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Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?



 
 
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  #81  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 7:37 am
irmapince  Female.gif irmapince is offline
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Sorry if I have been unclear. I believe that Trelawney’s memory of the Prophecy night is implanted by Dumbledore and in the false memory DD has made Snape the eavesdropper when it really was Mundugnus (who then gave the Prophecy half to Voldemort) and DD changed the Prophecy in Trelawney’s memory just incase Voldemort ever got a hold of Trelawney and extracted her memory.

Dumbledore wants to insure that Voldemort never gets the whole prophecy. Even though Trelawney does not remember the Prophecy, if Voldemort ever got a hold of her Voldemort could extract her memory and put it in a Pensive. We know that Voldemort is an expert in dealing with memories, as is seen with his altering of Morfin’s and Hepzibah Smith’s Elf’s (Hokey’s) memory, so he could easily extract the memory of the Prophecy night from Trelawney. Then Voldemort could put that memory in a Pensive and wander about it, just as Harry wanders about Snape’s worst memory, and see Trelawney give the Prophecy, even if Trelawney has no memory herself of giving the Prophecy. The ability to see things in a memory of which the original person is unaware is evident when Harry is in Snape’s worst memory. Harry is able to see the Marauders discuss their O.W.L.S. even though Snape has no actual memory of that conversation since Snape never saw it directly. Similarly, Voldemort could go through Trelawney’s memory in a Pensive and see her give the Prophecy even if Trelawney has no memory of giving the Prophecy. For this reason DD alters the Prophecy in Trelawney’s memory so that if Voldemort ever got a hold of her and extracted her memory of the Prophecy night V would see a fake Prophecy and not the real one.

Once DD started to alter Trelawney’s memory, he would have also changed to identity of the eavesdropper to Snape, so that if Trelawney was ever kidnapped by a less skilled Wizard than Voldemort and Trelawney blurted out that Snape was the eavesdropper, that DE would go hunting after Snape. Snape would both be better able to defend himself from any DE than Mundungus (not to mention Dung would snap like twig if questioned and give the Prophecy half) and Snape would report back to DD who kidnapped Trelawney (since the person coming after Snape would be the kidnapper) and then DD can rescue Trelawney.


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  #82  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 3:54 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

I see...
In fact no I don't, goodness me you're really confusing things, I can follow this up until the point where Mundungus hears the prophecy but that's it.
After that my belief somewhat collapses.


  #83  
Old September 29th, 2006, 10:46 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux_Hater View Post
I see...
In fact no I don't, goodness me you're really confusing things, I can follow this up until the point where Mundungus hears the prophecy but that's it.
After that my belief somewhat collapses.
Hey we agree


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  #84  
Old September 30th, 2006, 3:45 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Yes I've written my arguments for and against this in my editorial that may never see the light of day.
So I'm not sure how far we really agree.


  #85  
Old September 30th, 2006, 9:40 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

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Originally Posted by irmapince View Post
Sorry if I have been unclear. I believe that Trelawney’s memory of the Prophecy night is implanted by Dumbledore and in the false memory DD has made Snape the eavesdropper when it really was Mundugnus (who then gave the Prophecy half to Voldemort) and DD changed the Prophecy in Trelawney’s memory just incase Voldemort ever got a hold of Trelawney and extracted her memory.

Dumbledore wants to insure that Voldemort never gets the whole prophecy. Even though Trelawney does not remember the Prophecy, if Voldemort ever got a hold of her Voldemort could extract her memory and put it in a Pensive. We know that Voldemort is an expert in dealing with memories, as is seen with his altering of Morfin’s and Hepzibah Smith’s Elf’s (Hokey’s) memory, so he could easily extract the memory of the Prophecy night from Trelawney. Then Voldemort could put that memory in a Pensive and wander about it, just as Harry wanders about Snape’s worst memory, and see Trelawney give the Prophecy, even if Trelawney has no memory herself of giving the Prophecy. The ability to see things in a memory of which the original person is unaware is evident when Harry is in Snape’s worst memory. Harry is able to see the Marauders discuss their O.W.L.S. even though Snape has no actual memory of that conversation since Snape never saw it directly. Similarly, Voldemort could go through Trelawney’s memory in a Pensive and see her give the Prophecy even if Trelawney has no memory of giving the Prophecy. For this reason DD alters the Prophecy in Trelawney’s memory so that if Voldemort ever got a hold of her and extracted her memory of the Prophecy night V would see a fake Prophecy and not the real one.

