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Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?



 
 
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  #61  
Old September 9th, 2006, 3:17 pm
Horcrux_Hater  Undisclosed.gif Horcrux_Hater is offline
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Snape told Voldemort the prophecy - I do not doubt it.
You're now suggesting that Snape wasn't stupid enough to tell Voldemort but he is stupid enough to tell the Malfoy's. Surely if he wants to protect this child he needs to sit on this information.
I really don't see Dumbledore turning Snape away if he told Voldemort the prophecy but saying there, there you weren't to know. If he told the Malfoy's who then told Voldemort.



Last edited by Horcrux_Hater; September 9th, 2006 at 3:21 pm.
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  #62  
Old September 9th, 2006, 5:23 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

I think it is possible that both recollections we have heard from the night the prophecy was made are true. Snape very well could have been caught evesdropping half way through the prophecy. Then a confrontation ensues between him and whoever caught him, ending with the two of them barging into the room at the end of the prophecy to tell Dumbledore what had happened.

It seems to me that when a prophecy is made, at least the one made in PoA, the person is in a sort of trance and has no recollection of what occured when it is over. In that case, no modification or wiping of Professor Trewlany's memory was needed. All she remembers is the beginning of the interview, which wasn't going so well, and the end, when they were interrupted by Snape.

I definately don't think that any implanted memories are involved. There really just isn't any reason for that.


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  #63  
Old September 13th, 2006, 6:24 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latisha View Post
Okay, just so that you understand or we understand what each other's saying. The theory goes that DD dreamt up the whole prophecy and implanted it into Trelawney's head so that he could trap LV by forcing LV's hand.

Now, in order to save someone that you have purposely put in danger, but letting others die as a result of your plan, in hope of trapping someone, to me is just completely morally wrong. Which in my opinion is completely uncharacteristic of Dumbledore.
There has been either a misunderstanding of my original post or there is confusion with another thread. I posted earlier

Quote:
Originally Posted by irmapince View Post
I should clarify, I believe that the prophecy Trelawney gave at the Hog's Head, the prophecy that was kept in the Hall of Prophecy, and the prophecy Dumbledore showed Harry at the end of HBP are all the same prophecy and is the true and accurate prophecy. The prophecy Trelawney "remembers" in the memory implanted by Dumbledore is false so that if anyone used Legilligency or put Trelawney's memory in a Pensive they would see a false prophecy, thus protecting the real one.

My main concern is that it was not Snape who overheard the prophecy half and then gave it to Voldemort. The act of giving the prophecy to Voldemort it so loathsome that no matter what Snape was thinking Dumbledore could never respect Snape the way he does nor let him teach at Hogwarts.
So basically the Prophecy is real, was really given by Trelawney, and was stored in the Hall of Prophecy. Dumbledore put a "fake" prophecy in the false memory he created for Trelawney and, more importantly, made Snape the eavesdropper in Trelawney's false memory while the real and actual eavesdropper and the person who gave the Prophecy half to Voldemort was Mudungus, the original suspect.

There is a completely different thread that contends Dumbledore made up the Prophecy.


  #64  
Old September 13th, 2006, 7:25 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irmapince
There has been either a misunderstanding of my original post or there is confusion with another thread. I posted earlier
You were quoting me regarding a comment I made in regard to a theory, which is to say is completely different from your own. I was not referring to your theory, but to the theory inwhich I was originally referring to, not your own. Which is why there is a mix up. I'm debating one theory and it seems that you are using your own theory to debate my rebuttal, which put together makes no sense at all.

I can't remember whose theory, only that I was responding to it on this thread, not any other.


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  #65  
Old September 13th, 2006, 7:29 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Thanks for the clarification!


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Old September 13th, 2006, 8:11 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irmapince View Post
Thanks for the clarification!
Not a worry, I thought it might be something like that


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  #67  
Old September 13th, 2006, 1:59 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irmapince View Post
There has been either a misunderstanding of my original post or there is confusion with another thread. I posted earlier

So basically the Prophecy is real, was really given by Trelawney, and was stored in the Hall of Prophecy. Dumbledore put a "fake" prophecy in the false memory he created for Trelawney and, more importantly, made Snape the eavesdropper in Trelawney's false memory while the real and actual eavesdropper and the person who gave the Prophecy half to Voldemort was Mudungus, the original suspect.

There is a completely different thread that contends Dumbledore made up the Prophecy.
"Dumbledore put a "fake" prophecy in the false memory? You seem to have forgotton a rather important fact - Trelawney doesn't remember her prophecies.
Now if you said Dumbledore put a Memory Charm on her so she forgets her prophecies - that I could believe.


