot of things. By the time that Voldemort came to Dumbledore he had also already made quite a few Horcruxes. Let's also bring in the fact that Tom had made the Horcrux diary in his sixth year. If there was a definite physical change at that time (ie red glint in the eyes, waxy skin) which would signal the making of a Horcrux wouldn't Dumbledore have recognized it? I'm sure that the making of a Horcrux must influence you somehow but I'm not sure if it would be a physical change.

Quote:
There is a difference in killing someone in cold blood and killing them in a war or in self defense though. So in that regard, I do think Dumbledore probably did actually kill Grindelwald because it seemed to me like he was a Dark Wizard, probably trying to usurp power to rule over the Wizarding World much like Voldemort.
I don't know if Dumbledore killed Grindelwald. Murder is murder and according to Slughorn when you kill (no matter the situation), you split the soul. Dumbledore is noble and he knows that there are "worse things than death". I think Dumbledore did something else to Grindelwald.


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Last edited by blessed_dragon; December 27th, 2005 at 9:01 pm.
  #14  
Old December 28th, 2005, 5:27 am
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

I think he did not kill Grindelwald, because he thinks killing is not the right thing to do, but the easy way. For Dumbledore, death is not the worst thing. And, he didn't even try to kill Voldemort at the Ministry of Magic. I wonder if he could perform an Avada Kedavra course, because if you want to do it you have to mean it.


  #15  
Old December 28th, 2005, 6:16 am
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

I believe the spell Dumbledore used on Grindelwald is the same spell he was trying to use on Voldemort in the Ministry which Voldemort blocked with his shield.

I think there is a spell that can "take the magic out" of a wizard/witch and that is the spell Dumbledore has mastered.


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  #16  
Old December 28th, 2005, 3:23 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed_dragon
I'm still not sure if that's the case. Voldemort was gone for years and he himself has said that he's dabbled in a lot of things. By the time that Voldemort came to Dumbledore he had also already made quite a few Horcruxes. Let's also bring in the fact that Tom had made the Horcrux diary in his sixth year. If there was a definite physical change at that time (ie red glint in the eyes, waxy skin) which would signal the making of a Horcrux wouldn't Dumbledore have recognized it? I'm sure that the making of a Horcrux must influence you somehow but I'm not sure if it would be a physical change..
Well, one horcrux would make a tiny change, and Dumbledore wwould have had suspicions, but i dont think Tom made a horcrux in his 6th year: he could easily have made it later; and where did he keep it? -not on his person





Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed_dragon
I don't know if Dumbledore killed Grindelwald. Murder is murder and according to Slughorn when you kill (no matter the situation), you split the soul. Dumbledore is noble and he knows that there are "worse things than death". I think Dumbledore did something else to Grindelwald
I totally agree- Dumbledore would not feel the hatred to kill, but more likely pity


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and I always get confused, because in supermarkets they turn the lights off when they want you to leave, but in discos they turn them on.
and it's always sad to go, but it's never that sad, because there's only so many places you're guaranteed of getting a hug when you leave.
and then on the way home, it always seems like a good idea to go paddling in the fountain, and that's because it IS a good idea.
and we're just like, how rousseau depicts man in the state of nature:
we're undeveloped, we're ignorant, we're stupid, but we're happy

[los campesinos]

Last edited by karatekid; December 28th, 2005 at 3:27 pm.
  #17  
Old December 28th, 2005, 5:28 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

TheAugustus--

Once again I like the way you are thinking. The idea that Dumbledore learned how to disarm a bad wizard--by stripping him or her of magical powers--is a good one.

But I don't agree that Fawkes was Grindelwald. Indeed, since JKR has said that the defeat of Grindelwald in 1945 was an intentional parallel to the end of World War II, I think that it is not far-fetched to consider that Grindelwald, once he had lost his powers, took Hitler's way out. Death rather than surrender. And, in turn, this could have a profound influence on the plot of Book 7.


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  #18  
Old December 28th, 2005, 9:41 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

Okay, I'm going to revise my theory on Horcruxes. After discussing this with my father, I have come to the conclusion that the making of one Horcrux only made a small change in Tom, one that a person wouldn't notice unless they were paying a lot of attention, and this change in Tom was the red glint in his eyes whenever he was feeling a strong emotion. This would back up my belief that nobody could look at Tom and just immediately believe that he had made a Horcrux. It was only after making more Horcruxes that his physical appearance began to change and yet I don't think it was only that which led to the permanent blood-shot look of his eyes and waxy colored skin when he went to Dumbledore for the DADA position.

Quote:
but i dont think Tom made a horcrux in his 6th year: he could easily have made it later;
Chamber of Secrets ring a bell? He made the diary when he was sixteen and the diary is a Horcrux, meaning that he had already killed and made a it by the time he was sixteen-years-old. The fact that Tom said that it had preserved his sixteen-year-old self in it means that he had to have made the Horcrux when he was that age.

Quote:
"...I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work."

Quote:
I believe the spell Dumbledore used on Grindelwald is the same spell he was trying to use on Voldemort in the Ministry which Voldemort blocked with his shield.

I think there is a spell that can "take the magic out" of a wizard/witch and that is the spell Dumbledore has mastered.
This is a very likely option. We know that Dumbledore wouldn't use the Killing Curse on Grindelwald either because he can't or because he just won't and Dumbledore wouldn't just leave a wizard like that run amok. Not to mention that getting a Dementor to kiss Grindelwald is strictly out of the question.

As for Grindelwald being Fawkes, it's a good idea, but I think it's false.


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Old December 28th, 2005, 10:20 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

I don't think Dumbledore killed Grindelwald but did a spell that made him disappear from the face of the earth.


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  #20  
Old December 29th, 2005, 1:58 pm
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Re: Grindlewald & Dumbledore's Past v2

I agree with the people who say that Dumbledore did not kill Grindelwald.

Here's yet another possibility: Voldemort got the information on how to create a Horcrux from Grindelwald and then killed him after he was defeated. Sounds a bit farfetched, but then again, it sounds just like Voldemort.


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