Once DD started to alter Trelawney’s memory, he would have also changed to identity of the eavesdropper to Snape, so that if Trelawney was ever kidnapped by a less skilled Wizard than Voldemort and Trelawney blurted out that Snape was the eavesdropper, that DE would go hunting after Snape. Snape would both be better able to defend himself from any DE than Mundungus (not to mention Dung would snap like twig if questioned and give the Prophecy half) and Snape would report back to DD who kidnapped Trelawney (since the person coming after Snape would be the kidnapper) and then DD can rescue Trelawney.
So wait, Mundungus gave up half the prophecy, but Dumbledore altered Trelawney's memory so Mundungus wouldn't give up what he had heard? I'm afraid I don't follow. If Voldemort had already heard a portion of the prophecy from Mundungus, why would Death Eaters hunt him for the rest? Surely Voldemort of all wizards would know whether he had the whole thing or not.

To be honest I think the explanation in the book does a much better job of explaining Dumbledore's and Trelawney's (not to mention Snape's) actions. Dumbledore tells Harry it was Snape in no uncertain terms ("He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy." US 549). What possible reason would Dumbledore have to lie to Harry? Harry is the boy he's trusted with much more sensitive information, like the existence and nature of Voldemort's Horcruxes. That is the question you really have to answer here.


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Old September 30th, 2006, 10:50 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux_Hater View Post
Yes I've written my arguments for and against this in my editorial that may never see the light of day.
So I'm not sure how far we really agree.
I'm not complaining, that will suit me fine


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  #87  
Old October 2nd, 2006, 3:15 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Err which part?


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Old October 2nd, 2006, 10:37 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux_Hater View Post
Err which part?
The '<snip>we really agree.' part A little trick I learnt from a fellow poster, if you cut and paste, the sentence brings on a whole new different meaning


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  #89  
Old October 2nd, 2006, 11:27 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

As Liselle already said, more debating the matter at hand would be great.


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Old October 3rd, 2006, 3:27 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Thank you for this theory irmpance. I have read your original post and I think, all consecutive replys. This theory to me makes a lot of sense to the point that Trelawney's memory was changed to protect Dung and put the blame on Snape. This would be of help to Snape to gain the trust of Voldemort, which I think is the point. I think you have a good case that Dung was involved.

I don't think her memory of the prophesy has been altered. The "Order" went to a lot of trouble to protect the one in the DoM. That would lead me to believe it was true. So why alter her memory of the prophesy? If she gets captured by Voldemort, her life is over as it was for Bertha Jorkins. IF Voldemort ever hears the rest of this prophesy, will that change how he deals with Harry? In the battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort in the DoM, Voldemort still mocks Dumbledore that "Love" is a force to be reckoned with. I think he believes he has conquered the protection of Lily's sacrifice and views Harry as weak without Dumbledore's protection. The fact that the wands do priori incantum, that he cannot remain in Harry's thoughts should give him pause in how to deal with Harry, I don't think that it has.

As far as Regulus's life being the one protected, I would love if this were the case...We have three issues to resolve.

1. The inheritance of #12 Grimwald.
2. Dumbledore not knowing that the potion and Horcrux were switched out in the cave if R.A.B. is Regulus.
3. The tapestry in # 12 Grimwald.

Can all 3 be explained?


  #91  
Old October 3rd, 2006, 9:41 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruse View Post
.