  #68  
Old September 13th, 2006, 8:27 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux_Hater View Post
"Dumbledore put a "fake" prophecy in the false memory? You seem to have forgotton a rather important fact - Trelawney doesn't remember her prophecies.
Now if you said Dumbledore put a Memory Charm on her so she forgets her prophecies - that I could believe.
Well then Dumbledore had to preempt a prophecy. Trelawney had no idea she had just given a prophecy after Harry returned to her room in PoA. It's established that she simply doesn't know when she gives a prophecy, it's part of the humor. She's so obsessed with appearing like a viable seer yet she has no memory of the two very important prophecies she's produced.


  #69  
Old September 15th, 2006, 12:50 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Not necesserily.
If Dumbledore is able to find the specific part of her memory that deals with her prophecies, she won't remember them.
It might even be that Dumbledore put a memory charm on her so she forgot the prophecy she just told him and it unknowingly affected future prophecies.
But I find it hard to believe anyone other then Snape delivered that prophecy to Voldemort.


  #70  
Old September 15th, 2006, 9:16 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Keep in mind that the only real reason Trelawney is at Hogwarts, and the only real reason the subject of Divination exists, is to protect Trelawney from Voldemort. Dumbledore had said on multiple occasions that he thought Divination is total ** (an intriguing Muggle paralell?)

Also remember, Trelawney only remembered having what she thought was a good interview, being fairly light-headed that night, and being interrupted by Snape. Dumbledore says she is unaware of the fact that she made the prophecy.

I don't think it was necessarily a false memory. It was merely the fact that Trelawney is in a trance (just like when she made the prophecy about Wormtail) and therefore was unable to remember much. Dumbledore may have told her that her interview went very well, but the truth was he would not have hired her at all had she not made the prophecy (Dumbledore's own words). This was a lie intended to make her further forget the prophecy.


  #71  
Old September 16th, 2006, 3:29 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Ah I seem to have confused you with this though I may be wrong.
This theory ultimately revolves around the Harry inspired belief that Irmapince can not accept the Dumbledore is so much of an *** that he would employ Snape as a teacher of children if he provided information that provoked Voldemort to attempt to murder a baby.
I admit I have trouble with this myself but also have difficulty making the rest of the theory work.
Tralawney's mind set is not evidence of the main memory it is Dumbledore's unwaving trust of someone who inspired Voldemort to try to murder a baby and basically wreaked the lives of two children - that's the theory.


  #72  
Old September 16th, 2006, 3:42 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Ok the problem i have with this theory is that Dumbledore said somewere, i think it was the first book, that he would never lie to harry, but maybe just not tell him things. That makes me think that Dumbledore wouldn't have gone out of his way to decieve harry in such a roundabout manner. It would be totally against his values. Also, I think Trelawney didn't actually remember what she was saying but remembered not knowing what was going on sort of and then seeing snape.


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  #73  
Old September 16th, 2006, 3:55 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux_Hater View Post
Ah I seem to have confused you with this though I may be wrong.
This theory ultimately revolves around the Harry inspired belief that Irmapince can not accept the Dumbledore is so much of an *** that he would employ Snape as a teacher of children if he provided information that provoked Voldemort to attempt to murder a baby.
I admit I have trouble with this myself but also have difficulty making the rest of the theory work.
Tralawney's mind set is not evidence of the main memory it is Dumbledore's unwaving trust of someone who inspired Voldemort to try to murder a baby and basically wreaked the lives of two children - that's the theory.
So, Dumbledore implanted a false memory of a prophecy in Trelawney's mind, and then performed a memory charm on her so she would forget the false memory? I'd rather just stick with "Dumbledore was wrong to employ Snape unless either A) he knew something really big that we don't or B) he had no choice." Snape's employment might just have been the price of a spy in Voldemort's confidence.

I'm just saying, it is entirely possible Snape really didn't know what to make of the prophecy. Snape was on the wrong side, but he didn't murder the Potters, and he has plausible deniability. If I were him, I would not agree to be the object of a false memory implicating me in treachery, but I would be honest about my involvement if I could use it to protect myself.


  #74  
Old September 19th, 2006, 2:45 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Goodness me nobody but nobody has ever said, on this thread, that Dumbledore planted a false memory of a prophecy in Trelawney's mind that is NOT the theory. Trelawney doesn't remember her propecies. The theory is that Dumbledore implanted a false memory of who overheard that prophecy.
Me, I was suggesting Dumbledore may also have placed a memory charm on her to make her sugest her REAL prophecy, which (perhaps unknowingly) also affected future REAl prophecies.
In this theory it is taken for granted that Trelawney made a real prophecy it mearly questions whether it was Snape who actually overheard it and took it to Voldemort. While I can easily believe Snape may not have overheard it I find it hard to believe it wasn't him who took it to Voldemort.


  #75  
Old September 19th, 2006, 6:38 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

I have not finished reading the first post and I just had to rely right away. This theory is based upon a false assumption, That Truewlawny can remember her prophecies and that there is any way for the information to be extracted from her memory.
I think it is more likely that Dumbledore fudged the facts a little and that Snape actually heard the whole prophecy. I think that Dumbledore probably tried to erase the memory from Snape. He used Legitimates to see if he he had succeeded and Snape used Occlumency to hide the fact that he had only erased half of the memory.
Dumbledore would not have risked messing with Trulawney's head as it could have permanently damaged her, as we have seen with Bertha, and made he unable to receive any more prophecies.


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Old September 20th, 2006, 2:32 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux Hater
Goodness me nobody but nobody has ever said, on this thread, that Dumbledore planted a false memory of a prophecy in Trelawney's mind that is NOT the theory.
Ah, I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but your actually wrong. Here's the post and it's post N#49 on September 4th, 2006, 12:24 pm. I've copied and pasted it here. But just in case you think I'm lying

Quote:
Originally Posted by DA DA
I believe that the memory that Trelawney relates to Harry is planted.

Probably put there by Dumbledore, so as to save her should she be in Voldemort's hands. We could ask how would she be accessable to Voldemort as we learn from Trelawney that she lives at Hogwarts(RE: fiasco with TOADY). Some posts have said that Trelawney was the actual target of the DE infiltration. Logical if he couldn't have the record from MoM.

I think we must remember that Trelawney was "upset at the hiring of Ferenze, something Trelawney tried hard to badger Dumbledore about all year.
In the books we are told that Dumbledore hired her knowing that he probably saved her. From hunger and a bad life or Voldemort?

In the sorry state that she was in, in HBP, it would be prudent to safeguard against the possibility that she would get up and leave.
By the way I cannot recall Her present at the funeral. Anyone Know?

I'm a believer that Dumbledore dreamt the whole thing up as a means to force Voldemort's hand and make him more predictable.


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  #77  
Old September 20th, 2006, 1:45 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

No, no, no.
The lines you have highlighted say two different things, the first one that Dumbledore planted a false memory in Trelawney's mind that she the related to Harry.
That memory is of Professor Snape being dragged into her room at the Hog's Head after her interview with Dumbledore - that memory does NOT include her recollection of making a prophecy.
The second line relates to the theory that Trelawney never even made a prophecy and that Dumbledore just made in up which seems unlikely because apart from all the pain it's caused she made a very similar second one which Harry witnessed - it still does not say Dumbledore planted that prophecy he made up in Trelawney's mind because he didn't.
No body here is actually assuming Trelawney can remember her prophecies either except those that misundrstand the theory.
But I admit there is perhaps a speculative suggestion that the memory of the incident may be buried deep in her mind.


  #78  
Old September 20th, 2006, 10:50 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Your contradicting yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux Hater
Goodness me nobody but nobody has ever said, on this thread, that Dumbledore planted a false memory of a prophecy in Trelawney's mind that is NOT the theory.
I pointed out that you were wrong, inwhich you replied that it was I that was mistaken. Here is your reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux Hater
No, no, no.
The lines you have highlighted say two different things, the first one that Dumbledore planted a false memory in Trelawney's mind that she the related to Harry.
That memory is of Professor Snape being dragged into her room at the Hog's Head after her interview with Dumbledore - that memory does NOT include her recollection of making a prophecy.
The second line relates to the theory that Trelawney never even made a prophecy and that Dumbledore just made in up which seems unlikely because apart from all the pain it's caused she made a very similar second one which Harry witnessed - it still does not say Dumbledore planted that prophecy he made up in Trelawney's mind because he didn't.
No body here is actually assuming Trelawney can remember her prophecies either except those that misundrstand the theory.
But I admit there is perhaps a speculative suggestion that the memory of the incident may be buried deep in her mind
You are basically agreeing with me that someone on this thread has posted that Dumbledore planted a false memory in Trelawney's mind, contradicting your statement which I was replying to.


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Last edited by Latisha; September 20th, 2006 at 10:52 pm. Reason: misspelt a word
  #79  
Old September 21st, 2006, 2:57 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

I think we're misunderstanding each other completely.
Im am NOT arguing that someone has said that a false memory has been implanted in Trelawney's for that is the nature of the theory.
What I am arguing about is the NATURE of that false memory.
One idea says the nature of that memory is that Tralawney recieved a false memory of Snape entering the room after she made the prophecy (not that she remembers that prophecy), while the other nature is that she recieved a false memory of the actual prophecy that she made.
The latter is nonsence nobody is arguing that here but seem to be arguing against it when it has never been suggested.


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Old September 21st, 2006, 5:48 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Ahem ahem

Less of the finger pointing guys and more debating the topic at hand


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