I don't think her memory of the prophesy has been altered. The "Order" went to a lot of trouble to protect the one in the DoM. That would lead me to believe it was true. So why alter her memory of the prophesy? If she gets captured by Voldemort, her life is over as it was for Bertha Jorkins. IF Voldemort ever hears the rest of this prophesy, will that change how he deals with Harry? In the battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort in the DoM, Voldemort still mocks Dumbledore that "Love" is a force to be reckoned with. I think he believes he has conquered the protection of Lily's sacrifice and views Harry as weak without Dumbledore's protection. The fact that the wands do priori incantum, that he cannot remain in Harry's thoughts should give him pause in how to deal with Harry, I don't think that it has.
Although Harry identified Trelawney's image as it rose from the sphere.

The prophecy that was in the MoM smashed and wasn't heard by anyone.

Here we Have no evidence that the record was true to what Dumbledore tells Harry.

And given that Harry was supposed to have learned Occlumency, thereby noy being fooled into arriving at the MoM.

The record was supposed to fall into the hands of Voldemort, Dumbledore wouldn't have left such sesitve information lying about in the hands of the ever incompedent MoM.

As the outcome of the fiasco at the MoM was to the advantage of the comunity as a whole. Dumbledore chose another means to transfer the prophecy( albeit, doctored to suit his needs).

It is the memory that Trelawney recounts to Harry, that Dumbledore wants Voldemort to hear.

I'm of the opinion that the attack on Hogwarts was a ruse to cover up the capture of Trelawney.

Draco was never expected to succeed, just occupy Dumbledore.

But Dumbledore has always been a step ahead, being as the prophecy is just a means to force Voldemort into becoming predictable.


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  #92  
Old October 3rd, 2006, 8:38 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

DA DA I think you have many valid points... as the plot could take any # of turns.

Could you tell me what you think Draco's task was? I'm confused. It is my understanding that he has to finish Dumbledore. But whatever his task, if he didn't finish it, Snape would be forced to because of the "Unbreakable Vow." What I really think we need to remember is we should be able to figure this out based only by reading the books. There shouldn't be so many misleading directions that everything we thought we knew has to be re-explained. I don't want to get off track so I apologise if I have (because I have.) Thanks


  #93  
Old October 4th, 2006, 3:39 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruse View Post
Thank you for this theory irmpance. I have read your original post and I think, all consecutive replys. This theory to me makes a lot of sense to the point that Trelawney's memory was changed to protect Dung and put the blame on Snape. This would be of help to Snape to gain the trust of Voldemort, which I think is the point. I think you have a good case that Dung was involved.

I don't think her memory of the prophesy has been altered. The "Order" went to a lot of trouble to protect the one in the DoM. That would lead me to believe it was true. So why alter her memory of the prophesy? If she gets captured by Voldemort, her life is over as it was for Bertha Jorkins. IF Voldemort ever hears the rest of this prophesy, will that change how he deals with Harry? In the battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort in the DoM, Voldemort still mocks Dumbledore that "Love" is a force to be reckoned with. I think he believes he has conquered the protection of Lily's sacrifice and views Harry as weak without Dumbledore's protection. The fact that the wands do priori incantum, that he cannot remain in Harry's thoughts should give him pause in how to deal with Harry, I don't think that it has.

As far as Regulus's life being the one protected, I would love if this were the case...We have three issues to resolve.

1. The inheritance of #12 Grimwald.
2. Dumbledore not knowing that the potion and Horcrux were switched out in the cave if R.A.B. is Regulus.
3. The tapestry in # 12 Grimwald.

Can all 3 be explained?
I think only the first really needs explaining - Dumbledore made it very clear to Harry he could only inherit because Regulus was dead.


  #94  
Old October 4th, 2006, 7:14 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruse View Post
DA DA I think you have many valid points... as the plot could take any # of turns.

Could you tell me what you think Draco's task was? I'm confused. It is my understanding that he has to finish Dumbledore. But whatever his task, if he didn't finish it, Snape would be forced to because of the "Unbreakable Vow." What I really think we need to remember is we should be able to figure this out based only by reading the books. There shouldn't be so many misleading directions that everything we thought we knew has to be re-explained. I don't want to get off track so I apologise if I have (because I have.) Thanks

Ahem back on topic please! We're not talking about Snape or the unbreakeable vow or Draco Malfoy. There are plenty of threads on those subjects where this conversation could be carried out.


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  #95  
Old October 4th, 2006, 10:42 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
What possible reason would Dumbledore have to lie to Harry? .
I've never quoted myself, haha, but I still consider this to be one of the more important questions this thread must answer. If Dumbledore planted memories in Trelawney's mind, why wouldn't he level with Harry during their rather heated confrontation? As it is, Dumbledore's responses to Harry tell me he that at most he gave Trelawney a modified version of what really happened so she wouldn't realize she had lost any time. And even then, she could have found out it was Snape years later. Any thoughts?


  #96  
Old October 6th, 2006, 8:44 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
So wait, Mundungus gave up half the prophecy, but Dumbledore altered Trelawney's memory so Mundungus wouldn't give up what he had heard? I'm afraid I don't follow. If Voldemort had already heard a portion of the prophecy from Mundungus, why would Death Eaters hunt him for the rest? Surely Voldemort of all wizards would know whether he had the whole thing or not.

To be honest I think the explanation in the book does a much better job of explaining Dumbledore's and Trelawney's (not to mention Snape's) actions. Dumbledore tells Harry it was Snape in no uncertain terms ("He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy." US 549). What possible reason would Dumbledore have to lie to Harry? Harry is the boy he's trusted with much more sensitive information, like the existence and nature of Voldemort's Horcruxes. That is the question you really have to answer here.
Dung only heard half the Prophecy before he got kicked out so he could only give Voldemort half the Prophecy.

Dumbledore would lie to Harry to protect the life of others, such as Snape who would be toast if V ever found out he did not really kill Regulus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruse View Post
Thank you for this theory irmpance. I have read your original post and I think, all consecutive replys. This theory to me makes a lot of sense to the point that Trelawney's memory was changed to protect Dung and put the blame on Snape. This would be of help to Snape to gain the trust of Voldemort, which I think is the point. I think you have a good case that Dung was involved.

I don't think her memory of the prophesy has been altered. The "Order" went to a lot of trouble to protect the one in the DoM. That would lead me to believe it was true. So why alter her memory of the prophesy? If she gets captured by Voldemort, her life is over as it was for Bertha Jorkins. IF Voldemort ever hears the rest of this prophesy, will that change how he deals with Harry? In the battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort in the DoM, Voldemort still mocks Dumbledore that "Love" is a force to be reckoned with. I think he believes he has conquered the protection of Lily's sacrifice and views Harry as weak without Dumbledore's protection. The fact that the wands do priori incantum, that he cannot remain in Harry's thoughts should give him pause in how to deal with Harry, I don't think that it has.

As far as Regulus's life being the one protected, I would love if this were the case...We have three issues to resolve.

1. The inheritance of #12 Grimwald.
2. Dumbledore not knowing that the potion and Horcrux were switched out in the cave if R.A.B. is Regulus.
3. The tapestry in # 12 Grimwald.

Can all 3 be explained?
Thank you much for the compliment.

DD alters Trelawney's memory of the Prophecy first because if any DE can extract her memory and go through it, that DE will see a false Prophecy. Second, if Voldemort gets a hold of Trelawney, he will know right away that the memory is false because Snape is the eavesdropper in Trelawney's memory when the real eavesdropper is Dung. Then sadly V will do a Bertha Jenkins on Trelawney. However, I assume V would have done a Bertha on Trelawney anyways because V would have assumed DD planted a false memory to through V off.

As for Regulus
1. He could be "legally" dead. In the real world, when someone dies in a disaster (tsunami, etc) and a body cannot be found, then that person can be declared legally dead and that person's heirs receive the dead person's estate. The same could be the case in the Wizarding World.
2. Who says R.A.B. is Regulus?
3. The tapestry can be done manually, as Mrs.Black blasts off Andromeda. On news of Regulus' "death", Mrs.Black could have entered Regulus' date of death.


  #97  
Old October 6th, 2006, 8:59 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

That still isn't making any sense to me. Voldemort got half the prophecy from Mundungus, but if he ever captures Trelawney he's suddenly going to think it was actually Snape? I mean, the simplest explanation is stil that Trelawney hever had any memory of the prophecy. I'm not trying to be mean, but this theory is extremely convoluted when we have a rather nice explanation already.

Snape overheard it and got thrown out. Trelawney was told after the fact because she had no memory of the time she was giving the prophecy, which is confirmed for us in PoA. Voldemort knows who heard the prophecy and he knows who made the prophecy, and no amount of implanted memories is going to change any of that.

Let me put it this way, if Dung really did overhear the prophecy and Snape took the credit for it (which is funny, since he wasn't working for Dumbledore at the time, so it seems pretty unlikely there was a friendly exchange of information), how does Snape find out what the prophecy said? Because telling Voldemort personally is just about the only way Voldemort would ever think Snape was the one at the Hog's Head. I have a great many more questions, but what I want to know is, what canon evidence supports the answers you provided? I'm not trying to be difficult, but this is History of Magic..



Last edited by canismajoris; October 6th, 2006 at 9:01 am.
  #98  
Old October 6th, 2006, 3:47 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

I repeat myself:

Memory Charms Are Very Annoying,
Memory Charms Are Very Annoying,
Memory Charms Are Very Annoying

If you were saying Voldemort had put a memory charm in someone's mind I'd believe you but Albus "the truth is generally preferable to lies"Dumbledore? That's an awful lot of lies.


  #99  
Old November 4th, 2006, 5:56 am
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
That still isn't making any sense to me. Voldemort got half the prophecy from Mundungus, but if he ever captures Trelawney he's suddenly going to think it was actually Snape? I mean, the simplest explanation is stil that Trelawney hever had any memory of the prophecy. I'm not trying to be mean, but this theory is extremely convoluted when we have a rather nice explanation already.

Snape overheard it and got thrown out. Trelawney was told after the fact because she had no memory of the time she was giving the prophecy, which is confirmed for us in PoA. Voldemort knows who heard the prophecy and he knows who made the prophecy, and no amount of implanted memories is going to change any of that.

Let me put it this way, if Dung really did overhear the prophecy and Snape took the credit for it (which is funny, since he wasn't working for Dumbledore at the time, so it seems pretty unlikely there was a friendly exchange of information), how does Snape find out what the prophecy said? Because telling Voldemort personally is just about the only way Voldemort would ever think Snape was the one at the Hog's Head. I have a great many more questions, but what I want to know is, what canon evidence supports the answers you provided? I'm not trying to be difficult, but this is History of Magic..
Having Snape be the one who overheard the Prophecy in Trelawney’s implanted memory would be for everyone except Voldemort. So that if some third rate DE captures Trelawney and she says that it was Snape who overheard the Prophecy, the third rate DE would go after Snape, who would most likely kill the third rate DE and get Trelawney back, instead of Mundungus who would tell everything he knew in a second.

If Voldemort gets Trelawney, as soon as he sees Snape as the eavesdropper he will know the memory is false. I believe that V would have expected DD to alter Trelawney’s memory since DD is a master with memory as well, so giving a clear indication to V that Trelawney’s memory is implanted through Snape instead of Dung being the eavesdropper would not be a great problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcrux_Hater View Post
If you were saying Voldemort had put a memory charm in someone's mind I'd believe you but Albus "the truth is generally preferable to lies"Dumbledore? That's an awful lot of lies.
DD also say that the truth is a terrible and beautiful thing and must be handled with caution. DD has played with the truth with Harry when he implies that Snape was the bully and James the victim in PS. DD has also played with the truth with Fudge when Sirius escapes in PoA. The truth could be generally preferable to lies, but saving people's lives could be preferable to the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DA_DA View Post
I'm of the opinion that the attack on Hogwarts was a ruse to cover up the capture of Trelawney.

Draco was never expected to succeed, just occupy Dumbledore.
Interesting observation. I'm not sure I agree, but it is a fascinating take on the events in HBP.


  #100  
Old November 4th, 2006, 3:41 pm
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Re: Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

As I recall Dumbledore's last mishandling of the truth resulted in the death of Sirius, which Dumbledore then apologized for. That apology means nothing if he then proceeds to do it again.


 
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